Dawn's columnist Cyril Almeida put on Exit Control List for 'misleading' story on national security

[WebGuru]

ISLAMABAD – Senior columnist of Dawn Cyril Almeida has been put on Exit Control List after his ‘misleading’ story regarding purported deliberations in a meeting on the security issues stirred controversy.

The writer announced Government’s latest move against the controversial story on Twitter.

"I am told and have been informed and have been shown evidence that I am on the Exit Control List."

Dawn’s editor Zaffar Abbas defiantly replied after the Government placed its staffer Cyril Almeida on the Exit Control List:

The writer created a buzz in Pakistan and India by reporting on October 6 that the government of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had delivered a “blunt” warning to the powerful military that the country facing growing international isolation if it failed to tackle terror.

The ECL is a system of border control maintained by the Government of Pakistan under the Exit from Pakistan (Control) Ordinance. Persons on the list are prohibited from leaving Pakistan.

The PM Office had strongly rejected the story, terming it not only speculative but misleading and factually incorrect.

“The fact that the report itself states that none of the attributed statements were confirmed by the individuals mentioned in the story clearly makes it an example of irresponsible reporting”, he said in a statement issued on Thursday.

Earlier today, the civil-military leadership expressed concern over the publication of a fabricated news story in Daily Dawn pertaining to security issues purportedly discussed in a meeting of National Security Committee in the last week.

Also, the participants of meeting were unanimous that the published story was clearly violative of universally acknowledged principles of reporting on national security issues and has risked the vital state interests through inclusion of inaccurate and misleading contents which had no relevance to actual discussion and facts.

The participants felt that it was imperative that the print and electronic media refrained itself from speculative reporting and issues of national security and interests of the state.

PM Nawaz took serious notice of the violation and directed that those responsible should be identified for stern action.

Source: https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...st-for-misleading-story-on-national-security/

 

[WebGuru]

Before we jump on milt est bashing bandwagon we should also realize the ECL action is taken by a democratic goverment even if the pressure was from 'them' so PMLN fed govt is also responsible here and deserve all the criticism coming their way even from their own supporters on social media right now.

 

[waqar goraya]

http://www.dawn.com/news/1289344/pm-office-rejects-dawn-story-again

Dawn's own link

 

[Bewal Express]

Whose lying?

 

[WebGuru]

http://www.dawn.com/news/1289344/pm-office-rejects-dawn-story-again

Dawn's own link

Interesting to see Dawn closed comments section on that page. Playing carefully i guess?

COMMENTS (0) CLOSED

 

[Waseem]

Cyril just reported what he receieved, fact that PMLN leaders discussed this in parliament also confirms Cyril is not at fault here so why would they put him on ECL?

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

They will scapegoat Cyril here - This is what I fear the most. Dawn is too prestigious and powerful to get the full blunt of this while PMN-L is the ruling party.

Poor fellow about to be shown the door I guess

 

[Tired]

They will scapegoat Cyril here - This is what I fear the most. Dawn is too prestigious and powerful to get the full blunt of this while PMN-L is the ruling party.

Poor fellow about to be shown the door I guess

Dont worry about Cyril. he is from an elite class (Cowasjee Nephew), he would be fine.

 

[Nostalgic]

As expected, ZHK discusses the affair in depth.

 

[HussainRx8]

I wish Cyril would reveal his sources and let them have it.

 

[JaDed]

I wish Cyril would reveal his sources and let them have it.

And never be a reporter again? There are only a hand few of reporters in the world remaining whose "sources" are usually genuine ones.

 

[DrSchultz]

Cyril is a great columnist. Reading his column on Sunday mornings, is the highlight of my week.

 

[DW44]

One of the finest journalists in the country and probably the only one who doesn't hold back from taking the boys to task over their misdeeds. It was inevitable that he'd land in hot water with them at some point. You just don't expose the boys in Pakistan and live free for too long.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Cyril Almeida? Sounds like a Goan catholic name.

 

[Zahid87]

Cyril Almeida? Sounds like a Goan catholic name.

He is Parsi from what I understand.

Much like Bombay, but to a lesser extent, Karachi had a history of having a Parsi/Gujarati business class. Much of the Hindu Guajartis left after 1947, but the Muslim and Parsi (for the most part) ones remained.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

He is Parsi from what I understand.

Much like Bombay, but to a lesser extent, Karachi had a history of having a Parsi/Gujarati business class. Much of the Hindu Guajartis left after 1947, but the Muslim and Parsi (for the most part) ones remained.

Parsi with a surname of Almeida? That's something i have never heard of. Atleast in India, that surname is a Catholic surname and even then only among those of Portuguese descent i think.

 

[dhump]

Marshal law is forced in Pakistan without world even knowing it.

If anyone thinks that PMLN or Nawaz Sharif got any power he/she must be kidding, they are just allowed to loot the country as much as they like while military and establishment can take their part.

It is really funny to see that military can pressurize the government to take such actions, but not powerful enough to pressurize them in answering more important issues like corruption, rule of law etc.

Clearly Pakistan is in hand of thieves with or without uniform.

 

[Markhor]

Sad news, Cyril Almeida is a fine journalist.

 

[street cricketer]

A bit random, but Dawn I think is the best newspaper in south asia. Definitely not saying this because of this incident, I have been long believing it ever since I stumbled upon it one or two years ago. Was very refreshing to read its unbiased reporting and its interesting editorials on the culture of Pakistan and was a sea of change from the sensationalism driven tabloids you find in India like the times of India, etc. Think the hindu is probably the best in India on that regard, ndtv is decent as well but sometimes pushes its agenda. I'm not sure if the Dawn is the best in Pakistan but it's very good.

 

[JaDed]

A bit random, but Dawn I think is the best newspaper in south asia. Definitely not saying this because of this incident, I have been long believing it ever since I stumbled upon it one or two years ago. Was very refreshing to read its unbiased reporting and its interesting editorials on the culture of Pakistan and was a sea of change from the sensationalism driven tabloids you find in India like the times of India, etc. Think the hindu is probably the best in India on that regard, ndtv is decent as well but sometimes pushes its agenda. I'm not sure if the Dawn is the best in Pakistan but it's very good.

