Champions Trophy win and judgements

[TM Riddle]

Logged in PP today and found immature fans targeting Pakistan's CT win calling it fluke etc.
Thats Load of horse dung.
By the same logic India's 1983 wc win was a fluke as well.
Fact is Pakistan played their best cricket in that tournament and won fair and square. How about giving them credit for it instead of crying foul about fluke?
Whats done was done. Move on for God's sake and concentrate on Asia cup now.
Pakistan played like champions in semis and finals of that tournament and won thumping victories which should be appreciated. Period. End of the matter.

PS: This post is targeted towards self hating Pak fans (You know who they are). Learn to appreciate good things in life instead of whining about every little thing every now and then.
Thanks.

 

[the_outsider]

It's nonsense to say that CT17 was a fluke. Teams don't win a 5 match tournament by fluke.

That is never in question. They won the trophy because they were the best team in that tournament.

But there is a difference in being "the best team in CT17" and "being the best team overall". Those are not the same thing and I think a lot of fans seem to get that mixed up.

 

[Savak]

It's nonsense to say that CT17 was a fluke. Teams don't win a 5 match tournament by fluke.

That is never in question. They won the trophy because they were the best team in that tournament.

But there is a difference in being "the best team in CT17" and "being the best team overall". Those are not the same thing and I think a lot of fans seem to get that mixed up.

The CT win was due to the team peaking at the right time which helps with confidence, momentum.

 

[TM Riddle]

The CT win was due to the team peaking at the right time which helps with confidence, momentum.

Ha theek hai. We get it.
You played good cricket and You won. Bas bat khatam.
Now move on FGS!
It's getting nauseating now.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Pakistan in ODIs and West Indies in T20s, under par most of the time but both know how to turn up for big matches. Champs Trophy 2017 was no fluke and Pakistan in England is a serious team, PPers can rest easy because 2019 will be a repeat of 1992. At least after that the CT fluke comments will dry out.

 

[AAli98]

Get over the CT win its nothing but a glorified sunday league cup which has been scrapped!!

Worying thing is HK openers are miles technicaly better than paks top 7 batsman.

 

[Mamoon]

India's 83 World Cup win was also a fluke.

 

[TM Riddle]

India's 83 World Cup win was also a fluke.

Congratulations!

 

[DRsohail]

Everything that Pakistan team wins is a fluke!

 

[KingKhanWC]

You can't fluke a 180 run victory. Any team which wins a final deserves the trophy.

 

[the_outsider]

India's 83 World Cup win was also a fluke.

Precisely. It is probably the greatest heist in cricket history. In 1983, India had absolutely no business beating West Indies twice in a WC and lifting the trophy. That team just played their best ever cricket of their lives in those 3-4 years. India had no business being that good for that brief period back in the 80s.

 

[TM Riddle]

Precisely. It is probably the greatest heist in cricket history. In 1983, India had absolutely no business beating West Indies twice in a WC and lifting the trophy. That team just played their best ever cricket in their lives in those 3-4 years. India had no business being that good for that brief period back in the 80s.

Same Indian team won B&H cup two years later. Was that a fluke as well?

 

[Usman Chadda]

Bari koi gandi waali ho rahi hai aaj

 

[BDfanforever]

It wasnt fluke, but it was one of the greatest “purple patch” you will ever see.

 

[Hawkeye]

Ha theek hai. We get it.
You played good cricket and You won. Bas bat khatam.
Now move on FGS!
It's getting nauseating now.

What you're reading is a reaction to the blind jingoistic fans who had been chest thumping over the CT victory till yesterday. In particular, the media and TV channels were still hyping it up.

I just see it as a compensatory response.

 

[mmkextreme_1]

It wasnt fluke, but it was one of the greatest “purple patch” you will ever see.

Ya Allah aisey ka "purple patch" Pakistan team ko har tournament mei daadiya kero

 

[TM Riddle]

Bari koi gandi waali ho rahi hai aaj

Chadda saheb dil pe na lo.
Thread genuine hai.

