Cricket Scotland to lose out on reported £700,000 bonus in funding after WC19 qualification failure

[Big Mac]

It's almost like the full member nations don't have the best interests of the sport at heart

 

[CanadianG00se]

BCCI doesn’t leave the ICC because the BCCI cannot survive without the ICC - not because of the COA.

BCCI needs events such as World Cup and other international teams to make their money. Don’t for a single second be naive enough to think that if the BCCI didn’t have to be part of the ICC, they still would. IPL is only successful due to the involvement of international players & that money making machine would not exist if international players and the ICC didn’t actively participate in it. How much money to other domestic Indian competitions make?

The ICC makes their money from India, Australia, England and all of the Top 10 countries. It is then the ICCs job to grow the sport around the world, so part of the money the big teams generate should be used around the world for the sport to grow. The fact that some boards and fans are so short sighted that they cannot see the benefit of helping the sport grow is depressing.

Even when ICC cut BCCIs profit, the BCCI still didn’t cut ties with the ICC because the BCCI need the ICC just as much as the ICC needs the BCCI.

The ICCs job isn’t to just help the sport grow in countries where there is already an interest - the ICCs job is to take the sport to countries where there is no interest and generate that interest.

The summary of it all is very simple:

> The ICC gets money from BCCI, CA, ECB and all the big boards. Yes the majority of the money is from the BCCI, but f the BCCI have a problem with that - no one is forcing them to stay.

> The ICC should then invest a portion of that money around the globe to generate an interest in Cricket on an international level in as many countries as possible.

The ICC shouldn’t be content with a dozen Cricket playing countries as you seem to be.

Apart from Nepal and now Afg there is no associate nation where there is an interest in Cricket - but that doesn’t mean after Afg and Nepal get to a Test playing status the ICC just sits on their backsides.

I agree where you coming from but my main objection is whenever there is talk of funds, people will directly look at BCCI’s pocket as if they are responsible for growing cricket elsewhere. BCCI job is limted to India only and like any other country, they will always have selfish nature towards their own country. Now, you said if BCCI isn’t happy they could leave, but as I said they agreed middle ground and BCCI is happily getting what they deemed acceptable. Now if ICC thinks BCCI is getting more than what BCCI deserve then they can kick BCCI out, no?

As far growing game globally, well its challenging task as apart from Indian subcontinet, cricket is not main sport in any of the test playing countries. Even in England, soccer is dominant sport, im guessing same is the case with Scotland. Similarly, in Canada, Ice Hockey is predominant game and I see no future for cricket here. ICC have been spending money in wrong markets where cricket can never grow. ICC should invest in markets where there is potential. Lastly, ICC should also audit associate nations and set them timeline, for instance give them certain years to develop domestic cricket and infrastructure. In order for cricket to step foot in any new country, it must start from school level where kids pick up sport. Im not sure if kids in Scotland plays cricket but here 90% of kids dont even know there is a game called cricket.

Spending money like water wont help grow game, it needs systematic investment. Now 10 teams WC sure wasn’t BCCI’s decision, but greedy ICC who wants to maximise cash. Even recently they wanted to hold 2018WC T20 but BCCI rejected, and it was scrapped. If ICC were serious about funds for associate they could’ve hosted WT20 with or without India. I mean how hard is it?

Majority of blame lies with ICC for the mess they are in right now. There economic decision is India centric which is giving BCCI lot of bargaining power.

 

[Sin Nombre]

T20WC used to be 12 teams, it was cut to 10 teams in 2014 and after 2016, they made it once in 4 years from once in 2

Except that ICC cleverly disguised the 10 team T20 WC as 16 teams

Seedings are used in most major sports, it is not called a disguise.

Can you answer the questions though?

 

[Sin Nombre]

Any Scottish players good enough would already be involved in English county cricket. Given an additional Scotland team would be a walk over you'd struggle to get the ECB to agree.

Why would a young kid want to play cricket unless there is a local team to follow?

It is in the best interest of British and Scottish cricket.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Lots of people trying to blame BCCI as always on here but still no answers to

- has participation levels in Scotland gone up since 99? How many years will it take to see locals wanting to play?

