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Did British empire made a blunder in 1947 by not balkanizing India further?

sweep_shot

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I feel like British Empire made a mistake in 1947 when they only made Pakistan and India.

What they should've done is make Pakistan, Kashmir, Khalistan, and divide India into 5-10 small countries.

Had they done that, many of the future conflicts could've been prevented. It could've also kept Indians humble like the Sri Lankans or the Nepalese.

Missed opportunity.

Anyway, I still expect India to be balkanized due to domestic problems as well as conflicts with China/Pakistan. Balkanization of India can result in more peace in the subcontinent region in my opinion.

What do you think? Discuss.

:inti
 
I feel like British Empire made a mistake in 1947 when they only made Pakistan and India.

What they should've done is make Pakistan, Kashmir, Khalistan, and divide India into 5-10 small countries.

Correction: I think Kashmir should've been included within Pakistan.

Also, Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh should've been independent or gone to China. Those people are ethnically closer to China. :inti
 
Correction: I think Kashmir should've been included within Pakistan.

Also, Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh should've been independent or gone to China. Those people are ethnically closer to China. :inti
Why should Kashmir have been included with Pakistan and not a separate country? Any reason?
 
India is a fake country invented by foreigners and particularly by the British through the implementation of their administrative system. If it wasn't for the British, there would be no India.

What does South Indian have any connection to a Punjabi other than tenuous link through collection of some superstitious beliefs.
 
Why should Kashmir have been included with Pakistan and not a separate country? Any reason?

Kashmiris themselves feel closer to Pakistan. So, they should've been included in Pakistan. All the Kashmiri people on PP are pro-Pakistan. :inti


@sweep_shot any response to the above question?

Why open a thread when you run scared and won't debate?

:kp

I am not here always. Please be patient. :inti
 
India is a fake country invented by foreigners and particularly by the British through the implementation of their administrative system. If it wasn't for the British, there would be no India.

What does South Indian have any connection to a Punjabi other than tenuous link through collection of some superstitious beliefs.

Agree.

There was no India in the past. It was divided into many small kingdoms just like we see in modern day African continent.

Mughals and Sultanates unified all these kingdoms under their rules. After that, British Empire gave India the final identity.
 
Kashmiris themselves feel closer to Pakistan. So, they should've been included in Pakistan. All the Kashmiri people on PP are pro-Pakistan. :inti




I am not here always. Please be patient. :inti
When the partition happened in 1947, Britishers divided India and Pakistan whereas Kashmir was given a separate land.

Then immediately in the Oct of the same year, Pak army launched a war trying to annex Kashmir. To negotiate that, India also engaged in that war. The next result being half of Kashmir is now with India and other half is with Pakistan.

Will you not agree that had Pakistan not attacked in 1948 trying to annex Kashmir, we would not have any problems of present day? Kashmir by now will be a separate country like Bangladesh
 
I always commend India for creating a reasonably robust national identity despite big regional and religious differences.

The British had to business balkanizing anything. In an ideal world they should have handed the country back to the Mughals.
 
When the partition happened in 1947, Britishers divided India and Pakistan whereas Kashmir was given a separate land.

Then immediately in the Oct of the same year, Pak army launched a war trying to annex Kashmir. To negotiate that, India also engaged in that war. The next result being half of Kashmir is now with India and other half is with Pakistan.

Will you not agree that had Pakistan not attacked in 1948 trying to annex Kashmir, we would not have any problems of present day? Kashmir by now will be a separate country like Bangladesh

No. I do not agree with you because the region was seeing conflicts even before the 1948 war. Poonch rebellion, for example --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Poonch_rebellion.

Kashmiris were pro-Pakistan and still is pro-Pakistan. So, the logical thing to do at that time was to make it a part of Pakistan.
I think all the issues happened due to Hari Singh (ruler of Kashmir at that period).
 
India is a fake country invented by foreigners and particularly by the British through the implementation of their administrative system. If it wasn't for the British, there would be no India.

What does South Indian have any connection to a Punjabi other than tenuous link through collection of some superstitious beliefs.
Same connection that a Pashtun has with a Punjabi
 
If, as some people claim, the British made a blunder and India is a "fake country," then how is India progressing by leaps and bounds—now becoming the 4th largest economy in the world—while Pakistan, with whom they argue Kashmir should have aligned, is struggling and surviving on IMF bailouts?

Where does this level of false confidence even come from?
 
I always commend India for creating a reasonably robust national identity despite big regional and religious differences.

The British had to business balkanizing anything. In an ideal world they should have handed the country back to the Mughals.

There was no Mughal in 1947. So, they couldn't have handed it to Mughals.

