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Dawn's columnist Cyril Almeida put on Exit Control List for 'misleading' story on national security

Either way, it's a claim I'm perfectly entitled to make based on my understanding of the political system and opinions formed over years of observing and experiencing the system.

So you can insult the PTI and call them an establishment party- so established in fact that they have never been in power. I take back what I said earlier, you are Noora any day of the week because that is the only insult they can come up with.
 
As someone pretending to be so clever, you can always use google to find out what a Noora is. What I find annoying about people like you is that you deliberately ignore the facts such as the capture of state institutions and criticise anyone who challenges the mafia. You still didn't give any credible reply to My challenge to you as to what can be done when all the institutions are corrupt and act on the behalf of the mafia.

Oh really? Google? How could I not have thought of that? If you spent less time getting annoyed at me for ignoring facts and actually familiarized yourself with these facts you're referring to, you might have been able to have a civilized debate without having to resort to petty name calling. Your incessant whining about the utter and complete lack of an alternative comes across as mighty disingenuous when you dismiss a viable solution out of hand based on an incorrect assumption of yours. Your challenge is a joke since you're clearly not interested in viable solutions, bashing nooras is the name of the game here so by all means continue.

So you can insult the PTI and call them an establishment party- so established in fact that they have never been in power. I take back what I said earlier, you are Noora any day of the week because that is the only insult they can come up with.

No different to your claims of mass rigging to the extent that results were altered wholesale when your party still managed to win an entire province and several seats elsewhere but I guess it's true what they say about arguing with fools. If the average PTI supporter cannot process a more complex equation than Noora or one of ours and you insist on reducing it to those terms then fine, I'd much rather be a Noora than the PTI equivalent(which for some reason is a banned word, so much for political neutrality).
 
DW44 is not a Noora, he is a big critic of the PMLN so calling him a Noora is unfair IMO.

Though I disagree with him re: institutions. The complete inaction after Panama Leaks shows the institutions are gone.
 
So you can insult the PTI and call them an establishment party- so established in fact that they have never been in power. I take back what I said earlier, you are Noora any day of the week because that is the only insult they can come up with.

I agree PTI are not an establishment party. Unlike Noon League, they were not born under a dictator nor has IK ever served under any dictator. He rejected PMship under Musharraf as well.
 
Here is something I posted few months ago.

Make no mistake OP, only group that is actually calling/hoping for Martial Law is PML-N. Being in givernment for a full term when you haven't delivered means the party vote bank disintegrate, as we have seen happening with PPP.

PML-N, having full awareness of this fact, are propagating a brainwave among masses to invite army so PML-N can play Victim Card once again in future. Make no mistakes, Nawaz will go to any extent to enforce a Martial Law because that's his only hope and face saving. Nawaz will start playing dirty with army in 6 months time.

Audience at PP are not that naive to overlook this.

What worries me is that other political parties may end up falling for this trap of PML-N and will start inviting army. This should not happen. Have to be very very cautious.
 
DW44 is not a Noora, he is a big critic of the PMLN so calling him a Noora is unfair IMO.

Though I disagree with him re: institutions. The complete inaction after Panama Leaks shows the institutions are gone.

The reason I think he is a Noora is that his arguments are exactly the same ones put forward put forward on IK by Nooras such as he is the establishment man blah blah, don't do anything because doing something won't work or let's make the existing institutions do their work etc etc. So if he isn't a Noora, what he is?
 
The reason I think he is a Noora is that his arguments are exactly the same ones put forward put forward on IK by Nooras such as he is the establishment man blah blah, don't do anything because doing something won't work or let's make the existing institutions do their work etc etc. So if he isn't a Noora, what he is?

It just makes him a critic. I agree with you that IK is not establishment, otherwise he'd been in power after dharna or he'd accepted PM ship under Mush. Our institutions are not sincere, Panama leaks proves it.

I believe IK will win over his critics, he can't be worse than the donkeys now.
 
Oh really? Google? How could I not have thought of that? If you spent less time getting annoyed at me for ignoring facts and actually familiarized yourself with these facts you're referring to, you might have been able to have a civilized debate without having to resort to petty name calling. Your incessant whining about the utter and complete lack of an alternative comes across as mighty disingenuous when you dismiss a viable solution out of hand based on an incorrect assumption of yours. Your challenge is a joke since you're clearly not interested in viable solutions, bashing nooras is the name of the game here so by all means continue.



No different to your claims of mass rigging to the extent that results were altered wholesale when your party still managed to win an entire province and several seats elsewhere but I guess it's true what they say about arguing with fools. If the average PTI supporter cannot process a more complex equation than Noora or one of ours and you insist on reducing it to those terms then fine, I'd much rather be a Noora than the PTI equivalent(which for some reason is a banned word, so much for political neutrality).

My friend you said you didn't know what is commonly described as a Noora and then on the other you tell us that you are using your experience to tell us that IK is an establishment man, make up your mind. As far as the rigging is concerned, only a diehard Noora can claim that no rigging took place, tell us with with your experience of PK politics what the outcome of the 4 constituencies that were the were the originally complained about? Your arguments are exactly what every Noora puts forward on every forum and they are rubbish on those forums and they are rubbish on here.
 
Please.I have about as much patience for Nawaz Sharif's antics as I do for IK's but this is exactly the kind of intellectual dishonesty that is typical of youthias. If we're going to point fingers for destroying institutions, we should at least have the moral courage to identify the true culprit by name instead of going after whoever our leader's targeting at the time. You and I both know that Nawaz did not destroy the institutions any more than IK is capable of fixing them. The responsibility for that, while shared by all who have ruled Pakistan to some degree, lies mostly with our army against whom IK, not unsurprisingly, has nothing to say. I'm well aware of N's part in perpetuating institutional decline, no need to watch talk shows for that, but to present IK as a cure to that is delusional.

PTI's performance in KPK is actually a good indicator of the limits of his party's limitations when it comes to reform and while their followers love to produce long lists of areas where they have done wonders, the true facts on the ground aren't quite as rosy as you'd have us believe. The best that can be said is that they For starters, we absolutely don't have an independent, apolitical police force, just a slightly more independent and less political one than Punjab. This much was evident at the local body elections where any illusions of their independence or neutrality were shattered. Their ehtesaab commission has been mired in controversy since it's inception and while a few arrests have been made, there's also the fact that a head of the commission has resigned citing inability to do his job because of pressure from the provincial government. Education has seen a visibile improvement, that much I have personally witnessed, but then there's the fact that while funding and accessibility have improved, content has gone further down the drain because of repeated interference by JI. Health, OK, if you say so. Personally, I don't see much of a difference.

