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Cricket is now a ‘sissy’s game’, no aggression left: Andy Roberts

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] just to be clear ... I don't think you are trying to imply that whatever the pay structure was during the 80s ( as Per Greenidge himself ... he got paid only if he played and obviously no contract what so ever ) resulted in same participation levels at the FC and lower levels ... Right ?

I would post that article but it is on Cricinfo ... but easy to locate through Gordon Greenidge's player page on CI .. scroll down to the link for articles and the first article dated Jan 2017.

He still kept playing because that was the best job he could do & highest he could earn. And he was picked because he was still better than others.

Regarding motivation, I tell you another story - once Kinshasa Bikele or Moses Kiptanui (or some one Kenyan world champion) was asked - what is the secret for Kenya to produce such wonderful middle distance runners virtually from no system or financial motivation; when West is failing to do so with best level facilities & finiacial back ups.

Answer was - one part is genetics, which we are born with; second part is the system - our kids starts day to compete with lions & gazzles & rhinos just to run for saving life; third part is motivation - an athelatics medal can give us a job in police or army which'll give us the hope to raise our kids in school, to feed them 3 times a day & to keep them under shed. On top of that an Olympic medal can land us in the dream land of Europe or North America.

Motivation in sports is a bit different than doing 9 to 5 job - it was always like that. Fortunately for current generation, it pays them in 8 digit.
 
Well talking about aggression, i'll throw this in.

Can someone tell Hasan Ali to stop blowing kisses to the batsman, it was embarrassing when Riaz did it, don't need him doing it too.

Not sure what it is with pakistani players always blowing kisses.
 
Just a reminder for people who have missed the point:

Sir Andy Roberts was MEASURED to bowl at:

159.49 km/h in 1975

157.4 km/h in 1976

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

So he is well entitled to comment on medium pacers bowling at 135K. Because he was 25K faster than the likes of Steyn or Gabriel, and he was almost 10 K faster than Starc.

It's not a claim. It's a fact.
 
iam hearing this for the first time that Waqar and Marshall bowled similar .... Marshall like most WI fast bowlers was a back of the length bowler whereas Waqar was a pitch it up and make it swing bowler with significantly higher speed. He could also reverse it. Their runup and actions are also very different. And I don't understand what overlapping careers has to do with Waqar's speed.
Actually you are completely wrong. You're showing your age!

The genius of Malcolm Marshall was that he wasn't a back of a length bowler. He was far too short to be.

He was a supremely skilled swing and cut bowler like Sir Richard Hadlee, only quicker. Until about 1988 he bowled a full length and hooped it around at high pace.

But in the period 1981-1983 he was very, very quick indeed. Well into the 150's. So when the seam went flat and the ball lost its shine in that period he would go round the wicket and lift the ball into the ribs of the batsman.

By the way, Colin Croft and Sylvester Clarke are the ONLY two back of a length West Indies bowlers that I can remember. The whole point of Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose and Ian Bishop was that they bowled a good length but still got extreme lift, so the batsman could not drive or even play a forward defensive, even though the length of the ball should have permitted it.

If you watch Michael Holding's 6-92 and 8-58 at The Oval in 1976, most of the key wickets were bowled or LBW. He just bowled full and very fast indeed - 155-165K - on a slow, flat wicket on which Viv Richards hit 292 and Dennis Amiss his 203.
 
Just a reminder for people who have missed the point:

Sir Andy Roberts was MEASURED to bowl at:

159.49 km/h in 1975

157.4 km/h in 1976

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

So he is well entitled to comment on medium pacers bowling at 135K. Because he was 25K faster than the likes of Steyn or Gabriel, and he was almost 10 K faster than Starc.

It's not a claim. It's a fact.

Not a fact till there is a footage we all can see ... You got one ? Don't think so. The next best is the footage I posted earlier of Andy Roberts bowling in the same time period where he looks distinctly pedestrian. No wonder every one has quietly ignored that post.

Here is the link (for the 3rd time ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60vyDMSQrwI
 
I responded to [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] post ... and there is a very good reason he did not respond ... because he has no evidence in the form of a video clip to go with those fanciful speeds.

However I did post a video of Roberts bowling from 1975 in Post#54 above ... here it is again : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60vyDMSQrwI

you can see roberts bowling in the first 2 mins or so and if you think that he is bowling above 150Ks it is just ludicrous and sorry to say but there can be no honest discussion that can be had.



What kind of logic is this ? Sorry but I cannot take this seriously. 2 Bowlers bowled in the same time span therefore both bowled at the same speed ? I mean WTH .

If you want to debate you must do so based on some credible verifiable evidence otherwise I could quite easily type the opposite of what you have. I am well aware of the long stories written about Marshall and other 80s bowlers. You don't have to rehash them here. I know my cricket history. Unlike you I don't buy anything unless I can verify it myself..




it is one thing to have intent but quite another to back that up as that requires skill ... a very good example is K. Srikkanth who played in the 80s .... his motto was to go after the bowling but it worked only on few occasions ... compare that to Sehwag who had the intent + skill to really excel at that kind of attacking batting.
When it comes to speed and talking about refutable sources. The same sources who say that Waqar was 150kph say that Marshall bowled the same speed...if Waqar bowled that speed (which was proven), then I'd logically believe the person who said so. Unless in 2 years these 'oldies' form some oldies bias lol. I'd take that opinion over someone who cherry picks both sources and videos. If you think one balls every delivery 150kph plus then you really are the person one has no business having discussions with.

I did not call Sehwag a FTB, of which he did plenty. He was a brutal batsman and is rightly rated as a great, I don't see why that's in discussion here? Sehwag was brutal vs the best spinners of all time so it doesn't matter if you bring in current modern day ones or olden day ones because he will clobber both so.....? This srikkanth kid is not rated so I fail to see the point of bringing him in and the point of your entire illogical paragraph? Why will you bring a mediocre 80s batsman and compare him with one of the best openers of the 00s era? Why not bring in Graeme Pollock or Barry Richards who too went after the bowling and had intent? I don't obviously rate them as the old men do due to low amounts of international feats however both batsmen smashed around good bowlers due to ability. Of course Sehwag was better in your eyes tho lol, he's not from the 80s which means he must've been athletic, professional, greatest ever, Indian beast etc... lol.
 
Old timer of every sports say the same crap.

Now adays cricket is more technical. Its not about bowling fast anymore. You could get spanked for bowling fast if your dont have line.

Batsmen need to be protected. At the end of the day, sixes and fours provide more entertainment then chin music.

Gaps are needed. This guy is talking nonsense. Look what happened when we had back to back games in PSL 1. Everyone was getting injured.

What a poor post. Batsmen needs to be protected? Lols, they are mostly playing on roads nowadays, and have all the equipment to protect them. Back in days, uncovered pitches, not much protection at all, it was back then you needed technique. Guys like Afridi and Pollard who smash bowlers all over the place now (recent time) would not survive one ball back then.

I agree former players sometimes talk nonesense but you guys here have made it a norm here that whenever a former player opens his mouth it's crap coming out and that is really disrespectful from armchair warriors.
 
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When it comes to speed and talking about refutable sources. The same sources who say that Waqar was 150kph say that Marshall bowled the same speed...if Waqar bowled that speed (which was proven), then I'd logically believe the person who said so. Unless in 2 years these 'oldies' form some oldies bias lol. I'd take that opinion over someone who cherry picks both sources and videos. If you think one balls every delivery 150kph plus then you really are the person one has no business having discussions with.

I did not call Sehwag a FTB, of which he did plenty. He was a brutal batsman and is rightly rated as a great, I don't see why that's in discussion here? Sehwag was brutal vs the best spinners of all time so it doesn't matter if you bring in current modern day ones or olden day ones because he will clobber both so.....? This srikkanth kid is not rated so I fail to see the point of bringing him in and the point of your entire illogical paragraph? Why will you bring a mediocre 80s batsman and compare him with one of the best openers of the 00s era? Why not bring in Graeme Pollock or Barry Richards who too went after the bowling and had intent? I don't obviously rate them as the old men do due to low amounts of international feats however both batsmen smashed around good bowlers due to ability. Of course Sehwag was better in your eyes tho lol, he's not from the 80s which means he must've been athletic, professional, greatest ever, Indian beast etc... lol.

Good work on blatantly ignoring the video again. I don't consider any experts rating either Waqar or Marshall or anyone else. If you want to continue this discussion it has to be based on actual evidence that both can analyze. If not thanks for your time.
 
He still kept playing because that was the best job he could do & highest he could earn. And he was picked because he was still better than others.

Regarding motivation, I tell you another story - once Kinshasa Bikele or Moses Kiptanui (or some one Kenyan world champion) was asked - what is the secret for Kenya to produce such wonderful middle distance runners virtually from no system or financial motivation; when West is failing to do so with best level facilities & finiacial back ups.

Answer was - one part is genetics, which we are born with; second part is the system - our kids starts day to compete with lions & gazzles & rhinos just to run for saving life; third part is motivation - an athelatics medal can give us a job in police or army which'll give us the hope to raise our kids in school, to feed them 3 times a day & to keep them under shed. On top of that an Olympic medal can land us in the dream land of Europe or North America.

Motivation in sports is a bit different than doing 9 to 5 job - it was always like that. Fortunately for current generation, it pays them in 8 digit.

Gotta disagree. Money is a great motivator. For many its a necessity. numerous examples of players who have preferred IPL$ over the supposed pride in national colors is far too many. Another case is the current dispute that CA is dealing.
 
AR sounding very bitter.
Don't you think that when you've been measured at 159.45 that you are qualified to criticise people like Steyn or Starc who can't manage two consecutive deliveries over 145K without breaking down?
 
Good work on blatantly ignoring the video again. I don't consider any experts rating either Waqar or Marshall or anyone else. If you want to continue this discussion it has to be based on actual evidence that both can analyze. If not thanks for your time.

Exactly.

You refuse to accept any high measurements made with technology from before the 21st century, and then you say "you see, nobody was fast before the 21st century."