I think dividing India into 5-10 small countries could've prevented Hindutva ideology from blossoming.

2 examples would be Nepal and Sri Lanka. Nepal is a Hindu-majority state while Sri Lanka has a large number of Hindus. But, they don't believe in Hindutva and they are pretty humble in nature.

When countries are small in size, people tend to be more humble and they tend to avoid military conflicts.

So, I definitely think British Empire made a blunder in 1947. Their blunder caused many of the future conflicts. :inti
 
Both pak, India have different races.

Sindhi, baloch, hazara, pashtun, kashmiri, punjabi to name a few in pak. Does not mean pak will also break into multiple smaller nations.
 
Both pak, India have different races.

Sindhi, baloch, hazara, pashtun, kashmiri, punjabi to name a few in pak. Does not mean pak will also break into multiple smaller nations.

Well, Pakistan is not causing issues to neighboring countries. India is causing issues in other countries (Bangladesh, Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc.).

So, balkanizing India in 1947 would've been better in hindsight. :inti
 
If, as some people claim, the British made a blunder and India is a "fake country," then how is India progressing by leaps and bounds—now becoming the 4th largest economy in the world—while Pakistan, with whom they argue Kashmir should have aligned, is struggling and surviving on IMF bailouts?

Where does this level of false confidence even come from?
Where are you in Per capita, less than a country like Albania and 136th in the World🤣🤣🤣.
 
Why should Kashmir have been included with Pakistan and not a separate country? Any reason?

I do not think Kashmir can survive as a separate country . Whether with India or Pakistan , they should have been given self administration powers , with foreign policies controlled by either India or Pakistan whomever they wanted to go with.
 
There was no Mughal in 1947. So, they couldn't have handed it to Mughals.

I think dividing India into 5-10 small countries could've prevented Hindutva ideology from blossoming.

2 examples would be Nepal and Sri Lanka. Nepal is a Hindu-majority state while Sri Lanka has a large number of Hindus. But, they don't believe in Hindutva and they are pretty humble in nature.

When countries are small in size, people tend to be more humble and they tend to avoid military conflicts.

So, I definitely think British Empire made a blunder in 1947. Their blunder caused many of the future conflicts. :inti
India also did not believe in Hindutva , it has been propagated by RSS.
Long time brain washing has resulted in this mentality.

Hinduism is not a religion , it is basically philosophy . Hindutwa is a political thing , not a religious one , but those elements which propagate that brainwash common lay man Hindus to believe this is part of religion. Sarwarkar Himself was an atheist.
 
Suppose we really want to do this counterfactual history. In that case, Pakistan wouldn't exist. The idea of Pakistan, the buy-in for Pakistan, and the political desire for Pakistan barely predated the formation of the country by more than twenty years. what you would most likely have is a united punjab and a united bengal, both with populations of around 200 to 300 million being the dominant eastern and western entities. southern india would exist as its own region, with its own countries, these would be smaller populations, and the lack of indias market economy would mean they would not have developed like they have, so they would likely have far less influence than if southern india was an indepent country today. Maharashtra and gujrat would be the most interesting countries, as they both have a long history of business, trade and entrepreneurialism, but alone they would have far less influence, and together they would likely form a volatile country.
 
India also did not believe in Hindutva , it has been propagated by RSS.
Long time brain washing has resulted in this mentality.

Hinduism is not a religion , it is basically philosophy . Hindutwa is a political thing , not a religious one , but those elements which propagate that brainwash common lay man Hindus to believe this is part of religion. Sarwarkar Himself was an atheist.

A lot of the conflicts could've been prevented had British Empire divided up India into 5-10 small countries. :inti

These same sanghis probably would've been humble like the Nepalese or Sri Lankans. People from small countries tend to be humble.
 
A lot of the conflicts could've been prevented had British Empire divided up India into 5-10 small countries. :inti

These same sanghis probably would've been humble like the Nepalese or Sri Lankans. People from small countries tend to be humble.
If I am not mistaken there were independent kingdoms at that time , later they merged with India.
 
LOL this thread 🤣 The wet day dreams dreams of our failed neighbours who cannot stop moving from one place to another with their begging bowl.

And UK 🤣
A country itself fighting an existential battle with immigrants, barely able to keep Ireland, Scotland, Wales in the union and is itself on the verge of being split into even smaller nations. The White British himself minority now in many parts of UK. 🤣

Keep feeling salty
The unstoppable March of Sanatan continues 🫡
 
I feel like British Empire made a mistake in 1947 when they only made Pakistan and India.

What they should've done is make Pakistan, Kashmir, Khalistan, and divide India into 5-10 small countries.