Then there's this gem: "But for some people, Imran is hell bent on destroying institutions (by rasiing LEGITIMATE questions against them) and Nawaz Sharif (of all people) is saviour of these institutions."

What does one even say to that? The fact that you immediately label any critic of IK as a Nawaz fan speaks volumes to the average *******'s mindset. The world is not binary and not every choice is an either/or one. Hard as it may be for a ******* to imagine, people can be against Nawaz and still be against IK based on his policies rather than any petty political differences because of party affiliation. Its clear that Nawaz's antics cut about as much ice with me as IK's but to try and devalue one's opinion by declaring them a Nawaz supporter in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary says it all really.

I didn't call you a Nawaz supporter, it's plain and simple if you are really sick of this system and want changes (functioning institutions) then you have to support someone who has at least tried to improve the institutions otherwise by default you are supporting people who are purposely abusing the system (whether you provide them direct support is irrelevant).

As Asad Umar said in "Off the Record" today "Dunya main koi nizaam aisa nahi jo khud ba khud theek ho jaaye, Allah ko bhi jahannum ki warning deni pari insaan k Amaal ko theek rakhnay k liye, nizaam main behtri tab aati hai jab is nizaam ko chalaanay walay khud suffer kar rahay hon, aaj k hukmaraan is nizaam se be intiha khush hain so kyun change kareingay"

I gave you proper examples of Imran genuinely trying to make institutions functional, when you have policies, rules & regulations that are implemented without a bias then doesn't matter if Imran has crooks around him or angels, functioning institutions are enough to make significant difference.
 
I didn't call you a Nawaz supporter, it's plain and simple if you are really sick of this system and want changes (functioning institutions) then you have to support someone who has at least tried to improve the institutions otherwise by default you are supporting people who are purposely abusing the system (whether you provide them direct support is irrelevant).

As Asad Umar said in "Off the Record" today "Dunya main koi nizaam aisa nahi jo khud ba khud theek ho jaaye, Allah ko bhi jahannum ki warning deni pari insaan k Amaal ko theek rakhnay k liye, nizaam main behtri tab aati hai jab is nizaam ko chalaanay walay khud suffer kar rahay hon, aaj k hukmaraan is nizaam se be intiha khush hain so kyun change kareingay"

I gave you proper examples of Imran genuinely trying to make institutions functional, when you have policies, rules & regulations that are implemented without a bias then doesn't matter if Imran has crooks around him or angels, functioning institutions are enough to make significant difference.

All fair enough so the main point of contention between us is whether or not Imran truly stands for the change we'd like to see and whether or not the change that he represents is an improvement over the existing system. You clearly seem to think that he's the need of the hour and I'm firm in my belief that whatever improvements he offers, and he does offer a few no doubt, are more than made up for by the areas where he represents a step back. That has more to do with our differing visions for the country as you clearly see corruption as the primary issue plaguing the country which is fair enough since it has undoubtedly played a major role in getting us to where we are. For me, however, corruption is not even in the same ballpark as the bigger issue that is political Islam and extremism. Again, I doubt we'll ever agree on that despite there being good enough arguments on both sides to support the two positions.

I partly agree with Asad Umar in that the current system undoubtedly favors the existing status quo and the likes of PML and PPP couldn't be happier but when he says koi nizam khud theek nai hota, he's being a little shortsighted. I see it as an organic process that takes time but, ultimately, it's a self correcting process. Democratic states live and die on public opinion and power and that's something that takes time to build up. Forcing change from the top has rarely, if ever, worked. I can't think of any examples of top-down changes producing fruit though I'm sure there must be some.

I acknowledged the examples you gave albeit with some reservations(education is my main concern) and while it's admirable that they're doing what they're doing(I'm a KPK voter so I have had the opportunity to witness some of the good stuff first hand) but again, what concerns me is the not so bright side of PTI which overshadows, in my opinion, whatever good they have done or may do in the future. My greatest fear with a potential PTI government is a repeat of the Zia era albeit with a democratic flavor i.e. Modi with Pakistani characteristics. That's something I'm extremely vary of, to the point where I would reluctantly chose a corrupt system over one where honest extremists are in power.
 
I'm pretty sure that this is the guy who leaked this story.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PQbun4-tV7A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
I'm pretty sure that this is the guy who leaked this story.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PQbun4-tV7A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't think he was even in the meeting. The guys at Dawn were hinting heavily last night that the source of the leak was Chaudhary Nisar.
 
Wasn't Ch.Nisar supposed to be the one person in pml-n who was on good terms with the military establishment and often acted as a bridge between them and the govt? Why would he do something like that?
 
Wasn't Ch.Nisar supposed to be the one person in pml-n who was on good terms with the military establishment and often acted as a bridge between them and the govt? Why would he do something like that?

That's the impression he gives but who knows what goes on behind closed doors. Besides, it may not even be him since they didn't actually say who it was. Either way, this was a masterclass in shooting yourself in the foot by PML-N and the sheer level of stupidity on display here wouldn't be out of place in a Road Runner episode.
 
I don't think Ch Nisar was behind it and maybe...it's time for another typical jamhoori shahadat by PMLN for a face saving...
 
All fair enough so the main point of contention between us is whether or not Imran truly stands for the change we'd like to see and whether or not the change that he represents is an improvement over the existing system. You clearly seem to think that he's the need of the hour and I'm firm in my belief that whatever improvements he offers, and he does offer a few no doubt, are more than made up for by the areas where he represents a step back. That has more to do with our differing visions for the country as you clearly see corruption as the primary issue plaguing the country which is fair enough since it has undoubtedly played a major role in getting us to where we are. For me, however, corruption is not even in the same ballpark as the bigger issue that is political Islam and extremism. Again, I doubt we'll ever agree on that despite there being good enough arguments on both sides to support the two positions.

I partly agree with Asad Umar in that the current system undoubtedly favors the existing status quo and the likes of PML and PPP couldn't be happier but when he says koi nizam khud theek nai hota, he's being a little shortsighted. I see it as an organic process that takes time but, ultimately, it's a self correcting process. Democratic states live and die on public opinion and power and that's something that takes time to build up. Forcing change from the top has rarely, if ever, worked. I can't think of any examples of top-down changes producing fruit though I'm sure there must be some.

I acknowledged the examples you gave albeit with some reservations(education is my main concern) and while it's admirable that they're doing what they're doing(I'm a KPK voter so I have had the opportunity to witness some of the good stuff first hand) but again, what concerns me is the not so bright side of PTI which overshadows, in my opinion, whatever good they have done or may do in the future. My greatest fear with a potential PTI government is a repeat of the Zia era albeit with a democratic flavor i.e. Modi with Pakistani characteristics. That's something I'm extremely vary of, to the point where I would reluctantly chose a corrupt system over one where honest extremists are in power.

