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Cold War Two

Robert

Robert

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At a time where the European NATO nations' defence budgets are falling, Russia is rearming at 5% of GDP. Nibbling off bits of Georgia and the Crimea, threatening Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, probing UK air defenses, driving mass movement of refugees as a destabilising force, and sailing a battle fleet through the English Channel.

The Germans have demothballed 150 MBTs. The British Army has deployed 800 soldiers in Estonia, with MBTs and drone support. France and Denmark are also sending troops. The RAF has deployed Typhoon aircraft in Romania. The USAF and RCAF are sending aircraft too. The US is sending a battalion to Poland.

Whatever happened to detente? Scary days.
 
Trump wan't to deescalate whilst Hilary wants to impose a no fly zone, clearly trump is the saner one here.
 
Cold wars are the best type to be honest. Far preferable to the hot wars being fought out by these protagonists proxies across the middle east.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Cold wars are the best type to be honest. Far preferable to the hot wars being fought out by these protagonists proxies across the middle east.
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We seem to have both at once in Syria. The big fear is that a NATO jet could bump heads with a Russian jet.
 
Robert said:
At a time where the European NATO nations' defence budgets are falling, Russia is rearming at 5% of GDP. Nibbling off bits of Georgia and the Crimea, threatening Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, probing UK air defenses, driving mass movement of refugees as a destabilising force, and sailing a battle fleet through the English Channel.

The Germans have demothballed 150 MBTs. The British Army has deployed 800 soldiers in Estonia, with MBTs and drone support. France and Denmark are also sending troops. The RAF has deployed Typhoon aircraft in Romania. The USAF and RCAF are sending aircraft too. The US is sending a battalion to Poland.

Whatever happened to detente? Scary days.
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Playing the Devil's Advocate and looking at it from Russia's point of view, why wouldn't they see the situation as NATO circling and threatening Russia? From Russia's point of view, countries that were part of the Soviet Union (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, Ukraine ....) along with others that were allied to Russia (Poland, East Germany, Hungary..) as little as 20 odd years ago, are now not only members of the EU, but some are also members of NATO, with US & UK troops, tanks, planes and missiles on their territories pointed at Russia.
 
The cold war was a good time for Pakistan, it'd cool if we could go back to USA v. Russia and Pakistan allied with America again. Back then Pakistanis were respected in the west, until the 80s.
 
Pakistanian said:
The cold war was a good time for Pakistan, it'd cool if we could go back to USA v. Russia and Pakistan allied with America again. Back then Pakistanis were respected in the west, until the 80s.
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I think there will always be a problem for Pakistan if their progress is aligned to USA or Russia as those alliances can change like the seasons.
 
driving mass movement of refugees as a destabilising force
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How so? Majority of refugees are fleeing their countries due to war. I highly doubt Russia has anything to do with it.

But yeah, with Putin and Hillary: ominous signs.
 
Yossarian said:
Playing the Devil's Advocate and looking at it from Russia's point of view, why wouldn't they see the situation as NATO circling and threatening Russia? From Russia's point of view, countries that were part of the Soviet Union (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, Ukraine ....) along with others that were allied to Russia (Poland, East Germany, Hungary..) as little as 20 odd years ago, are now not only members of the EU, but some are also members of NATO, with US & UK troops, tanks, planes and missiles on their territories pointed at Russia.
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Both NATO and Russia both have broken promises.

Under the George HW Bush administration there was a clear quid pro quo. Secretary of State James Baker promised the Russians that NATO would not expand "one inch" eastwards. This was in exchange for the Russians accepting German reunification and their alignment with NATO.

We know that agreement, whilst an informal one, has not been respected and has added to the Russian sense of encirclement you rightly mention.

Russia on the other hand signed the 1994 Budapest Memorandum whereby Russia would respect Ukrainian territorial sovereignty in return for their membership of the NPT. This agreement broken by their actions in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea in 2014.
 