It defn is the best,been reading since college days but tbf Indian-express is better than The Hindu,NDTV both of which push their agenda.(The Hindu-Pro Leftist agenda,NDTV-Anti-Right wing)

 

[WebGuru]

A bit random, but Dawn I think is the best newspaper in south asia. Definitely not saying this because of this incident, I have been long believing it ever since I stumbled upon it one or two years ago. Was very refreshing to read its unbiased reporting and its interesting editorials on the culture of Pakistan and was a sea of change from the sensationalism driven tabloids you find in India like the times of India, etc. Think the hindu is probably the best in India on that regard, ndtv is decent as well but sometimes pushes its agenda. I'm not sure if the Dawn is the best in Pakistan but it's very good.

Jinnah was the founder of Dawn Newspaper back in early 1940s (started in New Delhi) and interestingly Dawn survived all these decades after facing lot of issues specially from a big competitor like Jang/Geo group.

 

[DW44]

A bit random, but Dawn I think is the best newspaper in south asia. Definitely not saying this because of this incident, I have been long believing it ever since I stumbled upon it one or two years ago. Was very refreshing to read its unbiased reporting and its interesting editorials on the culture of Pakistan and was a sea of change from the sensationalism driven tabloids you find in India like the times of India, etc. Think the hindu is probably the best in India on that regard, ndtv is decent as well but sometimes pushes its agenda. I'm not sure if the Dawn is the best in Pakistan but it's very good.

It's easily the best news outlet in Pakistan and light years ahead of anything else in the country or even the region. Until about 2013, Express Tribune was up there but since then, it has fallen from grace spectacularly and is now more of a click bait tabloid with occasional bursts of quality every now and then. You rightly point out that The Hindu is of somewhat compareable quality though I must add that NDTV absolutely isn't even in the same ballpark. It's insulting to even name NDTV in the same breath as today's Express Tribune, much less the likes of Dawn or Hindu.

 

[WebGuru]

Cyril Almeida? Sounds like a Goan catholic name.

They are actually Goans and his other brother Norbert Almeida also is a columnist of Dawn.

 

[street cricketer]

It defn is the best,been reading since college days but tbf Indian-express is better than The Hindu,NDTV both of which push their agenda.(The Hindu-Pro Leftist agenda,NDTV-Anti-Right wing)

It's easily the best news outlet in Pakistan and light years ahead of anything else in the country or even the region. Until about 2013, Express Tribune was up there but since then, it has fallen from grace spectacularly and is now more of a click bait tabloid with occasional bursts of quality every now and then. You rightly point out that The Hindu is of somewhat compareable quality though I must add that NDTV absolutely isn't even in the same ballpark. It's insulting to even name NDTV in the same breath as today's Express Tribune, much less the likes of Dawn or Hindu.

Lol I get TOI at my home daily, anything looks better for me.

 

[JaDed]

Lol I get TOI at my home daily, anything looks better for me.

Lol so true that is so bad made my parents discontinue the newspaper and buy the Hindu ,the way they misprint news is cringe worthy,if you are into serious news ,,magazines like Foundation ink and Frontline(massive leftist agenda) are very good.

 

[90MPH]

This is not on, just because he said something that the military or the establishment didn't like doesn't mean he should face such sanctions.

There is so much other garbage in the media these days but I don't see them facing the same repercussions. These sort of actions only embarrass Pakistan.

 

[JaDed]

It's easily the best news outlet in Pakistan and light years ahead of anything else in the country or even the region. Until about 2013, Express Tribune was up there but since then, it has fallen from grace spectacularly and is now more of a click bait tabloid with occasional bursts of quality every now and then. You rightly point out that The Hindu is of somewhat compareable quality though I must add that NDTV absolutely isn't even in the same ballpark. It's insulting to even name NDTV in the same breath as today's Express Tribune, much less the likes of Dawn or Hindu.

IMHO Tribune has a pro-USA agenda its so visible at times.

 

[Abhilash93]

A bit random, but Dawn I think is the best newspaper in south asia. Definitely not saying this because of this incident, I have been long believing it ever since I stumbled upon it one or two years ago. Was very refreshing to read its unbiased reporting and its interesting editorials on the culture of Pakistan and was a sea of change from the sensationalism driven tabloids you find in India like the times of India, etc. Think the hindu is probably the best in India on that regard, ndtv is decent as well but sometimes pushes its agenda. I'm not sure if the Dawn is the best in Pakistan but it's very good.

The Times of India is basically a huge ads page interspersed with news. And how it came about to this level after Samir Jain seized control from the editors in the 1990s is a very interesting story:

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/reportage/supreme-being


I stopped getting TOI at home a few years ago and reading Indian Express & The Hindu in the morning is a real joy, especially after one has gotten used to reading TOI for years.

 

[Zahid87]

They are actually Goans and his other brother Norbert Almeida also is a columnist of Dawn.

Ahh, my mistake then.

Dawn's Herald magazine is also a pretty good read.

TOI, judging by their website is similar to the tabloid papers in the UK.

The Hindu's website has improved a lot from what it used to be. Looks readable now. Before it was horrible. Content is decent.

 

[DW44]

Lol I get TOI at my home daily, anything looks better for me.

Why would you pay money to have your braincells killed? 83% of all TOI, Daily Mail and The Sun readers lose 83% of their braincells with 83 days of reading their respective papers daily.

IMHO Tribune has a pro-USA agenda its so visible at times.

Not really. Never got that impression from reading ET. The only issue on which they have a visible agenda is PTI/IK who they consistently oppose though to their credit, they usually do so with well researched and mostly factual arguments.

 

[WebGuru]

Interesting pic from yesterday meeting. Hero of that article looks worried and not looking into the eyes of COAS and DG ISI And interesting to see khadam-e-aala sitting in this meeting there should be a special reason for him sitting there...

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I love reading articles from Dawn online. Easily the best paper in the subcontinent. Even The Hindu is not that great these days. Better than garbage like TOI though.

 

[Abhilash93]

Lol I get TOI at my home daily, anything looks better for me.

TOI can never come up with original, investigative articles like the Indian Express, Caravan, LiveMint etc. regularly publish. Its just masala.

 

[Vorador]

Cyril Almeida is one good writer. I hope this isn't the end of him.