Had they done that, many of the future conflicts could've been prevented. It could've also kept Indians humble like the Sri Lankans or the Nepalese.

Missed opportunity.

Anyway, I still expect India to be balkanized due to domestic problems as well as conflicts with China/Pakistan. Balkanization of India can result in more peace in the subcontinent region in my opinion.

What do you think? Discuss.

:inti

The question is after 1947 India-Pakistan partition.. what Pakistan achieved?

Today India becomes 4th powerful economy in the world whereas Pakistan is a failed country surviving on IMF loans despite having many things in favor.
 
Suppose we really want to do this counterfactual history. In that case, Pakistan wouldn't exist. The idea of Pakistan, the buy-in for Pakistan, and the political desire for Pakistan barely predated the formation of the country by more than twenty years. what you would most likely have is a united punjab and a united bengal, both with populations of around 200 to 300 million being the dominant eastern and western entities. southern india would exist as its own region, with its own countries, these would be smaller populations, and the lack of indias market economy would mean they would not have developed like they have, so they would likely have far less influence than if southern india was an indepent country today. Maharashtra and gujrat would be the most interesting countries, as they both have a long history of business, trade and entrepreneurialism, but alone they would have far less influence, and together they would likely form a volatile country.

I meant British Empire could've done something like this:

- Pakistan as it was in 1947
- Kashmir
- India divided into 5-10 smaller states.

I think India received too much land. Land wasn't divided equally. :dav
 
I meant British Empire could've done something like this:

- Pakistan as it was in 1947
- Kashmir
- India divided into 5-10 smaller states.

I think India received too much land. Land wasn't divided equally. :dav
Thank God for that, otherwise Pakistan would have been begging for bailout packages from those 5-10 smaller states.
 
I meant British Empire could've done something like this:

- Pakistan as it was in 1947
- Kashmir
- India divided into 5-10 smaller states.

I think India received too much land. Land wasn't divided equally. :dav

That is because apart from muslims, no other religion or sect in India demanded a new country.

Your first 2 points were exactly what Britishers did. Carved a separate Pakistan because muslims didnt wanted to live with kaafirs and created a separate princely state of Kashmir.

Since Kashmir had a hindu king, Pakistan got paranoid that he will join with India and attacked India in Oct 1947. Kashmir has been a statue quo ever since.

Then fair skinned punjabi West Pakistanis became racists towards you lot for your skin tone and midget figure. This followed by multiple atrocities resulted in India balkanising Pakistan and creating Bangladesh.

80 years later -

Pakistan is still fighting for Kashmir, after losing 4 wars and after trying all forms of terrorism where as India is pioneering in space program.

Pakistan is surviving in IMF loans where as India is now 4th largest economy, higher than Britain.

Pakistan's COAS is openly saying how Hindus are different to them where as India is sending muslim woman to do army pc.

The contract and difference in class between an auto rickshaw and mercedes benz cant be more clear.

And you have the audacity to say India is the problem child? LOL.

Pakistan and only Pakistan is the problem child of sub continent.
#MondayMorning
 
That is because apart from muslims, no other religion or sect in India demanded a new country.

Your first 2 points were exactly what Britishers did. Carved a separate Pakistan because muslims didnt wanted to live with kaafirs and created a separate princely state of Kashmir.

Since Kashmir had a hindu king, Pakistan got paranoid that he will join with India and attacked India in Oct 1947. Kashmir has been a statue quo ever since.

Then fair skinned punjabi West Pakistanis became racists towards you lot for your skin tone and midget figure. This followed by multiple atrocities resulted in India balkanising Pakistan and creating Bangladesh.

80 years later -

Pakistan is still fighting for Kashmir, after losing 4 wars and after trying all forms of terrorism where as India is pioneering in space program.

Pakistan is surviving in IMF loans where as India is now 4th largest economy, higher than Britain.

Pakistan's COAS is openly saying how Hindus are different to them where as India is sending muslim woman to do army pc.

The contract and difference in class between an auto rickshaw and mercedes benz cant be more clear.

And you have the audacity to say India is the problem child? LOL.

Pakistan and only Pakistan is the problem child of sub continent.
#MondayMorning
What would be the comparison with Bangladesh? :inti
 
Let’s inject some historical analysis into the debate. Why were more nation-states not created on the subcontinent as the Raj came to an end?

From the perspective of the British it was simply not in their interests. In the inter-war period, it is true, that Britain sought to bolster provincial interests. In 1919 the policies outlined in the Montagu-Chemsford Report which devolved power on a provincial basis, were implemented. This increased provincial competition (now that there was some real power for Indians at this level) at the expense of co-operation at an all-India level. Provincial outlooks were therefore encouraged in this period.

