Did you know about that West Indian coach?

[Junaids]

Well, the dust is settling now on an enthralling series.

But I thought that people might be interested to learn about that apparently cuddly teddy bear of a man in the tight blue West Indies shirt.



Because he is part of a story of greatness.

That man is Roddy Estwick, the man who was appointed as the bowling coach a year ago. That in itself was a surprise, because he took Apartheid's Krugerrands to play in South Africa when it was a Pariah state, and most of his peers - notably the great batsman Laurence Rowe - have never been forgiven.

Estwick was a superb fast bowler. His career was ruined by two factors.

Firstly, he was around thirteenth in line for the West Indies fast bowling attack behind:

Malcolm Marshall - a superior version of Dale Steyn
Andy Roberts
Michael Holding - similar to Allan Donald
Joel Garner - almost identical to McGrath and Ambrose
Sylvester Clarke
Curtly Ambrose
Courtney Walsh
Franklyn Stephenson
Ezra Moseley
Eldine Baptiste
Patrick Patterson
Winston Davis

Of those, Marshall, Garner, Stephenson, Clarke and Moseley used to keep him out of the Barbados team!

Yet every one of those bowlers down as far as Moseley would be the world's best fast bowler now.

Secondly, English county cricket massively reduced the number of foreign players a team could sign, and by the late eighties Estwick was reduced to having to go to South Africa to get a contract.

But he was always quick - well into the 140's - and he could swing it into the right-hander, and he ended up averaging 21.90 in county cricket and the South African Currie Cup, mixed in with a few games for Barbados.

But there the story gets really, really interesting.

Because the most notorious of all the West Indian fast bowlers who went to play in Apartheid era South Africa was Sylvester Clarke.

Who was Roddy Estwick's brother.

I lived in England until I was 25, and every West Indian fast bowler used to play county cricket. So did Imran Khan and Wasim Akram and Allan Donald.

And none of them had the terrifying reputation of Sylvester Clarke. Not even close.

We could all see that he was not just the nastiest, he was the fastest too.

Not the most skilled - when Waqar Younis replaced an ageing Sylvester Clarke at Surrey he kept the pace well up into the 150's, but he added swing that Clarke never had.

Clarke was an undisciplined, often ill-tempered bully. He hospitalised a spectator at Multan who made the near-fatal mistake of throwing a brick at him by returning it five times as fast, straight into his skull.

On that tour of Pakistan, Clarke took 14 wickets at an average of 17.28. A year earlier, Dennis Lillee had taken 3 wickets in Pakistan at an average of 101.00.

But all the batsmen on the county circuit - most memorably David Gower - agreed that he was the fastest and scariest of all.

Many a batsman underestimated this borderline obese man who gently ran in to bowl. Unfortunately for them, his immensely powerful shoulders then unleashed a thunderbolt, unless he was tired after a big night - or late in his career a long opening spell - at which times he'd bowl rubbish at 130K until out of the blue he would find a thunderbolt to knock the batsman's block off.

Clarke's pace was only ever measured once, by the South African police using their newest radar gun during four spells for a total of 15 overs in a First Class Currie Cup match at The Wanderers in Johannesburg.

Clarke's slowest ball of the day measured 98 miles an hour - 157.7 kilometers an hour. His fastest was measured at 101 miles per hour - 162.5 kilometers an hour.

Clarke had an astonishing career - his First Class average was 19.52 even after 942 wickets.

So next time you see the cuddly teddy bear figure of Roddy Estwick, just remember who he is, and that he lost the international career he so richly deserved because he happened to be born on Barbados at the precise time when the tiny island of less than 300,000 people was incubating the greatest domestic pace attack in history.

And spare a thought for his brother, the nastiest fast bowler of them all, who didn't even live to see his 45th birthday before his hard living caught up with him.