 

[Macho Man]

Non issue, to be honest, we all should concentrate on Islamabad lock down, which is, currently, the only way out for Pakistan, from the current leadership crisis.

 

[DW44]

Non issue, to be honest, we all should concentrate on Islamabad lock down, which is, currently, the only way out for Pakistan, from the current leadership crisis.

Not a non issue at all, it's a very serious issue in fact. This is a blatant attack on freedom of the press that our constitution guarantees and journalists have been killed in the past for reporting on this very issue. Imran Khan's annual circus has nothing to do with the topic at hand so I don't see why you bring that up in this particular thread and besides, it's not going to achieve anything. You don't get rid of corrupt governments by shutting down cities, you do so by developing institutions that can maintain checks and balances, something that takes decades.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

They are actually Goans and his other brother Norbert Almeida also is a columnist of Dawn.

Oh i did not know there were Goans in pakistan. Good to know

 

[Nostalgic]

Not that it is relevant to the topic, but Goans are a very prominent community when it comes to Pakistani popular music. I could list dozens of names, but just one should suffice: drummer extraordinaire Louis John Pinto, commonly known as Gumby.

There's an interesting dynamic within the Pakistani Christian community between the Goans and "native" Punjabi Christians. That dynamic serves as the backdrop to Muhammed Hanif's "Our Lady of Alice Bhatti."

 

[Macho Man]

Not a non issue at all, it's a very serious issue in fact. This is a blatant attack on freedom of the press that our constitution guarantees and journalists have been killed in the past for reporting on this very issue. Imran Khan's annual circus has nothing to do with the topic at hand so I don't see why you bring that up in this particular thread and besides, it's not going to achieve anything. You don't get rid of corrupt governments by shutting down cities, you do so by developing institutions that can maintain checks and balances, something that takes decades.

Only a heartless creature, who has no sympathies for those who are suffering, will call Imran Khan's lock down a circus. There is no other way to get rid of this incompetent government, as the concerned institutions are asleep.

 

[WebGuru]

Oh i did not know there were Goans in pakistan. Good to know

Not that it is relevant to the topic, but Goans are a very prominent community when it comes to Pakistani popular music. I could list dozens of names, but just one should suffice: drummer extraordinaire Louis John Pinto, commonly known as Gumby.

There's an interesting dynamic within the Pakistani Christian community between the Goans and "native" Punjabi Christians. That dynamic serves as the backdrop to Muhammed Hanif's "Our Lady of Alice Bhatti."

There is a whole website where you can see famous goans of Pakistan from different fields (music, judiciary, army, social etc) http://www.goansofpakistan.org

[MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] for musicians check http://www.goansofpakistan.org/mb.htm

 

[Nostalgic]

There is a whole website where you can see famous goans of Pakistan from different fields (music, judiciary, army, social etc) http://www.goansofpakistan.org

[MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] for musicians check http://www.goansofpakistan.org/mb.htm

Thanks. They still missed a few names though, but the Goans have been so prominent in music that that's inevitable.

The greatest Pakistani Goan of all time however is probably Chief Justice A.R. Cornelius.

 

[DW44]

Only a heartless creature, who has no sympathies for those who are suffering, will call Imran Khan's lock down a circus. There is no other way to get rid of this incompetent government, as the concerned institutions are asleep.

Ah, and here we go with the ad hominem attacks, how typically Insafian. IK's circus will do absolutely nothing to alleviate the suffering of the poor masses so I don't see how the two are even related. First, IK isn't about to get rid of the government with his circus, he'll just lock the city down while the government will continue to do whatever it is that they do(which, admittedly, is a bit of a mystery). Secondly, even if this government is replaced, that won't change our fortunes at all, we'll still be a third world country where the poor suffer and corruption thrives. IK has done a good job selling his snake oil to the gullible, poorly informed masses who lap up every bit of rubbish he peddles but anyone with even a cursory understanding of how governments and bureaucracies work would know that IK is full of the sticky brown stuff just as much as those he opposes.

 

[Nostalgic]

Will the circus performers, sorry, attendees be hanging their freshly laundered clothing from the assembly fence, and answering the call of nature in the bushes, like in 2014, or do they have better arrangements this time?

 

[Slog]

Oh i did not know there were Goans in pakistan. Good to know

goan christian community in karachi which left goa after indian army annexed it

 

[TQ89]

Before we jump on milt est bashing bandwagon we should also realize the ECL action is taken by a democratic goverment even if the pressure was from 'them' so PMLN fed govt is also responsible here and deserve all the criticism coming their way even from their own supporters on social media right now.

Good diversionary Tactic there

 

[TQ89]

Non issue, to be honest, we all should concentrate on Islamabad lock down, which is, currently, the only way out for Pakistan, from the current leadership crisis.

Man, that lockdown ain't gonna achieve anything. IK is just doing the same thing now that he accuses the rest of the parties leaders for e.g Exploiting the masses

 

[WebGuru]

So as expected this is another topi drama by pmln govt. Most jornos sitting on different media channels including Dawn reported Army wasn't behind this ECL tactic and govt only did it to further throw mud on army "look we are doing it only because of army pressure".

Mil was more interested in the person (or minister) who leaked the news to reporter.

Watching Zera Hat Key right now on Dawn News where Wusatullah is describing the whole event in a very interesting way by giving it a desi touch of PMLN history of topi dramas.

 

[WebGuru]

A tweet full of hope for Cyril bhai:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dont be sad.Once Nawaz registered sedition cases against <a href="https://twitter.com/LodhiMaleeha">@LodhiMaleeha</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/najamsethi">@najamsethi</a> . Today both r pillars of his regime. U ll be one day too <a href="https://t.co/X6Ohcv0sWw">https://t.co/X6Ohcv0sWw</a></p>— Rauf Klasra (@KlasraRauf) <a href="https://twitter.com/KlasraRauf/status/785576826924040193">October 10, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[waqar goraya]

Ah, and here we go with the ad hominem attacks, how typically Insafian. IK's circus will do absolutely nothing to alleviate the suffering of the poor masses so I don't see how the two are even related. First, IK isn't about to get rid of the government with his circus, he'll just lock the city down while the government will continue to do whatever it is that they do(which, admittedly, is a bit of a mystery). Secondly, even if this government is replaced, that won't change our fortunes at all, we'll still be a third world country where the poor suffer and corruption thrives. IK has done a good job selling his snake oil to the gullible, poorly informed masses who lap up every bit of rubbish he peddles but anyone with even a cursory understanding of how governments and bureaucracies work would know that IK is full of the sticky brown stuff just as much as those he opposes.