- have they increased their talent pool or is it just players like South African Mommsen getting a free WC ride in Scottish colours? (just checked and half their team was born either in SA or Eng)

- why has the Scottish board not gone all in to try and get a spot in the English T20 tournament(s)?

 

[HitWicket]

Lots of people trying to blame BCCI as always on here but still no answers to

- has participation levels in Scotland gone up since 99? How many years will it take to see locals wanting to play?

Can't really answer this one personally although I would assume so.

- have they increased their talent pool or is it just players like South African Mommsen getting a free WC ride in Scottish colours? (just checked and half their team was born either in SA or Eng)

They still have people with relatives coming and playing though but there's also the locally born and developed talent like Kyle Coetzer, Josh Davey, Calum Macleod, Michael Leask, Chris and Tom Sole etc, that are an improvement on what they had 20 years back.

- why has the Scottish board not gone all in to try and get a spot in the English T20 tournament(s)?

Like I've said above, anyone good enough will already be involved and there's no realistic way the ECB could be persuaded to have a team that would be so regularly beaten taking part in the tournament. Hopefully they'll do what Ireland did and soon have their own domestic tournament featuring a few teams.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Scotland revealed lately they have actually tried to reenter county cricket, ECB werent supportive

 

[Shaka81]

I agree where you coming from but my main objection is whenever there is talk of funds, people will directly look at BCCI’s pocket as if they are responsible for growing cricket elsewhere. BCCI job is limted to India only and like any other country, they will always have selfish nature towards their own country. Now, you said if BCCI isn’t happy they could leave, but as I said they agreed middle ground and BCCI is happily getting what they deemed acceptable. Now if ICC thinks BCCI is getting more than what BCCI deserve then they can kick BCCI out, no?

As far growing game globally, well its challenging task as apart from Indian subcontinet, cricket is not main sport in any of the test playing countries. Even in England, soccer is dominant sport, im guessing same is the case with Scotland. Similarly, in Canada, Ice Hockey is predominant game and I see no future for cricket here. ICC have been spending money in wrong markets where cricket can never grow. ICC should invest in markets where there is potential. Lastly, ICC should also audit associate nations and set them timeline, for instance give them certain years to develop domestic cricket and infrastructure. In order for cricket to step foot in any new country, it must start from school level where kids pick up sport. Im not sure if kids in Scotland plays cricket but here 90% of kids dont even know there is a game called cricket.

Spending money like water wont help grow game, it needs systematic investment. Now 10 teams WC sure wasn’t BCCI’s decision, but greedy ICC who wants to maximise cash. Even recently they wanted to hold 2018WC T20 but BCCI rejected, and it was scrapped. If ICC were serious about funds for associate they could’ve hosted WT20 with or without India. I mean how hard is it?

Majority of blame lies with ICC for the mess they are in right now. There economic decision is India centric which is giving BCCI lot of bargaining power.

The same could've been said about rugby union but the IRB recognized the need to grow the game and it's now got a foothold in Argentina and Japan which weren't traditional rugby countries. The next world cup is even in Japan and will have 20 teams, many smaller nations but important to spread the game. FIFA for all their negatives have continued to spend and invest to grow their sport, even making it popular in the US which many commentators had said would never happen.
Then look at the approach ICC have taken, cricket is shrinking with even countries like the Caribbean countries losing interest and moving on to other sports. Soon only the big 3 countries and maybe some of the Asian countries will remain playing at the highest level. ICC should be promoting cricket everywhere. It might not be the most popular sport in Scotland but you'll be surprised at the number of people who do play it here and not just South Africans or English or Asians. The club I played for had a lot of Scottish born players like me but the majority gave it up after playing as a youth, usually for education reasons but we also lost a lot of the better athletes to rugby and football, which gave them a chance to actually play at a higher level and make some money.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Scotland revealed lately they have actually tried to reenter county cricket, ECB werent supportive

Link?

Also why not try to get a team in the new T20 championship / 50 over tournament.


Donal, do you have numbers on Irish participation levels over the years? It definitely feels like for Irish cricket, those numbers have gone up.

 

[HitWicket]

Link?

Also why not try to get a team in the new T20 championship / 50 over tournament.


Donal, do you have numbers on Irish participation levels over the years? It definitely feels like for Irish cricket, those numbers have gone up.