But by the time the second World War ended and it became clear that Britain was leaving, it was now in their interests to hand-over power to a single party. There was an international politics dimension: a desire to keep India out of the Communist bloc. If many provinces became independent, it would be easier for the Soviet Union to interfere and influence parts of the subcontinent. Then there was the more direct material incentive: the strong desire to keep India within the Commonwealth. As many have argued, in the words of historian Wm. Roger Louis, “The Commonwealth…was not intended to end the Empire but to continue it by other means.” At the time, it was felt that keeping Indian in the Commonwealth would enable Britain to maintain a global role, protect economic trade with India and enable defence cooperation. It would also serve as a role-model for other colonies when they became independent. Then there is the psychological element: it was easier for Britain to frame the exit from India as the natural fulfilment of British stewardship, as a narrative of orderly evolution rather than disorderly decline, if power was handed over to as few parties as possible and ideally to one.

(As a footnote, the India example, as historian Miles Larmer perceptively noted, also became a template for Britain as decolonisation reached Africa. In Africa - the Gold Coast, Tanganyika, Kenya and Northern Rhodesia - we see Britain seeking to hand over the reins of power to a single nationalist party that was considered a potential ally.)

From perspective of the Congress, it hardly needs to be stated that they yearned for a united India with a strong centre and feared balkanisation. The Congress played its part in moulding a sense of nationhood in an incredibly diverse country. Structurally it reached down to the villages. Over time and through a distinctive ‘struggle-truce-struggle’ strategy, it unsettled colonial foundations of rule. It brought together many strands of nationalism and political thought. It was an ‘umbrella’ party, a coalition of many locally influential individuals and home to many varied ideas, opinions and interests. As a virtual parliament in itself it was able to accommodate conflicting viewpoints. There were of course important gaps in its support base, but it did achieve legitimacy amongst a critical mass of Indians. It therefore could not be ignored.

Leaving aside the ménage à trois between the Mountbattens and Nehru, British interests had dovetailed with Congress interests and it was therefore no surprise that Jinnah and the Muslim League came to be seen as a nuisance by the last Viceroy.

The third perspective is that of Jinnah and the Muslim League. In the Muslim majority areas, regional parties espousing localist interests and regionalist identities tended to dominate politics until quite late in the day. It was only when British departure came on the cards that they looked to Jinnah as they needed someone who had a voice at the centre. Ayesha Jalal has therefore argued that many politicians in the Muslim majority provinces supported the Muslim League out of an eagerness to protect regional autonomy rather than out of communal solidarity. But for Jinnah and other like-minded leaders, Muslim interests superseded the provincial outlook. Indeed the raising of the Pakistan demand was in many ways designed to achieve a semblance of trans-provincial political unity amongst Muslims that transcended purely provincial thinking. Therefore, the Muslim League - by directing focus to the idea of two nations rather than offering visions of provinces opting out of an Indian Union - in fact weakened the case for a balkanised India.
 
Yes Bushra Shaikh need to be taken seriously about her views on Hindu's. It is all in the name , isn't it?

Obviously she will not have any bias

1748340374385.png


Go Back Where you came from

:rabada2
 


It's not like it's Pakistanis saying, British Indians have highlighted the bootlicking mentality themselves to great effect.
 
Pakistani's, to save themselves from embarrassment and in an attempt to align with left, somehow try to paint white supremacists (whatever that means) and Indians under one bucket. What they don't realize is both these groups has got nothing in common but united to fight against the menace of Islamic terrorism that has plagued both India and UK. To hide this #fact, they play multiple cards like Indians are doing bootlicking, Hindutva fascism (which doesn't exist), white masters etc etc.

I live in this country too and seen it all. They aren't fooling anyone unfortunately.
 
Pakistani's, to save themselves from embarrassment and in an attempt to align with left, somehow try to paint white supremacists (whatever that means) and Indians under one bucket. What they don't realize is both these groups has got nothing in common but united to fight against the menace of Islamic terrorism that has plagued both India and UK. To hide this #fact, they play multiple cards like Indians are doing bootlicking, Hindutva fascism (which doesn't exist), white masters etc etc.

I live in this country too and seen it all. They aren't fooling anyone unfortunately.

The white supremacist fight against "Islamic terrorism" has mostly fallen on deaf ears among the general public. Guys like Tommy Robinson are considered low rent hooligans that the vast majority don't want to associate with. Apart from the hindutva crowd who try to piggyback on their racism in the hope that Indians will thus gain acceptance as a tolerated minority.
 
