Child sex abuse in Pakistan's religious schools is endemic

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PAKPATTAN, Pakistan -- Muhimman proudly writes his name slowly, carefully, one letter at a time, grinning broadly as he finishes. He’s just 11 years old and was a good student who had dreams of being a doctor.

School frightens him now. Earlier this year, a cleric at the religious school he faithfully attended in the southern Punjab town of Pakpattan took him into a washroom and tried to rape him. Muhimman's aunt, Shazia, who wanted only her first name used, said she believes the abuse of young children is endemic in Pakistan’s religious schools. She said she has known the cleric, Moeed Shah, since she was a little girl and describes him as an habitual abuser who used to ask little girls to pull up their shirts.

“He has done wrong with boys and also with two or three girls,” Shazia said, recalling one girl the cleric brutalized so badly he broke her back.

An investigation by The Associated Press found dozens of police reports, known here as First Information Reports, alleging sexual harassment, rape and physical abuse by Islamic clerics teaching in madrassas or religious schools throughout Pakistan, where many of the country’s poorest study. The AP also documented cases of abuse through interviews with law enforcement officials, abuse victims and their parents. The alleged victims who spoke for this story did so with the understanding only their first names would be used.

There are more than 22,000 registered madrassas in Pakistan, teaching more than 2 million children. But there are many more religious schools that are unregistered. They are typically started by a local cleric in a poor neighborhood, attracting students with a promise of a meal and free lodging. There is no central body of clerics that governs madrassas. Nor is there a central authority that can investigate or respond to allegations of abuse by clerics, unlike the Catholic Church, which has a clear hierarchy topped by the Vatican.

The government of Prime Minister Imran Khan has promised to modernize the curriculum and make the madrassas more accountable, but there is little oversight.

Police say the problem of sexual abuse of children by clerics is pervasive and the scores of police reports they have received are just the tip of the iceberg. Yet despite the dozens of reports, none have resulted in the conviction of a cleric. Religious clerics are a powerful group in Pakistan and they close ranks when allegations of abuse are brought against one of them. They have been able to hide the widespread abuse by accusing victims of blasphemy or defamation of Islam.

Families in Pakistan are often coerced into “forgiving” clerics, said Deputy Police Superintendent Sadiq Baloch, speaking in his office in the country's northwest, toward the border with Afghanistan.

Overcome by shame and fear that the stigma of being sexually abused will follow a child into adulthood, families choose instead to drop the charges, he said. Most often, when a family forgives the cleric the investigation ends because the charges are dropped.

“It is the hypocrisy of some of these mullahs, who wear the long beard and take on the cloak of piety only to do these horrible acts behind closed doors, while openly they criticize those who are clean shaven, who are liberal and open minded,” Baloch said. “In our society so many of these men, who say they are religious, are involved in these immoral activities.”

‘I WANT THIS MULLAH HANGED’

Police officials say they have no idea how many children are abused by religious clerics in Pakistan. The officials said clerics often target young boys who have not yet reached puberty in part because of the restrictive nature of Pakistan's still mostly conservative society, where male interaction with girls and women is unacceptable. The clerics for the most part had access to and trust with boys, who are less likely to report a sexual assault.

Eight-year-old Yaous from Pakistan’s remote northern Kohistan region is one of those boys.

Yaous’ father was a poor laborer who had no education and spoke only the local language of his area, yet he wanted to educate his son. He had heard of a religious school in Mansehra, several hundred kilometers (miles) south of his village, where other boys from the area had gone. Too poor to even own a phone, his father went for months without speaking to his son.

Yaous is small for his eight years. His features are slight. In an interview with the AP, with his uncle interpreting, Yaous' tiny body shivered as he told of his ordeal.

It was near the end of December last year — a holiday at the madrassa. Most of the students had left. Only Yaous and a handful of students had stayed behind. His village was hours away, and the cost of transportation home was too much for his parents.

The other students had gone to wash their clothes and Yaous said he was alone inside the mosque with Qari Shamsuddin, the cleric. The sexual assault was unexpected and brutal. The boy said Shamsuddin grabbed his hand, dragged him into a room and locked the door.

“It was so cold. I didn’t understand why he was taking my warm clothes off,” Yaous said, his voice was barely a whisper.

As Yaous remembered what happened, he buried his head deeper into his jacket. The cleric grabbed a stick, he said. It was small, maybe about 12 inches. The first few sharp slaps stung.

“The pain made me scream and cry, but he wouldn’t stop,” Yaous said. The boy was held prisoner for two days, raped repeatedly until he was so sick the cleric feared he would die and took him to the hospital.

At the hospital, Dr. Faisal Manan Salarzai said Yaous screamed each time he tried to approach him. Yaous was so small and frail looking, Salarzai called him the “baby.”

“The baby was having a lot of bruises on his body — on his head, on his chest, on his legs, so many bruises on other parts of his body,” Salarzai said.

Suspicious, Salarzai ordered Yaous moved to the isolation ward where he examined him, suspecting he had been sexually assaulted. The examination revealed brutal and repetitive assaults.