Yossarian said:
Playing the Devil's Advocate and looking at it from Russia's point of view, why wouldn't they see the situation as NATO circling and threatening Russia? From Russia's point of view, countries that were part of the Soviet Union (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, Ukraine ....) along with others that were allied to Russia (Poland, East Germany, Hungary..) as little as 20 odd years ago, are now not only members of the EU, but some are also members of NATO, with US & UK troops, tanks, planes and missiles on their territories pointed at Russia.
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It's a good point. Russia will feel encircled by some ex-USSR states.

I do feel however that Putin is using his military buildup, Syrian adventure and naval grandstanding to distract his people from the failing Russian economy. He has a servile press to assist him. Some 200 Russian journalists have been murdered since 2000.
 
Yossarian said:
Playing the Devil's Advocate and looking at it from Russia's point of view, why wouldn't they see the situation as NATO circling and threatening Russia? From Russia's point of view, countries that were part of the Soviet Union (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, Ukraine ....) along with others that were allied to Russia (Poland, East Germany, Hungary..) as little as 20 odd years ago, are now not only members of the EU, but some are also members of NATO, with US & UK troops, tanks, planes and missiles on their territories pointed at Russia.
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That not really a point of view, more like a Russian propoganda. Sovereign countries have the right to look after their interests. If Ukraine wants to join EU then it is non of Russia's business to interfere in their country. NATO is not circling Russia, Russia is forcing its former "allies" to join NATO. Maybe if Russia was a little more friendly they wouldn't be looking for NATO's help.
 
Russia needs to learn from Germany- Germany was militaristic state but today leads the world in soft power, Rus needs to work with its neighbors and not dominate them.
 
Saeed said:
That not really a point of view, more like a Russian propoganda. Sovereign countries have the right to look after their interests. If Ukraine wants to join EU then it is non of Russia's business to interfere in their country. NATO is not circling Russia, Russia is forcing its former "allies" to join NATO. Maybe if Russia was a little more friendly they wouldn't be looking for NATO's help.
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Appears you haven't heard of the phrase "Playing the Devil's Advocate...".
 
Bewal Express said:
Russia needs to learn from Germany- Germany was militaristic state but today leads the world in soft power, Rus needs to work with its neighbors and not dominate them.
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An interesting viewpoint. I never really thought of Germany leading the world by any sort of power, although they do set high standards within their limitations (imposed by other powers). Could you expand?
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
An interesting viewpoint. I never really thought of Germany leading the world by any sort of power, although they do set high standards within their limitations (imposed by other powers). Could you expand?
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I think the Bewal Express means economic power - exporting lots of cars and machinery - attract and co-opt rather than coerce. Britain does this too, and also spreads influence through the BBC World Service and TV exports such as Doctor Who and Top Gear.
 
Robert said:
I think the Bewal Express means economic power - exporting lots of cars and machinery - attract and co-opt rather than coerce. Britain does this too, and also spreads influence through the BBC World Service and TV exports such as Doctor Who and Top Gear.
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That's what I thought, basically it's the best option and a sensible one considering their military restrictions and limitations. Only the US can use force to exert power unrestricted. Even Russia won't push it's luck beyond a certain point IMO.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
An interesting viewpoint. I never really thought of Germany leading the world by any sort of power, although they do set high standards within their limitations (imposed by other powers). Could you expand?
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Certainly an economic power and by dint of it's economic and political position within and controlling EU it does have ability to 'project' soft power on World stage. e.g. Angela Merkel's example to other EU countries in welcoming refugees.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
That's what I thought, basically it's the best option and a sensible one considering their military restrictions and limitations. Only the US can use force to exert power unrestricted. Even Russia won't push it's luck beyond a certain point IMO.
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Hmm, they don't have much to export other than raw materials - which is a bad thing for them long-term as the oil slowly runs down and the world turns to green tech.