The white supremacist fight against "Islamic terrorism" has mostly fallen on deaf ears among the general public. Guys like Tommy Robinson are considered low rent hooligans that the vast majority don't want to associate with. Apart from the hindutva crowd who try to piggyback on their racism in the hope that Indians will thus gain acceptance as a tolerated minority.
That is what you think but unless you have done a survey/poll to come to such conclusions, it is just your opinion.

If Islamic terrorism, which is a real threat to the world, has fallen into deaf ears as you are alluding to, it is concerning. You sure that is happening in Britain? By Britain, I mean entire Britain and not the areas where usual suspects lives.
 
That is what you think but unless you have done a survey/poll to come to such conclusions, it is just your opinion.

If Islamic terrorism, which is a real threat to the world, has fallen into deaf ears as you are alluding to, it is concerning. You sure that is happening in Britain? By Britain, I mean entire Britain and not the areas where usual suspects lives.

Yes it's my opinion as against yours. Have you done a survey/poll to come to any conclusions otherwise? Please share if so.
 
Yes it's my opinion as against yours. Have you done a survey/poll to come to any conclusions otherwise? Please share if so.
No I havent. And if this is your personal opinion, you are entitled to have one. No issues.
 
Let’s inject some historical analysis into the debate. Why were more nation-states not created on the subcontinent as the Raj came to an end?

From the perspective of the British it was simply not in their interests. In the inter-war period, it is true, that Britain sought to bolster provincial interests. In 1919 the policies outlined in the Montagu-Chemsford Report which devolved power on a provincial basis, were implemented. This increased provincial competition (now that there was some real power for Indians at this level) at the expense of co-operation at an all-India level. Provincial outlooks were therefore encouraged in this period.

But by the time the second World War ended and it became clear that Britain was leaving, it was now in their interests to hand-over power to a single party. There was an international politics dimension: a desire to keep India out of the Communist bloc. If many provinces became independent, it would be easier for the Soviet Union to interfere and influence parts of the subcontinent. Then there was the more direct material incentive: the strong desire to keep India within the Commonwealth. As many have argued, in the words of historian Wm. Roger Louis, “The Commonwealth…was not intended to end the Empire but to continue it by other means.” At the time, it was felt that keeping Indian in the Commonwealth would enable Britain to maintain a global role, protect economic trade with India and enable defence cooperation. It would also serve as a role-model for other colonies when they became independent. Then there is the psychological element: it was easier for Britain to frame the exit from India as the natural fulfilment of British stewardship, as a narrative of orderly evolution rather than disorderly decline, if power was handed over to as few parties as possible and ideally to one.

(As a footnote, the India example, as historian Miles Larmer perceptively noted, also became a template for Britain as decolonisation reached Africa. In Africa - the Gold Coast, Tanganyika, Kenya and Northern Rhodesia - we see Britain seeking to hand over the reins of power to a single nationalist party that was considered a potential ally.)

From perspective of the Congress, it hardly needs to be stated that they yearned for a united India with a strong centre and feared balkanisation. The Congress played its part in moulding a sense of nationhood in an incredibly diverse country. Structurally it reached down to the villages. Over time and through a distinctive ‘struggle-truce-struggle’ strategy, it unsettled colonial foundations of rule. It brought together many strands of nationalism and political thought. It was an ‘umbrella’ party, a coalition of many locally influential individuals and home to many varied ideas, opinions and interests. As a virtual parliament in itself it was able to accommodate conflicting viewpoints. There were of course important gaps in its support base, but it did achieve legitimacy amongst a critical mass of Indians. It therefore could not be ignored.

Leaving aside the ménage à trois between the Mountbattens and Nehru, British interests had dovetailed with Congress interests and it was therefore no surprise that Jinnah and the Muslim League came to be seen as a nuisance by the last Viceroy.

The third perspective is that of Jinnah and the Muslim League. In the Muslim majority areas, regional parties espousing localist interests and regionalist identities tended to dominate politics until quite late in the day. It was only when British departure came on the cards that they looked to Jinnah as they needed someone who had a voice at the centre. Ayesha Jalal has therefore argued that many politicians in the Muslim majority provinces supported the Muslim League out of an eagerness to protect regional autonomy rather than out of communal solidarity. But for Jinnah and other like-minded leaders, Muslim interests superseded the provincial outlook. Indeed the raising of the Pakistan demand was in many ways designed to achieve a semblance of trans-provincial political unity amongst Muslims that transcended purely provincial thinking. Therefore, the Muslim League - by directing focus to the idea of two nations rather than offering visions of provinces opting out of an Indian Union - in fact weakened the case for a balkanised India.
Thanks for such detailed information :)
 
What is your opinion on post #30 brother?