 

[fasihulhaq94]

thats a great read

 

[Bewal Express]

I remember reading that When England toured the Windies In 1995, Greame Thorpe felt that the 42 year old Clarke was the quickest bowler he had faced all tour after Clarke turned up to bowl in the nets.

 

[Junaids]

I remember reading that When England toured the Windies In 1995, Greame Thorpe felt that the 42 year old Clarke was the quickest bowler he had faced all tour after Clarke turned up to bowl in the nets.

He probably was.

I've never taken much notice of Shoaib Akhtar's "record" of 161.3 km/h, because it's just the fastest ball that's been measured on TV using current technology.

And I've been conscious for years that Clarke was measured at a faster speed at The Wanderers.

I'm sure that the fastest balls in history took place far away from the cameras. I remember Shoaib's breakout series in South Africa in 1997-98, and I'm pretty certain he was at his fastest then.

 

[ExpressPacer]

A good post.

 

[ExpressPacer]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] If I am not wrong, I remember Imran Khan also praising Sylvester Clark in an interview. I think he spoke of him with regards to the abundance of Fast bowling talent in the Caribbean and that guys like him barely made the team despite being terrific.

 

[Bewal Express]

In the 80`s Warwickshire had Tony Merryick and he was as good as Allan Donald but never played for the Windies. I think 90% the Windies bowlers of the last 20 years wouldnt have been good enough to be net bowlers in the 70`s and 80`s.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] If I am not wrong, I remember Imran Khan also praising Sylvester Clark in an interview. I think he spoke of him with regards to the abundance of Fast bowling talent in the Caribbean and that guys like him barely made the team despite being terrific.

Yes, Imran Khan was a huge admirer of West Indian talent. He used to have to bat and bowl against them all in county cricket.

The last time I remember Imran playing Clarke was in the late eighties in the group stages of the Benson and Hedges Cup. I was listening on the radio while I was meant to be revising for medical school exams. On reflection, that must mean that this was straight after the famous Pakistan tour of the West Indies in 1987-88, the greatest Test series of all, which was drawn 1-1.

Sussex batted first and scored less than 200 in their 55 overs, and Imran was I think the top scorer.

But Surrey needed to knock off the runs in something like 25 overs to go through. They lost of course, but not before Sylvester Clarke the batsman slogged Imran Khan in a way that I'd never heard anyone do to him, all over the place!

Then

 

[MMHS]

Clarke was unbelievably quick. There is a significant gap between his FC stats & Test stats, probably because of his inferior skills - at FC level, he got lots of wickets by terrorizing inferior batsmen.
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] -in your list, you missed one more guy, who played his last Test at 28, in 1982 - Colin Croft.

 

[Junaids]

Clarke was unbelievably quick. There is a significant gap between his FC stats & Test stats, probably because of his inferior skills - at FC level, he got lots of wickets by terrorizing inferior batsmen.
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] -in your list, you missed one more guy, who played his last Test at 28, in 1982 - Colin Croft.

Funnily enough, I'd have included Colin Croft if it was just a piece about Sylvester Clarke.

But Estwick is 7 years younger than Clarke - they have different fathers - and Croft was already gone by the time Estwick was an international - or even island - prospect.

I thought twice about including Andy Roberts too, but he overlapped with Estwick from 1982 to 1984.

I could have added Hartley Alleyne too - he was another Barbadian, who also played for Worcestershire, and he was around the pace and quality of Shannon Gabriel, so right down the bottom of my earlier list with Winston Davis.

@Bewal_Express is right to add Tony Merrick to the list: he was another Antiguan like Ambrose and Baptiste and Winston and Kenneth Benjamin.

Which is an even more crazy thing. Antigua, population 80,000, from 1984 to 1994 could field a better pace attack than any other country on earth apart from Barbados!

 

[MMHS]

Funnily enough, I'd have included Colin Croft if it was just a piece about Sylvester Clarke.

But Estwick is 7 years younger than Clarke - they have different fathers - and Croft was already gone by the time Estwick was an international - or even island - prospect.