What is your idea of self correction?
 
That's the impression he gives but who knows what goes on behind closed doors. Besides, it may not even be him since they didn't actually say who it was. Either way, this was a masterclass in shooting yourself in the foot by PML-N and the sheer level of stupidity on display here wouldn't be out of place in a Road Runner episode.

To be honest I dont see it as an act of stupidity but the typical brand of Machiavellian politics that pml-n is known for. It is the cat and mouse game they always play with the establishment. This seems like a deliberate act in response to the to the real or perceived conspiracies that they feel are being hatched against them.
 
PM condemns ‘outrageous’ news report claiming he has a say in running the country

ISLAMABAD: Moments after putting the responsible jihadist on the Exit Control List (ECL), the Prime Minister House issued its fourth condemnation for the act of terror committed on Dawn newspaper’s front page.

Dubbing the news report an "outrageous fabrication," PM Nawaz Sharif said that any suggestions that he has anything to do with governing Pakistan is against the country’s greater interests and could compromise national security.

“The suggestion that I, the Prime Minister of Pakistan, could actually have an opinion on security matters is a figment of fiction,” the PM House’s statement reads. “But to claim that I can actually have a say – let alone a decision making input – is simply outrageous.”

The statement further highlights aspects of the news report, which has now been unanimously accepted as a terrorist attack, that compromise national security.

“While the fabrication and the fiction is regrettable, the gory fantasy is downright dangerous,” the statement adds. “That anyone – let alone government officials – can disagree with the military leadership and have the audacity to tell them what to do, is a direct attack on Pakistan’s sovereignty.”

The statement claims that the culprits responsible will be punished according to the terms and conditions laid out in the National Action Plan (NAP) and the precedents set by Operation Zarb-e-Azb.

The PM has categorically told the free and fair media to watch what it says, and any further allegations accusing the elected leaders of being a part of policymaking – especially in the realms of security and diplomacy – would be dealt with an iron fist.

https://khabaristantimes.com/nation...claiming-he-has-a-say-in-running-the-country/
 
What is your idea of self correction?
Institutions in democratic states generally improve with the passage of time all other factors being equal.

To be honest I dont see it as an act of stupidity but the typical brand of Machiavellian politics that pml-n is known for. It is the cat and mouse game they always play with the establishment. This seems like a deliberate act in response to the to the real or perceived conspiracies that they feel are being hatched against them.

This was an act of spectacular stupidity. The original news report that started this whole chain of events actually favored PML-N and gave them one over the army. When the report was published, it put the army on the back foot and gave PML-N much needed breathing space while the army went on one of its trademark witch hunts to find the source of the leak. What further went in PML-N's favor was that for once they were actually in the right, a rare enough occurrence in itself, and the confrontation referenced in the report was about an actual recent event where army put a stop to a government led counter terrorism operation. Had they not panicked once the report was published and instead of going all guns blazing for the journalist(one with an impeccable reputation no less) who had basically done them a favor by writing that story, they'd have seen a significant improvement in their reputation worldwide and their position vis-a-vis the army would have strengthened too albeit marginally. What happened instead was that they ended up looking like clueless idiots by putting the journo on ECL and then releasing about a dozen different statements that contradicted each other and indicated a serious lack of coordination within the party. They got pilloried by the international media(and respected outlets at that, not rags like the daily mail or times of india) and the army is still baying for blood so they turned a win into many losses.
 
Institutions in democratic states generally improve with the passage of time all other factors being equal.

What examples you would quote for it? I think struggle and protests are part of system.

Is democracy casting of votes only? I see in China, Russia, Nazi Germany, and Iran people quite satisfied with their rulers and their political set up.
 
What examples you would quote for it? I think struggle and protests are part of system.

Is democracy casting of votes only? I see in China, Russia, Nazi Germany, and Iran people quite satisfied with their rulers and their political set up.

India for one. They have had democracy consistently for 70 years bar that unfortunate period of emergency rule under Indira and their institutions are far stronger than ours today despite them being just as corrupt. Brazil is another country where democratic institutions have grown tremendously over the last two decades of consistent democratic rule despite Brazil being one of the most corrupt nations on the face of the earth. A sitting president's impeachment is something that was unthinkable as recently as 10-15 years ago.

If you think the people of China, Russia, Nazi Germany and Iran are/were satisfied, you are clearly seeing only the official picture and absolutely nothing beneath the surface. Iran in particular has a huge dissident population that opposes the mullahs and demands a democratic government. Nazi Germany rose on the back of public discontent so their very foundation was anger and dissatisfaction while China and Russia continue to kill dissidents and stifle some of the most basic freedoms of their people.
 
India for one. They have had democracy consistently for 70 years bar that unfortunate period of emergency rule under Indira and their institutions are far stronger than ours today despite them being just as corrupt. Brazil is another country where democratic institutions have grown tremendously over the last two decades of consistent democratic rule despite Brazil being one of the most corrupt nations on the face of the earth. A sitting president's impeachment is something that was unthinkable as recently as 10-15 years ago.

If you think the people of China, Russia, Nazi Germany and Iran are/were satisfied, you are clearly seeing only the official picture and absolutely nothing beneath the surface. Iran in particular has a huge dissident population that opposes the mullahs and demands a democratic government. Nazi Germany rose on the back of public discontent so their very foundation was anger and dissatisfaction while China and Russia continue to kill dissidents and stifle some of the most basic freedoms of their people.

What is the improvement in system? Does the fact that those systems have lasted few decades mean that they have produced noticeable improvements within systems? If it is still as corrupt as us then in which areas you see noticeable improvement?

Majority of people in Germany did not mind Hitler similar is the case in Iran, China etc....People at those people actually don't believe in freedoms in which the western people believe. May be I am wrong but more people in Russia approve of Putin and his administration than the percentage of support Obama or Rousseff enjoy.
 
What is the improvement in system? Does the fact that those systems have lasted few decades mean that they have produced noticeable improvements within systems? If it is still as corrupt as us then in which areas you see noticeable improvement?

Yes, the fact that they have had time to evolve organically does mean that they have produced notable solutions. Brazil recently impeached their president for corruption. Can Pakistan do that? You can't rig elections in either country. That continues to happen here to this day. The military in Pakistan controls our foreign policy and large chunks of our domestic policy *cough* non state actors *cough*. The military in either one of India or Brazil trying to interfere in policy matters that are the governments domain is a non starter today despite Brazil being a dictatorship until not too long ago(in relative terms).