:qdkcheeky
Do you need just one more like to make your day? It seems you put a lot of effort into writing that post lol

Many of the points regarding past events have already been thoroughly discussed here, so why waste more time on them?

Pakistan is currently facing substantial challenges in terms of its economy and security. However, we pray for the country, and hope that one day, things will improve, God willing.

I will focus solely on the recent conflict between the countries, about which I have written extensively. Initially, India targeted civilians and mosques. When they attacked the air bases, Pakistan retaliated forcefully, prompting Modi to request U.S. intervention. This is my perspective on the matter. You are entitled to your views, of course.
 
This is a real problem with an influx of Indian immigrants. They have no idea of British manners or etiquette, those on the train would probably be too polite to say it, but opening a container of smelly food and consuming it on public transport in an enclosed space is a big no no.

This is the sort of stuff which makes the indiginous population anti-immigration.

Yet we have pajeets like Rajdeep, who you recently interacted with here in this thread, claims Muslims are the "real threat threat to the world"
 
Yet we have pajeets like Rajdeep, who you recently interacted with here in this thread, claims Muslims are the "real threat threat to the world"
Next time tag me directly. Though I don't endorse eating with hands in tube but how is it different from eating Sandwiches, hotdogs, KFC or British Kids getting drunk and vomiting in tubes every weekend after 11pm?

Most importantly, how an innocent lady sitting quietly and eating with hand is a threat to the world? :ROFLMAO:

Pakistanis like you are getting frustrated now, looking helpless and latching onto anything

I suppose eating curry with hand in the tube is less threatening to the world than blowing the entire tube out.

:rp
 
Eating rice and curry with hands is a big threat to English culture. I'm sure native Brits are more threatened by that than child grooming gangs and inner city crimes
 
The idea that India was a colonial construct held together by British design is incorrect and misinformed. India is not an artificial state like many post-colonial nations - Africa etc it is a civilizational entity with millennia of cultural, economic, and spiritual continuity. The British didn’t unite India but they interrupted a subcontinent that had long been connected through empires, trade, and shared values.

Congress feared balkanization not because India lacked unity, but because colonial policies like divide-and-rule and the partition had already fractured that ancient cohesion. Jinnah’s legacy wasn’t centralization it was communal division that led to further fragmentation, as seen in the breakaway of East Pakistan and look at the situation in Balochistan, KPK, Afghan border and even PoK today. Later with the Pakistan military taking over the national ideology, brick by brick and decade by decade the idea of creating an artificial identity for subcontinental muslims has been falling apart.

The British had no idea what they were doing with India, they were themselves fighting an existential crisis against Hitler and couldn't careless about whatever happened with the subcontinent. India didn’t survive because of British planning; it survived despite colonial damage. Its endurance as a pluralist democracy is due to its own civilizational strength not the scaffolding of empire. Those who saw India as a British patchwork failed to understand what truly binds it: not lines on a map, but a deep, living unity far older than the British empire.

Indian nationalism is strong. There are always healthy internal debates over our differences but we are always united under one cause that is the idea of India as a proud civilization. This emotion supersedes the idea of mere nation states.
 
That is because apart from muslims, no other religion or sect in India demanded a new country.
For those who demonise and dehumanise Muslims, it may be comforting to believe that Muslims as an abnormal, trouble-making community were aberrant in pushing separatist demands in British India. For such intellectually challenged individuals, I might as well whistle in the wind.

But for the more genuinely curious and open-minded, I would make the following argument. Because the Muslim League succeeded in some measure in creating Pakistan, there is a tendency to view its demands as being of a special nature. Yet, when viewed both in its regional and international contexts, the sense of foreboding that the Muslim minority felt and articulated was a far more generalised sentiment. The sense of unease crystallised with the introduction of electoral politics, where numbers mattered.

The Frontier as a Case Study

As a case study, one can look at the Frontier province. Because of its strategic location, popular election of parts of the provincial government was introduced in the settled districts only in 1932 - much later than most other provinces. Legislative politics in the 1930s revolved to a great extent around the apprehension of minorities. Hindus and Sikhs feared that the dominant position they had in government employment would be challenged. The minorities also feared that the Education department would now discriminate against them in grants-in-aid. But, as historian Stephen Rittenberg (Ethnicity, Nationalism, and the Pakhtuns) has shown, the issue that evoked the greatest controversy was an administrative circular, which made Urdu or English the mandatory language of instruction from the third grade in government aided girls’ schools. This measure had been proposed by English officers to standardise the province’s educational system. It was already in force for boys schools. It did not bar Hindi or Gurmukhi as being taught as second language and the Frontier Muslims were in the same position in that Pashtu or Hindko could not be the primarily mode of instruction either.