I thought twice about including Andy Roberts too, but he overlapped with Estwick from 1982 to 1984.

I could have added Hartley Alleyne too - he was another Barbadian, who also played for Worcestershire, and he was around the pace and quality of Shannon Gabriel, so right down the bottom of my earlier list with Winston Davis.

@Bewal_Express is right to add Tony Merrick to the list: he was another Antiguan like Ambrose and Baptiste and Winston and Kenneth Benjamin.

Which is an even more crazy thing. Antigua, population 80,000, from 1984 to 1994 could field a better pace attack than any other country on earth apart from Barbados!

And, that time, they had couple of guys who could bat a bit as well - IVA Richards & RB Richardson!!!!!!!

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] brings a distinct, enjoyable dimension to Pakpassion.


I disagree with him on certain things but learn alot aswell while reading his posts.

This is an excellent post of his.


Off Topic Junaids Hasan Ali is not 5'7. To me he looks 5'8.5 to 5'9 and Amir isn't 6, he looks 5'10.5 to 5'11 max.

 

[Junaids]

And, that time, they had couple of guys who could bat a bit as well - IVA Richards & RB Richardson!!!!!!!

It really shows the power of setting an example in person.

I would argue that Ambrose, Merrick, Baptiste and the two Benjamins happened because of the example of Sir Andy Roberts.

And I'd argue that Sir Richie Richardson (and Keith Arthurton and Stuart Williams) was a result of the example of Sir Viv Richards.

That's why I was so excited to see the ground in Dominica packed today. Dominica is not really a fully-fledged part of the West Indies - it's in the Leeward Islands but they play as part of the Windward Islands, and because it's sandwiched between 2 French islands the people watch French TV and speak French Creole and their history with cricket is almost non-existent.

In fact, when the USA invaded Grenada in 1983 and scandalised the Queen and the West Indies by invading a Commonwealth nation, it was Dominica's Prime Minister Eugenia Charles who provided President Reagan with a figleaf of respectability.

And I mention that simply to highlight that Dominica's identity as part of the West Indies has always been superficial, and to see them take to cricket at last is wonderful!

 

[JaDed]

Good read even though it could be biased and layered with nostalgia,still wonderful to read some of Junaids' posts.

 

[Junaids]

Thanks for the kind words.

Firstly, a correction. The Pakistani spectator only hit Sylvester Clarke with an orange. It was Clarke who thought that throwing a brick at the man's hand was a proportionate response.

Secondly, this is a terrific article about Sylvester Clarke......

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/c...vester-clarke-cricket-fast-bowler-west-indies

 

[Junaids]

Clarke was unbelievably quick. There is a significant gap between his FC stats & Test stats, probably because of his inferior skills - at FC level, he got lots of wickets by terrorizing inferior batsmen.

The other thing to remember is that Clarke played 9 of his 11 Tests in India and Pakistan.

His main weapon apart from intimidation was lift. But he didn't get the chance to play in Australia, or in official Tests in South Africa.

 

[gibsyhesperis]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] -- great post. Clarke really was quick but was indeed a miserable bugger.
At Surrey, at the time, one of the expectations was that the pros helped the rising talent from local clubs (and schools). A group of 16 to 17year olds duly went to the Oval, were shown around and then had a chance to go into the nets against the pros. To be honest none of the pros really wanted to be there but acknowledged it was good PR for the Surrey etc. They went easy in the nets and shook a few hands afterwards (pre-selfie days !).
Clarke made clear he didn't want to be there, was miserable to everyone and thenbowled one over -- full pace. Hit one young lad a hard blow on the hip and nearly broke the hand of another. Dispatched rapidly by the powers to be.
Odd man who had multiple chips on his shoulder about how he felt he was treated by authority in general.