But Solarzai said Yaous' uncle refused to believe his nephew was sexually assaulted, instead he said the boy had fallen down. “He said the uncle finally said: ‘If news spreads in our area that he has been sexually assaulted it will be very difficult for him to survive in our area.'”

“He was not willing to talk about it or even think that he was sexually assaulted,” said Solarzai. But the evidence was overwhelming and the doctor contacted the police.

The cleric was arrested and is now in jail. Police have matched his DNA samples to those found on Yaous. But despite the arrest, fellow clerics and worshippers at the Madrassah-e-Taleem-ul-Quran mosque located in a remote region of northwest Pakistan dispute the charges. They say Shamsuddin is innocent, the victim of anti-Islamic elements in the country. The clerics and worshippers also say the accusation is part of a conspiracy to discredit Pakistan’s religious leaders and challenge the supremacy of Islam, a rallying cry often used by right-wing religious clerics seeking to enrage mobs to assert their power.

Yaous’ father, Abdul Qayyum, said he was ashamed he had not spoken to his son in more than three months before the attack happened.

“I want this mullah hanged. Nothing else will do,” Qayyum said.

‘FORGIVE ME’

Young boys are not the only victims of sexual abuse by religious clerics. Many young girls like Misbah, who is from a deeply conservative south Punjab village of Basti Qasi, have also been targeted by religious leaders.

Her father, Mohammad Iqbal, isn’t exactly sure how old Misbah is. He thinks she is 11 because in rural Pakistan many births are not registered or are registered much later, and it is just a guess when children are born. They share their small cinderblock structures with several goats and an extended family made up it seems of mostly children who play tag and run around the dirt compound. Misbah, who struggled for words, said she was raped in the mosque next door, where she had been studying the Quran for three years.

The assault happened one morning after she stayed behind to sweep the mosque. The other children had been sent home and the cleric, someone she trusted, asked Misbah to help.

“I had just began to clean when he slammed shut the mosque door,” she said in her native Saraiki language. “I didn’t know why and then he suddenly grabbed me and pulled me into a nearby room. I was screaming and shouting and crying. She couldn't say how long the assault went on. All she could remember was screaming for her father to help her but he wouldn't stop, he wouldn't stop, she repeated.

It was her uncle, Mohammed Tanvir, who rescued her. He had been on his way to college but stopped at the mosque to use the washroom. He noticed a pair of child’s shoes outside the door.

“Then I heard screaming from inside, she was screaming for her father,” Tanvir said. He smashed the door down saw his niece sprawled and naked on the floor. “It looked as if she had fainted,” he said. Her blood-stained pants were in a corner. The cleric knelt at his feet.

“‘Forgive me’ he kept saying to me,’” Tanvir recalled. The cleric was arrested but freed on bail.

‘SUCH A BEAST SHOULD NOT NE SPARED'

In the wake of the attempted rape of Muhimman, the young boy who had proudly showed his writing skills, his aunt said there has been a concerted attempt to silence the family.

"The village people say these are our spiritual leaders and the imams of our religious places, and refuse to kick him out,” Shazia said

After the attack on her nephew, she said, the villagers came to their home and pleaded with them to forgive the cleric, Moeed Shah, who had fled the area.

“They all came to our home and they know we are poor and he is an imam and they said we should forgive him but we won’t,” Shazia said. She said her father, Muhimman’s grandfather, refused.

Shah has yet to be arrested, even though the assault was filmed by several village boys who broke down the door to the washroom and frightened Shah away as he tired to rape Muhimman.

Police say they are investigating and a charge has been filed, but Shah is a fugitive. Some of the neighbors near the mosque said police are not searching vigorously for him. They seemed angry but also resigned to the fact that he would not be jailed.

Muhimman's aunt was inconsolable.

“Such a beast should not be spared at all,” Shazia said.

Source: https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...-pakistans-religious-schools-endemic-70221420
 
If anybody dares to discuss this issue in Pakistan, he is accused of apostasy, defaming Islam, and challenging the supremacy of Islam. This country is hopeless!
 
Mullahas are untouchable as they lead prayers and do nikahs! How on earth do they enjoy such freedom in Pakistani society is really madness! What is their contribution to the society?

In Karachi where I used to read quran in a mosque the local mulvi used to beat me with a stick if i mispronouned some words, seriously, hitting on a helpless kid's hand what kind of points they are driving home apart from damging the kids emotional well being.

Madina ki Riasat! Sure, Seriously, first let educate these illetretae mulvis.
 
Mullahas are untouchable as they lead prayers and do nikahs! How on earth do they enjoy such freedom in Pakistani society is really madness! What is their contribution to the society?

In Karachi where I used to read quran in a mosque the local mulvi used to beat me with a stick if i mispronouned some words, seriously, hitting on a helpless kid's hand what kind of points they are driving home apart from damging the kids emotional well being.

Madina ki Riasat! Sure, Seriously, first let educate these illetretae mulvis.