Yet, for the Hindus and Sikhs, it became a symbolic matter of utmost importance. One Frontier Hindu, wrote to the government:

“These memoranda forecast the fate of Hindu and Sikh minorities in that Province when full Provincial Autonomy will be introduced under the new Government of India act.”

A Hindi-Gurmukhi Defence committee was formed. Minority members of the provincial legislature boycotted the legislature in in 1935 and explained in a letter:

“We feel that this circular constitutes a grave menace and a direct challenge to our religion and culture.”

One can point to other examples in the Frontier. Even during Khan Sahib’s Frontier Congress led ministry in the years 1937-39, in the aftermath of the granting of limited self-government, disenchantment was expressed with some of the legislation that was enacted. Dr C.C. Ghosh, a founding member of the Frontier Congress, complained to V.D Savarkar, that Hindu support for the organisation had only served to “place them under Muslim majority…Congress (Red Shirt) attitude during the Congress Ministry days towards the minorities were most tyrannous.”

These concerns in many ways mirrored the anxieties that Muslims felt in provinces where they were in a minority.

Bengal and Punjab

The Frontier’s experience was not unique. In the case of Bengal, Joya Chatterji (Bengal Divided) has argued that with the formation of Muslim majority governments in Bengal, the Hindu Bhadralok felt their traditional dominance was under threat and they began to support partition. Partition was seen as a way to regain influence. In the case of the Punjab, Neeti Nair (Changing Homelands) has argued that some powerful Hindus also preferred partition as they feared being marginalised as a minority in a Muslim-majority united Punjab.

Within Punjab there was also the rise of Sikh nationalism as Gurharpal Singh and Giorgio Shani have documented (Sikh Nationalism). This culminated in call for a Sikh state in 1946. The resolution of the Shiromani Akali Dal read:

“Whereas the Sikhs being attached to the Punjab by intimate bonds of holy shrines, property, language, traditions, and history claim it as their homeland and holy land which the British took as a ‘trust’ from the last Sikh ruler during his minority and whereas the entity of the Sikhs is being threatened on account of the persistent demand of Pakistan by the Muslims on the one hand and of danger of absorption by the Hindus on the other, the executive committee of the Shironmani Akali Dal demands for the preservation and protection of the religious, cultural, and economic and political rights of the Sikh nation, the creation of a Sikh state which would include a substantial majority of the Sikh population and their sacred shrines and historical gurdwaras with the provision for the transfer and exchange of populations and property.”

One Sikh nationalist explained the desire for the Sikh state in the following way: “Being a minority, we don’t ask for the rights of a majority. What we ask for is separate existence where we may not complain of being ruled by any other majority nation, nor should any majority nation complain of the veto power being in the possession of a minority.”

Elsewhere in South Asia

In 1944, the leader of the Dalits, Dr. Ambedkar confided to a British officer: “In every village there is a tiny minority of Untouchables. I want to gather those minorities together and make them into majorities. This means a tremendous work of organisation - transferring populations, building new villages. But we can do it, if only we are allowed to [by the British].”

In 1942, the All India Depressed Classes Conference met at Nagpur, bringing together, 70,000 delegates across large parts of India. Christophe Jaffrelot (Dr Ambedkar and Untouchability), writes that the conference passed the following resolutions:

"The first resolution voted on this occasion demanded a separate electorate for Untouchables; the second sought the establishment of separate villages for Untouchables, 'at a distance from the Hindu villages'; and the third announced the creation of the Scheduled Castes' Federation (SCF).

The creation of the SCF therefore reflected a new mood, a new sense of identity among Untouchables. The Scheduled Castes wished to be recognised as a minority in the same way as Muslims were, and, as a consequence, sought the benefit, not only of a separate electorate, but also of separate territories."

In summary, Dalit leaders too foresaw, in the words of Faisal Devji (Muslim Zion), the “risk of being submerged within some larger community in a subordinate way, thus illustrating how fragile the categories of majority and minority really were, and how generalised the fears of being swamped by larger numbers. In some sense, then, the Muslim League’s intermittent criticism of these categories, and attempts to avoid them altogether, had a certain political truth about it.”