 

[Junaids]

@<a href="http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=132916" target="_blank">Junaids</a> -- great post. Clarke really was quick but was indeed a miserable bugger.
At Surrey, at the time, one of the expectations was that the pros helped the rising talent from local clubs (and schools). A group of 16 to 17year olds duly went to the Oval, were shown around and then had a chance to go into the nets against the pros. To be honest none of the pros really wanted to be there but acknowledged it was good PR for the Surrey etc. They went easy in the nets and shook a few hands afterwards (pre-selfie days !).
Clarke made clear he didn't want to be there, was miserable to everyone and thenbowled one over -- full pace. Hit one young lad a hard blow on the hip and nearly broke the hand of another. Dispatched rapidly by the powers to be.
Odd man who had multiple chips on his shoulder about how he felt he was treated by authority in general.

Fascinating - thanks!

To give people an idea of what Clarke was like, this is him bowling to Peter Kirsten in a Rebel Test in South Africa.

Before you watch it, you need to know about Kirsten. South Africa was only readmitted to Test cricket when he was almost 40, but he was the greatest South African batsman after the 1960's crop (Richards and Pollock) and before the modern crop (Kallis, De Villiers and Amla).

I would say that Peter Kirsten was roughly the quality of a Ricky Ponting or a Steve Smith.

And this is him facing Sylvester Clarke. As I wrote earlier, it's all about lift and pace.

And yes, I understand that [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] is going to show us how close the keeper was! (Incidentally, the keeper is the secret son of Sir Everton Weekes, David Murray, now reduced to begging in Barbados.)

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

the stories that people tell - the legends that they make - the shadows, that just continue to grow longer and longer with the passage of time.

the hyperbole in some of the posts here is immense. ive read lillee's book - excerpts from it, and he stated that when his pace was measured, it was in the 90 miles range - years later, in the time of youtube, i saw video of that competition and lillee wasn't even in the late 80's.

old folks talk about fast bowlers as if they were the fastest - maybe they were fast, but not as fast as we are made to believe.

 

[BD-fan]

Junaid, Great read.

But Estwick is 7 years younger than Clarke - they have different fathers - and Croft was already gone by the time Estwick was an international - or even island - prospect.

Roberts, Marshal, Garner, Holding all left before as well. Croft is the 5th wheel of the legendary pace battery. He is inseparable from those 4.

 

[the Great Khan]

I can only imagine the devastation he could have caused at the Gabba..

Great thread by the way and helps fill a gap in my knowledge as i was in junior school and optimus prime was a hero not Viv. lol

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION],

In these discussions about players from a long bygone era accuracy and reality are a dead certain casualties. Especially in Cricket. After-all who wants these pesky and stubborn things to ruin what would otherwise be a cute happy lovey dovey teary mushy story ? I have said this before and I say it again ... No other sport suffers more from this disorder than Cricket. The legend and accomplishments of these players often keep growing long after they have played their last ball or for that matter even after their passing !!

I must say though that most people don't mind this at all. Because some of these players didn't even play enough Test cricket to merit even a statistical cut-off. A lot of them never played in Asia Doesn't matter, some never played Limited overs cricket - doesn't matter. Some never played against half of the main 9 Test playing countries again doesn't matter. A lot were never truly professional cricketers like those who play today. Even better if there isn't a footage to go with the words. After-all who in their right mind would challenge ? So therefore these are all inconsequential. All that matters is the reams of accolades from old news paper articles and sports magazines that paint a very rosy picture of cricket ( with no real evidence - which goes without saying ) .

So that is the general state of affairs in Cricket. Plenty here who will be proud of their "knowledge" about accomplishments of many a obscure player from the past. Its almost a fashion statement. A matter of pride for the cricket Nerds. Like a certificate of authenticity if you will. Purest form of elitism !. You can find them reminding us unworthy mere mortals of how Sir Viv would chew out and spit out current fast bowlers like they were a bad chewing gum. Once in a while when in the mood I decide to engage with such posters and the result is often very entertaining (atleast for me as I watch them go to extreme extents to defend their heroes who they never watched nor do they care about facts . At some point it becomes a case of urban myth !).