At present they will continue to court the million ethnic Russians in the Baltic states through propaganda, and intelligence assets implanted in the trade unions and cultural centres. This is destabilising geopolitically, but I don't see their course changing under their current leadership.
 
Robert take a bow my friend. Read the length early and smashed it for a six.
 
JaDed said:
Good call Robert where it ends we will know only in 10 years.
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Suleiman said:
Robert take a bow my friend. Read the length early and smashed it for a six.
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Thank you. I have been saying this for over a decade. The signs were all there to see. As soon as the Tu-2 aircraft started probing our air defences again, I knew something was up.

Reading ‘Alternative War’ by JJ Patrick was eye-opening - he was a voice in the wilderness.
 
Champ_Pal said:
India is not on anyone's side. They do business with everyone.
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When it comes to China then India is firmly in the Western camp. In 30 years that is where the world is headed where China will be what the Soviets were if anything China will have more economic power. The West needs a poodle in the neighbourhood to confront China. In the 80s it was Pakistan who did the dirty work vs the Soviets, this time it'll be India. The Quad agreement pretty much is where it'll be headed.
 
Pakpak said:
When it comes to China then India is firmly in the Western camp. In 30 years that is where the world is headed where China will be what the Soviets were if anything China will have more economic power. The West needs a poodle in the neighbourhood to confront China. In the 80s it was Pakistan who did the dirty work vs the Soviets, this time it'll be India. The Quad agreement pretty much is where it'll be headed.
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If that was the case why did Pak get the 450 mil F-16 parts deal back on track.

Unlike Pak establishments Indian Establishments views US with skepticism all the time.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ind...s-jaishankar-slams-american-f-16-deal-3380367
 
JaDed said:
If that was the case why did Pak get the 450 mil F-16 parts deal back on track.

Unlike Pak establishments Indian Establishments views US with skepticism all the time.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ind...s-jaishankar-slams-american-f-16-deal-3380367
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???

In the future cold war the only hostile nation in South Asia to China is India

The only nation in South Asia to be involved in a defensive alliance against China is India.

Other than the F16s, which are not new, almost everything else provided to Pakistan is from China.

When the new cold war breaks out the West will look at the Indians, not the Pakistanis, to be their lap dog against China. Indians already seem to be heading in that direction joining alliance organisations with the US Japan and Australia. Against China.

Not sure why you got offended. Just a basic realpolitik reality.
 
Pakpak said:
When the new cold war breaks out the West will look at the Indians, not the Pakistanis, to be their lap dog against China. Indians already seem to be heading in that direction joining alliance organisations with the US Japan and Australia. Against China
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India are going to fight China on behalf of the US ?

The lapdog allegation is strange given India's historic stance of non-alignment for the last 70 years. You are projecting US exploitation of Pakistan in the last few decades onto India. Not gonna happen.
 
RexRex said:
India are going to fight China on behalf of the US ?

The lapdog allegation is strange given India's historic stance of non-alignment for the last 70 years. You are projecting US exploitation of Pakistan in the last few decades onto India. Not gonna happen.
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A bitter truth. Hard to swallow fact!

India, despite receiving an epic phainta at LAC, have beautifully maneuvered the whole situation. India are no one's lapdog/slave.
 
Champ_Pal said:
India is not on anyone's side. They do business with everyone.
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That may change in a few decades. By then China will be dominating Russia, while EU, North America, Japan and Australasia form a trade and defence bloc. India will be a global power but still small fry compared to these big blocs.
 
Robert said:
That may change in a few decades. By then China will be dominating Russia, while EU, North America, Japan and Australasia form a trade and defence bloc. India will be a global power but still small fry compared to these big blocs.
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China and Russia are allies. How can China dominate Russia? Are you saying China and Russia will become enemies?
 
sweep_shot said:
China and Russia are allies. How can China dominate Russia? Are you saying China and Russia will become enemies?
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China already has ten times Russia’s GDP. When Russia’s oil runs out, they will have no leverage any more.

People talk about European states being puppets of the USA. If so then Russia will become a satrap of China.
 