 

[the_outsider]

Precisely. It is probably the greatest heist in cricket history. In 1983, India had absolutely no business beating West Indies twice in a WC and lifting the trophy. That team just played their best ever cricket of their lives in those 3-4 years. India had no business being that good for that brief period back in the 80s.

Same Indian team won B&H cup two years later. Was that a fluke as well?
Stop feeding trolls like Mamoo

It was not a fluke. I did not say it was a fluke. But it certainly was a heist. India won the WC, for sure. But they certainly were not the best ODI team in the world during that time. WI was still a better team. Aus was still a better team. But India was the WC winners. You must learn to make the distinction between those two things.

70s WI and 90s-2000s Aus are regarded as the best teams of all time because they not only won many WCs but they won them by being the best team of that era, not just for a tournament or two.

 

[Mp812]

India's 83 World Cup win was also a fluke.

Agreed by most Indians who are from that generation... by even one of team players.

I cannot find it online but there is an old video of Srikanth saying " When Kapil told us we can win against WI, there were muffled laughter in team meeting.... thinking Kapil is kidding...only to realize he was not kidding" . He goes on to say a few players were already making shopping plans after the final..but in order to not make Kapil angry they acted serious in the team meeting" .He goes on to say that the belief that they may win came only after Kapil took Richards catch.

If I can find that video i will add it... it was funny the way Srikant mentions the incident ... in his south indian hindi accent.

The WI proved it was fluke by touring India later that year and winning ODI series 5 -0.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Chadda saheb dil pe na lo.
Thread genuine hai.

Yeah I know. It’s obviously a reaction to some of us bringing it up again and again, usually for banter. I personally don’t mind, as long as the blokes doing it show up when India is not having a great day.

 

[Swashbuckler]

India's 83 World Cup win was also a fluke.

India also beat that great WI team in the group match and a couple of months prior to that in an ODI in WI. All those 3 wins came against a full strength ATG WI team in a space of 2.5 months. Those days WI never dropped ODIs but India offered resistance. Maybe Kapil and co deserve some credit for being a thorn to Lloyd's side. We may well have been rubbish for most of the 80s but in that 2 year span between 1983 and 1985 we were the best ODI outfit in the world, and we backed the WC win with the 1985 World Championship triumph.

 

[Sachin136]

Agreed by most Indians who are from that generation... by even one of team players.

I cannot find it online but there is an old video of Srikanth saying " When Kapil told us we can win against WI, there were muffled laughter in team meeting.... thinking Kapil is kidding...only to realize he was not kidding" . He goes on to say a few players were already making shopping plans after the final..but in order to not make Kapil angry they acted serious in the team meeting" .He goes on to say that the belief that they may win came only after Kapil took Richards catch.

If I can find that video i will add it... it was funny the way Srikant mentions the incident ... in his south indian hindi accent.

The WI proved it was fluke by touring India later that year and winning ODI series 5 -0.

So any match where a weaker team beats a stronger one is a fluke?

 

[Amjid Javed]

As much as i have no love for india, in the 83 world cup india and W.I had played each other once in competition prior to final winning 1 game each. Yes this was a great W.I side and huge favs in final but india were no mugs. Also WC are longer format the CT and harder to win. So pretty poor comparison.

 

[TM Riddle]

Were Sri Lanka's 1996 wc and Pakistan's 1992 wins fluke as well since they weren't best ODI teams of that era?
Some absurd logic in this thread.

 

[Cric_lover4487]

Yaar dil pe na lo. It is just a game at the end of the day. I watched Champions trophy final with my Pakistani roommate, Pakistan played amazing cricket that day. They were clinical and well prepared.They deserved to win. I bought beer and pizza for my pakistani flatmate. Today, India were clearly better team. They were well prepared to tackle Fakhar zaman, Amir and Hasan ali. Bhuvi's clinical accuracy ensured Zaman was given no room to slog and Rohit changed his batting stance to tackle inswing from Amir. My roomate bought pizza and beer today. Its all in good spirit. Cheers!!