As for why I don't follow the bandwagon ... well its a simple matter of being truthful to my own conscience. I just don't see the need or the value of believing in fiction as fact. And I totally admit that its okay to be otherwise ( hey it takes all kinds for the world to go around !! )
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION]

 

[EliteCynical]

Well, the dust is settling now on an enthralling series.

But I thought that people might be interested to learn about that apparently cuddly teddy bear of a man in the tight blue West Indies shirt.

View attachment 74078

Because he is part of a story of greatness.

That man is Roddy Estwick, the man who was appointed as the bowling coach a year ago. That in itself was a surprise, because he took Apartheid's Krugerrands to play in South Africa when it was a Pariah state, and most of his peers - notably the great batsman Laurence Rowe - have never been forgiven.

Estwick was a superb fast bowler. His career was ruined by two factors.

Firstly, he was around thirteenth in line for the West Indies fast bowling attack behind:

Malcolm Marshall - a superior version of Dale Steyn
Andy Roberts
Michael Holding - similar to Allan Donald
Joel Garner - almost identical to McGrath and Ambrose
Sylvester Clarke
Curtly Ambrose
Courtney Walsh
Franklyn Stephenson
Ezra Moseley
Eldine Baptiste
Patrick Patterson
Winston Davis

Of those, Marshall, Garner, Stephenson, Clarke and Moseley used to keep him out of the Barbados team!

Yet every one of those bowlers down as far as Moseley would be the world's best fast bowler now.

Secondly, English county cricket massively reduced the number of foreign players a team could sign, and by the late eighties Estwick was reduced to having to go to South Africa to get a contract.

But he was always quick - well into the 140's - and he could swing it into the right-hander, and he ended up averaging 21.90 in county cricket and the South African Currie Cup, mixed in with a few games for Barbados.

But there the story gets really, really interesting.

Because the most notorious of all the West Indian fast bowlers who went to play in Apartheid era South Africa was Sylvester Clarke.

Who was Roddy Estwick's brother.

I lived in England until I was 25, and every West Indian fast bowler used to play county cricket. So did Imran Khan and Wasim Akram and Allan Donald.

And none of them had the terrifying reputation of Sylvester Clarke. Not even close.

We could all see that he was not just the nastiest, he was the fastest too.

Not the most skilled - when Waqar Younis replaced an ageing Sylvester Clarke at Surrey he kept the pace well up into the 150's, but he added swing that Clarke never had.

Clarke was an undisciplined, often ill-tempered bully. He hospitalised a spectator at Multan who made the near-fatal mistake of throwing a brick at him by returning it five times as fast, straight into his skull.

On that tour of Pakistan, Clarke took 14 wickets at an average of 17.28. A year earlier, Dennis Lillee had taken 3 wickets in Pakistan at an average of 101.00.

But all the batsmen on the county circuit - most memorably David Gower - agreed that he was the fastest and scariest of all.

Many a batsman underestimated this borderline obese man who gently ran in to bowl. Unfortunately for them, his immensely powerful shoulders then unleashed a thunderbolt, unless he was tired after a big night - or late in his career a long opening spell - at which times he'd bowl rubbish at 130K until out of the blue he would find a thunderbolt to knock the batsman's block off.

Clarke's pace was only ever measured once, by the South African police using their newest radar gun during four spells for a total of 15 overs in a First Class Currie Cup match at The Wanderers in Johannesburg.

Clarke's slowest ball of the day measured 98 miles an hour - 157.7 kilometers an hour. His fastest was measured at 101 miles per hour - 162.5 kilometers an hour.

Clarke had an astonishing career - his First Class average was 19.52 even after 942 wickets.