Some where you need to take a step ahead. Institutions don't develop themselves it needs an agency in the shape of men. Prevalence of corruption in any society is not anomaly but acceptance and justification for corruption is a malaise.

His idea of locking down a city is not the right way to pressurize government but reticence is not an option either.

Although i am not a typical Insaafian but i believe IK is way better than the rest so, thanks for branding us gullible, poorly informed.

 

[Waseem]

A tweet full of hope for Cyril bhai:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dont be sad.Once Nawaz registered sedition cases against <a href="https://twitter.com/LodhiMaleeha">@LodhiMaleeha</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/najamsethi">@najamsethi</a> . Today both r pillars of his regime. U ll be one day too <a href="https://t.co/X6Ohcv0sWw">https://t.co/X6Ohcv0sWw</a></p>— Rauf Klasra (@KlasraRauf) <a href="https://twitter.com/KlasraRauf/status/785576826924040193">October 10, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lol hope is not all lost for Almeida, whoever Nawaz Sharif has accused of sedition has wlays come back as his trusted advisor.
There is absolutely no doubt that Cyril is not making anything up, it is without a doubt government's strategy to make this issue controversial. Regardless of what has happened in the past, i think Army has gone after terrorists in the last few years and more needs to be done without a doubt but the article gives an impression that civlian government has been forcing Army to act against militants. The fact is both PMLN (alongwith PTI) weren't even in favour of Zarb e Azab and PMLN leadership have links to banned outfits (open secret). Off course Raheel Sharif is going to get mad at civilian government for not only twisting the facts but also delibrately leaking the confidential information?

 

[Waseem]

Ah, and here we go with the ad hominem attacks, how typically Insafian. IK's circus will do absolutely nothing to alleviate the suffering of the poor masses so I don't see how the two are even related. First, IK isn't about to get rid of the government with his circus, he'll just lock the city down while the government will continue to do whatever it is that they do(which, admittedly, is a bit of a mystery). Secondly, even if this government is replaced, that won't change our fortunes at all, we'll still be a third world country where the poor suffer and corruption thrives. IK has done a good job selling his snake oil to the gullible, poorly informed masses who lap up every bit of rubbish he peddles but anyone with even a cursory understanding of how governments and bureaucracies work would know that IK is full of the sticky brown stuff just as much as those he opposes.

No one likes instability, chaos, dharnas, violence etc but who is more at fault? Nawaz Sharif for destroying the insitutions and refusign to answer the questions or Imran Khan for putting pressure for accountability?
As Waqar pointed out, institutions don't develop themsleves, current government has appointed corrupt people as head of ALL top institutions and result is non functioning useless institutions (Watch Rauf Klasra/Amir Mateen) shows and you will be shocked to know how these people are appointed with corrupt background.

You can blame Imran Khan all you want but he has done in 3.5 years is improvement in institutions in KPK.

They have independent Police that works without any influence and even PMLN senators have admitted their performance + Punjab police is now demanding similar reforms.

They conducted local bodies elections, empowered people at local level and awarded funds to even non PTI reps. Now Sindh demands similar powers as KPK. There is no better example than this to GIVE UP power and funds and empower an average person.

Their independent ehtasaab commission was formed and even PTI ministers were arrested, they are facinf issues but step in the right direction.

Education and health reforms have been appreciated by experts and then there is "Right to Information", "whistleblower act" etc are all examples of strengthening institutions and empowering people. PTI may not have been most successful but it shows their preference within their first tenure.

But for some people, Imran is hell bent on destroying institutions (by rasiing LEGITIMATE questions against them) and Nawaz Sharif (of all people) is saviour of these institutions.

 

[DW44]

No one likes instability, chaos, dharnas, violence etc but who is more at fault? Nawaz Sharif for destroying the insitutions and refusign to answer the questions or Imran Khan for putting pressure for accountability?
As Waqar pointed out, institutions don't develop themsleves, current government has appointed corrupt people as head of ALL top institutions and result is non functioning useless institutions (Watch Rauf Klasra/Amir Mateen) shows and you will be shocked to know how these people are appointed with corrupt background.

You can blame Imran Khan all you want but he has done in 3.5 years is improvement in institutions in KPK.

They have independent Police that works without any influence and even PMLN senators have admitted their performance + Punjab police is now demanding similar reforms.

They conducted local bodies elections, empowered people at local level and awarded funds to even non PTI reps. Now Sindh demands similar powers as KPK. There is no better example than this to GIVE UP power and funds and empower an average person.

Their independent ehtasaab commission was formed and even PTI ministers were arrested, they are facinf issues but step in the right direction.

Education and health reforms have been appreciated by experts and then there is "Right to Information", "whistleblower act" etc are all examples of strengthening institutions and empowering people. PTI may not have been most successful but it shows their preference within their first tenure.

But for some people, Imran is hell bent on destroying institutions (by rasiing LEGITIMATE questions against them) and Nawaz Sharif (of all people) is saviour of these institutions.

Please.I have about as much patience for Nawaz Sharif's antics as I do for IK's but this is exactly the kind of intellectual dishonesty that is typical of youthias. If we're going to point fingers for destroying institutions, we should at least have the moral courage to identify the true culprit by name instead of going after whoever our leader's targeting at the time. You and I both know that Nawaz did not destroy the institutions any more than IK is capable of fixing them. The responsibility for that, while shared by all who have ruled Pakistan to some degree, lies mostly with our army against whom IK, not unsurprisingly, has nothing to say. I'm well aware of N's part in perpetuating institutional decline, no need to watch talk shows for that, but to present IK as a cure to that is delusional.