The last time I saw an era of fast bowling as slow as the current one was when official cricket was missing the Packer players in 77-79. Before that you're looking at the period between Rev Sir Wes Hall and John Snow and Dennis Lillee.

Sir Andy Roberts doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

Firstly, he was measured at 159.45.

Secondly, when you include his SuperTest wickets, he finished with 252 Test wickets, meaning he retired level with Brian Statham as the all-time third highest fast bowling wicket taker in history in Test cricket.

He is a bona fide ATG as well as being less than 2 km/h slower than the fastest bowler ever recorded in world history, Sylvester Clarke.
 
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Exactly.

You refuse to accept any high measurements made with technology from before the 21st century, and then you say "you see, nobody was fast before the 21st century."

The last time I saw an era of fast bowling as slow as the current one was when official cricket was missing the Packer players in 77-79. Before that you're looking at the period between Rev Sir Wes Hall and John Snow and Dennis Lillee.

Sir Andy Roberts doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

Firstly, he was measured at 159.45.

Secondly, when you include his SuperTest wickets, he finished with 252 Test wickets, meaning he retired level with Brian Statham as the all-time third highest fast bowling wicket taker in history in Test cricket.

He is a bona fide ATG as well as being less than 2 km/h slower than the fastest bowler ever recorded in world history, Sylvester Clarke.

Did you find the video footage yet? Guess not. I will be happy to discuss once you find it. Until then it remains a cock and bull story.
 
While the entire Caribbean is going gaga over Alzarri Joseph, who appears a rare positive emerging from the region, fellow Antiguan and former West Indies fast bowling great Andy Roberts refuses to even consider him an out and out fast bowler.

“He is not fast. No, he is not fast. He bowls medium pace at 85 and 86 miles. What some of these guys need to do is speak to people, especially those from the past, and learn about their methods of training which made them bowl quick,” says Roberts.

Joseph, 20, was a member of the squad which beat India in the final of the 2016 U-19 World Cup and graduated to the senior side soon after.

Killing aggression

Roberts, the Antigua’s leader of the lethal West Indies bowling quartet in the 1970s and 80s, says cricket is becoming a ‘sissy’s game’ as the administrators are doing their best to weed out aggression.

“We don’t have enough pacers in the world. No one’s bowling fast because rules for short-pitched bowling have changed, batsmen are fully protected. The rules of the game are cutting aggression. You cannot even stare hard at the batsmen else they would fine you. They are taking all the aggression out of the game.

“What part of cricket is gentle? Let me ask you, women are playing, is it a female’s game? No. People who make all these rules make them sissy’s game,” he adds.

“As a spectator what do you like to see, aggression between batsman and a fast bowler. Cricket, when I played, wasn’t for the chicken-hearted, it was for people with a lion’s heart. Not anymore.”

I agree with most of what he said here. Administrators are killing the most premium commodity of Cricket, fast bowler. Part of this has to do with Indian Cricketing Culture, Cricket in the hand of Indian fans(they are steering the evolution of Cricket in many ways), has become a sissy sports in many ways. No matter how much money India earns from Cricket, they will never produced fast bowlers as long as Tendular, Dohni, Kohli type players are there Gods. They want to make things easy for their Gods. Aab Ain Say Agay Bhiee baroo, dream big :facepalm:

AUS and WI were different, they produced high quality seamer and batsmen at the same time. Cricket is winner when there is a contest between ball and bat, right now bowlers are thrown out of the equation.

Also, chin music is much harder than hitting boundaries on flat decks, not to mention lot more entertaining. That's why AUS fans(not just AUSes, fans all over) remember Johnson Ashes more than random T20 WC or IPL type leagues or even winning WC
 
They averaged 23 in the 2000s and 2010s when the odds were against them.

Which is beyond the "Sir" brigade who are whingeing about today's conditions even without taking the field.

End of story.

You haven't even started the story. You can start by answering my question.
 
Exactly.

You refuse to accept any high measurements made with technology from before the 21st century, and then you say "you see, nobody was fast before the 21st century."

The last time I saw an era of fast bowling as slow as the current one was when official cricket was missing the Packer players in 77-79. Before that you're looking at the period between Rev Sir Wes Hall and John Snow and Dennis Lillee.

Sir Andy Roberts doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

Firstly, he was measured at 159.45.

Secondly, when you include his SuperTest wickets, he finished with 252 Test wickets, meaning he retired level with Brian Statham as the all-time third highest fast bowling wicket taker in history in Test cricket.

He is a bona fide ATG as well as being less than 2 km/h slower than the fastest bowler ever recorded in world history, Sylvester Clarke.


That sounds incredibly blummin' quick. I never saw Sir Andy bowl. How did they measure speed in those days - with high-speed cameras?

I think it reasonable to assume that fast bowler speeds are up by 10% since the end of WW2, in line with sprinter speeds.
 
That sounds incredibly blummin' quick. I never saw Sir Andy bowl. How did they measure speed in those days - with high-speed cameras?

I think it reasonable to assume that fast bowler speeds are up by 10% since the end of WW2, in line with sprinter speeds.
The fastest men's 100 m in the 1980's was 9.79: the record now is 9.58.

The fastest women's 200 m in the 1980's was 21.34: it's still the world record.

So men's sprinting has improved by 2% whereas women's sprinting hasn't improved at all.

I might agree about a 10% increase in speed since 1945, but I suspect that due to a combination of factors (steroids, fewer international matches, more running and less gym work) I think there has been a slight reduction in pace since the 1980's.

Packer, of course, had introduced full time professionalism by 1978.

Nobody has asked, but I think there is a reason why the fastest bowler ever measured and the fastest women's 200m runner of all were both dead before the age of 45. Too many steroids messes up your body.
 
Did you find the video footage yet? Guess not. I will be happy to discuss once you find it. Until then it remains a cock and bull story.

We know video footage of all those games isn't available, as it was pre-youtube etc and it's stored by the studios, if at all.

Just to follow your logic- do you accept as fact ANYTHING without video footage? Cooks landing in Australia? The battle of Hastings? Einstein coming up with his theory of relativity- after all, we have no footage of these? But we DO have firsthand accounts & evidence of them, a bit like Andy Roberts...
 
We know video footage of all those games isn't available, as it was pre-youtube etc and it's stored by the studios, if at all.

Just to follow your logic- do you accept as fact ANYTHING without video footage? Cooks landing in Australia? The battle of Hastings? Einstein coming up with his theory of relativity- after all, we have no footage of these? But we DO have firsthand accounts & evidence of them, a bit like Andy Roberts...


depends on credibility and authenticity. there are too many question marks about that speed measurements. And BTW I have posted a clip of Roberts bowling from the same year and it is very obvious that he is very ordinary bowler which is why none of the usual suspects are even willing to comment about that video. Here it is again for the 4th time perhaps you will give me a straight answer to the question of whether that looks like a 155K bowler ... Link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60vyDMSQrwI

Also Do you believe everything that is written about older era cricketers ? I JUST dont and I have proven that numerous time (Ask Junaids) using simple technical analysis using available footage.
 
Another guy hyped to the moon and whose opinion is law because few oldies romanticize about "the good old days".

Bet he bowled a 140 k delivery once in his life yet is taking on bechara Alzaarri who is just starting to make a name for himself. Okay so you don't think he's as good as you apparently, but why put him down? Imagine if the kid reads this and feels bad about himself.

Would've loved to face him in the nets, teach him a lesson - no helmet.
 
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Actually you are completely wrong. You're showing your age!

The genius of Malcolm Marshall was that he wasn't a back of a length bowler. He was far too short to be.

He was a supremely skilled swing and cut bowler like Sir Richard Hadlee, only quicker. Until about 1988 he bowled a full length and hooped it around at high pace.

But in the period 1981-1983 he was very, very quick indeed. Well into the 150's. So when the seam went flat and the ball lost its shine in that period he would go round the wicket and lift the ball into the ribs of the batsman.

By the way, Colin Croft and Sylvester Clarke are the ONLY two back of a length West Indies bowlers that I can remember. The whole point of Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose and Ian Bishop was that they bowled a good length but still got extreme lift, so the batsman could not drive or even play a forward defensive, even though the length of the ball should have permitted it.

If you watch Michael Holding's 6-92 and 8-58 at The Oval in 1976, most of the key wickets were bowled or LBW. He just bowled full and very fast indeed - 155-165K - on a slow, flat wicket on which Viv Richards hit 292 and Dennis Amiss his 203.

Marshall was probably the most cunning WI bowlers, ahead of Andy. What you mentioned here was probably explained best in his 7/22 at Old Traford. Also, on a dad slow SCG track his 29-12-34-5 (?) was the meanest ever fast medium bowling that I have seen. Because of his skills, he is probably among very few fast bowlers in history who was almost unplayable in IND in that 1983-84 series. Awesome fast bowler - Lille, Marshall & Wasim are 3 unique fast bowlers that we'll never, ever see again.
 
Andy Roberts will be murdered too in this era. He will have no answer to Yuvraj's flicks against Yorkers, straight drive against Yorkers, pull shots against bouncers and Dhoni's helicopter shots against Yorkers. Modern day players play 150 plus km/hr bowling much better compared to the batsmen from the 70's to 90's.
 
Andy Roberts will be murdered too in this era. He will have no answer to Yuvraj's flicks against Yorkers, straight drive against Yorkers, pull shots against bouncers and Dhoni's helicopter shots against Yorkers. Modern day players play 150 plus km/hr bowling much better compared to the batsmen from the 70's to 90's.

Andy Roberts bowled a typical over like I will list in a minute. Please feel free to explain which flicks and helicopter shots each ball would be punished with.

Whether Tests or 60 over ODIs there is no circle, no limit on bouncers, no fielding restrictions and no balls are deemed to be wides unless they are outside leg stump.