So next time you see the cuddly teddy bear figure of Roddy Estwick, just remember who he is, and that he lost the international career he so richly deserved because he happened to be born on Barbados at the precise time when the tiny island of less than 300,000 people was incubating the greatest domestic pace attack in history.

And spare a thought for his brother, the nastiest fast bowler of them all, who didn't even live to see his 45th birthday before his hard living caught up with him.

Phenomenal Junaids. This is a brilliant read. Thank you very much.
Remember Clarke made Viv Richards wear a helmet, so I am not surprised.

Quick Question - Are they siblings ? If yes, then why the different last names?

 

[EliteCynical]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION],

In these discussions about players from a long bygone era accuracy and reality are a dead certain casualties. Especially in Cricket. After-all who wants these pesky and stubborn things to ruin what would otherwise be a cute happy lovey dovey teary mushy story ? I have said this before and I say it again ... No other sport suffers more from this disorder than Cricket. The legend and accomplishments of these players often keep growing long after they have played their last ball or for that matter even after their passing !!

I must say though that most people don't mind this at all. Because some of these players didn't even play enough Test cricket to merit even a statistical cut-off. A lot of them never played in Asia Doesn't matter, some never played Limited overs cricket - doesn't matter. Some never played against half of the main 9 Test playing countries again doesn't matter. A lot were never truly professional cricketers like those who play today. Even better if there isn't a footage to go with the words. After-all who in their right mind would challenge ? So therefore these are all inconsequential. All that matters is the reams of accolades from old news paper articles and sports magazines that paint a very rosy picture of cricket ( with no real evidence - which goes without saying ) .

So that is the general state of affairs in Cricket. Plenty here who will be proud of their "knowledge" about accomplishments of many a obscure player from the past. Its almost a fashion statement. A matter of pride for the cricket Nerds. Like a certificate of authenticity if you will. Purest form of elitism !. You can find them reminding us unworthy mere mortals of how Sir Viv would chew out and spit out current fast bowlers like they were a bad chewing gum. Once in a while when in the mood I decide to engage with such posters and the result is often very entertaining (atleast for me as I watch them go to extreme extents to defend their heroes who they never watched nor do they care about facts . At some point it becomes a case of urban myth !).

As for why I don't follow the bandwagon ... well its a simple matter of being truthful to my own conscience. I just don't see the need or the value of believing in fiction as fact. And I totally admit that its okay to be otherwise ( hey it takes all kinds for the world to go around !! )

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION]

Great perspective man. Thank you for the post. Yes, as years go by, each ball becomes 1 km/h faster and each six goes one meter farther! That's what they say about legends! Though I genuinely loved the Clarke Story.

 

[ExpressPacer]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION],

In these discussions about players from a long bygone era accuracy and reality are a dead certain casualties. Especially in Cricket. After-all who wants these pesky and stubborn things to ruin what would otherwise be a cute happy lovey dovey teary mushy story ? I have said this before and I say it again ... No other sport suffers more from this disorder than Cricket. The legend and accomplishments of these players often keep growing long after they have played their last ball or for that matter even after their passing !!

I must say though that most people don't mind this at all. Because some of these players didn't even play enough Test cricket to merit even a statistical cut-off. A lot of them never played in Asia Doesn't matter, some never played Limited overs cricket - doesn't matter. Some never played against half of the main 9 Test playing countries again doesn't matter. A lot were never truly professional cricketers like those who play today. Even better if there isn't a footage to go with the words. After-all who in their right mind would challenge ? So therefore these are all inconsequential. All that matters is the reams of accolades from old news paper articles and sports magazines that paint a very rosy picture of cricket ( with no real evidence - which goes without saying ) .