Sorry for your experience but my Maulvi Sahib was a kind gentleman for whom I pray every day in every prayer.
 
Sorry for your experience but my Maulvi Sahib was a kind gentleman for whom I pray every day in every prayer.

Unfortunately his experience is not one in isolation, it's all too common and happens everywhere, Pakistan and abroad.
 
I am sorry but this has a lot to do with parents.

My parents made sure that they didnt just "dump" me with a stranger and expect me to become a God fearing Muslim. My father, a busy man in his life, took the time to be around when the Maulana was teaching me or my siblings.

We know this problem exists but still leave our children with strangers - why do parents do that?
 
If anybody dares to discuss this issue in Pakistan, he is accused of apostasy, defaming Islam, and challenging the supremacy of Islam. This country is hopeless!

You are being sensationalist here. Read the article you posted. Many voices are calling for the criminal to be hanged.

Be critical of the Islam and society but don't end up sounding like a broke record.

There needs to be a better scrutiny of Mullahs and Madrassahs no doubt. Kids going there should have a proper platform to file a complaint which is then investigated independently.
 
Reminds me of a case such as this that made the news while Zia’s spawn Ejaz-ul-Haq was Minister for Religious Affairs in the Musharraf era. His response was that while the accusation may be true, people should nevertheless not talk about it, because doing so risks maligning the Ulema, Daamat Barakatuhum, and therefore Islam.
 
Among the senior clerics widely believed to be pedophiles was the infamous Sandwich maulvi, Sami ul Haq, Godfather of the Taliban, of the Akora Khattak seminary. He reportedly married off one of the boys he had abused for years to his own daughter.
 
Among the senior clerics widely believed to be pedophiles was the infamous Sandwich maulvi, Sami ul Haq, Godfather of the Taliban, of the Akora Khattak seminary. He reportedly married off one of the boys he had abused for years to his own daughter.

Any link to an article on this? that's some serious stuff bro - easy to say but please provide some sources.
 
Any link to an article on this? that's some serious stuff bro - easy to say but please provide some sources.

The scandal that led to him being bestowed with the Sandwich moniker is well-documented:

https://apnews.com/a3983ed1ed577c397f8567f8cfae94c9

Admittedly, I don’t have any articles to link to about the alleged pedophilia. A relative in IB involved with taping his phones confirmed it to me, but I realize that is probably not good enough.
 
The scandal that led to him being bestowed with the Sandwich moniker is well-documented:

https://apnews.com/a3983ed1ed577c397f8567f8cfae94c9

Admittedly, I don’t have any articles to link to about the alleged pedophilia. A relative in IB involved with taping his phones confirmed it to me, but I realize that is probably not good enough.

Ok bro - just want to be fair to people who cannot defend themselves here.
 
On the real tho with missionary's I know they're not married but these people have wives than why are they doing these things

Someone said maybe it's because of living with boys in madrasa for months with boys while you are teenager (when you are going crazy sexually) maybe that's where they develope a taste for kids slash men, this is just an idea but do any of you think this is the reason but I would also love to know more theories about this issue
 
Someone said maybe it's because of living with boys in madrasa for months with boys while you are teenager (when you are going crazy sexually) maybe that's where they develope a taste for kids slash men, this is just an idea but do any of you think this is the reason but I would also love to know more theories about this issue

That’s an intriguing theory. Could it also be the trauma of having been abused during their own stint as as student leading them to turn abuser when they are teachers?

This video was doing the rounds a while back, containing screenshots of the textbooks madrassa kids are taught. Apparently they’re taught about zoophila and necrophilia very early on, for reasons that are beyond me. Why do little kids need to know about these topics? Its sure to have an impact.

 
Probably only peripherally related, but has anyone noticed how many clerics are obsessed with people’s bathroom habits? I recall attending Friday prayers in a mosque in New York with a maulvi imported from Pakistan delivering the sermon devoted completely to how to properly relieve and subsequently cleanse yourself, in minute detail. It was cringeworthy to say the least, especially since I was accompanying my father and uncles, and the mosque had the upstairs section devoted to women, many of whom were in attendance.
 
That’s an intriguing theory. Could it also be the trauma of having been abused during their own stint as as student leading them to turn abuser when they are teachers?

This video was doing the rounds a while back, containing screenshots of the textbooks madrassa kids are taught. Apparently they’re taught about zoophila and necrophilia very early on, for reasons that are beyond me. Why do little kids need to know about these topics? Its sure to have an impact.

Possibly these could also be an issue
But in Punjab early teenagers in villages are caught with animals doing "stuff" and it's a taboo but it happens, sad to say but a lot so it may be relevant to discuss for maulvis but necrophilia I have no clue why are they discussing that
 
Possibly these could also be an issue
But in Punjab early teenagers in villages are caught with animals doing "stuff" and it's a taboo but it happens, sad to say but a lot so it may be relevant to discuss for maulvis but necrophilia I have no clue why are they discussing that

If you can read Urdu, pause the video at the point where the page from the textbook is displayed. I was shocked at how explicitly it discusses procreation with animals, corpses, and as best as I can make out, “girls who haven’t reached the age worthy of lust,” and how after you’ve done the deed, you don’t need to take the ritual bath. There are other details on that page that cannot be mentioned here.
 