Ball 1: bouncer aimed at chin, 142K
Ball 2: full delivery outside off, 148K
Ball 3: bouncer aimed at neck, 144K
Ball 4: full delivery outside off, 152K
Ball 5: bouncer aimed at nose, 145K
Ball 6: fast bouncer aimed at chin, 159K

That was a typical Roberts over. You knew that one bouncer would be frighteningly quick, so you tried to stay on the back foot, and often got out edging one of the full deliveries with no footwork.

His change of pace bouncer was the fastest bouncer that I have ever seen. Remember, most bowlers bowl their bouncer 10K slower than normal deliveries.
 
159 kph is an understatement. I recall "Sir" Andy Roberts bowling at 175 kph with his non-dominant hand and was also able to walk on water like Jesus.
 
Andy Roberts will be murdered too in this era. He will have no answer to Yuvraj's flicks against Yorkers, straight drive against Yorkers, pull shots against bouncers and Dhoni's helicopter shots against Yorkers. Modern day players play 150 plus km/hr bowling much better compared to the batsmen from the 70's to 90's.

They also leave great big gates because the pitches are so slow and true these days, they can get away with it. Put Yuvraj and Dhoni on a seventies flier at Barbados or a green mamba at Trent Bridge and they would get gloved to slip by a lifter, or lose their off-pole or be lbw in half a minute.

Not everything gets better with time. The game changes and skills are lost as well as gained. There are different tactics for different conditions.
 
The feats of the old players are like religious miracles. With advancement in technology, religious miracles vanished. You won't see anyone turning his staff into a snake or splitting a river into two. These things only happened at a time and age where these miracles were not verifiable.

Similarly, bowlers were able to bowl at the speed of light and batsmen were able to perform superhuman feats at a time when technology was not advance enough to verify the hearsay.

In the age of advance technology, Internet and social media, the modern players do not have the luxury of living of myths that exaggerated the careers of the past greats. No one will be able to get away by claiming that Starc bowled at 170 kph and Kohli was able to hit 150m sixes, because these things can be very easily verified now.

However, the other end of the spectrum is extreme as well, i.e. those who claim that the past players will be useless in the modern era. A player of an era is simply a product of that era; very few players like Viv Richards etc., manage to transcend eras.

As a result, great players of every era are pretty much in the same class because they all had the ability to rise and shine above competition. To say that modern batsmen are rubbish compared to the old era batsmen is utter nonsense, and the reverse is true as well.

Nonetheless, to go back to the religion analogy, the sad devotion of some people to the greats of the past is very much like religious fanaticism, because both sets completely ignore any logic and rationale that exposes their blind beliefs.
 
They also leave great big gates because the pitches are so slow and true these days, they can get away with it. Put Yuvraj and Dhoni on a seventies flier at Barbados or a green mamba at Trent Bridge and they would get gloved to slip by a lifter, or lose their off-pole or be lbw in half a minute.

Not everything gets better with time. The game changes and skills are lost as well as gained. There are different tactics for different conditions.

And how would the bowlers of the seventies react to an era of flat pitches, machine-made balls, big bats, short boundaries, field restrictions and bouncer restrictions?

The problem with discounting the achievements of modern batsmen is that the logic is not consistently applied. If modern batsmen would have struggled in a bowling-friendly era, the old bowlers would also have struggled in the batting-friendly era of today.

If a modern batsman averaging 50 today would have averaged 40 in the seventies, then we can also say that a bowler from that era who averaged 20 would probably have averaged 30 today, which negates the argument that quality bowlers have become extinct.

Another problem with Dhoni-Yuvraj analogy is that they cannot be teleported to the seventies with the same skill-set; their modern skills and modern techniques are simply a product of the era that they play in. If they would have been born thirty years earlier, their techniques and skills would have been relevant to that time, and since they had the talent to rise above their competition in this era even though the others had the same advantages and disadvantages, it is safe to say that they would have risen above their competition in other eras as well.

Similarly, great bowlers of the past would have thrived in this era as well because they would have adapted to the skills that are relevant for modern bowlers to succeed.

It is time for people to move on from meaningless cross-era comparisons and stop berating modern or old players subject to their bias.
 
159 kph is an understatement. I recall "Sir" Andy Roberts bowling at 175 kph with his non-dominant hand and was also able to walk on water like Jesus.
Two completely separate measurements a year apart measured Sir Andy Roberts at:

159.7
157.4

So I don't think those speeds can be denied.

And yes, he was considerably slower than Jeff Thomson.

I've watched a little baseball on this current trip to the US. Pitchers just stand still and throw. There is no way they are as quick as the very fastest bowlers in cricket.
 
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And how would the bowlers of the seventies react to an era of flat pitches, machine-made balls, big bats, short boundaries, field restrictions and bouncer restrictions?

The problem with discounting the achievements of modern batsmen is that the logic is not consistently applied. If modern batsmen would have struggled in a bowling-friendly era, the old bowlers would also have struggled in the batting-friendly era of today.

If a modern batsman averaging 50 today would have averaged 40 in the seventies, then we can also say that a bowler from that era who averaged 20 would probably have averaged 30 today, which negates the argument that quality bowlers have become extinct.

Another problem with Dhoni-Yuvraj analogy is that they cannot be teleported to the seventies with the same skill-set; their modern skills and modern techniques are simply a product of the era that they play in. If they would have been born thirty years earlier, their techniques and skills would have been relevant to that time, and since they had the talent to rise above their competition in this era even though the others had the same advantages and disadvantages, it is safe to say that they would have risen above their competition in other eras as well.

Similarly, great bowlers of the past would have thrived in this era as well because they would have adapted to the skills that are relevant for modern bowlers to succeed.

It is time for people to move on from meaningless cross-era comparisons and stop berating modern or old players subject to their bias.

Whenever you aren't on a delusional anti Saffer rant or predicting the end of Pakistan cricket,you're surprisingly insightful.
 
The feats of the old players are like religious miracles. With advancement in technology, religious miracles vanished. You won't see anyone turning his staff into a snake or splitting a river into two. These things only happened at a time and age where these miracles were not verifiable.

Similarly, bowlers were able to bowl at the speed of light and batsmen were able to perform superhuman feats at a time when technology was not advance enough to verify the hearsay.

In the age of advance technology, Internet and social media, the modern players do not have the luxury of living of myths that exaggerated the careers of the past greats. No one will be able to get away by claiming that Starc bowled at 170 kph and Kohli was able to hit 150m sixes, because these things can be very easily verified now.

However, the other end of the spectrum is extreme as well, i.e. those who claim that the past players will be useless in the modern era. A player of an era is simply a product of that era; very few players like Viv Richards etc., manage to transcend eras.

As a result, great players of every era are pretty much in the same class because they all had the ability to rise and shine above competition. To say that modern batsmen are rubbish compared to the old era batsmen is utter nonsense, and the reverse is true as well.

Nonetheless, to go back to the religion analogy, the sad devotion of some people to the greats of the past is very much like religious fanaticism, because both sets completely ignore any logic and rationale that exposes their blind beliefs.


Mamoon, I don't know if you have noticed but not ONE single poster here who is a fan of these said cricketers from 70s and 80s has ever responded to the point you and I have raised about the fictional tales and the fact that older ERA players would suffer in Modern ERA because of the incorrect assumption that pitches are flat now.

Just a few days ago I posted footage from the famous Headingley Test of 1981 and asked what is sooo great about this pitch which looks bone dry and looks exactly like any pitch today ? I got one response from [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] who acknowledged that it was no different but alas he is now back to the same old tune of old is better !

in their haste to "Prove" that everything was bigger, better and awesome back in the day the usual supporters of these cricketers went overboard in claiming that pitches were lush green and bowlers superhuman ( could split a river to use your analogy lol ) .

So now they find themselves in a pickle and the only way to get out is by using the usual trick of producing "Certificates of achievements" from cricketers of that same era or vested interests ... talk about self promotion lol.

But jeez that was some cracking post !
 
Mamoon, I don't know if you have noticed but not ONE single poster here who is a fan of these said cricketers from 70s and 80s has ever responded to the point you and I have raised about the fictional tales and the fact that older ERA players would suffer in Modern ERA because of the incorrect assumption that pitches are flat now.

Just a few days ago I posted footage from the famous Headingley Test of 1981 and asked what is sooo great about this pitch which looks bone dry and looks exactly like any pitch today ? I got one response from [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] who acknowledged that it was no different but alas he is now back to the same old tune of old is better !

in their haste to "Prove" that everything was bigger, better and awesome back in the day the usual supporters of these cricketers went overboard in claiming that pitches were lush green and bowlers superhuman ( could split a river to use your analogy lol ) .

So now they find themselves in a pickle and the only way to get out is by using the usual trick of producing "Certificates of achievements" from cricketers of that same era or vested interests ... talk about self promotion lol.

But jeez that was some cracking post !

Of course they are not able to respond to facts. How else can they get away with their myths and illogical beliefs? "X said this about Y" and "Z saw Y do this". That's the only way past players can be put on a pedestal that they do not deserve. Unfortunately for the contemporary players, they will not become bigger and better over the years.
 
Andy Roberts bowled a typical over like I will list in a minute. Please feel free to explain which flicks and helicopter shots each ball would be punished with.

Whether Tests or 60 over ODIs there is no circle, no limit on bouncers, no fielding restrictions and no balls are deemed to be wides unless they are outside leg stump.

Ball 1: bouncer aimed at chin, 142K
Ball 2: full delivery outside off, 148K
Ball 3: bouncer aimed at neck, 144K
Ball 4: full delivery outside off, 152K
Ball 5: bouncer aimed at nose, 145K
Ball 6: fast bouncer aimed at chin, 159K

That was a typical Roberts over. You knew that one bouncer would be frighteningly quick, so you tried to stay on the back foot, and often got out edging one of the full deliveries with no footwork.

His change of pace bouncer was the fastest bouncer that I have ever seen. Remember, most bowlers bowl their bouncer 10K slower than normal deliveries.

Have you seen Yuvraj bat in full flow ? given your disdain for Indian cricket and ODI cricket in particular I think it is safe to say that you have not ... which explains this post.