 

[Mamoon]

Agreed by most Indians who are from that generation... by even one of team players.

I cannot find it online but there is an old video of Srikanth saying " When Kapil told us we can win against WI, there were muffled laughter in team meeting.... thinking Kapil is kidding...only to realize he was not kidding" . He goes on to say a few players were already making shopping plans after the final..but in order to not make Kapil angry they acted serious in the team meeting" .He goes on to say that the belief that they may win came only after Kapil took Richards catch.

If I can find that video i will add it... it was funny the way Srikant mentions the incident ... in his south indian hindi accent.

The WI proved it was fluke by touring India later that year and winning ODI series 5 -0.

Interesting anecdote. Nature has its ways - West Indies were not meant to win the first three World Cups, and India were lucky to be the beneficiary. However, history is for the triumphant, and calling them flukes will not take away the trophies from India and Pakistan. Nonetheless, it is important to not perspective which a lot of our fans are guilty of.

Our fans' heads were in the clouds because of the Champions Trophy success. They became arrogant and felt invincible - even the reality check in New Zealand was not enough to put their delusions to rest. These fans deserve to be humiliated.

 

[TM Riddle]

Interesting anecdote. Nature has its ways - West Indies were not meant to win the first three World Cups, and India were lucky to be the beneficiary. However, history is for the triumphant, and calling them flukes will not take away the trophies from India and Pakistan. Nonetheless, it is important to not perspective which a lot of our fans are guilty of.

Our fans' heads were in the clouds because of the Champions Trophy success. They became arrogant and felt invincible - even the reality check in New Zealand was not enough to put their delusions to rest. These fans deserve to be humiliated.

Last I checked you were the one trolling them non stop bringing the fluke argument in the debates.
How is it fans' fault when people like you keep tryna shove nonsensical arguments as facts down others throats?

 

[Napa]

Logged in PP today and found immature fans targeting Pakistan's CT win calling it fluke etc.
Thats Load of horse dung.
By the same logic India's 1983 wc win was a fluke as well.
Fact is Pakistan played their best cricket in that tournament and won fair and square. How about giving them credit for it instead of crying foul about fluke?
Whats done was done. Move on for God's sake and concentrate on Asia cup now.
Pakistan played like champions in semis and finals of that tournament and won thumping victories which should be appreciated. Period. End of the matter.

PS: This post is targeted towards self hating Pak fans (You know who they are). Learn to appreciate good things in life instead of whining about every little thing every now and then.
Thanks.

I won't say Pakistan's CT 2017 win was a "fluke" depending upon how you define a "fluke". The probability of Pakistan's win according to the bookies before the game was about 30%. I also thought it was about 30%. And Pakistan won. I am not surprised a 30% event happened, they are supposed to happen about 30% of the time!

The 70% probability event did not happen, but the 30% event did. Is that a "fluke"? I don't think a 30% probability event is a "fluke". I would say a 10% event may be classified as a "fluke".

India certainly suffered from poor selection. The conditions were not right for Jadeja and Ashwin, and dropping Umesh after his performance in the earlier India-Pakistan game was stupid.

 

[Mamoon]

Last I checked you were the one trolling them non stop bringing the fluke argument in the debates.
How is it fans' fault when people like you keep tryna shove nonsensical arguments as facts down others throats?

This is not the right time for you to do bhangra over this. This topic has been beaten to death and I have said everything that I have to say a thousand times. This thread is a few months too late.

I am more interesting in looking forward to the next few games now and how we can bridge the gap between us and India within five days.

 

[mystical man]

Interesting anecdote. Nature has its ways - West Indies were not meant to win the first three World Cups, and India were lucky to be the beneficiary. However, history is for the triumphant, and calling them flukes will not take away the trophies from India and Pakistan. Nonetheless, it is important to not perspective which a lot of our fans are guilty of.

Our fans' heads were in the clouds because of the Champions Trophy success. They became arrogant and felt invincible - even the reality check in New Zealand was not enough to put their delusions to rest. These fans deserve to be humiliated.