Majority of people in Germany did not mind Hitler similar is the case in Iran, China etc....People at those people actually don't believe in freedoms in which the western people believe. May be I am wrong but more people in Russia approve of Putin and his administration than the percentage of support Obama or Rousseff enjoy.
You can't make a statement like 'majority of people xyz' without any evidence and given that all of the countries you listed are extremely authoritarian dictatorships(China, Nazis), dicatatorships masquerading as democracies(Russia) or straight up theocracies(Iran), I doubt you can back that claim with any meaningful factual evidence. Lets start with Iran because it's the easiest. Iran, unlike China and Russia, doesn't try nearly as hard to prevent news of dissent against the government making its way outside their borders which means that it's no secret that a large part of Iran's public resents their government and it's policies deeply. Iranian women in particular bear the brunt of the government's oppression and it's not surprising that that's where the strongest reactions come from. China is an information black hole that completely censors even the slightest hint of dissent and given what they did in Tienanmen, I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to openly protest against the governments. That said, China's treatment of those who oppose their governments is still well known even if known cases only represent a small fraction of the actual goings on because of strict information control. Russia is similar in this regard and Putin's approval ratings can't be compared to Dilmah or Obama since Russia is another country that controls their media and the flow of information, not to mention killing opposition politicians and jailing dissidents, compared to the US and Brazil where the media is independent.

The claim that people in these countries don't believe in freedoms is one you cannot possibly justify. First, you have no factual basis for that, it's a claim borne out of a superficial understanding of these countries. Second, if it were so, we wouldn't have Iranians protesting the lack of basic personal freedoms and freedom from religion or Chinese demanding free speech. Basic human rights are called 'basic' for a reason and while government's like China may do a great job of papering over the cracks and telling the outside world how harmonious their society is, they can't really shut the flow of information down completely and it doesn't paint a great picture. China has been in a diplomatic standoff with Norway for a while now. Do you know why?
 
Yes, the fact that they have had time to evolve organically does mean that they have produced notable solutions. Brazil recently impeached their president for corruption. Can Pakistan do that? You can't rig elections in either country. That continues to happen here to this day. The military in Pakistan controls our foreign policy and large chunks of our domestic policy *cough* non state actors *cough*. The military in either one of India or Brazil trying to interfere in policy matters that are the governments domain is a non starter today despite Brazil being a dictatorship until not too long ago(in relative terms).

So, Rousseff's impeachment is democracy at its zenith but when PTI protests and talks about correcting the system it is out of system and a threat to system as you claimed by disagreeing with Asad Umar's statement that systems don't correct themselves.
So, Brazil's democracy can evolve within years after dictatorship. Does this proves your viewpoint that a system needs decades to self correct?


You can't make a statement like 'majority of people xyz' without any evidence and given that all of the countries you listed are extremely authoritarian dictatorships(China, Nazis), dicatatorships masquerading as democracies(Russia) or straight up theocracies(Iran), I doubt you can back that claim with any meaningful factual evidence. Lets start with Iran because it's the easiest. Iran, unlike China and Russia, doesn't try nearly as hard to prevent news of dissent against the government making its way outside their borders which means that it's no secret that a large part of Iran's public resents their government and it's policies deeply. Iranian women in particular bear the brunt of the government's oppression and it's not surprising that that's where the strongest reactions come from. China is an information black hole that completely censors even the slightest hint of dissent and given what they did in Tienanmen, I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to openly protest against the governments. That said, China's treatment of those who oppose their governments is still well known even if known cases only represent a small fraction of the actual goings on because of strict information control. Russia is similar in this regard and Putin's approval ratings can't be compared to Dilmah or Obama since Russia is another country that controls their media and the flow of information, not to mention killing opposition politicians and jailing dissidents, compared to the US and Brazil where the media is independent.

The claim that people in these countries don't believe in freedoms is one you cannot possibly justify. First, you have no factual basis for that, it's a claim borne out of a superficial understanding of these countries. Second, if it were so, we wouldn't have Iranians protesting the lack of basic personal freedoms and freedom from religion or Chinese demanding free speech. Basic human rights are called 'basic' for a reason and while government's like China may do a great job of papering over the cracks and telling the outside world how harmonious their society is, they can't really shut the flow of information down completely and it doesn't paint a great picture. China has been in a diplomatic standoff with Norway for a while now. Do you know why?

I did not say that those governments don't face opposition. I never said every one is happy with their regimes but a vast majority is. In Turkey, liberals such as you disapprove of Erdogan but he is still loved by so many Turkish people as vindicated by past elections.

Do you believe majority in Russia and China is anti-regime?

How do you see the future of democracy with indicators like ever declining voter turn out in USA. The rise of far right in many European countries?
 
Furthermore, i don't believe army should be blamed as much as it is blamed by some. Politicians leave the void which is filled by army. Talking about foreign policy why can't the government use parliament as its strength like it used during Dharna days? The fact is that well-being of democracy, country or its people lies way down in their priority list.
 
So, Rousseff's impeachment is democracy at its zenith but when PTI protests and talks about correcting the system it is out of system and a threat to system as you claimed by disagreeing with Asad Umar's statement that systems don't correct themselves.
So, Brazil's democracy can evolve within years after dictatorship. Does this proves your viewpoint that a system needs decades to self correct?

It's not democracy at it's zenith, that would be countries like Sweden and Germany, it's the outcome of a democracy growing organically over an extended period(31 years in this case) and the institutional development that entails. Pakistan's democracy, by comparison, is only 8 years old. There's a big difference between what happened in Brazil and what's happening here. Dilmah's impeachment went through the proper channels and was handled by their Congress and judiciary, not by dharnas with opposition leaders shouting 'oay nooray' at Dilmah. It took 31 years of uninterrupted democratic rule for Brazil to get to the point where they could impeach a corrupt president so yes, my point that it takes decades to build a viable democracy still stands.


I did not say that those governments don't face opposition. I never said every one is happy with their regimes but a vast majority is. In Turkey, liberals such as you disapprove of Erdogan but he is still loved by so many Turkish people as vindicated by past elections.

Do you believe majority in Russia and China is anti-regime?

How do you see the future of democracy with indicators like ever declining voter turn out in USA. The rise of far right in many European countries?
The concept of 'majority' is meaningless in this context, particularly when murder is one of the state's tools for dealing with dissent. A majority of Britons voted for Brexit, making the remainers a minority but that majority constituted just 52% of voters i.e 48%, or just about half the voters, will simply not be taken into account when the country finally leaves the EU. Besides, given how secretive and authoritarian the Chinese and Russian states are, there's no way for you to know whether or not the 'vast majority' supports the government or not so that's simply an uninformed assumption based on appearances, and superficial ones at that. These aren't normal societies where dissent manifests itself in the form of mass social unrest, these are states with no notion of human rights and the state pounces at the first sign of dissent with all its might. That news of dissatisfaction continues to make its way to the outside world despite strict controls on the flow of information and swift action against any dissent is indicative that there are large chunks of the public who aren't very fond of their governments.