Secondly even today you can bowl 6 balls at shoulder level height, set Test match like fields in ODIs ( but nobody does for a good reason). but don't let these facts let you alter your outdated views.
 
Good work on blatantly ignoring the video again. I don't consider any experts rating either Waqar or Marshall or anyone else. If you want to continue this discussion it has to be based on actual evidence that both can analyze. If not thanks for your time.
I looked at the video, it's about as useful as showing me a video of a Dale Steyn spell where he's bowling 130-135, even tho he's capable of bowling 145+ so I don't see the point? You don't consider expert rating because you're too proud and dare I say ignorant to accept anyone else's view points. In those times, there were very little resources and the slight ones they do have, you only cherry pick what suits your agenda. I will happily take someones opinion who rate Marshall and Waqar similar since they've seen both play closely and if one bowls 150kph and another is claimed to bowl the same, I will accept it as there will be no apparent 'oldies bias' since careers overlap. There isn't much point discussing with you because you will keep asking for a video, then you will shift your argument to athleticism and whatnot and then you will shift back. It's a brick wall scenario. I can post a video too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMmKSR2Pfes here's michael holding bowling at a very similar technique to how Morne Morkel bowled here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otg2vKDPGzI. That spell by Morkel I watched live and it was very fast and bouncy...of course you will refute it however since it's not going to suit your agenda.
 
The feats of the old players are like religious miracles. With advancement in technology, religious miracles vanished. You won't see anyone turning his staff into a snake or splitting a river into two. These things only happened at a time and age where these miracles were not verifiable.

Similarly, bowlers were able to bowl at the speed of light and batsmen were able to perform superhuman feats at a time when technology was not advance enough to verify the hearsay.

In the age of advance technology, Internet and social media, the modern players do not have the luxury of living of myths that exaggerated the careers of the past greats. No one will be able to get away by claiming that Starc bowled at 170 kph and Kohli was able to hit 150m sixes, because these things can be very easily verified now.

However, the other end of the spectrum is extreme as well, i.e. those who claim that the past players will be useless in the modern era. A player of an era is simply a product of that era; very few players like Viv Richards etc., manage to transcend eras.

As a result, great players of every era are pretty much in the same class because they all had the ability to rise and shine above competition. To say that modern batsmen are rubbish compared to the old era batsmen is utter nonsense, and the reverse is true as well.

Nonetheless, to go back to the religion analogy, the sad devotion of some people to the greats of the past is very much like religious fanaticism, because both sets completely ignore any logic and rationale that exposes their blind beliefs.

I agree with your general narrative, one of his key point was administrative taking bowlers out of the game. Bowlers aggression(In Misbah's era, we had traded lambs for tigers, because of that mindset) is suppressed by ever increasing disciplinary rules, playing conditions (ground sizes, bat sizes, pitches ) are favoring batsmen more with passage of time. Which needs to be addressed, balance has to be restored.

WIs bowlers back in 70s/80s were not all about pace. Garner and Ambrose were not that pacy at all, but they were very tall and hence more successful in countries like AUS. Ambrose had 7/1 in Perth, its hard for 5'9-11" guy doing that even at 150 clicks. No Asian team has taken 3/4 6'-5" plus bowlers to AUS, to see how effective they were. Ishant Sharma was more successful than Waqar/Shoiab in AUS. So it was not always about pace for them.

What has happen between 70s/80s and now is that role of batsmen and bowlers are kind of reversed. Batsmen are more fearless (because of better protection, playing conditions favoring them) and bowlers are more defensive(defensive lengths, defensive fielding, drying up run was main focus of Misbah era), people care about lower eco. In T20, its dot balls are so vital(that variety balls have become a norm), lot like baseball, where whole focus is not getting hit. But high quality bowlers and batsmen still would have been relevant. Like back in those days, there were very few aggressive batsmen aka Viv, now pool of quality bowlers has been reduced and batsmen has increased. Not all aggressive batsmen of today would have thrived in that (70s/80s) era, same is true for fast bowlers from that era, few of them would have survived today...Making bowling not attractive or difficult is a bad strategic move by administrators, because its already a tough task(it not only requires skills, but strength and endurance), you want to make it easier not harder. As I said earlier it has lot to do with Indian cricket culture not able to produce quality fast bowlers. Most of the administrative steering in Cricket in last decade and half is done by same fan base and culture it creates... For administrators its about time to bring bowlers back into the game more, like they did in 90s, bringing back batsmen into the game, you always strive of bring balance between the two.

At the end of the day, most important thing in LOIs is winning tournaments. Even with playing conditions not favoring bowlers, still most tournaments are won at the back of bowlers. Last WC was won by Strac, this CT by Hasan, WT20 when SL won was at the back of Milanga, Pakistan won at the back of Gul, list goes on. I would not be surprise if 2019 WC is won by bowlers as well...Test Cricket is pre-dominantly bowlers game anyway, because you have to take wickets to win. India, went to extreme measure of doctoring pitches, like we saw in last 2/3 seasons, they go for two completely different conditions in test Vs LOIs/IPL, rank turners to roads ;-)
 
Mamoon, I don't know if you have noticed but not ONE single poster here who is a fan of these said cricketers from 70s and 80s has ever responded to the point you and I have raised about the fictional tales and the fact that older ERA players would suffer in Modern ERA because of the incorrect assumption that pitches are flat now.

Just a few days ago I posted footage from the famous Headingley Test of 1981 and asked what is sooo great about this pitch which looks bone dry and looks exactly like any pitch today ? I got one response from [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] who acknowledged that it was no different but alas he is now back to the same old tune of old is better !

in their haste to "Prove" that everything was bigger, better and awesome back in the day the usual supporters of these cricketers went overboard in claiming that pitches were lush green and bowlers superhuman ( could split a river to use your analogy lol ) .

So now they find themselves in a pickle and the only way to get out is by using the usual trick of producing "Certificates of achievements" from cricketers of that same era or vested interests ... talk about self promotion lol.

But jeez that was some cracking post !
To be fair, for Headingley'81 I didn't just agree that the pitch was no different to today but also:

1) I pointed out that the tails were weaker than today.

2) I pointed out that the Aussie middle order was weak.

I don't blindly applaud everything old. I just defend the greats of the 70's and 80's.

I watched the West Indies tour of England in 1976. And Michael Holding and Andy Roberts were seriously quick.

But I'd be the first to say that the Third quick (Wayne Daniel) was quick but had no skills, or that the fourth quick (Bernard Julien) bowled at 125-135K.

I agree that the weak links forty years ago were weak. But I know that Andy Roberts was much faster and much more skilful than any recent West Indies quick bowler.
 
I agree with Mamoon. Sometimes players from 70s/80s are hyped too much and modern day players are played down. Most ATGs would have adapted to whatever era they played in.
 
I agree with your general narrative, one of his key point was administrative taking bowlers out of the game. Bowlers aggression(In Misbah's era, we had traded lambs for tigers, because of that mindset) is suppressed by ever increasing disciplinary rules, playing conditions (ground sizes, bat sizes, pitches ) are favoring batsmen more with passage of time. Which needs to be addressed, balance has to be restored.

WIs bowlers back in 70s/80s were not all about pace. Garner and Ambrose were not that pacy at all, but they were very tall and hence more successful in countries like AUS. Ambrose had 7/1 in Perth, its hard for 5'9-11" guy doing that even at 150 clicks. No Asian team has taken 3/4 6'-5" plus bowlers to AUS, to see how effective they were. Ishant Sharma was more successful than Waqar/Shoiab in AUS. So it was not always about pace for them.

What has happen between 70s/80s and now is that role of batsmen and bowlers are kind of reversed. Batsmen are more fearless (because of better protection, playing conditions favoring them) and bowlers are more defensive(defensive lengths, defensive fielding, drying up run was main focus of Misbah era), people care about lower eco. In T20, its dot balls are so vital(that variety balls have become a norm), lot like baseball, where whole focus is not getting hit. But high quality bowlers and batsmen still would have been relevant. Like back in those days, there were very few aggressive batsmen aka Viv, now pool of quality bowlers has been reduced and batsmen has increased. Not all aggressive batsmen of today would have thrived in that (70s/80s) era, same is true for fast bowlers from that era, few of them would have survived today...Making bowling not attractive or difficult is a bad strategic move by administrators, because its already a tough task(it not only requires skills, but strength and endurance), you want to make it easier not harder. As I said earlier it has lot to do with Indian cricket culture not able to produce quality fast bowlers. Most of the administrative steering in Cricket in last decade and half is done by same fan base and culture it creates... For administrators its about time to bring bowlers back into the game more, like they did in 90s, bringing back batsmen into the game, you always strive of bring balance between the two.

At the end of the day, most important thing in LOIs is winning tournaments. Even with playing conditions not favoring bowlers, still most tournaments are won at the back of bowlers. Last WC was won by Strac, this CT by Hasan, WT20 when SL won was at the back of Milanga, Pakistan won at the back of Gul, list goes on. I would not be surprise if 2019 WC is won by bowlers as well...Test Cricket is pre-dominantly bowlers game anyway, because you have to take wickets to win. India, went to extreme measure of doctoring pitches, like we saw in last 2/3 seasons, they go for two completely different conditions in test Vs LOIs/IPL, rank turners to roads ;-)
Top post, couldn't have said it better myself.

Also would like to state that the 80s must not be confused with the 90s as there was a good balance between bat and ball, which is why I rate it as a very good area. There were many ATG bowlers and also a good amount of ATG Batsmen too...Miandad,Viv,Border, Chappel, Gavaskar as opposed to 90s with ONLY Waugh, Sachin and Lara (??). [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] can expand here...
 
Top post, couldn't have said it better myself.

Also would like to state that the 80s must not be confused with the 90s as there was a good balance between bat and ball, which is why I rate it as a very good area. There were many ATG bowlers and also a good amount of ATG Batsmen too...Miandad,Viv,Border, Chappel, Gavaskar as opposed to 90s with ONLY Waugh, Sachin and Lara (??). [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] can expand here...
Batting in the 1990's was extremely strong actually.