The ECB have had to cut off an international ground in Durham for the T20 tournament already to keep the team numbers down, they're not going to pass it over for a Scottish team realistically.

European (Scotland/Ireland/Netherlands) teams have had 164 games in English one day cricket since 2006. They've only won 27 of them with the Netherlands accounting for 13 of them despite only playing 48 games. Ireland won 3 of their 34 and Scotland won 11 of their 82. In hindsight I haven't accounted for no-results so these numbers are slightly harsher than reality but it's still showing of how with any notable players already being with a county the sides aren't really competitive enough to be worthwhile for the ECB.

 

[Sin Nombre]

The ECB have had to cut off an international ground in Durham for the T20 tournament already to keep the team numbers down, they're not going to pass it over for a Scottish team realistically.

European (Scotland/Ireland/Netherlands) teams have had 164 games in English one day cricket since 2006. They've only won 27 of them with the Netherlands accounting for 13 of them despite only playing 48 games. Ireland won 3 of their 34 and Scotland won 11 of their 82. In hindsight I haven't accounted for no-results so these numbers are slightly harsher than reality but it's still showing of how with any notable players already being with a county the sides aren't really competitive enough to be worthwhile for the ECB.

What years did these teams play in?

How many Scottish players are currently employed by a county team? 8 including the imports as per wiki.

If we go by what you are saying, if the Scottish national team minus 8 or so players can't even compete in a 16-24 team English domestic competition, how is playing a few matches in a WC every 4 years against significantly stronger opposition going to help them?

I am all for ICC helping finance a Scottish, Irish and Dutch team in the ECB 20/50 competitions for the first few years to help grow the game. That has a better chance of success than giving them a slot at the 50 over WC.

 

[HitWicket]

What years did these teams play in?

How many Scottish players are currently employed by a county team? 8 including the imports as per wiki.

If we go by what you are saying, if the Scottish national team minus 8 or so players can't even compete in a 16-24 team English domestic competition, how is playing a few matches in a WC every 4 years against significantly stronger opposition going to help them?

I am all for ICC helping finance a Scottish, Irish and Dutch team in the ECB 20/50 competitions for the first few years to help grow the game. That has a better chance of success than giving them a slot at the 50 over WC.

Was a decent while back now.

Scotland 2006-2013
Ireland 2006-2009
Netherlands 2009-2013

 

[CanadianG00se]

The same could've been said about rugby union but the IRB recognized the need to grow the game and it's now got a foothold in Argentina and Japan which weren't traditional rugby countries. The next world cup is even in Japan and will have 20 teams, many smaller nations but important to spread the game. FIFA for all their negatives have continued to spend and invest to grow their sport, even making it popular in the US which many commentators had said would never happen.
Then look at the approach ICC have taken, cricket is shrinking with even countries like the Caribbean countries losing interest and moving on to other sports. Soon only the big 3 countries and maybe some of the Asian countries will remain playing at the highest level. ICC should be promoting cricket everywhere. It might not be the most popular sport in Scotland but you'll be surprised at the number of people who do play it here and not just South Africans or English or Asians. The club I played for had a lot of Scottish born players like me but the majority gave it up after playing as a youth, usually for education reasons but we also lost a lot of the better athletes to rugby and football, which gave them a chance to actually play at a higher level and make some money.

Rugby Union or Fifa do not heavily rely on one nation for their source of Income. Im not against ICC expanding but as of now their major chunk of income comes from one market. Take that out and there isnt much difference between Badminton and Cricket.

There is only so much can one market do. If ICC wants to expand like Rugby or Fifa, then they shall first explore the possibility of more markets where they could earn. Without revenue ICC wont really able to do much.

Rugby despite having more nations in World cup still doesn't have as many viewers as ICC World cup does.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Was a decent while back now.

Scotland 2006-2013
Ireland 2006-2009
Netherlands 2009-2013

tbf the Irish sides fielded back then were generally like Ireland A as opposed to the senior team.

 

[aloo paratha]

BCCI putting up with ICC is for obvious reason, they do not have full power at office thanks to COA. This is one time i really wish we still had Srini Mama.
1) ICC is responsible for growing cricket but that doesn’t mean take away the funds from BCCI and give it others. Whatever funds they get from hosting associates should be distributed among them.