Voter turnout in the US has been low for decades except during presidential elections, that's hardly a sign of a declining democracy. They have their own challenges but they have robust enough safeguards in place to ensure that their democracy will never be threatened. Europe is a different story. Decades of discontent, fueled by economic decline and resulting unemployment, a rise in anti-Islam sentiment in recent years just off the back of massive levels of immigration from the Muslim world in the last five decades and the absence of something like the US bill of rights has resulted in the rise of the populist far right(incidentally, PTI is also a populist far right party in many ways so there's a parallel to be drawn here) that has been having it's way with European society but ultimately, even at their strongest, the strongest far right parties are polling 15-20% in the worst affected countries like France and the inability of parties like UKIP to make significant electoral gains is encouraging. This is even less significant in countries like southern europe where the far right is even further on the fringes of society and even more irrelevant from an electoral PoV. Simply put, there's no comparison. They have mature democracies with the wherewithal to survive a far right resurgence. Pakistan does not. France and Germany's democracy can survive FN and AfD, Pakistan will not survive PTI.
 
It's not democracy at it's zenith, that would be countries like Sweden and Germany, it's the outcome of a democracy growing organically over an extended period(31 years in this case) and the institutional development that entails. Pakistan's democracy, by comparison, is only 8 years old. There's a big difference between what happened in Brazil and what's happening here. Dilmah's impeachment went through the proper channels and was handled by their Congress and judiciary, not by dharnas with opposition leaders shouting 'oay nooray' at Dilmah. It took 31 years of uninterrupted democratic rule for Brazil to get to the point where they could impeach a corrupt president so yes, my point that it takes decades to build a viable democracy still stands.



The concept of 'majority' is meaningless in this context, particularly when murder is one of the state's tools for dealing with dissent. A majority of Britons voted for Brexit, making the remainers a minority but that majority constituted just 52% of voters i.e 48%, or just about half the voters, will simply not be taken into account when the country finally leaves the EU. Besides, given how secretive and authoritarian the Chinese and Russian states are, there's no way for you to know whether or not the 'vast majority' supports the government or not so that's simply an uninformed assumption based on appearances, and superficial ones at that. These aren't normal societies where dissent manifests itself in the form of mass social unrest, these are states with no notion of human rights and the state pounces at the first sign of dissent with all its might. That news of dissatisfaction continues to make its way to the outside world despite strict controls on the flow of information and swift action against any dissent is indicative that there are large chunks of the public who aren't very fond of their governments.

Voter turnout in the US has been low for decades except during presidential elections, that's hardly a sign of a declining democracy. They have their own challenges but they have robust enough safeguards in place to ensure that their democracy will never be threatened. Europe is a different story. Decades of discontent, fueled by economic decline and resulting unemployment, a rise in anti-Islam sentiment in recent years just off the back of massive levels of immigration from the Muslim world in the last five decades and the absence of something like the US bill of rights has resulted in the rise of the populist far right(incidentally, PTI is also a populist far right party in many ways so there's a parallel to be drawn here) that has been having it's way with European society but ultimately, even at their strongest, the strongest far right parties are polling 15-20% in the worst affected countries like France and the inability of parties like UKIP to make significant electoral gains is encouraging. This is even less significant in countries like southern europe where the far right is even further on the fringes of society and even more irrelevant from an electoral PoV. Simply put, there's no comparison. They have mature democracies with the wherewithal to survive a far right resurgence. Pakistan does not. France and Germany's democracy can survive FN and AfD, Pakistan will not survive PTI.

So, Dharna/protest is out of the system when PTI is itself part of the system? Do protests for accountability and transparency harm the capacity of the system to improve itself?. As i said earlier acceptance and legitimization of corruption is a different thing than prevalence of it.
The so called self correction system still needs an agency. I think demand of PM's accountability in no way works counter to this objective.
31 years is reasonable time period IMO. But the problem here is that you have to move inch by inch to reach there in 20 -30 years but in these 8 years we have not moved an inch. In fact, PPP's reign was more democratic in essence as they gave importance to parliament.
Kindly also share your opinion about relative quick turnarounds in South Korea, Malaysia.



Chinese,Russians are not a group of illiterate billion and half.They have education and finances. Don't you think that if a considerable proportion of their population decides to change the system they would be quite visible?

Has the buck stopped here and the rise of far right has stopped?

Last but not the least, share your reasons that put PTI in far right segment?
 
So, Dharna/protest is out of the system when PTI is itself part of the system? Do protests for accountability and transparency harm the capacity of the system to improve itself?. As i said earlier acceptance and legitimization of corruption is a different thing than prevalence of it.
By all means protest but you and I both know it's not the simple act of protesting that bothers me, don't we? PTI has a constitutional right to protest and I actually support their stance that NS should present himself for accountability. IK's dharnas, however, are more than just protests against corruption. My biggest gripe there is the involvement of the one party I absolutely don't want anywhere near our politics, the khakis. While the behind the scenes workings of our political machinery are mired in secrecy, there was enough evidence during the last dharna to suggest army involvement and I absolutely do oppose the khakis interfering with politics no matter how noble their cause. Earlier some people were objecting to me calling PTI an establishment party and this is what I was referring to. The PTV siege(reports of ISI operatives guiding dharna participants through PTV's labyrinthine building that I still can't navigate despite being there a dozen or so times), IK leaving midway through the dharna to meet Raheel Sharif, Tahir ul Qadri calling for the army to take the government down and a PTI insider who I actually have a great deal of respect for leaving the party over concerns, public ones at that, that the army was involved. Besides, the plan IK has presented for the protest is thoroughly undemocratic. The first phase apparently involves shutting down major roads in Islamabad and while I'm all for his right to protest, what I'm not for is him shutting my city down and bringing life to a grinding halt. Protest in front of parliament if he wants but a shutdown is unacceptable. What's even more unacceptable is khaki involvement.

The so called self correction system still needs an agency. I think demand of PM's accountability in no way works counter to this objective.
And what agency is that, pray tell? I was under the impression that the agency in question is usually the public but clearly you have different ideas. What was the agency for change, for instance, in Brazil or Korea? Did anyone shut down Brasilia or Seoul?