Balls had bigger seams and were hand stitched and Day 1 wickets often had more grass than today.

But consider this list:

Brian Lara
Desmond Haynes
Carl Hooper
Mike Atherton
Martin Crowe
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammad Azharuddin
Rahul Dravid
Steve Waugh
Mark Waugh
Dean Jones
Inzamam
Aravinda De Silva
Jacques Kallis
Gary Kirsten

An average of 37 or so like Mike Atherton meant something!
 
To be fair, for Headingley'81 I didn't just agree that the pitch was no different to today but also:

1) I pointed out that the tails were weaker than today.

2) I pointed out that the Aussie middle order was weak.

I don't blindly applaud everything old. I just defend the greats of the 70's and 80's.

I watched the West Indies tour of England in 1976. And Michael Holding and Andy Roberts were seriously quick.

But I'd be the first to say that the Third quick (Wayne Daniel) was quick but had no skills, or that the fourth quick (Bernard Julien) bowled at 125-135K.

I agree that the weak links forty years ago were weak. But I know that Andy Roberts was much faster and much more skilful than any recent West Indies quick bowler.

See this is why I believe very little about stories of old era players (and its not just you who does this BTW) .... So at 6 yrs old what can you even remember let alone understand about cricket and fast bowling ?

For the discerning and evidence bound cricket nuts such things easily stand out and raise a red flag.
 
When I played without a helmet/ protective gear, I genuinely feared facing the ball. And the guys weren't even that fast.

There is no doubt that 70s and 80s were the golden age for pace bowlers. The rules favored them (no bouncer restriction per over) and so did the circumstances (helmets not being that prevalent.)
 
See this is why I believe very little about stories of old era players (and its not just you who does this BTW) .... So at 6 yrs old what can you even remember let alone understand about cricket and fast bowling ?

For the discerning and evidence bound cricket nuts such things easily stand out and raise a red flag.

You're quite right.

When I was six this looked pretty quick to me.......

 
This is England's legendary hardman Brian Close, the day after opening the batting against Andy Roberts and Michael Holding.

IMG_1371.jpg
 
You're quite right.

When I was six this looked pretty quick to me.......


no one can JUST simple cannot recall events from when you were 6 yrs old let alone be able to recall and and make a mental comparison with today. Just not happening.

This is England's legendary hardman Brian Close, the day after opening the batting against Andy Roberts and Michael Holding.

Anil Kumble broke Graeme Smiths ribs ... tell me something new.
 
no one can JUST simple cannot recall events from when you were 6 yrs old let alone be able to recall and and make a mental comparison with today.
Au contraire.

I was absolutely gutted yesterday to have written of Richards scoring 292 when I had watched it when I was six and it was 291.

And on a serious note, don't forget that the England team featured some of the greatest batsmen against express pace in history.

Brian Close was one, but this gentleman was the undisputed GOAT of all--time against extreme pace.......

IMG_1372.JPG

And no, with all due respect to Mohinder Amarnath, I'm not joking.
 
Tell me a sport where old timers don't claim their time in the sport was the best. It's just oldies trying to live in their former glory
 
Thommo to David Steele - what a player!

No wonder he won SPOTY in 1975.

I can't remember the last time a cricketer won it.

Legend!

 
Au contraire.

I was absolutely gutted yesterday to have written of Richards scoring 292 when I had watched it when I was six and it was 291.

Haven't I disproved you on this topic of memory recall from 6 yrs in the case of slip fielder standing back ?

You forget that others here have been six years old too ... there is no way any human can recall such events from such a young age and replay it 41 yrs later .. aint happening ... I certainly don't remember much at all from that age. Forget 6 yrs old ... I went to a FC match when I was 15-16 in my hometown featuring prominent players and I do not even remember the XI or the scores ... and this certainly didnt happen 40 yrs ago much less lol

But watch this Ted Talk by a scientist on how reliable is your memory --> https://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_loftus_the_fiction_of_memory#t-1031561


And on a serious note, don't forget that the England team featured some of the greatest batsmen against express pace in history.

Brian Close was one, but this gentleman was the undisputed GOAT of all--time against extreme pace.......

And no, with all due respect to Mohinder Amarnath, I'm not joking.

According to who ? What is the independent unbiased and factually corroborated version of events backed by proper evidence ? You must surely know the drill by now if you want me to accept these stories. Or should I disprove your views a few more times before you realize the faults of your methods ?
 
And how would the bowlers of the seventies react to an era of flat pitches, machine-made balls, big bats, short boundaries, field restrictions and bouncer restrictions?

The top ones would take wickets, though they would get hit for more fours due to greater batter strength. Lillee excelled at Melbourne which was an ultra-flattie.

My point is that a champion of one era would be a champion of any era.
 
Au contraire.

I was absolutely gutted yesterday to have written of Richards scoring 292 when I had watched it when I was six and it was 291.

And on a serious note, don't forget that the England team featured some of the greatest batsmen against express pace in history.

Brian Close was one, but this gentleman was the undisputed GOAT of all--time against extreme pace.......

And no, with all due respect to Mohinder Amarnath, I'm not joking.

So I looked up Stee;e's stats and chuckled .... a test career that lasted a grand total of 8 Tests of which 5 were against WI in Eng in 1976 .... bloody hell Jimmy played 10 Tests against WI IN WI alone ... and faced almost all of the WI fast bowlers of that time lol

So yet again a simple basic scrutiny highlights the problems of nostalgia driven cricket consumption.

IN B4 you start substituting county matches for Tests ... I can sooo see that coming !!

BTW real express pace with accuracy looks like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzNS2JgNxZE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLVazQ7IDk

Not like Andy Roberts bowling in high 130Ks to batsmen without helmets who are scared sh!tless ... so logically speaking the only sissy(using his own words) here is Roberts .
 
I looked at the video, it's about as useful as showing me a video of a Dale Steyn spell where he's bowling 130-135, even tho he's capable of bowling 145+ so I don't see the point?

The point is there actually exists footage of Steyn bowling at 145K. There is EXACTLY Zero footage of Roberts bowling at above 150K's. Empty claims don't count as evidence in real life. And before you get upset please realize that I have subjected Steyn or any modern bowler to the same yardstick -- footage or it did not happen.


You don't consider expert rating because you're too proud and dare I say ignorant to accept anyone else's view points. In those times, there were very little resources and the slight ones they do have, you only cherry pick what suits your agenda.

I have told you why I don't take their words as Gospel ... they are just simply not reliable. Best examples are of Jack Hobbs and Barry Richards batting .... there is no shortage of effusive praise about these 2 players ... once you actually watch their batting with your own eyes you JUST know you have been had. There is no better way to explain this than to live it. Go try it with a clear open mind and see if you don't feel cheated.

I will happily take someones opinion who rate Marshall and Waqar similar since they've seen both play closely and if one bowls 150kph and another is claimed to bowl the same, I will accept it as there will be no apparent 'oldies bias' since careers overlap. There isn't much point discussing with you because you will keep asking for a video, then you will shift your argument to athleticism and whatnot and then you will shift back. It's a brick wall scenario. I can post a video too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMmKSR2Pfes here's michael holding bowling at a very similar technique to how Morne Morkel bowled here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otg2vKDPGzI. That spell by Morkel I watched live and it was very fast and bouncy...of course you will refute it however since it's not going to suit your agenda.

You can believe in Santa Clauss ... don't let anyone stop you from doing so but don't go around trying to convince people that he is real !! This is how rigorous analysis works in real life professions and scenarios. Did you really expect other people to just take your words as fact ? Seriously ? What world do you live in.

And what agenda would that be when I put up Mikey and Roberts footage where they measured to be bowling well short of the claimed 150K's ? In my world it is called calling a spade as a spade !
 
Kids here before flatly discounting WIs of 70s/80s or Lillie-Thomo era, don't forget the Johnson's Ashes that happened just few years ago. A fully fit and passionate Johnson run havoc against English on flat wickets of Adelaide, I hope you were all old enough to remember that one. Half of the English side retired other half terrified, only by one bowler. WI has 3/4 bowlers like that all the time, even if one is rested, they had one or two more...Even now, if AUSes manage to play Strac, Cummins,Patty in one full series, they would be handful...WIs had extra motivation, they want to prove they are equal to or even better than their early masters, it was not just a game for them, that level of passion money or country alone cannot bring. That all started after they got hammering from Lille-Thomo in 1974/75, they were sledged with racial slurs and what not by crowd...

Thing about WIs bowlers was not just pace, but accuracy, and bouncy from fuller length. Hall mark of Marshal was rising delivery from good length, that is very difficult to leave or defend. Attack was going on and on, since they had too many of them...Also, when one guy gets hit, it sends shivering message to the dressing room, people are worried about their life than playing cricket, its like when you see accident on the road up close, its hard to think about speeding...

WI has shown not just in Cricket but else where as well, that they have immense athletic talent, just in last 10-15 years, amount of sprinters they have produce from such a small population is unreal. When you look at bolt, he defies everything, greatest of all, its hard to exaggerate Bolt in his time, he wins from Pros like Pros win from school boys...In 70s/80s that land was producing fast bowler of exceptional athletic strength and ability. Garner was 6'10" but use to stand in Gully/point, he was exceptional for his height, use to take impossible catches, not like Irfan, who never looked like a Athlete...

Amount of high quality fast bowlers WI has produced from 1975 to 1995 was way more than any other country or entire world has produced in two decades. Wickets were easy for bowlers before as well(even sticky wickets were lot harder for batsmen), actually wickets got flatter in hot English summer of 1975/76, like we saw last year in England. But it did not bother WI attack, they had little problem in Pakistan and India forget about west. AUS stopped playing them at Perth, where generally they greets the tourist, because match used to over in 3 days, with lot of pain, why bother playing... Its disingenuous to discard the greatest test team ever, these guys could have restarted that era again, even with protective gear, all they need is relax bouncer rules, that may not be all that necessary, Johnson terrorize English with same rules, I don't see how it would have been difficult of their pace battery.
 