If you can read Urdu, pause the video at the point where the page from the textbook is displayed. I was shocked at how explicitly it discusses procreation with animals, corpses, and as best as I can make out, “girls who haven’t reached the age worthy of lust,” and how after you’ve done the deed, you don’t need to take the ritual bath. There are other details on that page that cannot be mentioned here.
😞😢 You made me feel real sad seriously
Man our society is bad we need to do something it's shouldn't go on like this
 
That’s an intriguing theory. Could it also be the trauma of having been abused during their own stint as as student leading them to turn abuser when they are teachers?

This video was doing the rounds a while back, containing screenshots of the textbooks madrassa kids are taught. Apparently they’re taught about zoophila and necrophilia very early on, for reasons that are beyond me. Why do little kids need to know about these topics? Its sure to have an impact.


This guy has absolutely exposed the savagery of our mullahs. I have been following him keenly. Apart from this topic, he has also talked about how mullahs in this country spread violence and chaos. Moreover, he also criticised mullahs for calling for the murder of Ahmedis.

There has been a vicious social media going on against Engineer Ali in the past weeek by mullahs and their rabid followers who accuse him of blasphemy and discrediting religious leaders. He was even arrested by the Punjab Police three days back!
 
This guy has absolutely exposed the savagery of our mullahs. I have been following him keenly. Apart from this topic, he has also talked about how mullahs in this country spread violence and chaos. Moreover, he also criticised mullahs for calling for the murder of Ahmedis.

There has been a vicious social media going on against Engineer Ali in the past weeek by mullahs and their rabid followers who accuse him of blasphemy and discrediting religious leaders. He was even arrested by the Punjab Police three days back!

He was my senior at University, but I was only vaguely familiar because his class graduated the year mine joined. Back then he was hardcore Brelvi and went by Ali Rizvi instead of Ali Mirza.

I don’t agree with all of his opinions, but there’s so much to like: he lays bare the sheer depravity of the Ummayads, the hypocrisy of the clerical class, and clears so many misconceptions Sunnis have of Shia.
 
That’s an intriguing theory. Could it also be the trauma of having been abused during their own stint as as student leading them to turn abuser when they are teachers?

This video was doing the rounds a while back, containing screenshots of the textbooks madrassa kids are taught. Apparently they’re taught about zoophila and necrophilia very early on, for reasons that are beyond me. Why do little kids need to know about these topics? Its sure to have an impact.


I really like this guys way of speaking :)) good video
 
He was my senior at University, but I was only vaguely familiar because his class graduated the year mine joined. Back then he was hardcore Brelvi and went by Ali Rizvi instead of Ali Mirza.

I don’t agree with all of his opinions, but there’s so much to like: he lays bare the sheer depravity of the Ummayads, the hypocrisy of the clerical class, and clears so many misconceptions Sunnis have of Shia.

Woah!Also, he recently exposed the brutality and savagery of Muhammad Bin Qasim whom the Pakistani populace adores. He called him an invader who looted and pillaged Sindh.

Pakistanis have been taught from a very young age to worship MbQ and put down our very local hero Raja Dahir!
 
As a former Muslim, I must say that religion has its good parts and bad parts. In Pakistan unfortunately, We have only adopted the ills
 
Woah!Also, he recently exposed the brutality and savagery of Muhammad Bin Qasim whom the Pakistani populace adores. He called him an invader who looted and pillaged Sindh.

Pakistanis have been taught from a very young age to worship MbQ and put down our very local hero Raja Dahir!

Qasim brought islam to our land for which I am eternally grateful to him.
 
Qasim brought islam to our land for which I am eternally grateful to him.
I am not so sure about that theory afghans and Mughals were mostly the reason for the conversations Arabs didn't stay in subcontinent for a lot of time
 
As a former Muslim, I must say that religion has its good parts and bad parts. In Pakistan unfortunately, We have only adopted the ills

To quote Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."
 
Woah!Also, he recently exposed the brutality and savagery of Muhammad Bin Qasim whom the Pakistani populace adores. He called him an invader who looted and pillaged Sindh.

Pakistanis have been taught from a very young age to worship MbQ and put down our very local hero Raja Dahir!

You have been taught at a very young age to hate Pakistan, it's people, Islam, Muslims and molvis.
 
Woah!Also, he recently exposed the brutality and savagery of Muhammad Bin Qasim whom the Pakistani populace adores. He called him an invader who looted and pillaged Sindh.

Pakistanis have been taught from a very young age to worship MbQ and put down our very local hero Raja Dahir!

I would be forever grateful to Mohammed Bin Qasim for bringing Islam into our region.
 
He was my senior at University, but I was only vaguely familiar because his class graduated the year mine joined. Back then he was hardcore Brelvi and went by Ali Rizvi instead of Ali Mirza.