31 years is reasonable time period IMO. But the problem here is that you have to move inch by inch to reach there in 20 -30 years but in these 8 years we have not moved an inch. In fact, PPP's reign was more democratic in essence as they gave importance to parliament.
That, right there, is the problem. You, much like the rest of our public, want quick results but want to skip the process that leads to them. Eight years is no time to make a judgement of this sort. Given the disparity between Pakistan and Brazil's economic fortunes, even after 31 years our democracy will not be as robust as their's is now.

Kindly also share your opinion about relative quick turnarounds in South Korea, Malaysia.
Korea is not a good example here because they adopted democracy once they were already a borderline developed country. I keep repeating myself over and over about economic development and policy and Korea is a shining example of the central role the economy plays in determining the quality of your institutions and levels of corruption. Korea's democracy got off to a quick start because in a relatively wealthy country, the people are more empowered to begin with and have greater recourse to means of holding their representatives to account. Malaysia is a country I haven't studied in as much detail as Korea or Brazil but their ongoing 1MDB scandal is very Pakistani in nature in that a sitting PM brazenly steals a cool billion dollars from a state institution and upon being asked to present himself for accountability, starts cracking down on opposition while getting in bed with Islamist parties and the Saudi government to bolster his domestic position so Malaysia isn't the best example to use here.


Chinese,Russians are not a group of illiterate billion and half.They have education and finances. Don't you think that if a considerable proportion of their population decides to change the system they would be quite visible?
They wouldn't because, as I said, both states are notorious for controlling the flow of information to and from the outside world, strict control on both the domestic media and even the internet in China's case, and the use of brutal policies to suppress dissent which forces a lot of it underground. It's anyone's guess just how big a chunk of their population isn't satisfied with what's been going on but signs of dissent in Russia have been obvious for the last half decade or so and China will see a rise in such activities too now that the government will have a harder time upholding their covenant with the people of the government ensuring the economy thrives and the people, in return, hand over some of their basic human rights.


Last but not the least, share your reasons that put PTI in far right segment?
Their policy vis-a-vis religious parties, terrorist organizations and religion's role in the education system put them in the same league as JI in my book and JI is the poster child for the Pakistani far right.
 
By all means protest but you and I both know it's not the simple act of protesting that bothers me, don't we? PTI has a constitutional right to protest and I actually support their stance that NS should present himself for accountability. IK's dharnas, however, are more than just protests against corruption. My biggest gripe there is the involvement of the one party I absolutely don't want anywhere near our politics, the khakis. While the behind the scenes workings of our political machinery are mired in secrecy, there was enough evidence during the last dharna to suggest army involvement and I absolutely do oppose the khakis interfering with politics no matter how noble their cause. Earlier some people were objecting to me calling PTI an establishment party and this is what I was referring to. The PTV siege(reports of ISI operatives guiding dharna participants through PTV's labyrinthine building that I still can't navigate despite being there a dozen or so times), IK leaving midway through the dharna to meet Raheel Sharif, Tahir ul Qadri calling for the army to take the government down and a PTI insider who I actually have a great deal of respect for leaving the party over concerns, public ones at that, that the army was involved. Besides, the plan IK has presented for the protest is thoroughly undemocratic. The first phase apparently involves shutting down major roads in Islamabad and while I'm all for his right to protest, what I'm not for is him shutting my city down and bringing life to a grinding halt. Protest in front of parliament if he wants but a shutdown is unacceptable. What's even more unacceptable is khaki involvement.

Some of the criticism is pretty unfair. It was Nawaz who asked the chief to intervene. Dharna did not happen overnight, many small protests and gatherings did not move the democratic govt an inch as is the case now with Panama leaks. All the usual suspects in JUI, PPP, N league etc are in collusion here. All is speculation except the fact that Shuja Pasha's role as adviser to Khan.
No one had asked the democratic government to fire bullets in Lahore and kill their own people for no apparent reason.
Similarly here PTI has tried many ways to make the PM accountable inside parliament but all to no effect.

And what agency is that, pray tell? I was under the impression that the agency in question is usually the public but clearly you have different ideas. What was the agency for change, for instance, in Brazil or Korea? Did anyone shut down Brasilia or Seoul?


problem. You, much like the rest of our public, want quick results but want to skip the process that leads to them. Eight years is no time to make a judgement of this sort. Given the disparity between Pakistan and Brazil's economic fortunes, even after 31 years our democracy will not be as robust as their's is now.

Certainly people. Don't you count PTI as people? Here in Pakistan the situation is different as N league has corrupted the very roots of this system. There are no institutional check and balances. They can get away with anything including murder. There is hardly anything democratic in this regime. I would even say that 8 years of democracy that we are talking about are still a continuation of dictatorship only the characters have changed.

Korea is not a good example here because they adopted democracy once they were already a borderline developed country. I keep repeating myself over and over about economic development and policy and Korea is a shining example of the central role the economy plays in determining the quality of your institutions and levels of corruption. Korea's democracy got off to a quick start because in a relatively wealthy country, the people are more empowered to begin with and have greater recourse to means of holding their representatives to account. Malaysia is a country I haven't studied in as much detail as Korea or Brazil but their ongoing 1MDB scandal is very Pakistani in nature in that a sitting PM brazenly steals a cool billion dollars from a state institution and upon being asked to present himself for accountability, starts cracking down on opposition while getting in bed with Islamist parties and the Saudi government to bolster his domestic position so Malaysia isn't the best example to use here.

Korea is also a set of homogeneous people where as in Pakistan there is a vast difference of culture and ethnicity.
Are you saying that a viable democracy is not possible without reasonable economy and literacy? Exceptions are every where so just don't give one example of India.

They wouldn't because, as I said, both states are notorious for controlling the flow of information to and from the outside world, strict control on both the domestic media and even the internet in China's case, and the use of brutal policies to suppress dissent which forces a lot of it underground. It's anyone's guess just how big a chunk of their population isn't satisfied with what's been going on but signs of dissent in Russia have been obvious for the last half decade or so and China will see a rise in such activities too now that the government will have a harder time upholding their covenant with the people of the government ensuring the economy thrives and the people, in return, hand over some of their basic human rights.

Fine, it is your opinion.


Their policy vis-a-vis religious parties, terrorist organizations and religion's role in the education system put them in the same league as JI in my book and JI is the poster child for the Pakistani far right.

Just heard a news today that JUI in KPK assembly protested against upcoming changes in curriculum. There is also revival of cultural and art festivities like music in KPK as i note that a lot of activities are being held there.
Just yesterday Pervaiz Rashid claimed in a public rally that PTI's govt exists only because of their largesse. You undermine Maulana sahib. It is just that N league never wanted to be part of government in difficult region of KPK.
Some also blame PTI for promoting vulgarity in their public meetings.
Again, i think that only for your standards they can be considered far right.
 