PTI's performance in KPK is actually a good indicator of the limits of his party's limitations when it comes to reform and while their followers love to produce long lists of areas where they have done wonders, the true facts on the ground aren't quite as rosy as you'd have us believe. The best that can be said is that they For starters, we absolutely don't have an independent, apolitical police force, just a slightly more independent and less political one than Punjab. This much was evident at the local body elections where any illusions of their independence or neutrality were shattered. Their ehtesaab commission has been mired in controversy since it's inception and while a few arrests have been made, there's also the fact that a head of the commission has resigned citing inability to do his job because of pressure from the provincial government. Education has seen a visibile improvement, that much I have personally witnessed, but then there's the fact that while funding and accessibility have improved, content has gone further down the drain because of repeated interference by JI. Health, OK, if you say so. Personally, I don't see much of a difference.

Then there's this gem: "But for some people, Imran is hell bent on destroying institutions (by rasiing LEGITIMATE questions against them) and Nawaz Sharif (of all people) is saviour of these institutions."

What does one even say to that? The fact that you immediately label any critic of IK as a Nawaz fan speaks volumes to the average *******'s mindset. The world is not binary and not every choice is an either/or one. Hard as it may be for a ******* to imagine, people can be against Nawaz and still be against IK based on his policies rather than any petty political differences because of party affiliation. Its clear that Nawaz's antics cut about as much ice with me as IK's but to try and devalue one's opinion by declaring them a Nawaz supporter in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary says it all really.

 

[Macho Man]

Ah, and here we go with the ad hominem attacks, how typically Insafian. IK's circus will do absolutely nothing to alleviate the suffering of the poor masses so I don't see how the two are even related. First, IK isn't about to get rid of the government with his circus, he'll just lock the city down while the government will continue to do whatever it is that they do(which, admittedly, is a bit of a mystery). Secondly, even if this government is replaced, that won't change our fortunes at all, we'll still be a third world country where the poor suffer and corruption thrives. IK has done a good job selling his snake oil to the gullible, poorly informed masses who lap up every bit of rubbish he peddles but anyone with even a cursory understanding of how governments and bureaucracies work would know that IK is full of the sticky brown stuff just as much as those he opposes.

This is not an ad hominem attack, I am not an Insafian, this is not a circus, look you don't have any sympathies for those who are suffering, the sufferings will be alleviated after a sincere person takes over. You are living in a world of fantasies, after removing this incompetent government, a step in the right direction will be taken, nothing will change overnight, but will time we will definitely improve, and this third world tag is an artificial one. IK knows more than you do, he has faced the ground realities, unlike you.

 

[Macho Man]

Man, that lockdown ain't gonna achieve anything. IK is just doing the same thing now that he accuses the rest of the parties leaders for e.g Exploiting the masses

He knows more than we do, so just wait and watch. And he is not exploiting the masses, most of his accusations are true, in a way.

 

[DW44]

This is not an ad hominem attack, I am not an Insafian, this is not a circus, look you don't have any sympathies for those who are suffering, the sufferings will be alleviated after a sincere person takes over. You are living in a world of fantasies, after removing this incompetent government, a step in the right direction will be taken, nothing will change overnight, but will time we will definitely improve, and this third world tag is an artificial one. IK knows more than you do, he has faced the ground realities, unlike you.

How is it not an ad hominem attack when you're attacking my character for having a different opinion to yours? What you're basically saying is that I have no sympathy for the suffering of the poor because I oppose a political party? How does that work? It's a little ironic of you to talk about worlds of fantasy given what you're saying here which can basically be summed up as PTI will overthrow the government by a street protest in Islamabad and the fall of the government will turn our fortunes for the better. Seriously, how old are you? That's not at all how it works and you may feel that IK knows more, his rhetoric and performance so far suggest otherwise.

In any case, what I don't see is the relevance of bringing the protest up in this thread in the first place? How is Cyril Almeida's treatment in any way related to IK's protest? Since IK's all about securing people's rights and improving their lot, care to tell me what IK's response to this blatant assault on Cyril's human rights has been? No? IK ran his mouth on this particular issue and declared Cyril a "noon ka supporter". That's right. Cyril Almeida of all people gets declared a noora, that says all that needs to be said about IK's credibility.

 

[Macho Man]

How is it not an ad hominem attack when you're attacking my character for having a different opinion to yours? What you're basically saying is that I have no sympathy for the suffering of the poor because I oppose a political party? How does that work? It's a little ironic of you to talk about worlds of fantasy given what you're saying here which can basically be summed up as PTI will overthrow the government by a street protest in Islamabad and the fall of the government will turn our fortunes for the better. Seriously, how old are you? That's not at all how it works and you may feel that IK knows more, his rhetoric and performance so far suggest otherwise.

In any case, what I don't see is the relevance of bringing the protest up in this thread in the first place? How is Cyril Almeida's treatment in any way related to IK's protest? Since IK's all about securing people's rights and improving their lot, care to tell me what IK's response to this blatant assault on Cyril's human rights has been? No? IK ran his mouth on this particular issue and declared Cyril a "noon ka supporter". That's right. Cyril Almeida of all people gets declared a noora, that says all that needs to be said about IK's credibility.

I have not attacked your character, don't act like a sensitive girl, be a man. It's not about opposing a political party, but you are calling IK's movement a circus, which is disgusting to see, you are speaking the language of our incompetent rulers, he is doing this for Pakistanis who have suffered under this democracy, he realistically tried every other way, but didn't get justice, so this lockdown is the only way out now. If you have any sympathies for those who have suffered, you will understand that after the removal of an incompetent governments, comes relief, but this is the only first step, after that things improve with time.

I don't give a damn about Cyril Almeida, whoever he is, it's a non issue, which will fade away within days.

 

[DW44]

I have not attacked your character, don't act like a sensitive girl, be a man. It's not about opposing a political party, but you are calling IK's movement a circus, which is disgusting to see, you are speaking the language of our incompetent rulers, he is doing this for Pakistanis who have suffered under this democracy, he realistically tried every other way, but didn't get justice, so this lockdown is the only way out now. If you have any sympathies for those who have suffered, you will understand that after the removal of an incompetent governments, comes relief, but this is the only first step, after that things improve with time.

I don't give a damn about Cyril Almeida, whoever he is, it's a non issue, which will fade away within days.