I don’t agree with all of his opinions, but there’s so much to like: he lays bare the sheer depravity of the Ummayads, the hypocrisy of the clerical class, and clears so many misconceptions Sunnis have of Shia.

I listen to him regularly as well but I feel that he's been super repetitive for some time now, more like the career of Shahid Afridi, started with a bang but then just plateaued over a long period of time with occasional sparks of brilliance against easy targets but nothing exceptional. He's a reactionary product, created by the idiosyncrasies of the people around him, which there are so many of, so he will maintain his audience but dive in too deep and you realize that there's not much more.

His core concepts about certain areas are very clear and helpful including

1. Tauheed
2. The current ills in our society related to faith

but falls off on many areas including but not limited to

1. Fiqh
2. Implementation of law and masaail

The user above quoted a video on Muhammad bin Qasim and that was one of the worst videos from him that I have ever seen. There was no proof, no arguments, and the things in the video mentioned as proof are all things that he stands against (to clarify, listing just one of the many inconsistencies in that video - he said something on the lines of that Muhammad bin Qasim is Saqafi and related to Hajjaj hence he was evil and in one of his own previous videos, he himself stated that Abu Lahb was Prophet Sallalu Alaihi Wasallam's chacha and family doesn't mean a lot). I don't know what motivated bin Qasim and whether his actions were good or bad, but that video was just atrocious from all angles.

As I've observed him deeply now, I also see the tendency that some of his core views keep flip-flopping, especially the ones related to ahmedis. He has stated in the past that they follow a false prophet, then in another video went ahead and stated that there is no clear evidence, then in another at a later date stated that they do follow a false prophet. I don't know how these videos are edited, and when they are recorded and posted so it's hard to stake a claim but it's nice that he's against violence against the community which should be the norm. On matters of belief, the first course of action shouldn't be violence so I like that he's against violence and non-state actors which is nice to see for once.

Now, coming on to the issue at hand here and the sensationalist opening post, this is a serious issue without a doubt and no-one raising this issue will be called an apostate by any sensible person. Full stop. Period.

We as a society are generally bad at taking care of our children. Our kids are one of the most deprived set of kids on the entire planet. Lack of education, malnutrition, child labor, and to top it off, they are never safe no matter where they are. There are certain issues that do not have two opinions about them and this is one of them.

We cannot let anyone get away with this no matter who they are and no matter what they are.
 
I listen to him regularly as well but I feel that he's been super repetitive for some time now, more like the career of Shahid Afridi, started with a bang but then just plateaued over a long period of time with occasional sparks of brilliance against easy targets but nothing exceptional. He's a reactionary product, created by the idiosyncrasies of the people around him, which there are so many of, so he will maintain his audience but dive in too deep and you realize that there's not much more.

His core concepts about certain areas are very clear and helpful including

1. Tauheed
2. The current ills in our society related to faith

but falls off on many areas including but not limited to

1. Fiqh
2. Implementation of law and masaail

The user above quoted a video on Muhammad bin Qasim and that was one of the worst videos from him that I have ever seen. There was no proof, no arguments, and the things in the video mentioned as proof are all things that he stands against (to clarify, listing just one of the many inconsistencies in that video - he said something on the lines of that Muhammad bin Qasim is Saqafi and related to Hajjaj hence he was evil and in one of his own previous videos, he himself stated that Abu Lahb was Prophet Sallalu Alaihi Wasallam's chacha and family doesn't mean a lot). I don't know what motivated bin Qasim and whether his actions were good or bad, but that video was just atrocious from all angles.

As I've observed him deeply now, I also see the tendency that some of his core views keep flip-flopping, especially the ones related to ahmedis. He has stated in the past that they follow a false prophet, then in another video went ahead and stated that there is no clear evidence, then in another at a later date stated that they do follow a false prophet. I don't know how these videos are edited, and when they are recorded and posted so it's hard to stake a claim but it's nice that he's against violence against the community which should be the norm. On matters of belief, the first course of action shouldn't be violence so I like that he's against violence and non-state actors which is nice to see for once.

Now, coming on to the issue at hand here and the sensationalist opening post, this is a serious issue without a doubt and no-one raising this issue will be called an apostate by any sensible person. Full stop. Period.

We as a society are generally bad at taking care of our children. Our kids are one of the most deprived set of kids on the entire planet. Lack of education, malnutrition, child labor, and to top it off, they are never safe no matter where they are. There are certain issues that do not have two opinions about them and this is one of them.

We cannot let anyone get away with this no matter who they are and no matter what they are.

We’re veering off on a tangent, but one issue I commend him on is the historical background he provides on the intra-Muslim conflicts early on: Ali vs Muawiya etc. Being from a Sunni background myself, I always had this nagging feeling that Sunnis, despite lip service to Ali, had something of a bias against him. It manifested itself in many shapes and forms: there were some who would brush it all under the carpet and insist on respect for all companions, which is non-controversial on the surface but belies a reluctance to face the facts head on. There were others, frequently Wahhabi/Salafi, who went one step further, claiming that Karbala never happened, held conferences on the supposed virtues of Muawiya and, horror of horrors, Yazeed himself, and attempted to bestow a veneer of legitimacy to the Ummayads.

