Did Australia invent reverse swing?

[Junaids]

Yes, I know the story that Sarfraz Nawaz passed the secret down to Imran Khan.

But I'm watching a documentary on the late, great Max Walker currently. He has been asked about his legendary tour of the West Indies in 1972-73, in which he took 26 wickets.

And he has clearly stated that he took those wickets with reverse swing, taught to him by Allan Connolly, who was a journeyman Aussie quick just before Lillee and Thomson arrived on the scene.....and who was famed for his ability to move the old ball.

Big Maxie has explained how they loaded sweat and spit on one side of the ball.

It all sounds to me as if the Aussies actually invented reverse swing, around 5 years before Sarfraz and Imran started to employ it.

 

[JibranAnsari]

whoever invented it we gave it the name and true extreme it deserved

 

[jeetu]

Neanderthals invented fire but humans were the ones to use it effectively

Fair point, Similarly there are some unsubstancial claims that Mallet or Prasanna could bowl Doosra.
http://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/was-the-doosra-bowled-a-century-before-saqlain-mushtaq-418034

V Ramnarayan writes in his book Third Man that in the nets EAS Prasanna had demonstrated the way of turning the ball the other way, that too with a perfectly straight arm. It was a trick that he did not use in the match because he had not perfected it.

But then, amidst the incredible deification that the Indian spinners of the 1960s and 1970s have been subjected to, one wonders where to draw the line between fact and fancy. Besides, it does not really count if not deployed in match situations.

Similarly, Ashley Mallett claims: “I could ‘bowl’ what they call a doosra today, but when I played, off-spinners did not have ICC carte blanche to throw the ball. I felt it was wrong to throw, so I discarded the whole thing.”

Once again, Mallett’s proclamations need to be taken with a pinch of salt. His writings sprinkle increasing quantities of manufactured gold dust as they describe deeds of spinners he knows or admires. With a confused facility for numbers he makes major blunders in his ‘objective’ assessment of greatness in spinners like Clarrie Grimmett and Prasanna. While that may not be enough evidence to cast a suspicious eye on his remarks about himself, it is probably a good idea to be cautious before taking his word for it. Besides, he too did not bowl it in a real match.

 

[MMHS]

Yes, I know the story that Sarfraz Nawaz passed the secret down to Imran Khan.

But I'm watching a documentary on the late, great Max Walker currently. He has been asked about his legendary tour of the West Indies in 1972-73, in which he took 26 wickets.

And he has clearly stated that he took those wickets with reverse swing, taught to him by Allan Connolly, who was a journeyman Aussie quick just before Lillee and Thomson arrived on the scene.....and who was famed for his ability to move the old ball.

Big Maxie has explained how they loaded sweat and spit on one side of the ball.

It all sounds to me as if the Aussies actually invented reverse swing, around 5 years before Sarfraz and Imran started to employ it.

First proper reverse was bowled by Sarfraz in early 70s. What you are saying is not actually reverse swing - Max Walker wasn't fast enough to produce reverse swing with his high arm action. That sweat & spit tactics was used even in 40s - Ray Lindwall was master of swinging the old ball - conventional swing.

BUT, what you are missing here (not sure deliberately or not - [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] took the bait easily), is that Maxi was swinging the old ball conventionally, something English pacers did also using Vaseline in 1976 IND tour. That lefti seemer (forgot name, probably Peter Lever, took 7/46 at Delhi), swang old ball from 120KM speed.

Reverse swing is the opposite movement of a conventional shiny side, bowled at pace, preferably from a side-on slingy action & pushing it through air for an yorker with unconventional seem position. I am telling this, because I have seen Waquar at prime from 10 metres away as a ball boy at nets. None of that matches with around 6'5" Max Walker - bowling with a high-arm action OF WRONG FOOT, upright seem & bowling at a perfect Aussie length. He might have got conventional swing with old ball - WHICH WAS ALSO an invention then, because, it was 2 physicist in AUS, 1969 first explained why a cricket ball swings with their aero-dynamics theory.

Sometimes, you know why I say that Cricket was an amateur game before 70s....................... those greats won't have been so great in 70s after wards.

 

[Big Mac]

First proper reverse was bowled by Sarfraz in early 70s. What you are saying is not actually reverse swing - Max Walker wasn't fast enough to produce reverse swing with his high arm action. That sweat & spit tactics was used even in 40s - Ray Lindwall was master of swinging the old ball - conventional swing.

The idea that you need to be express pace to bowl reverse is complete nonsense. I've made the ball reverse in the nets and if anyone ever aimed a speed gun in my direction when I bowl 'quick' they'd see I'm probably bowling Moeen Ali pace.

 

[MMHS]

The idea that you need to be express pace to bowl reverse is complete nonsense. I've made the ball reverse in the nets and if anyone ever aimed a speed gun in my direction when I bowl 'quick' they'd see I'm probably bowling Moeen Ali pace.

There is one more qualifier in that line - try to reverse it without slanting your arm side wise.

 

[Big Mac]

There is one more qualifier in that line - try to reverse it without slanting your arm side wise.

When I bowl seam up (I normally bowl leg-spin) I bowl conventional outswing with a nice high arm, the ball was reversing in like a boomerang without me having to change anything.