Thommo to David Steele - what a player!

No wonder he won SPOTY in 1975.

I can't remember the last time a cricketer won it.

Legend!


Father bleep Christmas, as Thommo called him.

One of those fellas who didn't play much test cricket, but was picked for a specific job and did it very well.
 
Kids here before flatly discounting WIs of 70s/80s or Lillie-Thomo era, don't forget the Johnson's Ashes that happened just few years ago. A fully fit and passionate Johnson run havoc against English on flat wickets of Adelaide, I hope you were all old enough to remember that one. Half of the English side retired other half terrified, only by one bowler. WI has 3/4 bowlers like that all the time, even if one is rested, they had one or two more...Even now, if AUSes manage to play Strac, Cummins,Patty in one full series, they would be handful...WIs had extra motivation, they want to prove they are equal to or even better than their early masters, it was not just a game for them, that level of passion money or country alone cannot bring. That all started after they got hammering from Lille-Thomo in 1974/75, they were sledged with racial slurs and what not by crowd...

Thing about WIs bowlers was not just pace, but accuracy, and bouncy from fuller length. Hall mark of Marshal was rising delivery from good length, that is very difficult to leave or defend. Attack was going on and on, since they had too many of them...Also, when one guy gets hit, it sends shivering message to the dressing room, people are worried about their life than playing cricket, its like when you see accident on the road up close, its hard to think about speeding...

WI has shown not just in Cricket but else where as well, that they have immense athletic talent, just in last 10-15 years, amount of sprinters they have produce from such a small population is unreal. When you look at bolt, he defies everything, greatest of all, its hard to exaggerate Bolt in his time, he wins from Pros like Pros win from school boys...In 70s/80s that land was producing fast bowler of exceptional athletic strength and ability. Garner was 6'10" but use to stand in Gully/point, he was exceptional for his height, use to take impossible catches, not like Irfan, who never looked like a Athlete...

Amount of high quality fast bowlers WI has produced from 1975 to 1995 was way more than any other country or entire world has produced in two decades. Wickets were easy for bowlers before as well(even sticky wickets were lot harder for batsmen), actually wickets got flatter in hot English summer of 1975/76, like we saw last year in England. But it did not bother WI attack, they had little problem in Pakistan and India forget about west. AUS stopped playing them at Perth, where generally they greets the tourist, because match used to over in 3 days, with lot of pain, why bother playing... Its disingenuous to discard the greatest test team ever, these guys could have restarted that era again, even with protective gear, all they need is relax bouncer rules, that may not be all that necessary, Johnson terrorize English with same rules, I don't see how it would have been difficult of their pace battery.

I think, the fundamental gap is the perception of Alzery Joshep & Andy Roberts being of similar pace.

No one is denying the effect on a batting line-up, if you have 4 fast bowlers, relentlessly bowling at average 140KM+ with effort ball reaching 150KM+, sometimes 160KM+ ......... and add to that of the awkward bounce from good length for their capability to put heavy shoulders to bang it on the surface ........ and the skills of leg/off-cutters & accuracy of bouncers.

But, bring that 4 to say Mashrafee, Lakmal, Joshep & Anwar Ali level - it's not a big problem, though all 4 can reach average 130KM ....... In short - MoJo bowled at 155KM pace, Holding bowled at 135KM pace :( - it's easily explainable now.
 
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So I looked up Stee;e's stats and chuckled .... a test career that lasted a grand total of 8 Tests of which 5 were against WI in Eng in 1976 .... bloody hell Jimmy played 10 Tests against WI IN WI alone ... and faced almost all of the WI fast bowlers of that time lol

So yet again a simple basic scrutiny highlights the problems of nostalgia driven cricket consumption.

IN B4 you start substituting county matches for Tests ... I can sooo see that coming !!

BTW real express pace with accuracy looks like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzNS2JgNxZE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLVazQ7IDk

Not like Andy Roberts bowling in high 130Ks to batsmen without helmets who are scared sh!tless ... so logically speaking the only sissy(using his own words) here is Roberts .
David Steele's entire Test career was against pace attacks led by bowlers who were scientifically measured in the 154-161K speed range.

No offence, but that means more than your baseless 130's claim.

And in both the SuperTests and 3/4 of the Tests that Andy Roberts played, the batsmen DID have helmets - which of course is why the standard of batting against express pace fell so sharply. Once it wasn't going to kill you, people paid less attention to practising how to play bouncers.
 
So I looked up Stee;e's stats and chuckled .... a test career that lasted a grand total of 8 Tests of which 5 were against WI in Eng in 1976 .... bloody hell Jimmy played 10 Tests against WI IN WI alone ... and faced almost all of the WI fast bowlers of that time lol

So yet again a simple basic scrutiny highlights the problems of nostalgia driven cricket consumption.

IN B4 you start substituting county matches for Tests ... I can sooo see that coming !!

BTW real express pace with accuracy looks like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzNS2JgNxZE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLVazQ7IDk

Not like Andy Roberts bowling in high 130Ks to batsmen without helmets who are scared sh!tless ... so logically speaking the only sissy(using his own words) here is Roberts .

The point is there actually exists footage of Steyn bowling at 145K. There is EXACTLY Zero footage of Roberts bowling at above 150K's. Empty claims don't count as evidence in real life. And before you get upset please realize that I have subjected Steyn or any modern bowler to the same yardstick -- footage or it did not happen.




I have told you why I don't take their words as Gospel ... they are just simply not reliable. Best examples are of Jack Hobbs and Barry Richards batting .... there is no shortage of effusive praise about these 2 players ... once you actually watch their batting with your own eyes you JUST know you have been had. There is no better way to explain this than to live it. Go try it with a clear open mind and see if you don't feel cheated.



You can believe in Santa Clauss ... don't let anyone stop you from doing so but don't go around trying to convince people that he is real !! This is how rigorous analysis works in real life professions and scenarios. Did you really expect other people to just take your words as fact ? Seriously ? What world do you live in.

And what agenda would that be when I put up Mikey and Roberts footage where they measured to be bowling well short of the claimed 150K's ? In my world it is called calling a spade as a spade !

You're on shaky ground here.

Ten months ago, South Africa hosted New Zealand. As we discussed at the time, Cricinfo showed upwards of four Steyn balls per over in the 140s.

But the SuperSport TV coverage had its own speed gun, on which Steyn failed to bowl a single ball over 139K in the whole series.

You need to stop cherry picking your sources, and you need to stop rejecting all measurements for which you can't see twenty-first century camera work. Because your prerequisites give you an absolute bias towards contemporary events.

If you watch the 1954 and 1974 World Cups you see that Ferenc Puskas and Johan Cruyff were geniuses whose vision and skills are still breathtaking now. But you would say that Lee Cattermole is better because there is HD TV coverage of him!
 
Cricket needs to get Americanized if it wants to become a global game, it lacks the physicality and the American competitiveness to appeal to a wider audience.
 
I think, the fundamental gap is the perception of Alzery Joshep & Andy Roberts being of similar pace.

No one is denying the effect on a batting line-up, if you have 4 fast bowlers, relentlessly bowling at average 140KM+ with effort ball reaching 150KM+, sometimes 160KM+ ......... and add to that of the awkward bounce from good length for their capability to put heavy shoulders to bang it on the surface ........ and the skills of leg/off-cutters & accuracy of bouncers.

But, bring that 4 to say Mashrafee, Lakmal, Joshep & Anwar Ali level - it's not a big problem, though all 4 can reach average 130KM ....... In short - MoJo bowled at 155KM pace, Holding bowled at 135KM pace :( - it's easily explainable now.

Andy Roberts was 10 clicks faster than Joshep, he was at a different level, plus kind of passion and venom Andy had made him very dangerous bowler. Those spell lifts the team, they use to feed off of each other, means more trouble for batting lineup, sum was better than the parts and they have too many parts ;-)

Mojo Avg pace in those spells were 148/149 Clicks, but they felt like 160-165+ because of accuracy of bouncer and lift he got from those lengths, you cannot measure those details with speed gun...I have said it many times, speed gun does not measure nip and carry(speed out of hand is not indication of everything bowler has to offer in terms of aggression and skill)...Same is true for late swing, even at lesser pace its more deadly...That is again one of those things you will not get from spreadsheet, technology is not there to measure all those details yet...
 
The bowlers of the past were indeed faster than the current bowlers. Don't tell me the likes of Marshall, Lillee, Ambrose, Donald, etc. were not faster than the current bowlers.

These are not biased views. Bowlers were just better and faster then.
 
The feats of the old players are like religious miracles. With advancement in technology, religious miracles vanished. You won't see anyone turning his staff into a snake or splitting a river into two. These things only happened at a time and age where these miracles were not verifiable.

Similarly, bowlers were able to bowl at the speed of light and batsmen were able to perform superhuman feats at a time when technology was not advance enough to verify the hearsay.

In the age of advance technology, Internet and social media, the modern players do not have the luxury of living of myths that exaggerated the careers of the past greats. No one will be able to get away by claiming that Starc bowled at 170 kph and Kohli was able to hit 150m sixes, because these things can be very easily verified now.

However, the other end of the spectrum is extreme as well, i.e. those who claim that the past players will be useless in the modern era. A player of an era is simply a product of that era; very few players like Viv Richards etc., manage to transcend eras.

As a result, great players of every era are pretty much in the same class because they all had the ability to rise and shine above competition. To say that modern batsmen are rubbish compared to the old era batsmen is utter nonsense, and the reverse is true as well.

Nonetheless, to go back to the religion analogy, the sad devotion of some people to the greats of the past is very much like religious fanaticism, because both sets completely ignore any logic and rationale that exposes their blind beliefs.

Can't compare religious myths to Cricket. Nobody saw the sea splitting or staff turning into a snake. The evidence of the bowlers like Lillee, Holding, etc. were lightening fast, Viv smashing bowlers all over the park is well documented.
 