They don't make 'em too bright at the PTI HQ, do they? So lets look at this for a second. You're claiming that I'm insensitive to the plight of those who have suffered at the hands of the PML-N government and my opposition to PTI is proof of that? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds in a thread where I'm protesting on behalf of an ordinary Pakistani citizen who is, as we speak, being persecuted and stripped of his constitutional rights by the very government that you claim I support, for doing his job and exercising another one of his constitutional rights? How does that work? You then go on to claim that you don't give a crap about Cyril and that it's a non issue that will fade and yet you fail to see the irony of you accusing me of being oblivious to the plight of those being wronged by the Nawaz government? Are you for real?

 

[Macho Man]

They don't make 'em too bright at the PTI HQ, do they? So lets look at this for a second. You're claiming that I'm insensitive to the plight of those who have suffered at the hands of the PML-N government and my opposition to PTI is proof of that? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds in a thread where I'm protesting on behalf of an ordinary Pakistani citizen who is, as we speak, being persecuted and stripped of his constitutional rights by the very government that you claim I support, for doing his job and exercising another one of his constitutional rights? How does that work? You then go on to claim that you don't give a crap about Cyril and that it's a non issue that will fade and yet you fail to see the irony of you accusing me of being oblivious to the plight of those being wronged by the Nawaz government? Are you for real?

What PTI HQ? Poor question. I appreciate that you have supported a suffering Pakistani against the government over here, but on the other hand you called IK's struggle a circus, which was quite cruel of you.

 

[DW44]

What PTI HQ? Poor question. I appreciate that you have supported a suffering Pakistani against the government over here, but on the other hand you called IK's struggle a circus, which was quite cruel of you.

You do realize that one can have good reasons to be opposed to PTI's shenanigans and still care about the plight of those who are victims of the current government's policies? It's not an either/or choice by any means and there are more than enough valid reasons to be against both PML and PTI.

 

[Macho Man]

You do realize that one can have good reasons to be opposed to PTI's shenanigans and still care about the plight of those who are victims of the current government's policies? It's not an either/or choice by any means and there are more than enough valid reasons to be against both PML and PTI.

But in the current situation, realistically, it's IK vs the status quo, if you call IK's struggle a circus, then you are with the status quo, intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[DW44]

But in the current situation, realistically, it's IK vs the status quo, if you call IK's struggle a circus, then you are with the status quo, intentionally or unintentionally.

Not really, that's just how PTI supporters see it. For those who are neutral, PTI too is part of the status quo as it's very much a party of the establishment and represents many of the same ills that others do. While it may have certain redeeming qualities, they don't represent much of an improvement over the incumbents on many more important fronts. What PTI's supporter base doesn't seem to understand is that supporting or opposing political factions is not a binary either/or choice, one can oppose all parties for their failings and support their good policies without committing to one.

 

[Bewal Express]

Not really, that's just how PTI supporters see it. For those who are neutral, PTI too is part of the status quo as it's very much a party of the establishment and represents many of the same ills that others do. While it may have certain redeeming qualities, they don't represent much of an improvement over the incumbents on many more important fronts. What PTI's supporter base doesn't seem to understand is that supporting or opposing political factions is not a binary either/or choice, one can oppose all parties for their failings and support their good policies without committing to one.

Can you please list the ways the institutions could be reformed without going on to the streets.

 

[Macho Man]

Not really, that's just how PTI supporters see it. For those who are neutral, PTI too is part of the status quo as it's very much a party of the establishment and represents many of the same ills that others do. While it may have certain redeeming qualities, they don't represent much of an improvement over the incumbents on many more important fronts. What PTI's supporter base doesn't seem to understand is that supporting or opposing political factions is not a binary either/or choice, one can oppose all parties for their failings and support their good policies without committing to one.

It shows you don't follow Pakistani politics, and aren't aware of the ground realities. Can you prove that PTI is a party of the establishment?

 

[DW44]

Can you please list the ways the institutions could be reformed without going on to the streets.

How does going to the streets bring about institutional reform particularly in a country where the sitting government has already proven to be completely unperturbed by such shenanigans in the past? If they're serious about institutional reform, they should go to the courts, use their parliamentary presence to raise the issue there and force a debate on it, implement the reforms where they're in power first and if all else fails, win an election and implement the reforms. What will not bring about reforms is shutting down the national capital and a major economic hub while shouting insults from containers, something that has already been tried and failed not too long ago. It didn't bother the government then, it won't now. Then there's the fact that any institutional reforms are meaningless until the institutions themselves are strong which takes time and economic growth but that's a completely different debate altogether.

It shows you don't follow Pakistani politics, and aren't aware of the ground realities. Can you prove that PTI is a party of the establishment?

I do, actually. Very keenly in fact. I cannot prove that PTI is an establishment party any more than you can prove any allegations of corruption against Nawaz Sharif or Zardari as neither of us is privy to the inner workings of our political system but my opinions are informed just as much as what I observe on a daily basis, what I know from following and studying our political system and its history, and simply observing who benefits from the actions of various players.

 

[Macho Man]

How does going to the streets bring about institutional reform particularly in a country where the sitting government has already proven to be completely unperturbed by such shenanigans in the past? If they're serious about institutional reform, they should go to the courts, use their parliamentary presence to raise the issue there and force a debate on it, implement the reforms where they're in power first and if all else fails, win an election and implement the reforms. What will not bring about reforms is shutting down the national capital and a major economic hub while shouting insults from containers, something that has already been tried and failed not too long ago. It didn't bother the government then, it won't now. Then there's the fact that any institutional reforms are meaningless until the institutions themselves are strong which takes time and economic growth but that's a completely different debate altogether.


I do, actually. Very keenly in fact. I cannot prove that PTI is an establishment party any more than you can prove any allegations of corruption against Nawaz Sharif or Zardari as neither of us is privy to the inner workings of our political system but my opinions are informed just as much as what I observe on a daily basis, what I know from following and studying our political system and its history, and simply observing who benefits from the actions of various players.

No, you don't, you are out of touch from the reality, calling IK's struggle a circus is enough to prove it. Then why did you call it an establishment party? I haven't mentioned Nawaz or Zardari here, so I don't even need to prove their corruption to you.