For too long, debate on all these historical details had been avoided, so Ali Mirza discussing it repeatedly was an eye opener, for me at least. He is repetitive, but I wonder if there’s a method to the madness: perhaps these details deserve the repetition to drive it into people’s minds.
 
Qasim brought islam to our land for which I am eternally grateful to him.

Islam was present in Sindh long before MbQ can along. There were other motives for MbQ to invade Sindh. I know Pakistani textbooks portray MbQ as righteous , brave and upright leader but that is not accurate. Hazrat Umar compared Hajaj Ibn Yousuf with the Pharaoh.

If you actually read history, you will find out the Umayyad Caliphate was an oppressive state where the killing and suppression of Muslims was common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdI0dwxNjF8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAgZPMYdp2A
 
You have been taught at a very young age to hate Pakistan, it's people, Islam, Muslims and molvis.

Nobody is hating anything here. Stop being like a mullah and throw around fatwas when people question what you believe to be true.

Islam was present in Sindh long before MbQ can along. There were other motives for MbQ to invade Sindh. I know Pakistani textbooks portray MbQ as righteous , brave and upright leader but that is not accurate. Hazrat Umar compared Hajaj Ibn Yousuf with the Pharaoh.

If you actually read history, you will find out the Umayyad Caliphate was an oppressive state where the killing and suppression of Muslims was common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdI0dwxNjF8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAgZPMYdp2A
 
We’re veering off on a tangent, but one issue I commend him on is the historical background he provides on the intra-Muslim conflicts early on: Ali vs Muawiya etc. Being from a Sunni background myself, I always had this nagging feeling that Sunnis, despite lip service to Ali, had something of a bias against him. It manifested itself in many shapes and forms: there were some who would brush it all under the carpet and insist on respect for all companions, which is non-controversial on the surface but belies a reluctance to face the facts head on. There were others, frequently Wahhabi/Salafi, who went one step further, claiming that Karbala never happened, held conferences on the supposed virtues of Muawiya and, horror of horrors, Yazeed himself, and attempted to bestow a veneer of legitimacy to the Ummayads.

For too long, debate on all these historical details had been avoided, so Ali Mirza discussing it repeatedly was an eye opener, for me at least. He is repetitive, but I wonder if there’s a method to the madness: perhaps these details deserve the repetition to drive it into people’s minds.

I agree that he has made it mainstream and it's a really good thing. Ummaya dynasty needs to be laid bare for the crimes that they committed.

Both Sunnis and Shias share a lot of misconceptions and they needed to be out in the open. Glad someone is doing that.

Unrelated, you should also listen to Maulana Ishaq RA related to this issue.

The core issue at hand is that there are evil things that are happening in our religious institutes, and no one should and could deny that.
 
To quote Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

I like that quote, certainly a lot of truth in it. You can see the logic, once you fall in line with the doctrine, there is often the idea that to go against any part of it means you reject all of it - which makes it very easy to do things you wouldn't if left to your own instincts.

But I think it applies to all doctrines, not only religion. In the US they believe Communism is evil, and of course we had the rize of Nazi culture in the 1900s.
 
Nobody is hating anything here. Stop being like a mullah and throw around fatwas when people question what you believe to be true.

Islam was present in Sindh long before MbQ can along. There were other motives for MbQ to invade Sindh. I know Pakistani textbooks portray MbQ as righteous , brave and upright leader but that is not accurate. Hazrat Umar compared Hajaj Ibn Yousuf with the Pharaoh.

If you actually read history, you will find out the Umayyad Caliphate was an oppressive state where the killing and suppression of Muslims was common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdI0dwxNjF8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAgZPMYdp2A

To be honest this is getting nauseating.

I dont appreciate this level of hate against Islam. Think of better things to do with your time and at the least have some shame given that its the holy month of Ramadan for Muslims.
 
To be honest this is getting nauseating.

I dont appreciate this level of hate against Islam. Think of better things to do with your time and at the least have some shame given that its the holy month of Ramadan for Muslims.

Where is the hate? I may be a better Muslim than you. Truth is bitter!
 
Where is the hate? I may be a better Muslim than you. Truth is bitter!

The title of the thread is about religious schools and you are posting what you feel like about Islam.
 
To be honest this is getting nauseating.

I dont appreciate this level of hate against Islam. Think of better things to do with your time and at the least have some shame given that its the holy month of Ramadan for Muslims.

Whatever I have written is what Islamic scholars say. They even quote references from Sahih Bukhari.
 
Where is the hate? I may be a better Muslim than you. Truth is bitter!

Might be you feel certain sects of Islam are superior to others but don't want to say openly as you know sectarian discussion is not allowed.
 
Guys we are doing our kids a disservice if we continue the discussion into if Islam is bad or if MBQ was a hero let's just calm down and discuss THE most IMPORTANT issue at hand

abuse in Pakistan against kids
 
You are being sensationalist here. Read the article you posted. Many voices are calling for the criminal to be hanged.