2) All i can say is ICC makes most of their money from Indian market, the market which was developed by BCCI. The market which BCCI worked hard to make it attractive. ICC is just milking it.

3) As I said, in the end both parties reached an agreement. ICC originally were offering 250-260M but ended up agreeing to 405M which is still less than original Big3. But the lost revenue was recovered with new IPL deal.

4) Sport can only grow if there is demand for it. Now, if Scotland had huge fan following and demand for cricket then why do they still at Associate level? In Canada, cricket will never be mainstream sport, which is why you wont see Canadian taking up cricket as career. Majority of Canadian team is filled with expats who also have day time job and play cricket mostly on weekend. Now, if you were ICC head and wanted to select one nation to be next Afghanistan, who would you chose, Scotland, Nepal or Canada?

As an investor, you invest where you see a return on it.

In response to:

1) The funds BCCI receives from the ICC are not their right, it's ICC who decides to distribute it.

2) Had ICC not kept their faith in BCCI all those years ago and allowed them to play and funded them, there would be no Indian market, or a much weaker one. Fact is, countries need support from the ICC, which the ICC is not providing good enough of these days.

3) Fair enough.

4) Canada and Scotland are not comparable. Most of Scotland's team is actually filled with Scottish players. In the Canadian team I doubt you could find a player who's parent was born in Canada.

 

[aloo paratha]

They are themselves to be blamed for. Big nations will play smaller ones if they are showing signs of improvement, with Scotland thats not the case.

How is there no improvement? Go look at Scotland from the 1999 World Cup and look at them now.

 

[TalhaSyed]

I agree where you coming from but my main objection is whenever there is talk of funds, people will directly look at BCCI’s pocket as if they are responsible for growing cricket elsewhere. BCCI job is limted to India only and like any other country, they will always have selfish nature towards their own country. Now, you said if BCCI isn’t happy they could leave, but as I said they agreed middle ground and BCCI is happily getting what they deemed acceptable. Now if ICC thinks BCCI is getting more than what BCCI deserve then they can kick BCCI out, no?

As far growing game globally, well its challenging task as apart from Indian subcontinet, cricket is not main sport in any of the test playing countries. Even in England, soccer is dominant sport, im guessing same is the case with Scotland. Similarly, in Canada, Ice Hockey is predominant game and I see no future for cricket here. ICC have been spending money in wrong markets where cricket can never grow. ICC should invest in markets where there is potential. Lastly, ICC should also audit associate nations and set them timeline, for instance give them certain years to develop domestic cricket and infrastructure. In order for cricket to step foot in any new country, it must start from school level where kids pick up sport. Im not sure if kids in Scotland plays cricket but here 90% of kids dont even know there is a game called cricket.

Spending money like water wont help grow game, it needs systematic investment. Now 10 teams WC sure wasn’t BCCI’s decision, but greedy ICC who wants to maximise cash. Even recently they wanted to hold 2018WC T20 but BCCI rejected, and it was scrapped. If ICC were serious about funds for associate they could’ve hosted WT20 with or without India. I mean how hard is it?

Majority of blame lies with ICC for the mess they are in right now. There economic decision is India centric which is giving BCCI lot of bargaining power.

The reason people go after BCCI is because of the demands they make. Below is a graph of what BCCI were asking for last year when the ICC's financial model was being agreed. Study the both graphs and it's absolutely clear that all BCCI wanted was to take the 10% share which was being set aside for the associates:

Eventually that didn't happen, and the BCCI didnt quite get what they want - however, after tons of trash talk and threats, the BCCI just shut up and got on with business after agreeing a 'middle ground' solution.

I've already accepted that the ICC needs the BCCI to maintain the existing financial model - that was never even the debate & you can see that in our first post on this thread - however, what a lot of the BCCI fans fail to recognise is that the BCCI are equally reliant on the ICC and other international boards to make all that money they are so proud of.

See - that's where our fundamental thinking defers. You say the ICC should only invest money where they already see potential for growth (e.g. Afg and Nepal). I say, if the ICC do that we will never have more than 12 cricket teams - at the very most - and that is rubbish. Therefore the ICC should invest more in growing the game in countries where there is little interest to help generate that interest.