Delaying tactics. Leaked it so that another inquiry takes place for another year.:ronaldo


Araein has saved a Butt beautifully. 2013 engineering could be substantiated aswell.
 
So, have these two gentlemen Rao Tehseen and Tariq Fatmi accepted their bitter fate ? Does it put to rest the whole controversy?
 
Just read the DG ISPR's tweet where he said the Dawn leaks notification is "rejected". This is a massive breach of protocol and heads should roll. This is basically the equivalent of a clerk telling his company's CEO to go to hell. McChrystal was relieved of his duties for a much smaller transgression. Not surprisingly, the 'noora this noora that' brigade who're such sticklers for due process and accountability are either MIA or justifying this and people have the gall to demand rule of law. What a joke, these people deserve leaders like Zardari and NS.
 
Just read the DG ISPR's tweet where he said the Dawn leaks notification is "rejected". This is a massive breach of protocol and heads should roll. This is basically the equivalent of a clerk telling his company's CEO to go to hell. McChrystal was relieved of his duties for a much smaller transgression. Not surprisingly, the 'noora this noora that' brigade who're such sticklers for due process and accountability are either MIA or justifying this and people have the gall to demand rule of law. What a joke, these people deserve leaders like Zardari and NS.

Whatever DG ISPR tweets that is not his personal opinion but the policy decision of the army so your analysis of clerk telling the CEO to buzz off is woefully incorrect.

The offense committed can be tried in a military court under the Army Act. However, that did not happen. The army let the bloody civilians handle the matter and follow due process, however, as usual the civvies saved their favourites and sacrificed small bakras.
 
Whatever DG ISPR tweets that is not his personal opinion but the policy decision of the army so your analysis of clerk telling the CEO to buzz off is woefully incorrect.

The offense committed can be tried in a military court under the Army Act. However, that did not happen. The army let the bloody civilians handle the matter and follow due process, however, as usual the civvies saved their favourites and sacrificed small bakras.

Oh wow, really? And here I was thinking that the ISPR Twitter representes the DG's personal opinions. Army is subordinate to the government and them "rejecting" the notification is the breach of protocol I was referring to so the clerk(army) and CEO(government) analogy stands.

The army has no legal authority to "let" the "bloody civillians" do anything as they're answerable to said bloody civillians. They didn't do anyone a favor by creating an illusion of due process only to get back to business when they didn't like the outcome and throw all pretensions of rule of law aside by asserting their power where they have none legally. That said, not at all surprised to see the usual suspect who cry, moan and complain about rule of law showing their hypocrisy by defending the Army's breach of protocol and slap to the face of our constitution because the own the damn country and can do as they please.
 
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Oh wow, really? And here I was thinking that the ISPR Twitter representes the DG's personal opinions. Army is subordinate to the government and them "rejecting" the notification is the breach of protocol I was referring to so the clerk(army) and CEO(government) analogy stands.

The army has no legal authority to "let" the "bloody civillians" do anything as they're answerable to said bloody civillians. They didn't do anyone a favor by creating an illusion of due process only to get back to business when they didn't like the outcome and throw all pretensions of rule of law aside by asserting their power where they have none legally. That said, not at all surprised to see the usual suspect who cry, moan and complain about rule of law showing their hypocrisy by defending the Army's breach of protocol and slap to the face of our constitution because the own the damn country and can do as they please.

When the people trying to enforce 'protocol' are NS and Zardari then I'm all for breach of protocol. These monsters are eating the country inside out and you are worried about protocol. Give me a break.
 
When the people trying to enforce 'protocol' are NS and Zardari then I'm all for breach of protocol. These monsters are eating the country inside out and you are worried about protocol. Give me a break.

So rule of law only applies when it's convenient? The law is the law, you don't pick and choose when to follow it based on who's in charge and anyway, if it's about who the bigger monster is, the likes of N League and PPP are minnows compared to the army in terms of damage done to the country.
 
So rule of law only applies when it's convenient? The law is the law, you don't pick and choose when to follow it based on who's in charge and anyway, if it's about who the bigger monster is, the likes of N League and PPP are minnows compared to the army in terms of damage done to the country.

If the law was applied in due spirit then Maryam Nawaz would not have been let of the hook. This is not following protocol where you save your own and pin blame on scapegoats.

I'm glad the Army rejected this useless decision by the PM house which did not even follow the recommendations of the Inquiry Board which they themselves constituted.

Well done Pak Fauj, the haters can keep burning.

:salute
 
If the law was applied in due spirit then Maryam Nawaz would not have been let of the hook. This is not following protocol where you save your own and pin blame on scapegoats.
The difference is that no one's trying to justify PML-N's actions, they're rightly being called out on it. In the Army's case, the same people who keep demanding rule of law are making excuses for the khakis, exposing themselves for the hypocrites they are.

I'm glad the Army rejected this useless decision by the PM house which did not even follow the recommendations of the Inquiry Board which they themselves constituted.
So am I. Proves my point about the civvies just being figureheads while the khakis hold all the cards. Also proves my other point about the sarkari types being hypocrites because you only demanding due process for those you don't like while making excuses for those you do.
 
When the people trying to enforce 'protocol' are NS and Zardari then I'm all for breach of protocol. These monsters are eating the country inside out and you are worried about protocol. Give me a break.


Don't you think somebody is playing dirty double games with Pakistan ?

In Media they leak even call data of Shehzadi e Aala of Saltannat. Even personal numbers of politicians and bureaucrats along with tiny little details of who called whom via sim or through apps etc etc. Should this be leaked to journos and than on media ?


And than since to them Corrupt and people with no financial credibility suit them actually so what they do ? They get along with other members of Deak Leaks inquiry team and become part of Grand Consensus that two three scapegoats like Fatmi & Fawad etc are the order of the day while give a clean chit to main orchestrator the Holy Cow Shehzadi e Saltannat daughter of the Land.


What is this All ? ?


Will these institutes do the same in JIT of Panama aswell ? Where they will feed Hawaldaar journos all the truth to tell the national about money laumdering while in inquiry team give clean chit to the innocent King, his childrens and affiliates ?


What is this ? Making Sadaa lou Awaam will low IQ EQ Bewaqoof ?
 
When the people trying to enforce 'protocol' are NS and Zardari then I'm all for breach of protocol. These monsters are eating the country inside out and you are worried about protocol. Give me a break.

Don't you think somebody is playing dirty double games with Pakistan ?