Agreed Mamoon but that Indian team played for the love,jazba and passion for the country and it was visible in their fielding along with the overall energy that was exuberated during the entire tournament.

 

[Buffet]

This is not the right time for you to do bhangra over this. This topic has been beaten to death and I have said everything that I have to say a thousand times. This thread is a few months too late.

I am more interesting in looking forward to the next few games now and how we can bridge the gap between us and India within five days.

Don't target 300 in these pitches. Get 250 and Indians won't chase it.

 

[Mamoon]

Don't target 300 in these pitches. Get 250 and Indians won't chase it.

Shadab is a mediocre spinner. I don't think you can defend 250 against India (even without Kohli) on these tracks without a quality spin attack.

If don't pick up a few quick wickets with the new ball, we are toast. Our bowling in the middle-overs is poor.

 

[Mp812]

https://youtu.be/BRjwpzy3WnU srikant on 83 win

 

[PakSarZameen]

Pakistan in England can beat any team on earth. It wasn't a fluke, those conditions just suit us perfectly.

Combine that with the passion that the team has and you win a trophy like the T20 WC or CT.

 

[munda_khi]

https://youtu.be/BRjwpzy3WnU srikant on 83 win

Thankyou sir for posting this. Amazing story and superb narrator

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

OP is right. CT win was not a fluke and now we should move on to the next match.

Also good to see some posters who were going to skip this match coming back and posting here.

 

[Srtfan]

[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] I don't think we can chase 250 with this middle order batsman.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] I don't think we can chase 250 with this middle order batsman.

Rahul need to bat at 3. And if Pandya is out of the tournament, get Pant in as replacement. That line up of Rohit-Dhawan-Rahul-Dhoni-Pandey-Jadhav-Pant is better than what we have now.

 

[the_outsider]

Rahul need to bat at 3. And if Pandya is out of the tournament, get Pant in as replacement. That line up of Rohit-Dhawan-Rahul-Dhoni-Pandey-Jadhav-Pant is better than what we have now.

Need a 6th bowler. Pant is not getting a call-up. Should ideally bring in Jaddu. If not, then Krunal. We need a batting all-rounder to replace the outgoing batting all-rounder.

But yeah I would rather see KL at 3 and Rayadu at 4 than what we had today.

 

[Buffet]

Shadab is a mediocre spinner. I don't think you can defend 250 against India (even without Kohli) on these tracks without a quality spin attack.

If don't pick up a few quick wickets with the new ball, we are toast. Our bowling in the middle-overs is poor.

Indian middle order looks weak. If top order doesn't fire, they will struggle big time chasing 250.

 

[Buffet]

[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] I don't think we can chase 250 with this middle order batsman.

Yah, it's a weak one.

 

[RainMan_]

Nobody can deny the fact that everything went in Pakistan's favor in CT and they were super lucky in that tournament. They got a spin friendly subcontinental type wicket against England that immediately to England to a disadvantageous position.

In QF Srilanka were cruising to victory against Pak and then they dropped few dollies of Sarfaraz/amir, can't remember correctly.

 

[Dingolfy]

Don't target 300 in these pitches. Get 250 and Indians won't chase it.

You need 280 plus to put our TTF middle order to test because Rayudu,Karthik and even Jadhav are good against spin and can run hard.
It is while chasing bigger scores, they get exposed.

 

[BDfanforever]

In QF Srilanka were cruising to victory against Pak and then they dropped few dollies of Sarfaraz/amir, can't remember correctly.

Pakistan were 162/7 chasing 237. SRL dropped Sarfaraz on 194/7 then again on 198/7. Amir was smashing SRL bowlers as if he was a top order batsman lol.

 

[jadaja]

India were on roll in 1983 plus some of their opponents underestimated them so they lost. It was no way their true reflection.WI was by far the best team then and I will go to say that 1983 WI team is best odi side ever.They would beat any side which has suited up till today their bowling was that dynamic.