You're right - football, golf and rugby are all way more popular in countries like Scotland then cricket can ever imagine being - however, if the ICC gives up on these countries, we will forever see only 8 competitive cricket teams.

It's not about spending money like water - its about at least providing countries like Canada and Scotland with the initial funds required to build the required infrastructure, hire the required personnel, promote/advertise the game in their regions, take the games to schools and the grass roots etc. etc.

I agree - ICC are to blame for this mess. However, BCCI aren't completely innocent either. ICC are insanely greedy and if they were committed to helping the game grow rather than filling their bank accounts, they would tell the BCCI where to go - however, unfortunately that isn't the case.

At the end of the day - in business terms - the ICC are a company and the BCCI are their biggest funders. Now if the largest funders of a company tell the company not to do something - such as give 10% of their profit to associate nations - the company has 2 choices:

1) Tell the funder to get lost, do what they think is right and face the consequences

2) Give in to the demand of the funders

Unfortunately the ICC are doing the latter. Due to the ICC's greed and BCCI's short-sighted selfishness, global cricket continues to suffer.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Scotland's cricketers on brink of 'greatest achievement'​

Former Scotland cricket captain Kyle Coetzer says it would be the national side’s greatest achievement if they can reach the Super 8s at the Men’s T20 World Cup.

Doug Watson’s side have beaten Namibia and Oman and shared the spoils with England in a game washed out by the weather in Barbados.

The Scots are second in Group B going into their final fixture against Australia – who have already qualified - in St Lucia on Sunday.

The top two teams in each group will progress to the Super 8s phase.

If they can get through, Coetzer – who led Scotland 110 times across all formats – believes it would be a seismic moment for the sport in this country.

“There is no reason to say this wouldn’t be Scotland’s greatest ever achievement," he said.

"But there is still plenty to happen so they have got to keep their head down, enjoy the experience, and try and take it on wholeheartedly.’

"They have got the opportunity to go out against Australia and put out a fighting performance and you just never know in T20 what you can achieve.”

A victory on Sunday would eliminate defending champions England, who need heavy wins over Oman and Namibia to have any chance of going through.

Coetzer believes a combination of peaking at the right time, and having a balanced squad are among the key ingredients that have produced a recipe for success.

"There is a really good mix of players and I think timing of form is really important and they are in a really good patch at the moment," he said.

"I think some of the pitches have probably brought the teams closer together and that has created a belief among the lower-ranked sides that you can really cause some damage to some of the bigger teams.

"And there is absolutely no reason why Scotland couldn’t cause a bit of damage further in this tournament.”

T20 Cricket World Cup: Scotland face Australia with best achievement in site - Coezter

Former Scotland cricket captain Kyle Coetzer says it would be the country's greatest achievement if they can reach the Super 8s at the Men’s T20 World Cup.

www.bbc.com

 

[Champ_Pal]

Scotts are better than Irish.

Ireland has not improved in the past few years. They are not able to produce any good bowlers or batsmen. Its the same names we have been hearing over many years who are mediocre. At least Scotts seem to play fearless cricket with nothing to lose. Irish always seem to be stuck in a shell.

 

[Bhaijaan]

They’re in India, brother. Wishing them the best.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2017617177416028236

Still can’t believe they took your place dear, but only in the World Cup, otherwise they can never take your place. @sweep_shot

 

[charlie007]

They’re in India, brother. Wishing them the best.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2017617177416028236

Still can’t believe they took your place dear, but only in the World Cup, otherwise they can never take your place. @sweep_shot

Man! Your trolling is hilarious - the smoothest I have witnessed on this forum over the years, bar none

 

[sweep_shot]

All the best to Scotland.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Scotts are better than Irish.

Ireland has not improved in the past few years. They are not able to produce any good bowlers or batsmen. Its the same names we have been hearing over many years who are mediocre. At least Scotts seem to play fearless cricket with nothing to lose. Irish always seem to be stuck in a shell.

I think the main difference is Scotland plays a lot of players from other countries especially England whereas Ireland has brought through it's own players.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think the main difference is Scotland plays a lot of players from other countries especially England whereas Ireland has brought through it's own players.

Ireland is still better than Scotland.