The bowlers of the past were indeed faster than the current bowlers. Don't tell me the likes of Marshall, Lillee, Ambrose, Donald, etc. were not faster than the current bowlers.

These are not biased views. Bowlers were just better and faster then.

One can have an argument about being better. But not necessarily faster. I saw a lot of Marshall, Ambrose and Donald (alas no Lillee, he never toured India -- the *****!).

Marshall was by far the best fast bowler I have seen in action across generations -- bar none. Followed closely by McGrath and Akram. He was quick and cunning. His spell of fast bowling in 1983 Kanpur Test was fearsome. I rate Ambrose very highly but McGrath bested him easily -- though both were similar type of bowlers, naggingly accurate, they never gave you in inch. I think Donald is not even the best RSA fast bowler -- I'd put Steyn ahead of him.
 
You're on shaky ground here.

Ten months ago, South Africa hosted New Zealand. As we discussed at the time, Cricinfo showed upwards of four Steyn balls per over in the 140s.

But the SuperSport TV coverage had its own speed gun, on which Steyn failed to bowl a single ball over 139K in the whole series.


You need to stop cherry picking your sources, and you need to stop rejecting all measurements for which you can't see twenty-first century camera work. Because your prerequisites give you an absolute bias towards contemporary events.

So ergo Steyn has *NEVER* clocked 145K+ ? Is this what you are arriving at based on the highlighted part ?
 
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he is Bitter, about how the Windies had fallen. Only the lack of out and out pace could be legit complain.

But the Truth is that Windies won by injuring the opposition, sending batsmen to hospital. They were feared because they could threaten your life with the ball. Bouncers did not kill as many as the fear of mortal injury caused the opposition to loose wickets. It was only a matter of time that rules were changed and protective gear came in.
 
The point is there actually exists footage of Steyn bowling at 145K. There is EXACTLY Zero footage of Roberts bowling at above 150K's. Empty claims don't count as evidence in real life. And before you get upset please realize that I have subjected Steyn or any modern bowler to the same yardstick -- footage or it did not happen.




I have told you why I don't take their words as Gospel ... they are just simply not reliable. Best examples are of Jack Hobbs and Barry Richards batting .... there is no shortage of effusive praise about these 2 players ... once you actually watch their batting with your own eyes you JUST know you have been had. There is no better way to explain this than to live it. Go try it with a clear open mind and see if you don't feel cheated.



You can believe in Santa Clauss ... don't let anyone stop you from doing so but don't go around trying to convince people that he is real !! This is how rigorous analysis works in real life professions and scenarios. Did you really expect other people to just take your words as fact ? Seriously ? What world do you live in.

And what agenda would that be when I put up Mikey and Roberts footage where they measured to be bowling well short of the claimed 150K's ? In my world it is called calling a spade as a spade !
What is this bakwas man? 'Video or it didn't happen' is pure bakwaas else we can say that there is no video of the Ancient Egyptions, therefore it didn't happen..we can say that the tudors didn't exist, that there Americans aren't European immigrants and so on. Now, this doesn't mean to blindly listen to the Chappels and other biased people, it's all about consistent views throughout combined with reading and whatever little footage is left. You are 'hey this dude is bowling 130kph, he's pure tripe and Virat Kohli is a faster bowler'...I showed you footage of a Holding spell, the same people who rate Holding rate Roberts. This is where the Waqar vs Marshall analogy comes into play.

I take myself for being a bit naive in realising this late that this whole way of reasoning of yours is the reason why people just give up arguing with you because you're too proud to accept someone elses opinion and are too fixated on 'video or didn't happen' bakwaas. I should have ended the argument ages ago, you're a brick wall son.
 
Can't compare religious myths to Cricket. Nobody saw the sea splitting or staff turning into a snake. The evidence of the bowlers like Lillee, Holding, etc. were lightening fast, Viv smashing bowlers all over the park is well documented.

Yes, but certain claims are not verifiable and are greatly exaggerated, i.e. the speeds of certain pacers of the past.
In an era of no Internet and documented history, with hearsay the only source of information - someone like Starc could easily become 10 clicks quicker.

There is a video of Larwood on YT where the commentator calls him the acknowledged speed king of all time who bowls at 70 mph.

If that video did not exist on the Internet, some folks would have insisted that Larwood used to bowl at 95 mph with one hand tied behind his back.

We live in modern times with improved science and technology. Athletes have access to better diets, better training methods, better exercises, better overall physical and mental conditioning. The idea that bowlers from 30-40 years back were capable of bowling faster than modern bowlers is absolute nonsense. Sure the likes of Thompson etc. were probably as quick as Akhtar, Lee etc., but the pacers of 70s and 80s were not bowling thunderbolts at 160 kph average as some folk would make you believe.

[utube]awz2KyMzELg[/utube]

Here is the Larwood video.
 
What is this bakwas man? 'Video or it didn't happen' is pure bakwaas else we can say that there is no video of the Ancient Egyptions, therefore it didn't happen..we can say that the tudors didn't exist, that there Americans aren't European immigrants and so on. Now, this doesn't mean to blindly listen to the Chappels and other biased people, it's all about consistent views throughout combined with reading and whatever little footage is left. You are 'hey this dude is bowling 130kph, he's pure tripe and Virat Kohli is a faster bowler'...I showed you footage of a Holding spell, the same people who rate Holding rate Roberts. This is where the Waqar vs Marshall analogy comes into play.

I take myself for being a bit naive in realising this late that this whole way of reasoning of yours is the reason why people just give up arguing with you because you're too proud to accept someone elses opinion and are too fixated on 'video or didn't happen' bakwaas. I should have ended the argument ages ago, you're a brick wall son.

Video evidence is important because it often puts these myths to bed. For example, take a look at that Larwood video I posted. He is considered as one of the fastest bowlers of all time, but in truth, he was bowling at 70 mph, which was obviously a big deal for the 1930s because the game was still quite primitive. Now that does not make Larwood a bad bowler or even an inferior bowler to a 90 mph pacer today, which again brings us back to the point that cross-era comparisons are indeed pointless.
 
Video evidence is important because it often puts these myths to bed. For example, take a look at that Larwood video I posted. He is considered as one of the fastest bowlers of all time, but in truth, he was bowling at 70 mph, which was obviously a big deal for the 1930s because the game was still quite primitive. Now that does not make Larwood a bad bowler or even an inferior bowler to a 90 mph pacer today, which again brings us back to the point that cross-era comparisons are indeed pointless.
I don't take cricket pre 70s too seriously so I more or less agree reg Larwood...I agree that cross era comparisons are indeed pointless however the discussion isn't about that with mr Tusker who claims that bowlers of 70s, 80s were nothing while suddenly bowlers from 90s became 150kph demons due to his more evidence and coverage... I'd rather not debate with someone who goes by the 'if i didn't see it, it didn't happen' bakwaas because it is clear they will not budge their view points.
 
He may have been a bit harsh but it is definitely a sissy era with sissy fans who advocate ATG status of mid-card talent like Root and Kohli who would not survive a week of international cricket in the 90's never mind the 70s/80s.
 
he is Bitter, about how the Windies had fallen. Only the lack of out and out pace could be legit complain.

But the Truth is that Windies won by injuring the opposition, sending batsmen to hospital. They were feared because they could threaten your life with the ball. Bouncers did not kill as many as the fear of mortal injury caused the opposition to loose wickets. It was only a matter of time that rules were changed and protective gear came in.

Pardon?

Only one team was cowardly enough to surrender to West Indian aggression - the 1975-76 Indians.

Every other team tried to play cricket, and was defeated by superior skills.

Except, of course, Pakistan, who drew 1-1 with the West Indies in 86-87, 87-88 and 90-91.
 
So ergo Steyn has *NEVER* clocked 145K+ ? Is this what you are arriving at based on the highlighted part ?

Focus on what he has said rather than where he's arriving, you're just making yourself look lie you don't have anything with proper backing to say.
 
What is this bakwas man? 'Video or it didn't happen' is pure bakwaas else we can say that there is no video of the Ancient Egyptions, therefore it didn't happen..we can say that the tudors didn't exist, that there Americans aren't European immigrants and so on.

Completely different and ludicrous comparison. For starters no one with a bit of brain is claiming that Egyptians and Tudors were better at anything that we do today.

Now, this doesn't mean to blindly listen to the Chappels and other biased people, it's all about consistent views throughout combined with reading and whatever little footage is left.

and what else are you doing other than blindly re-stating whatever the said experts are saying ? Did you even watch Hobbs and Barry Richards batting ... I have asked [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]s to comment on the batting techniques of these two batsman based on batting footage but they just keep avoiding answering the main point. Its very obvious why.

You are 'hey this dude is bowling 130kph, he's pure tripe and Virat Kohli is a faster bowler'...I showed you footage of a Holding spell, the same people who rate Holding rate Roberts. This is where the Waqar vs Marshall analogy comes into play.

Do you even realize that human beings are incapable of speed measurement without help from machines ?

I take myself for being a bit naive in realizing this late that this whole way of reasoning of yours is the reason why people just give up arguing with you because you're too proud to accept someone elses opinion and are too fixated on 'video or didn't happen' bakwaas. I should have ended the argument ages ago, you're a brick wall son.

too proud ? lol and what does that buy me on a free and anonymous forum ? BTW does it ever occur to you that using your own flawed logic I can claim that Ishant Sharma too is 150KPH bowler ? It cuts both ways.
 
Focus on what he has said rather than where he's arriving, you're just making yourself look lie you don't have anything with proper backing to say.

which I have already done in the past and [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] is perfectly aware of it ... he just NEVER gets to the crux of the matter.

And in case you are wondering what my response was .... I acknowledge that there are two readings for the same ball in *THAT* series last year. However this does not mean that previously Steyn hasn't been clocked and indeed at much higher speeds.

So now I hope you show up here and start asking pointed questions to [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and others when they start to beat around the bush.
 
There is a video of Larwood on YT where the commentator calls him the acknowledged speed king of all time who bowls at 70 mph.