Be critical of the Islam and society but don't end up sounding like a broke record.

There needs to be a better scrutiny of Mullahs and Madrassahs no doubt. Kids going there should have a proper platform to file a complaint which is then investigated independently.

Not being sensationalist. Give me an instance where a religious leader was jailed for sex abuse? The voices you are talking about are insignificant voices and they are suppressed by the same mullahs.

One recent examples, a boy was raped in KPK by a cleric associated with the JUI and instead of expelling the cleric from the party, JUI leaders threatened the parents of the boy! Mufti Kifayatullah also came to the savage cleric’s defence.

Cases of sex abuse of children in madrassas are not pursued due to intimidation and death threats!

If you follow Pakistani news, you will actually see and realise the widespread sex abuse of children in Pakistan religious schools.

Heck, the mullah who gave false testimony against Asia Bibi which resulted in her ten-year incarceration was allowed to walk free!
 
Not being sensationalist. Give me an instance where a religious leader was jailed for sex abuse? The voices you are talking about are insignificant voices and they are suppressed by the same mullahs.

One recent examples, a boy was raped in KPK by a cleric associated with the JUI and instead of expelling the cleric from the party, JUI leaders threatened the parents of the boy! Mufti Kifayatullah also came to the savage cleric’s defence.

Cases of sex abuse of children in madrassas are not pursued due to intimidation and death threats!

If you follow Pakistani news, you will actually see and realise the widespread sex abuse of children in Pakistan religious schools.

Heck, the mullah who gave false testimony against Asia Bibi which resulted in her ten-year incarceration was allowed to walk free!

Child abuse is very common in the Catholic Church also
 
Not being sensationalist. Give me an instance where a religious leader was jailed for sex abuse? The voices you are talking about are insignificant voices and they are suppressed by the same mullahs.

One recent examples, a boy was raped in KPK by a cleric associated with the JUI and instead of expelling the cleric from the party, JUI leaders threatened the parents of the boy! Mufti Kifayatullah also came to the savage cleric’s defence.

Cases of sex abuse of children in madrassas are not pursued due to intimidation and death threats!

If you follow Pakistani news, you will actually see and realise the widespread sex abuse of children in Pakistan religious schools.

Heck, the mullah who gave false testimony against Asia Bibi which resulted in her ten-year incarceration was allowed to walk free!

Yes justice is weak and the people in the clergy in particular pretend to be angel and get away with a lot of crime but to say that once such case is made public people don't speak up against is wrong. Or that speaking up against it is the same as blasphemy. I have seen such news on social media and in all of the comment vast majority of the people are calling for justice and punishment of the guilty irrespective of how long his beard or white his turban is.

Highlight the correct thing: child abuse in the society including the religious segment. The lack of justice and might makes right mentality.

You do a disservice to yourself since all the news you share are biased towards one segment of the society and most importantly in your commentary you express hopelessness and despair about that segment and the state of the country.

This guy is highlighting the issue boldly and he is the most popular guy related to Islam on youtube in Pakistan with over 1 million subscribers
Hathoon ke pancho ungliyan barabar nahi

I count myself far away from religious segment and they have their fault but in Pakistan no native activism regarding feeding the poor and providing support to them comes as close the work religious segment do. Be it Al-Khidmat foundation or saylani welfare. I advocate an objective criticism of this segment and not the blind condemning and vilifying of the whole segment.
 
Not being sensationalist. Give me an instance where a religious leader was jailed for sex abuse? The voices you are talking about are insignificant voices and they are suppressed by the same mullahs.

One recent examples, a boy was raped in KPK by a cleric associated with the JUI and instead of expelling the cleric from the party, JUI leaders threatened the parents of the boy! Mufti Kifayatullah also came to the savage cleric’s defence.

Cases of sex abuse of children in madrassas are not pursued due to intimidation and death threats!

If you follow Pakistani news, you will actually see and realise the widespread sex abuse of children in Pakistan religious schools.

Heck, the mullah who gave false testimony against Asia Bibi which resulted in her ten-year incarceration was allowed to walk free!

Then this is a failing of the justice system pure and simple. When a murderer or thief walks free from court, you don't ask questions of the thief, you should be asking why the legal system has failed.
 
Yes justice is weak and the people in the clergy in particular pretend to be angel and get away with a lot of crime but to say that once such case is made public people don't speak up against is wrong. Or that speaking up against it is the same as blasphemy. I have seen such news on social media and in all of the comment vast majority of the people are calling for justice and punishment of the guilty irrespective of how long his beard or white his turban is.

Highlight the correct thing: child abuse in the society including the religious segment. The lack of justice and might makes right mentality.

You do a disservice to yourself since all the news you share are biased towards one segment of the society and most importantly in your commentary you express hopelessness and despair about that segment and the state of the country.