Ireland is a Test nation. Scotland couldn't even qualify for World T20 ahead of Italy. They qualified because BD withdrew.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Ireland is still better than Scotland.

Ireland is a Test nation. Scotland couldn't even qualify for World T20 ahead of Italy. They qualified because BD withdrew.

They’re not better than Bangladesh. Never were and never will be. But they’re going to be one of the 20 teams to play in the greatest tournament in cricket but you wouldn’t be. We will miss you. It’s tragic.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Ireland is still better than Scotland.

Ireland is a Test nation. Scotland couldn't even qualify for World T20 ahead of Italy. They qualified because BD withdrew.

They have been unlucky and just pipped to the post at the end.

But yeah agreed. Ireland at least have mainly home grown players. Scotland has lots of players from England, South Africa and even NZ.

 

[sweep_shot]

They have been unlucky and just pipped to the post at the end.

But yeah agreed. Ireland at least have mainly home grown players. Scotland has lots of players from England, South Africa and even NZ.

Italy beat them I believe. Italy qualified ahead of Scotland.

Scotland was good 2-3 years ago. They declined in recent times.

 

[jnaveen1980]

All said and done they go home wiht a million dollar in earnings through various means. good for them.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Jersey deserve to be there more than Scotland.

ICC is the most incompetent organization in the world.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Perhaps if Pakistan withdraws, ICC can accommodate the Irish

 

[sweep_shot]

Jersey deserve to be there more than Scotland.

ICC is the most incompetent organization in the world.

If I remember correctly, Jersey finished ahead of Scotland in the qualifiers.

So, Jersey should've replaced Bangladesh instead of Scotland.

Another blunder from BCCICC.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Perhaps if Pakistan withdraws, ICC can accommodate the Irish

In that case, Uganda will enter the World Cup.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Perhaps if Pakistan withdraws, ICC can accommodate the Irish

Accommodate from what brother they are already in the world cup.

 

[Shaka81]

I think the main difference is Scotland plays a lot of players from other countries especially England whereas Ireland has brought through it's own players.

It's not surprising when you consider how little cricketing culture there is in Scotland. Cricket is very unlikely to even be in the top 10 sports in Scotland. Football dominates everything, especially the Old Firm who are huge. I think it's quite impressive that we even manage to find 11 decent players to represent us when the participation levels are so low and from past experience most of the short cricket season is impacted badly by the weather.

Ireland has had more of a cricketing culture over the years and have been able to expand participation recently without any negative connections to England or English culture unlike Scotland.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It's not surprising when you consider how little cricketing culture there is in Scotland. Cricket is very unlikely to even be in the top 10 sports in Scotland. Football dominates everything, especially the Old Firm who are huge. I think it's quite impressive that we even manage to find 11 decent players to represent us when the participation levels are so low and from past experience most of the short cricket season is impacted badly by the weather.

Ireland has had more of a cricketing culture over the years and have been able to expand participation recently without any negative connections to England or English culture unlike Scotland.

You are quite right. We do have a decent club structure and back in the day used to have some decent overseas pros playing too but compared to Ireland participation is low and the game hasn't really taken off here. There is a lot of talent in Asian community but that doesn't translate to club level or the pathways into the national team. Some parks are full of tape ball games.

Qualifying for the world cup is a big achievement even if it's through a loophole but there wasn't much of media coverage, it was celebrated more in India than here.

 

[Malahide man]

Scotland playing Afghanistan in warm up match today.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

If I remember correctly, Jersey finished ahead of Scotland in the qualifiers.

So, Jersey should've replaced Bangladesh instead of Scotland.

Another blunder from BCCICC.

View attachment 161207

They have qualified based on rankings rather than the qualifying path.

Which also doesn't make sense, given Bangladesh didn't qualify from the ranking they qualified based on their position in the last WC.

It was a difficult decision for the ICC. Can't blame them too much, its unprecedented.

 

[sweep_shot]

They have qualified based on rankings rather than the qualifying path.

Which also doesn't make sense, given Bangladesh didn't qualify from the ranking they qualified based on their position in the last WC.

It was a difficult decision for the ICC. Can't blame them too much, its unprecedented.

I blame BCCICC 100%.

It is a disgrace how they are running cricket currently. Can't even get qualification system right.