What is the commentator basing that on, though?

Jesse Owens was 92% as quick as Usain Bolt, so it seems reasonable to assume that Larwood could get some deliveries up past 90 mph.
 
What is the commentator basing that on, though?

I find it quite hilarious that you even ask that question ... I mean when has scientific rigor ever been applied to anything about cricket from the past ? Almost every single cricketing know-how or "facts" that you subscribe to are based on such spurious comments by "Experts" . Thats how the world operated in those days and you , [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] expect people to the same in 2017... (except when it doesn't suit you -- naturally) :))
 
I don't take cricket pre 70s too seriously so I more or less agree reg Larwood...I agree that cross era comparisons are indeed pointless however the discussion isn't about that with mr Tusker who claims that bowlers of 70s, 80s were nothing while suddenly bowlers from 90s became 150kph demons due to his more evidence and coverage... I'd rather not debate with someone who goes by the 'if i didn't see it, it didn't happen' bakwaas because it is clear they will not budge their view points.

Don't put words in my mouth ... my position is that with the possible exception of Thommo it is highly unlikely that most fast bowlers from the 70s and 80s bowled at 150Ks.

Whereas [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] here strongly believes that the opposite is true. This is the context to most of my discussions with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

also it is NOT my problem if "suddenly" the 90s saw the emergence of truly fast bowlers. It is what it is and its very obvious why you are all upset because you don't have a leg to stand on in a fact based serious debate. You may find better success some place else with more naive people.
 
Pardon?

Only one team was cowardly enough to surrender to West Indian aggression - the 1975-76 Indians.

And we are back again to square one after I had thoroughly dismantled (more than once if I remember correctly) your ludicrous views about that match. Well done !
 
Completely different and ludicrous comparison. For starters no one with a bit of brain is claiming that Egyptians and Tudors were better at anything that we do today.



and what else are you doing other than blindly re-stating whatever the said experts are saying ? Did you even watch Hobbs and Barry Richards batting ... I have asked [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]s to comment on the batting techniques of these two batsman based on batting footage but they just keep avoiding answering the main point. Its very obvious why.



Do you even realize that human beings are incapable of speed measurement without help from machines ?



too proud ? lol and what does that buy me on a free and anonymous forum ? BTW does it ever occur to you that using your own flawed logic I can claim that Ishant Sharma too is 150KPH bowler ? It cuts both ways.
No, it isn't completely ludicrous as a comparison, you saying that doesn't make it so lol...haha you value your own opinion way too highly. When it comes to Egyptions all I will say is manual labourers were far superior then. It's a bit odd since civilisation should have evolved to be so much more efficient and productive :(. Before you go crybaby mode, no I am not talking about robots and other tech doing all the work, I'm talking about people then vs people now. Of course I can't claim this because it was thousands of years ago and modern day due to 'tech and knowledge' is heaps loads better!!!

What nonsense are you spewing now? I have stated again and again that this is 70s/80s ability comparison with now, not dinosaur era as cross era comparisons are meaningless. I don't even know where Hobbs even came into the question? Barry Richards as a batsman has very little international feats however he was another batsman like Viv with intent of modern day era batting...I've seen videos of his batting and the main thing I noticed was how ridiculously large the boundary lengths were. He has contemporary rates from the respective good bowlers of that era so that is quite a large weight in my opinion. Of course video or it didn't happen on your case so I won't start a futile argument there.

Why on Gods green earth have you been whinging for the last year or so on PP if you think speed measurement cannot be done by humans via videos? I hope you are trolling with that diabolically ******** statement lol.

Ishant Sharma when he burst onto the scene was a 150kph bowler, it does indeed cut both ways..that spell to Ponting was brilliant? I don't understand the crux of your argument here because it isn't your usual 'video or didn't happen' garbage...I didn't say it buys you anything but it's quite easy to notice what your character type is. A 'I'm always right because I use sound logic and reasoning and I don't believe things I don't see' type of individual...

Don't put words in my mouth ... my position is that with the possible exception of Thommo it is highly unlikely that most fast bowlers from the 70s and 80s bowled at 150Ks.

Whereas [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] here strongly believes that the opposite is true. This is the context to most of my discussions with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

also it is NOT my problem if "suddenly" the 90s saw the emergence of truly fast bowlers. It is what it is and its very obvious why you are all upset because you don't have a leg to stand on in a fact based serious debate. You may find better success some place else with more naive people.
hahaha don't put words in your own mouth. You've stated that Thommo was probably nothing more than a 140kph bowler :)) but now he's suddenly 150ks.

Junaids is an exaggerated oldie tbh, not going to say otherwise here because unlike you he's on the other end of the extreme and claims bowlers bowled 170kph. That's nigh impossible...I won't be surprised if the fastest ever delivery is Shoaib Akhtars. However, I still maintain that Holding was a 150kph bowler who regularly bowled 145 odd.

I have no reason to support the old generation...I am very likely to be younger than you. However I like pointing out bullsh1t arguments like yours which are usually arguments based on opinions in the form of 'sound logic, factual reasoning and video evidence' lmao.
 
No, it isn't completely ludicrous as a comparison, you saying that doesn't make it so lol...haha you value your own opinion way too highly. When it comes to Egyptions all I will say is manual labourers were far superior then. It's a bit odd since civilisation should have evolved to be so much more efficient and productive :(. Before you go crybaby mode, no I am not talking about robots and other tech doing all the work, I'm talking about people then vs people now. Of course I can't claim this because it was thousands of years ago and modern day due to 'tech and knowledge' is heaps loads better!!!

What nonsense are you spewing now? I have stated again and again that this is 70s/80s ability comparison with now, not dinosaur era as cross era comparisons are meaningless. I don't even know where Hobbs even came into the question? Barry Richards as a batsman has very little international feats however he was another batsman like Viv with intent of modern day era batting...I've seen videos of his batting and the main thing I noticed was how ridiculously large the boundary lengths were. He has contemporary rates from the respective good bowlers of that era so that is quite a large weight in my opinion. Of course video or it didn't happen on your case so I won't start a futile argument there.

Why on Gods green earth have you been whinging for the last year or so on PP if you think speed measurement cannot be done by humans via videos? I hope you are trolling with that diabolically ******** statement lol.

Ishant Sharma when he burst onto the scene was a 150kph bowler, it does indeed cut both ways..that spell to Ponting was brilliant? I don't understand the crux of your argument here because it isn't your usual 'video or didn't happen' garbage...I didn't say it buys you anything but it's quite easy to notice what your character type is. A 'I'm always right because I use sound logic and reasoning and I don't believe things I don't see' type of individual...


hahaha don't put words in your own mouth. You've stated that Thommo was probably nothing more than a 140kph bowler :)) but now he's suddenly 150ks.

Junaids is an exaggerated oldie tbh, not going to say otherwise here because unlike you he's on the other end of the extreme and claims bowlers bowled 170kph. That's nigh impossible...I won't be surprised if the fastest ever delivery is Shoaib Akhtars. However, I still maintain that Holding was a 150kph bowler who regularly bowled 145 odd.

I have no reason to support the old generation...I am very likely to be younger than you. However I like pointing out bullsh1t arguments like yours which are usually arguments based on opinions in the form of 'sound logic, factual reasoning and video evidence' lmao.

Egyptians: You can say anything you want ... won't make it a fact. If anyone wanted to make any serious claim on those lines they would have to submit their findings that would be peer reviewed by a Technical committee. This is how it works in the real world.

Speed Measurement: Genius ... I meant speed measurement using naked eyes (As opposed to using sped guns). I thought the context in which that comment was made ( Waqar ad Marshall comparison) would make it obvious but guess not. :facepalm:

Hobbs: I used him as an example of why one should NEVER trust opinions of past cricketers and experts (which is your prefered method of finding . He was chosen ahead of Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Lara as player of the Century ( 1900-2000).

Barry: Rated highly for great batting technique and batsmanship by many Including Ian Chappell who cannot stop sining praises of him. He uses a FirstClass match as an example. Barry made 300 in a day against Dennis Lillee and nothing in that video is soo extraordinary that it merits such high praise. Check it out on youtube.

Ishant: There is footage of him bowling 150Ks ... try convincing [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] or any of the usual old era fanatics that Ishant should similarly be considered a truly fast bowler using the exact same logic. lol

Thommo: Never said he didnt cross 140. That video I posted of speed measurement has him bowling well above 140Ks. I have seen him measured at 147Ks so I can accept that he might have crossed 150Ks though there is no footage.

Cant keep typing long replies so pick one topic that is of main interest to you from the above.
 
What is the commentator basing that on, though?

Jesse Owens was 92% as quick as Usain Bolt, so it seems reasonable to assume that Larwood could get some deliveries up past 90 mph.

Why would the commentator emphasize on "70 mph" while calling him a "speed king" if he was capable of bowling 90+?

Imagine a commentator saying that Mitchell Starc is the speed king of this era who bowls at 120 kph.
 
Yes, but certain claims are not verifiable and are greatly exaggerated, i.e. the speeds of certain pacers of the past.
In an era of no Internet and documented history, with hearsay the only source of information - someone like Starc could easily become 10 clicks quicker.

There is a video of Larwood on YT where the commentator calls him the acknowledged speed king of all time who bowls at 70 mph.

If that video did not exist on the Internet, some folks would have insisted that Larwood used to bowl at 95 mph with one hand tied behind his back.

We live in modern times with improved science and technology. Athletes have access to better diets, better training methods, better exercises, better overall physical and mental conditioning. The idea that bowlers from 30-40 years back were capable of bowling faster than modern bowlers is absolute nonsense. Sure the likes of Thompson etc. were probably as quick as Akhtar, Lee etc., but the pacers of 70s and 80s were not bowling thunderbolts at 160 kph average as some folk would make you believe.

[utube]awz2KyMzELg[/utube]

Here is the Larwood video.

The bowlers I mentioned did not play Cricket in the 50s. You don't need all the latest technology to tell that the Holding was very fast.
 
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