Pakpak said:
???

In the future cold war the only hostile nation in South Asia to China is India

The only nation in South Asia to be involved in a defensive alliance against China is India.

Other than the F16s, which are not new, almost everything else provided to Pakistan is from China.

When the new cold war breaks out the West will look at the Indians, not the Pakistanis, to be their lap dog against China. Indians already seem to be heading in that direction joining alliance organisations with the US Japan and Australia. Against China.

Not sure why you got offended. Just a basic realpolitik reality.
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No man not offended just defensive , even before USA tried this with China and historically we didn’t join, India wouldn’t fight a war that would destroy it’s economy.

India has always been wary of US, and it always will be esp that of NATO.
 
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WhenSultansBowled said:
A bitter truth. Hard to swallow fact!

India, despite receiving an epic phainta at LAC, have beautifully maneuvered the whole situation. India are no one's lapdog/slave.
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No country wants to be a lapdog or a slave, but if you are in a geopolitical hotspot you don't get the choice to be non-aliged. India can align with the West as long as they are not viewed as a threat, but if they ever became a rival for trade or territorial rights, then things might change.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
No country wants to be a lapdog or a slave, but if you are in a geopolitical hotspot you don't get the choice to be non-aliged. India can align with the West as long as they are not viewed as a threat, but if they ever became a rival for trade or territorial rights, then things might change.
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Also true.

As a country Pakistan are in a messy 'geopolitical hotspot'.

Afghanistan, Iran, India and China. Ek se badhkar ek!!
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
No country wants to be a lapdog or a slave, but if you are in a geopolitical hotspot you don't get the choice to be non-aliged. India can align with the West as long as they are not viewed as a threat, but if they ever became a rival for trade or territorial rights, then things might change.
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Indians and Americans have complementary economies. American tech companies use Indian workforce and Indians gobble up American products. In the future when they compete, it will be similar to US vs Japan or European countries. That's because, India will allow American companies to thrive in India. This is where China made a mistake. They built copy cat replicas of American companies and were Uber protectionist.
 
JaDed said:
No man not offended just defensive , even before USA tried this with China and historically we didn’t join, India wouldn’t fight a war that would destroy it’s economy.

India has always been wary of US, and it always will be esp that of NATO.
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They have always lent more to Moscow, presumably as the historical opponents of the old colonial power.
 
Robert said:
They have always lent more to Moscow, presumably as the historical opponents of the old colonial power.
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More to do with Socialism back in the day but currently its due to sanction savy West which somehow allows Middle-east dictators depending upon their allegiances , I wouldn't blame Indian establishments to be wary of West considering how they interfere in Pakistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Iran.

My birth country Libya was destroyed with the help of West, I'm in favor of India having economic alliance but definitely not full on ally status unless they are 20% as innovative as Japan/Korea.
 
JaDed said:
More to do with Socialism back in the day but currently its due to sanction savy West which somehow allows Middle-east dictators depending upon their allegiances , I wouldn't blame Indian establishments to be wary of West considering how they interfere in Pakistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Iran.

My birth country Libya was destroyed with the help of West, I'm in favor of India having economic alliance but definitely not full on ally status unless they are 20% as innovative as Japan/Korea.
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That’s interesting. What do you think would have happened in Libya had the UN not mandated a no-fly zone which was enforced by some NATO member states?
 
Robert said:
That’s interesting. What do you think would have happened in Libya had the UN not mandated a no-fly zone which was enforced by some NATO member states?
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I hope you realize that's not the intervention I'm talking about, the rebels were armed by west there is no way that many weapons were available to fight the Establishment in the first place.

While the resolution completely destroyed qaddafi but he was as usual displaced.

Not saying he was a saint or anything but similar rules should had been applied to dictator countries in middleeast.
 
JaDed said:
I hope you realize that's not the intervention I'm talking about, the rebels were armed by west there is no way that many weapons were available to fight the Establishment in the first place.