Like I said, those are all old myths trotted that should have been discarded long ago.

 

[90MPH]

Anyway I have never heard of this theory and in any case even if it was true it doesn't matter as we know it was Sarfraz who really started the revolution, Imran then took it too the next level and Wasim and Waqar really polished off.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

We invented reverse swing, developed the art and perfected it for the whole world to see - basically we're the pioneers. Some 'Indians' and others are just jealous of our bowling prowess.....

 

[Rayyman]

We invented reverse swing, developed the art and perfected it for the whole world to see - basically we're the pioneers. Some 'Indians' and others are just jealous of our bowling prowess.....

Exactly. That's why even to this day, there isn't one Pakistani fast bowler who doesn't know how to do reverse swing.

 

[Mamoon]

As far as what I think of our invention of reverse-swing, I personally don't take great pride in the fact that we introduced a skill that is deemed illegal by the law, and have thus set a wrong, unethical precedence.

 

[Sidilicious]

As far as what I think of our invention of reverse-swing, I personally don't take great pride in the fact that we introduced a skill that is deemed illegal by the law, and have thus set a wrong, unethical precedence.

Its not illegal, if no external substances are used.

I am guessing the dryness of the Pakistani grounds in 70s and the 80s allowed them to reverse the ball initially. Having learnt that, they then might have used external substances to reverse the ball, when the conditions were not in favour of reverse swing. For instance, in England.

 

[Mamoon]

Its not illegal, if no external substances are used.

I am guessing the dryness of the Pakistani grounds in 70s and the 80s allowed them to reverse the ball initially. Having learnt that, they then might have used external substances to reverse the ball, when the conditions were not in favour of reverse swing. For instance, in England.

We used bottle caps, but we deserve credit because our bowlers had the skill to use it better than anyone.

However, it is still illegal at the end of the day.

 

[90MPH]

Its not illegal, if no external substances are used.

I am guessing the dryness of the Pakistani grounds in 70s and the 80s allowed them to reverse the ball initially. Having learnt that, they then might have used external substances to reverse the ball, when the conditions were not in favour of reverse swing. For instance, in England.

Really you have no clue, just like the attention seeking Mamoon.

The reason why the ball reverse swing was happening in England was down to the conditions and the cricket ball. Back in 1992 and 1996 Pakistan were using readers cricket balls which although not great for conventional swing they were perfect for reverse swing because they scuffed up very quickly.
Also some grounds like the Oval were perfect for reverse swing because the outfields were perfect to getting the dry very quickly.
And obously you need the quick pace and the knowledge to make reverse swing effective which the Pak bowlers had.

It's so obvious some of you are extremely insecure and jealous that you have to take away any Pakistani success at anything - this time being cricket.

 

[Jan Sher]

Interesting, may be.

 

[Suleiman]

I have devised a way to reverse swing the ball without using bottle caps, finger nails, teeth, jadu tona and other things.

 

[Sidilicious]

Really you have no clue, just like the attention seeking Mamoon.

The reason why the ball reverse swing was happening in England was down to the conditions and the cricket ball. Back in 1992 and 1996 Pakistan were using readers cricket balls which although not great for conventional swing they were perfect for reverse swing because they scuffed up very quickly.
Also some grounds like the Oval were perfect for reverse swing because the outfields were perfect to getting the dry very quickly.
And obously you need the quick pace and the knowledge to make reverse swing effective which the Pak bowlers had.

It's so obvious some of you are extremely insecure and jealous that you have to take away any Pakistani success at anything - this time being cricket.

You will find that both Mamoon and I were commenting on the fact that IK mentioned using bottle caps to scruff the ball up in County Matches. How did the 92 and 96 tour come into the picture?

Anyways, just because someone might have a point which differs from yours it doesnt mean that they are against your country/attention seeking. It implies your intolerance of others opinions.

If anything I clearly mentioned that the Pakistani bowlers of the 70s/80s must have discovered/invented reverse swing playing on the dry grounds of Pakistan, which means nothing illegal was used initially.

 

[90MPH]

You will find that both Mamoon and I were commenting on the fact that IK mentioned using bottle caps to scruff the ball up in County Matches. How did the 92 and 96 tour come into the picture?

Anyways, just because someone might have a point which differs from yours it doesnt mean that they are against your country/attention seeking. It implies your intolerance of others opinions.

If anything I clearly mentioned that the Pakistani bowlers of the 70s/80s must have discovered/invented reverse swing playing on the dry grounds of Pakistan, which means nothing illegal was used initially.

Imran Khan said he used to a bottle cap once in a county match because I vividly remember him saying so when he was trying to sell his autobiography in the early 90s

Unfortunate the term bottle cap has been used repeatedly against Pakistan Many times, mainly I have to say by Indian fans (my experience) without a shred of evidence that such a scenario occurred. It only comes down to pure jealousy and hatred when that occurs.

In any case I lived through 1992 so it doesn't bother me because I have seen all the hypocrisy and double standards as soon reverse swing became "art" post 2005 Ashes.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], Lord Constantine reckoned that he was reversing it in the 1930s.