In Media they leak even call data of Shehzadi e Aala of Saltannat. Even personal numbers of politicians and bureaucrats along with tiny little details of who called whom via sim or through apps etc etc. Should this be leaked to journos and than on media ?


And than since to them Corrupt and people with no financial credibility suit them actually so what they do ? They get along with other members of Deak Leaks inquiry team and become part of Grand Consensus that two three scapegoats like Fatmi & Fawad etc are the order of the day while give a clean chit to main orchestrator the Holy Cow Shehzadi e Saltannat daughter of the Land.


What is this All ? ?


Will these institutes do the same in JIT of Panama aswell ? Where they will feed Hawaldaar journos all the truth to tell the national about money laumdering while in inquiry team give clean chit to the innocent King, his childrens and affiliates ?


What is this ? Making Sadaa lou Awaam will low IQ EQ Bewaqoof ?



Syed bhaee please watch General Amjad spilling the truth today.

Told you.

Watch his video. He has said that ISI has the names with evidence of real culprits but they made compromise with Gov. This is what I said. Through 10, 12 hawaaldaar journos they spread secret truths in media and defame culprits while on the other hand they make compromises and deals where it really matters.

[MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]
 
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Syed bhaee please watch General Amjad spilling the truth today.

Told you.

Watch his video. He has said that ISI has the names with evidence of real culprits but they made compromise with Gov. This is what I said. Through 10, 12 hawaaldaar journos they spread secret truths in media and defame culprits while on the other hand they make compromises and deals where it really matters.

[MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Got family in the army (including ISI and MI) so it's not really news. They have enough evidence to bury him and his next seven generations but the fact that they sat on that evidence during the Supreme Court case should be make it clear what their priorities are.
 
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The notion about army protecting Sharifs seems true. Even their mouthpiece Shahid Masood looks desperate since the Panama verdict.
 
Got family in the army (including ISI and MI) so it's not really news. They have enough evidence to bury him and his next seven generations but the fact that they sat on that evidence during the Supreme Court case should be make it clear what their priorities are.


If I am Asma Jahangir I will fear for my Life seriously.

[UTUBE]HIcwvU0GPKU[/UTUBE]
 
If I am Asma Jahangir I will fear for my Life seriously.

[UTUBE]HIcwvU0GPKU[/UTUBE]

Meh, people like her live in constant fear of their lives but mad respect to her for not letting that scare her into silence, especially in light of the khakis' tendency to abduct-torture-murder their critics a'la Saleem Shehzad, the missing journos from Lahore (something Shehzad) and, more recently, the liberal activists. This nation doesn't deserve a legend like her. It's just a theory with no evidence but I'm personally convinced they killed Sabeen Mahmood too and found a convenient scapegoat in Saad Aziz because if you're guilty of one thing, it's not hard to pin something else on you since people already think you're a monster.
 
Meh, people like her live in constant fear of their lives but mad respect to her for not letting that scare her into silence, especially in light of the khakis' tendency to abduct-torture-murder their critics a'la Saleem Shehzad, the missing journos from Lahore (something Shehzad) and, more recently, the liberal activists. This nation doesn't deserve a legend like her. It's just a theory with no evidence but I'm personally convinced they killed Sabeen Mahmood too and found a convenient scapegoat in Saad Aziz because if you're guilty of one thing, it's not hard to pin something else on you since people already think you're a monster.


Indeed the lady is very brave but unfortunately majority pakistan abuses her like anything.

Saleem's burden waz a very sad thing and I agree with you.


A pro democracy page was successfully closed and activists humiliated by giving the whole thing a blasphemy angle. Now those fellows can never return to Pak because Mullah's will eat them live on blasphemy charges.
 
Indeed the lady is very brave but unfortunately majority pakistan abuses her like anything.

Saleem's burden waz a very sad thing and I agree with you.


A pro democracy page was successfully closed and activists humiliated by giving the whole thing a blasphemy angle. Now those fellows can never return to Pak because Mullah's will eat them live on blasphemy charges.

Again, meh.. people of Pakistan are getting what they want so all I can say is enjoy. We'll see how well it works out for them.

PS. The missing Lahori journo's name is Zeenat Shehzadi, not Shehzad. Stupid autocorrect keeps messing up all my posts.
 
Again, meh.. people of Pakistan are getting what they want so all I can say is enjoy. We'll see how well it works out for them.

PS. The missing Lahori journo's name is Zeenat Shehzadi, not Shehzad. Stupid autocorrect keeps messing up all my posts.


Yes I know about her and I side with you on this too.
 
Thoroughly well deserved. Congratulations Cyril.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The IPI names Pakistan's Cyril Almeida <a href="https://twitter.com/cyalm?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cyalm</a> as its 2019 World Press Freedom Hero. A thoroughly deserved prize, for a journalist who has faced treason charges and extraordinary intimidation for doing his job. It could not go to a finer journalist. <a href="https://t.co/i7y6cLwmp3">https://t.co/i7y6cLwmp3</a></p>— Asad Hashim (@AsadHashim) <a href="https://twitter.com/AsadHashim/status/1120954721857097728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 24, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Thoroughly well deserved. Congratulations Cyril.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The IPI names Pakistan's Cyril Almeida <a href="https://twitter.com/cyalm?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cyalm</a> as its 2019 World Press Freedom Hero. A thoroughly deserved prize, for a journalist who has faced treason charges and extraordinary intimidation for doing his job. It could not go to a finer journalist. <a href="https://t.co/i7y6cLwmp3">https://t.co/i7y6cLwmp3</a></p>— Asad Hashim (@AsadHashim) <a href="https://twitter.com/AsadHashim/status/1120954721857097728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 24, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Is this the same organisation that gave the Chimp Munshi Dar a prize for bankrupting PK?
 
Looks like he's given up on writing (for now).

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some more work news, belatedly: I have resigned from Dawn and ended the Sunday column. Am deeply grateful for the readership and affection over the years. There is no plan to return to writing in the foreseeable future, a break from the media appears to be on the cards. &#55357;&#56911;</p>— cyril almeida (@cyalm) <a href="https://twitter.com/cyalm/status/1185930491091914752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Looks like he's given up on writing (for now).

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some more work news, belatedly: I have resigned from Dawn and ended the Sunday column. Am deeply grateful for the readership and affection over the years. There is no plan to return to writing in the foreseeable future, a break from the media appears to be on the cards. ��</p>— cyril almeida (@cyalm) <a href="https://twitter.com/cyalm/status/1185930491091914752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He had one column, the army are the bad guys and not a word about the corruption of NS and AZ., And each week it was repeated with a few words changed. Dawn never printed any criticism, l know because I replied many times but never had one printed and all seemed to praise him, mostly from across the border.
 
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