CT 2017 win was/is not their true reflection for Pakistan team.Everything went right for Pakistan that day .They were due to win one match after such a long losing streak.Pakistan is not that great India should beat 95 out of 100 times.

People need to stop using that CT as some benchmark to determine Pakistan's strength as a team.

 

[JaDed]

1983 we beat Windies twice, so thats not a fluke as well and yes neither is CT.

But at the OP even the Pak posters that bring in CT final almost every day should take it easy now.

 

[giri26]

To be frank, Pakistan played very well in CT and deservedly won the title but again there isn't much gap between the two sides. If we see even in CT, Pakistan lost by a huge margin to India in the first game. So there was a bit of over reaction which is understandable. Pakistan may well go on to beat India to win the Asia Cup but still both teams are pretty close and anyone can win on their day.

 

[Wonderwoman]

Logged in PP today and found immature fans targeting Pakistan's CT win calling it fluke etc.
Thats Load of horse dung.
By the same logic India's 1983 wc win was a fluke as well.
Fact is Pakistan played their best cricket in that tournament and won fair and square. How about giving them credit for it instead of crying foul about fluke?
Whats done was done. Move on for God's sake and concentrate on Asia cup now.
Pakistan played like champions in semis and finals of that tournament and won thumping victories which should be appreciated. Period. End of the matter.

PS: This post is targeted towards self hating Pak fans (You know who they are). Learn to appreciate good things in life instead of whining about every little thing every now and then.
Thanks.

India's 1983 win was very much a fluke. It was never expected and India never really had the aura of world champions like the Windies.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

All of us get various terms confused from time to time.

Fluke is something which is achieved primarily by LUCK.

There is a difference between a fluke outcome and an unexpected outcome.

If you are an amazing chess player and I am an average one and we play a game in the finals where I play superbly while you keep floundering, then my win may be unexpected but it IS well deserved.

Pakistan's thrashing of India in CT was unexpected but well deserved.

India beating WI in 1983 was super duper unexpected (Kris Srikanth in an interview gives a blow by blow account of how the team felt when defending the target...they were thinking of packing up when Viv was smashing it around)......BUT the win was well deserved.

If people refer to Bumrah's no ball or Viv's needlessly over-aggressive shot, let me remind you that there will always be a LUCK/FLUKE moment in every game. You still have to capitalize on it.

Take Pakistan's 1992 WC. They should have been knocked out honestly but LUCK saved them. But what did they do after that? They played superbly, beat tournament favourites NZ and then won against Eng in finals.

They deserved the win.

 

[ARK Rafay]

There are no accidents...

 

[Dr_Bassim]

You cant fluke a tournament.

You can fluke a match, but a tournament?

Ridiculous.

I might add, Pakistan are favorites for the World Cup because they seem to love playing in England more than anywhere else and which is why they won the Champions Trophy as well.

If the Champions Trophy was played in Melbourne or Wanderers, Pakistan would have exited befittingly in group stage.

Nevertheless, its time to focus on the next match.

Champions Trophy is laurels of the past.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Pakistan won 4 matches on the trot - essentially 4 knockouts against SL,SA,ENG and IND. You certainly can't fluke that. They peaked at the right time and were deserving winners. But I do remember certain posters yapping on about India's CT win in 2013 and hiw it was in SC style conditions and were belittling India 's CT win. Same posters had no problem celebrating Semifinal win over England on a used Cardiff pitch that looked much more Asian.

I have no problem giving credit for that win anyway as it exposed England's inability to win on pitches that weren't super flat but why the double standards?

Pakistan should still beat India in Asia Cup from now on but that CT triumph is not gonna happen every other day with this team.

 

[ads101]

All of us get various terms confused from time to time.

Fluke is something which is achieved primarily by LUCK.

There is a difference between a fluke outcome and an unexpected outcome.

Agreed.

That CT was perhaps the most consistent I've ever seen Pakistan play in a tournament. We've been a lot more shaky/lucky even in other tournaments we won. I know Pakistan got lucky with the rain in 1992 a bit (though I didn't watch it). In the 2009 T20 world cup, we sort of scraped by till the semi finals, not terrible but not great either, losing to both England and Sri Lanka on the way. Squeezed past South Africa in the semi finals and up to that point South Africa really looked dominant recording heavy wins and looking to win it all.