While the resolution completely destroyed qaddafi but he was as usual displaced.

Not saying he was a saint or anything but similar rules should had been applied to dictator countries in middleeast.
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I always assumed the rebel weapons came from Russia. Or international arms dealers with no allegiance to any government but just money. There are millions of AK-47 rifles in the world. Those weapons we see field-welded onto pickup trucks are usually Soviet-era 23mm cannon.
 
Robert said:
I always assumed the rebel weapons came from Russia. Or international arms dealers with no allegiance to any government but just money. There are millions of AK-47 rifles in the world. Those weapons we see field-welded onto pickup trucks are usually Soviet-era 23mm cannon.
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Not every rebel organization can become IRA over night unless they are allied with West.
 
JaDed said:
Not every rebel organization can become IRA over night unless they are allied with West.
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The PIRA had a few Armalites, one M60 and a few kilos of Semtex. No heavy weapons. They were never able to take on the British Army directly, or even the RUC. In any event it would be a mistake to suggest that they were armed by the US government, though they carried out fundraising activities in Boston and NYC.

The Libyan rebels did receive some heavier weapons from Poland, but mostly from Gulf States to the point where they could take on Gadaffi’s forces directly. USA and UK supplied them with comms and body armour, though Secretary Clinton wouldn’t give them weapons. Correct me if I am wrong on this. I am unsure why the Gulf States would want to unseat Gaddafi.
 
Robert said:
The PIRA had a few Armalites, one M60 and a few kilos of Semtex. No heavy weapons. They were never able to take on the British Army directly, or even the RUC. In any event it would be a mistake to suggest that they were armed by the US government, though they carried out fundraising activities in Boston and NYC.

The Libyan rebels did receive some heavier weapons from Poland, but mostly from Gulf States to the point where they could take on Gadaffi’s forces directly. USA and UK supplied them with comms and body armour, though Secretary Clinton wouldn’t give them weapons. Correct me if I am wrong on this. I am unsure why the Gulf States would want to unseat Gaddafi.
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France and England did supply them and UAE probably did using US help, the whole situation was made to look like defense for Libyan citizens.

NAtO along with US kept fooling the world that they are debating on arming Libyan Rebels until France actually admitted to have supplied them only after they were caught doing so.
 
JaDed said:
NAtO along with US kept fooling the world that they are debating on arming Libyan Rebels until France actually admitted to have supplied them only after they were caught doing so.
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Yup.

Robert thinks there was no American interference in Libya which is of course not true.
 
sweep_shot said:
Yup.

Robert thinks there was no American interference in Libya which is of course not true.
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In this case your country Canada openly helped destroying 8 warships of Libya and bombed using CF-18 the city area near my birth place.

Libya unlike Iraq the blame lies more with France/UK/UAE but obviously US was more than happy to support their efforts.
 
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JaDed said:
In this case your country Canada openly helped destroying 8 warships of Libya and bombed using CF-18 the city area near my birth place.

Libya unlike Iraq the blame lies more with France/UK/UAE but obviously US was more than happy to support their efforts.
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Good point on CANADA - the NATO operation was led by General Bouchard of the RCAF.
 
There is no sequel to wars as far as the Western JC alliance is concerned. Even WW2 is accepted as the unfinished war.

The West believes they are in a constant phase of war, simply because the West instigates and profits from wars for the purpose of JC imperialism.

Sequels are for MSM, we are just witnessing a director’s cut.

Remember, Iraq war in early 90s, was followed by the HD remaster in 2003.

Do not believe the hype folks, as far as the West is concerned, they are always at war with Russia.
 
JaDed said:
In this case your country Canada openly helped destroying 8 warships of Libya and bombed using CF-18 the city area near my birth place.

Libya unlike Iraq the blame lies more with France/UK/UAE but obviously US was more than happy to support their efforts.
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America is the primary snake. Actually, scratch that. America also seems to get order from Israel.
 
sweep_shot said:
Where did you see antisemitism? Being anti-Israel doesn't mean being anti-Jew.