This guy is highlighting the issue boldly and he is the most popular guy related to Islam on youtube in Pakistan with over 1 million subscribers
Hathoon ke pancho ungliyan barabar nahi

I count myself far away from religious segment and they have their fault but in Pakistan no native activism regarding feeding the poor and providing support to them comes as close the work religious segment do. Be it Al-Khidmat foundation or saylani welfare. I advocate an objective criticism of this segment and not the blind condemning and vilifying of the whole segment.

I follow this guy and he talks much sense which is rarity in the religious fraternity. No wonder, he was accused of defaming Islam and challenging the supremacy Islam and arrested by police last Wednesday.
 
Yes justice is weak and the people in the clergy in particular pretend to be angel and get away with a lot of crime but to say that once such case is made public people don't speak up against is wrong. Or that speaking up against it is the same as blasphemy. I have seen such news on social media and in all of the comment vast majority of the people are calling for justice and punishment of the guilty irrespective of how long his beard or white his turban is.

Highlight the correct thing: child abuse in the society including the religious segment. The lack of justice and might makes right mentality.

You do a disservice to yourself since all the news you share are biased towards one segment of the society and most importantly in your commentary you express hopelessness and despair about that segment and the state of the country.

This guy is highlighting the issue boldly and he is the most popular guy related to Islam on youtube in Pakistan with over 1 million subscribers
Hathoon ke pancho ungliyan barabar nahi

I count myself far away from religious segment and they have their fault but in Pakistan no native activism regarding feeding the poor and providing support to them comes as close the work religious segment do. Be it Al-Khidmat foundation or saylani welfare. I advocate an objective criticism of this segment and not the blind condemning and vilifying of the whole segment.

My criticism is very valid and objective. There is hopelessness in Pakistan. Nobody can deny that! Ali Mirza and Ghamdi are good religious leaders.
 
I would be wary of some of the claims on this thread, like many others they seem to be mainly targeted on a sectarian basis. You never see the same posters targeting other fiqhs which is like saying that the other ones are somehow angels, and there can be no abuse possible by those sects. I remain deeply sceptical.
 
I would suggest we go back to topic.

Or else no point in this thread.
 
PA panel proposes stricter punishment for crimes against children

PESHAWAR: A special committee of the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Assembly on child abuse on Monday submitted its report to the assembly proposing to increase sentences for several offences against children, including pornography, sexual abuse and trafficking, and to reactivate the non-functional child protection units in different districts.

Law minister Sultan Mohammad Khan tabled the report in the assembly’s session chaired by Speaker Mushtaq Ahmad Ghani.

The committee was constituted early this year after the killing and sexual abuse of a minor girl in Nowshera district, which had caused a public outcry.

In its report, the committee has proposed several amendments to the KP Child Protection and Welfare Act, 2010, suggesting that the proceedings of execution of sentence of death, awarded to an accused for offence of rape and unnatural lust, be recorded by audio-visual means and such recording be accessible to public as prescribed.

In the proposed KP Child Protection and Welfare (Amendment) Act, 2020, the committee suggested that the Child Protection and Welfare Commission (CPWC) maintain a register of sexual offenders, which should include the names of those convicted for offences against children.

It said such convicts should not be employed in any organisation dealing with children and he should also be prohibited to travel in any public transport used by children.

The proposed amendments also said the offences against children, including organ sale, pornography, trafficking, sexual abuse and exposure to seduction, would be tried by model courts set up by the Peshawar High Court instead of the special child protection courts.

The provision will not be applicable if the accused is a minor.

The panel suggested that the fine for commission of an offence of dealing with organs of a child be enhanced from Rs1 million to the minimum Rs2 million and the maximum Rs5 million along with sentence of death or life imprisonment.

The current sentence for child sexual abuse is imprisonment from seven up to 14 years with Rs1 million fine. The committee proposes punishment up to 14 years with Rs5 million fine.

Similarly, it is proposed that the punishment for child pornography be increased from three-seven years imprisonment and Rs200,000-Rs500,000 fine up to 14 years detention and Rs5 million fine.

The committee also recommended to increase sentence for the offence of exposure to seduction from the existing seven years imprisonment to up to 10 years imprisonment and fine from Rs1 million to Rs2 million.

The report also made recommendations for the curtailment of child abuse incidents and said the government should lift ban on recruitment for child protection units at district level to make the units functional.

It added that CPUs should be set up in all districts.

The committee proposes the establishment of child protection police stations at divisional level having SHOs well-versed in laws related to children.

It added that until the setting up of model police stations, the staff of the existing police stations should be given proper training so that they should incorporate proper provisions of laws in cases pertaining to child sexual abuse.

Speaker Mushtaq Ahmad Ghani said members of the treasury and opposition benches had put a lot of efforts for the preparation of the report and they would ensure its implementation.

He said the social welfare secretary should submit monthly report about the implementation of child protection laws, while all members should launch special awareness campaigns in their respective constituencies.

Later, the session was adjourned until today (Tuesday).
https://www.dawn.com/news/1567467/pa-panel-proposes-stricter-punishment-for-crimes-against-children
 
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