In the very different context of the north-east of British India in the hill areas of what is now Nagaland, the ‘Naga community’ expressed similar concerns. In 1929, members of the Naga club handed over a memorandum to the British commission. Marcus Franke (War and Nationalism in South Asia), summarised the concerns in the memorandum:

“Their population was small, compared to those in the plains and a however designed representation on their side would have no weight at all. Their languages were completely different from those of the plains and they had not the slightest social affinities with either Hindus or Muslims…These statements were followed by fear of becoming dominated socially, culturally, politically and economically by the Assamese and Indians, if the Nagas were included under the reforms.”

It was “the realisation—filled with consternation—that their future could lie with the plainsmen who were superior to them in every way, especially in numbers. The fear they might be culturally and economically overpowered by those who despised them,” that led to the people of Naga preferring either autonomy or for the British to remain.

Such concerns were not specific to British India. The introduction of elective principle in Ceylon, for example, sparked concerns amongst the minority Tamil community. Governor Clifford noted in 1926:

“recently the differences between the Sinhalese— especially the low country Sinhalese— and the Tamils on the Council have shown signs of becoming accentuated; the latter suspecting the former of designs to dominate the whole political situation by sheer weight of numbers”

The introduction of universal suffrage in 1931 only enlarged such concerns. In response, in four out of the five seats in the Tamil majority Northern province, elections to the first State Council in 1931 were boycotted.

Beyond South Asia: the Bigger Picture

What needs to be emphasised is how unsettling the rise of nationalism and representative institutions were to minorities. As Jane Burbank and Frederick Cooper remind us in their book on Empire: “Throughout history, most people have lived in political units that did not pretend to represent a single people. Making state conform with nation is a recent phenomenon.”

Empires were of course hierarchical and exclusionary, but loyalty in the final analysis was owed to the ruler and the dynasty and not to an ethnicity. Whereas a state under empire “declares the non-equivalence of multiple populations,” the nation-state by contrast “proclaims the commonality of its people.”

Aamir Mufti (Enlightenment in the colony) has linked the development of Muslim separatism to the history of the Jewish ‘question’ in Europe. He argued that minoritisation was inherent in the ‘nationalising’ of people, with the Jewish case being an exemplary instance. He perceptively notes how nationalism has historically been quite disruptive:

"nationalism has historically been a great disrupter of social and cultural relations, that its reconstitution of societies and populations in terms of distinct narratives of collective life always implies setting forth an entire dynamic of inclusion and exclusion within the very social formation that it claims as uniquely its own and with which it declares itself identical. Thus the great ‘‘accomplishment,’’ we might say, of nationalism as a distinctly modern form of political and cultural identity is not that it is a great settling of peoples—‘‘this place for this people.’’ Rather, its distinguishing mark historically has been precisely that it makes large numbers of people eminently unsettled. More simply put, whenever a population is minoritised—a process inherent in the nationalisation of peoples and cultural practices—it is also rendered potentially movable."

In linking Pakistan to a much larger story that transcends South Asia, we should also note the collapse of the world order with the onset of World War 2. As Faisal Devji writes, “ideas of multinational federations, autonomous zones and partnerships in empire…were common in the period following the First World War, with its mandates and minority protections guaranteed by the League of Nations.” But the “the collapse of all these arrangements after 1939” had “forced upon men like Jinnah the realisation that however regrettable, such schemes were no longer tenable.”

Unlike many others, the Muslims who supported the demand for Pakistan succeeded in carving out a separate state. They would not have been able to do so had they not had the sheer force of numbers on their side in Bengal and in the north-west of the Indian subcontinent. As a comparison, the case for the Sikh state was scuppered by the reality, which was noted by the secretary of state for India:

“Owing to the fact that in no single district of Punjab do they constitute a majority of the population, it is out of the question to meet their claims by setting up a separate state.”

The fear of majoritarianism, the sense of exclusion from the dominant culture and what this might mean in a country or indeed province ruled by the weight of numbers was an issue for many minorities. The Muslims of India who advocated a separatist path in the age of nationalism were not exceptional.
 
Next time tag me directly. Though I don't endorse eating with hands in tube but how is it different from eating Sandwiches, hotdogs, KFC or British Kids getting drunk and vomiting in tubes every weekend after 11pm?

Most importantly, how an innocent lady sitting quietly and eating with hand is a threat to the world? :ROFLMAO:

Pakistanis like you are getting frustrated now, looking helpless and latching onto anything

I suppose eating curry with hand in the tube is less threatening to the world than blowing the entire tube out.

:rp

Sandwiches are fine, that point was actually made in the video, because it is cold food which doesn't smell.

KFC, hotdogs and vomit obviously not so much, but then I doubt Tommy Robinson supporting Indians would ever say that openly, it would be "of course saar! You are von thousand parcent correct saar!!"
 
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