Are you going to call ultraorthodox Jews anti-Semites too? Check what they think about Israel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKplabTRuak.
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America is man ally of Israel ( I am not an Israel lover) They coordinate things on multiple levels. To say America takes orders from Israel is a whole different thing.
 
sweep_shot said:
You made a comment like that before (that west didn't mess up Libya).

Do not backtrack now.
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That’s not even the same as what you thought I said in your last post.

I said I thought the Libyan rebel weapons were mostly from Russia - rifles and light repeating cannon. I didn’t claim there was no US involvement.
 
Robert said:
That’s not even the same as what you thought I said in your last post.

I said I thought the Libyan rebel weapons were mostly from Russia - rifles and light repeating cannon. I didn’t claim there was no US involvement.
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You said Libyan issue didn't happen due to west; something along that line.

I think it was that Ukraine thread. Not this one.

Also, Libyan weapons came from Russia? LOL. What's your source?
 
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sweep_shot said:
You said Libyan issue didn't happen due to west; something along that line.

I think it was that Ukraine thread. Not this one.

Also, Libyan weapons came from Russia? LOL. What's your source?
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Gaddafi’s equipment was all from Russia. I remember him sending up Sukhois in the eighties that were shot down by USN F-14s.

The rebels were able to commandeer some MiG-21 and MiG-23 fighters as well as Mi-24 helicopters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Army_(Libya)
 
<b>US unveils $700m, next-generation B-21 nuclear bomber</b>

The US Air Force plans to buy at least 100 B-21 Raider stealth bombers, which come with a $700 million price tag per plane.

The United States has unveiled its latest high-tech strategic bomber – the B-21 Raider – which is capable of carrying a nuclear payload and can be flown without a crew on board.

The next-generation stealth bomber was rolled out at arm’s manufacturer Northrop Grumman’s facility in California during a flashy ceremony attended by top US officials on Friday.

The US Air Force plans to buy at least 100 of the B-21 aircraft, which comes with a $700m price tag per plane, a Northrop Grumman spokesperson said.

The unveiling of the new bombers comes at a time of heightened geopolitical tensions between the US, Russia and China amid the war in Ukraine and the territorial integrity of Taiwan.

Russian and Chinese strategic bombers flew a joint eight-hour patrol over the western Pacific on Wednesday in a display of ongoing military cooperation between the two nations.

China’s Defence Ministry called the mission a “routine” effort in bolstering defence ties with Russia.

Moscow and Beijing are also currently developing strategic stealth bombers – China’s Xian H-20 and Russia’s nuclear-capable Tupolev PAK DA – which are expected to compete with the B-21.

While the B-21 is capable of taking to the air without a pilot, the US Air Force said the aircraft is “provisioned for the possibility, but there has been no decision to fly without a crew”.

“The B-21 Raider is the first strategic bomber in more than three decades,” US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin said in a prepared statement at Friday’s event.

Austin touted the aircraft’s range and superior design.

“No other long-range bomber can match its efficiency,” Austin said.

“Fifty years of advances in low-observable technology have gone into this aircraft,” he said.

“Even the most sophisticated air defence systems will struggle to detect the B-21 in the sky.”

The B-21, which carries a similar “flying wing” shape to its predecessor, will be capable of carrying conventional and nuclear weapons around the world using long-range and midair refuelling capabilities.

Northrop Grumman has hailed the new planes as “the backbone of our future bomber force”.

The aerospace and design company said the long-range bomber’s first flight is expected to take place in 2023.

Six of the long-range bombers are in various stages of assembly and testing at its facility in California.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/3/u-s-unveils-new-700m-high-tech-b-21-stealth-bomber
 
Maybe this thread should be re-named more accurately as Proxy-War 2. Since the main protagonists aren't actually putting their men/women/LGBTQ on the frontlines.
 
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