In the CT however Pakistan lost the first India match. But after that won all their matches and did pretty convincingly. Thrashed both England and India in the semi finals and finals, and looked to be improving every game. There was no question that Pakistan played the best over the whole tournament at the end of the CT.

So we should be proud of that win. For once in a tournament we actually dominated a large part of it, and were consistent. Shouldn't demean it and call if a fluke, as I said we played a lot of consistently great cricket in a row.

 

[Stalin]

Oh come on .. pakistan played exceptionally well in the champions trophy and were the deserving winners . Period. There is no such thing as a fluke in sport contrary to what many people believe. You perform , you win . You don't, you lose. That's that.

P.S I'm an Indian , so don't start hitting me with your lame logics, thinking I am a pakistani trying to defend this.

 

[Cricketlover11vns]

Need a 6th bowler. Pant is not getting a call-up. Should ideally bring in Jaddu. If not, then Krunal. We need a batting all-rounder to replace the outgoing batting all-rounder.

But yeah I would rather see KL at 3 and Rayadu at 4 than what we had today.

Rahul averages 12 in last 10 odis
Dk averaging 60
I dont why dhoni fans get a burn seeing dk threatning their thala who needs some serious batting tips

 

[Bhoot_Pret]

I totally agree with Sir [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]. CT final win of Pak team was a total fluke. Even West Indies won it in 2004, so did it prove that they were the best team, even better than the likes of Australia who were invincible at that time. Come on ppers have some common sense. Dont just go with the results. Flukes do happen and it was Pak team's fluke in CT17. Getting thrased by NZ team with a score line of 5-0 proves it. Pak team mostly plays Sri Lanka, West Indies and Zimbawe and some matches with new entrants. Why why why ? Coz they r not a good team at all. While on the other hand Indian team plays often with SENA countries on a regular basis. You can look at their past series for last 2-3 years. Better teams are always in demand as they bring better competition. It is profitable for the broadcaster too. INDIAN team is the most souht after team in the world. And one more thing is that the obsession of former and current Pak players and Pak supporters with the Indian team and Indian players. For pak supporters, they always bring Indian team in every topic even if the topic is related to Zim vs West Indies. For pak players be it past or current they always talk about resumption of Indo pak bilateral series resumption. Oh come on Indian players dont even utter about it. Just get on with it. They r happy with what is offered to them. Why u guys r dying to play with India. You are no competitive anymore. Even Bangladesh is better than you. Supporters and players of strong team dont repeat a major trophy win till etertnity as they know that it can be done again. But with Pakistan team players and supporters its just the opposite. Every time they keep repeating Champions trophy win in every thing. Its laughable as even they know it will take ages to get a trophy like that again. Remember CT17 win was a fluke if not then West Indies team of CT 2004 is all time great team among all the cricket playing nation...

 

[the_outsider]

Rahul averages 12 in last 10 odis
Dk averaging 60
I dont why dhoni fans get a burn seeing dk threatning their thala who needs some serious batting tips

If the team wants to bring in DK for Dhoni, then fine. We could have given that a shot for this Asia Cup. I wouldn't have minded at all. But I would have liked to see KL in the team more than DK.

DK hasn't exactly failed but he's not done much either. Only 2 fifties and a SR of 75 in 10 games since his comeback. That doesn't exactly look like the second coming of DK like it was touted to be.

I would much rather have KL Rahul or Manish Pandey at no 4 before DK, even though I am very fond of the person himself.

 

[Balthazar]

CT finals win was a fluke just like India's '83 win. Indian team was going through an internal conflict with coach and the players. That had played the part in Pakistan winning the finals. Pakistan was ranked #7 coming in to the tournament, they were clearly not the best and they still won. A 5-0 whitewash at the hands of NZ proved that.

 

[austerlitz]

83,92,17 were all flukes.