 

[DW44]

No, you don't, you are out of touch from the reality, calling IK's struggle a circus is enough to prove it. Then why did you call it an establishment party? I haven't mentioned Nawaz or Zardari here, so I don't even need to prove their corruption to you.

What rubbish. This is basically your version of "anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong". Opposing PTI does not, in any way, equate to being ignorant of the political landscape in Pakistan. There are many people better informed than either of us who have very valid reasons to oppose PTI because while you may see them as a one size fits all solution to our problems, others may, for equally good reasons, see them as a dressed up version of more of the same. I called them an establishment party because I believe them to be one based on what I know of how the Pakistani political system works and PTI's past actions. I realize independent thinking and having an opinion of your own is looked down on in PTI's ranks but it's a good quality to have. I don't need to prove anything to you any more than you do to me so why ask?

Anyway, if you want to debate PTI vs the world, I suggest you start a new thread instead of derailing this one. The issue at hand is a serious one and I'd prefer it didn't get drowned out by PTI vs PML.

 

[Macho Man]

What rubbish. This is basically your version of "anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong". Opposing PTI does not, in any way, equate to being ignorant of the political landscape in Pakistan. There are many people better informed than either of us who have very valid reasons to oppose PTI because while you may see them as a one size fits all solution to our problems, others may, for equally good reasons, see them as a dressed up version of more of the same. I called them an establishment party because I believe them to be one based on what I know of how the Pakistani political system works and PTI's past actions. I realize independent thinking and having an opinion of your own is looked down on in PTI's ranks but it's a good quality to have. I don't need to prove anything to you any more than you do to me so why ask?

Lame. It's not about PTI, it's about Pakistan. IK is better informed than us for sure. IK may not be perfect, but realistically, in the current situation, he is the only one challenging the status quo, but the tragedy is, you aren't aware of the realities. Such a weak way to present PTI as an establishment party. What should I have to prove to you? I asked because you called PTI an establishment party.

 

[Bewal Express]

How does going to the streets bring about institutional reform particularly in a country where the sitting government has already proven to be completely unperturbed by such shenanigans in the past? If they're serious about institutional reform, they should go to the courts, use their parliamentary presence to raise the issue there and force a debate on it, implement the reforms where they're in power first and if all else fails, win an election and implement the reforms. What will not bring about reforms is shutting down the national capital and a major economic hub while shouting insults from containers, something that has already been tried and failed not too long ago. It didn't bother the government then, it won't now. Then there's the fact that any institutional reforms are meaningless until the institutions themselves are strong which takes time and economic growth but that's a completely different debate altogether.



I do, actually. Very keenly in fact. I cannot prove that PTI is an establishment party any more than you can prove any allegations of corruption against Nawaz Sharif or Zardari as neither of us is privy to the inner workings of our political system but my opinions are informed just as much as what I observe on a daily basis, what I know from following and studying our political system and its history, and simply observing who benefits from the actions of various players.

Basically you want nothing done, the courts have failed and will always be game for the $, the proof of the pudding is the fact the neither the Sharifs or AZ have been convicted of a single thing and we are one of the most corrupt countries in the world, you say go to parliament, a parliament the PM doesnt even go to( except when he fears losing his thrown), nor do govt MP`S or the opposition because no worthwhile debate or decisions are made. Yo say win elections, when the whole system is rigged- from the ECP all the way to the returning officers. If none of these can be changed from within the system, then the system needs to be destroyed.You sound like a Noora, whilst desperately pretending that you arent so that you dont get ridiculed.

 

[DW44]

Lame. It's not about PTI, it's about Pakistan. IK is better informed than us for sure. IK may not be perfect, but realistically, in the current situation, he is the only one challenging the status quo, but the tragedy is, you aren't aware of the realities. Such a weak way to present PTI as an establishment party. What should I have to prove to you? I asked because you called PTI an establishment party.

Lame? Like I asked before, how old are you? This is more of the same "I'm right and you're wrong" rubbish with any differing opinion being dismissed as uninformed and against Pakistan as is so typical of PTI. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that your opinions will be accepted as indisputable facts and your reaction to anyone not living up to that expectation is childish name calling which forces me to question whether you're mature enough to be having this debate in the first place. Again, if you want to debate this point further, start a new thread, don't derail this one.

 

[DW44]

Basically you want nothing done, the courts have failed and will always be game for the $, the proof of the pudding is the fact the neither the Sharifs or AZ have been convicted of a single thing and we are one of the most corrupt countries in the world, you say go to parliament, a parliament the PM doesnt even go to( except when he fears losing his thrown), nor do govt MP`S or the opposition because no worthwhile debate or decisions are made. Yo say win elections, when the whole system is rigged- from the ECP all the way to the returning officers. If none of these can be changed from within the system, then the system needs to be destroyed.You sound like a Noora, whilst desperately pretending that you arent so that you dont get ridiculed.

Big difference between wanting nothing done and wanting things done right. The courts did not seem to have any issue when they were disqualifying sitting PMs left and right during PPP's governments and that's something only a judiciary with at least some degree of independence can do so the courts for sale theory is a little outdated but then I wouldn't expect you to know the nitty gritty of our legal system any more than I'd be expected to know the intricacies your country's legal system. This particular impression is strengthened by your claim of the whole system being rigged when, the consensus among most commentators here is that while there were serious irregularities in the election process, there wasn't nearly enough rigging to significantly alter the results in anyone's favor with only a few seats where the results were changed outright which is par for the course in a country at Pakistan's level of development. IK lost the elections because he focused all his energies on urban voters while completely disregarding the rural masses, especially in Punjab, who make up the vast majority of voters and account for PML-N's electoral superiority, a mistake he still hasn't corrected which will cost him the next election too. That you need to resort to calling me a Noora to make your point despite it being blindingly obvious that I have as much love for them as I do for PTI or PPP, or the fact that it's my province that suffers every time Nawaz is PM, says volumes about the maturity of your average PTI supporter. Anyhow, like I said to the other guy, if you want to debate PTI vs the world, start another thread. The issue at hand in this one is serious and doesn't get the attention it requires as it is even without PTI's groupies hijacking the discussion.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Pakistani liberals have the double disadvantage while taking up fight for their nation. One, they get into the cross hairs of the establishment, and two, the far right crowd across the border tries to co-opt them and makes them look anti-pakistan.

 

[Bewal Express]

Big difference between wanting nothing done and wanting things done right. The courts did not seem to have any issue when they were disqualifying sitting PMs left and right during PPP's governments and that's something only a judiciary with at least some degree of independence can do so the courts for sale theory is a little outdated but then I wouldn't expect you to know the nitty gritty of our legal system any more than I'd be expected to know the intricacies your country's legal system. This particular impression is strengthened by your claim of the whole system being rigged when, the consensus among most commentators here is that while there were serious irregularities in the election process, there wasn't nearly enough rigging to significantly alter the results in anyone's favor with only a few seats where the results were changed outright which is par for the course in a country at Pakistan's level of development. IK lost the elections because he focused all his energies on urban voters while completely disregarding the rural masses, especially in Punjab, who make up the vast majority of voters and account for PML-N's electoral superiority, a mistake he still hasn't corrected which will cost him the next election too. That you need to resort to calling me a Noora to make your point despite it being blindingly obvious that I have as much love for them as I do for PTI or PPP, or the fact that it's my province that suffers every time Nawaz is PM, says volumes about the maturity of your average PTI supporter. Anyhow, like I said to the other guy, if you want to debate PTI vs the world, start another thread. The issue at hand in this one is serious and doesn't get the attention it requires as it is even without PTI's groupies hijacking the discussion.

Listen my friend you may or may not be a Noora, but your arguments as to work within a system that is broken is the same they put forward by criminal Nooras, knowing full well that it aint going to happen because they wont allow it to happen, as far the Judiciary is concerned- it is corrupt to the core and the disqualification of the PPP PM was more to do with one CJ getting a bee in his bonnet than fundamental change.

 

[DW44]

Listen my friend you may or may not be a Noora, but your arguments as to work within a system that is broken is the same they put forward by criminal Nooras, knowing full well that it aint going to happen because they wont allow it to happen, as far the Judiciary is concerned- it is corrupt to the core and the disqualification of the PPP PM was more to do with one CJ getting a bee in his bonnet than fundamental change.

So anyone who doesn't support PTI or dares question the might IK is a noora, regardless of whether or not they actually support PML? That's essentially what you seem to be implying considering most of the opinions express here are highly critical of PTI but not at all supportive of PML. It's this kind of binary, one track thought process that makes one question the intelligence of your average PTI supporter. And while we're on it, what's a 'noora' anyway? When did asinine name calling become an acceptable alternative to making your arguments in a civilized manner? Whats ironic is that these same people who run around acting like spoiled 15 year olds complain about Modi's fanbase across the border despite being the closest Pakistani equivalent to the Bhakts themselves.

 

[Macho Man]

Lame? Like I asked before, how old are you? This is more of the same "I'm right and you're wrong" rubbish with any differing opinion being dismissed as uninformed and against Pakistan as is so typical of PTI. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that your opinions will be accepted as indisputable facts and your reaction to anyone not living up to that expectation is childish name calling which forces me to question whether you're mature enough to be having this debate in the first place. Again, if you want to debate this point further, start a new thread, don't derail this one.

You seem to be living in a world of fantasies, you seem to think that everything is fine, hence terming IK's struggle a circus. If I am derailing this thread, then why did you reply to my post in the first place, this is quite lame from you now, also you couldn't prove PTI as the establishment party, so diverting from it now, in a way.

 

[DW44]

You seem to be living in a world of fantasies, you seem to think that everything is fine, hence terming IK's struggle a circus. If I am derailing this thread, then why did you reply to my post in the first place, this is quite lame from you now, also you couldn't prove PTI as the establishment party, so diverting from it now, in a way.

I replied to your post because you were dismissing the topic at hand as a non issue and promoting the circus at the same time. If you had started a separate thread for the circus, I would have had no reason to post there. My consternation was at the shameless hypocrisy of dismissing the issue at hand as insignificant and introducing a completely unrelated one which, ironically enough, claims to support the same values that your are dismissing as a non issue here. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of what an opinion is and the fact that I don't need to prove anything to you in order to have an opinion.

 

[Macho Man]

I replied to your post because you were dismissing the topic at hand as a non issue and promoting the circus at the same time. If you had started a separate thread for the circus, I would have had no reason to post there. My consternation was at the shameless hypocrisy of dismissing the issue at hand as insignificant and introducing a completely unrelated one which, ironically enough, claims to support the same values that your are dismissing as a non issue here. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of what an opinion is and the fact that I don't need to prove anything to you in order to have an opinion.

If you don't need to prove anything to me, then don't say things if can't back them up.

 

[DW44]

If you don't need to prove anything to me, then don't say things if can't back them up.

Again, no concept of what an opinion is. I am perfectly entitled to have an opinion without having to provide formal documentary evidence to support every opinion I have.

 

[Macho Man]

Again, no concept of what an opinion is. I am perfectly entitled to have an opinion without having to provide formal documentary evidence to support every opinion I have.

Calling PTI an establishment party is not just an opinion, it's an accusation as well.

 

[DW44]

Calling PTI an establishment party is not just an opinion, it's an accusation as well.

Either way, it's a claim I'm perfectly entitled to make based on my understanding of the political system and opinions formed over years of observing and experiencing the system.

 

[Bewal Express]

So anyone who doesn't support PTI or dares question the might IK is a noora, regardless of whether or not they actually support PML? That's essentially what you seem to be implying considering most of the opinions express here are highly critical of PTI but not at all supportive of PML. It's this kind of binary, one track thought process that makes one question the intelligence of your average PTI supporter. And while we're on it, what's a 'noora' anyway? When did asinine name calling become an acceptable alternative to making your arguments in a civilized manner? Whats ironic is that these same people who run around acting like spoiled 15 year olds complain about Modi's fanbase across the border despite being the closest Pakistani equivalent to the Bhakts themselves.

As someone pretending to be so clever, you can always use google to find out what a Noora is. What I find annoying about people like you is that you deliberately ignore the facts such as the capture of state institutions and criticise anyone who challenges the mafia. You still didn't give any credible reply to My challenge to you as to what can be done when all the institutions are corrupt and act on the behalf of the mafia.