So that is the general state of affairs in Cricket. Plenty here who will be proud of their "knowledge" about accomplishments of many a obscure player from the past. Its almost a fashion statement. A matter of pride for the cricket Nerds. Like a certificate of authenticity if you will. Purest form of elitism !. You can find them reminding us unworthy mere mortals of how Sir Viv would chew out and spit out current fast bowlers like they were a bad chewing gum. Once in a while when in the mood I decide to engage with such posters and the result is often very entertaining (atleast for me as I watch them go to extreme extents to defend their heroes who they never watched nor do they care about facts . At some point it becomes a case of urban myth !).

As for why I don't follow the bandwagon ... well its a simple matter of being truthful to my own conscience. I just don't see the need or the value of believing in fiction as fact. And I totally admit that its okay to be otherwise ( hey it takes all kinds for the world to go around !! )

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION]

Even though I love Junaids' post since it is a great read, I'm afraid I have to say this is one of the best posts I have come across on Pakpassion itself. Describes the fans of the game, which dare I say is the beauty of the sport. With every passing day, the legend gets stronger. You should post more often.

 

[Monsee]

Well, the dust is settling now on an enthralling series.

But I thought that people might be interested to learn about that apparently cuddly teddy bear of a man in the tight blue West Indies shirt.

Great read although I disagree with the following names being around the same time as others: Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh, and Patrick Patterson and probably 1-2 more as well. These guys all came around the early to late 90's when most others had already retired or were pretty much done and dusted with!

Rest of the story is good.

Now for those putting Sylvester Clark, Lille etc. pace down and attributing to additions from fans due to their attachment to the player or feelings of admiration they had towards them...Lillee had two stress fractures of the back and had to remodel his action both times. Before that he is reported to be extremely quick. When that bowling competition was held (1976-77???), he was already coming back freom the first injury (1972-73 I think) and I don't remember when his second one came around. When I saw him bowl against Pakistan in Sydney live (Courtesy special transmission by PTV) when Pakistan was required to score 32 (??) for victory and to this day that spell looked frighteningly fast and hostile, so much so that Majid had to take him on to score the winning runs because other batsmen were just scared (including Zaheer) to do so.

Also, in that competition, correct me if I am wrong, the speed was recorded from the moment it hit the pitch and not like these days where it is recorded as it is released, I think.

I have seen enough bowlers in my time including Holding and Co etc. and I can say with utmost certainty that Clark was one of the (if not the) most scary, threatening, and nasty bowler I have ever witnessed. He got nasty lift and his ball would hurry on batsmen like crazy.

Croft was also a nasty bowler with a really weird side on action and very difficult to take on. He broke that famous Majid-Zaheer partnership in 1979 WC (where they literally smacked all the bowlers around in to pulp: 180+ runs scored) and Paskitan was coasting. Rest of the batsmen fell like nine pins and we lost very quickly after both of them fell to Clark!

I spoke with Clark on the cell a few years back (a friend of mine ran in to him at a Super Market and called me to have me to talk to him), it brought back so many memories especially that WC match and the 1986 series where Clark, Croft, Holding, Andy Roberts, Garner and Co terrorized Pak batsmen in to submission, on dead but under prepared pitches

 

[muqarrab]

Clarke was fast for sure but he was just that. A one dimensional bowler whose game plan was to knock the bastman out. But i guess knocking the batsman out counts for something......

 

[moghul]

Not only POWT but POTM for me, very interesting.

Clark when toured Pakistan with WI team, left a huge impression on the followers of the game . He was big, fast, nasty, intimidating and scary. Pakistan , like in the past made dead tracks to counter West Indian fastmen but it Clark won;t care what kind of wickets he was bowing into. He was truly a shock bowler, used to bowl in short burst and his opening burst was too hot and threatening to handle for any batsman, I mean ANY in Pakistan.

In his very first over he would hit the wicket or pad in front of the wicket and many times umpires ( Pakistani ) would give one or two lives to the openers , but still no one would survive in front of the big West Indians. I remember in that tour Pakistan did everything possible to counter his opening burst but no one, even umpires could help the openers. There were so many opening combination and virtually every opener in available in Pakistan was tried and in some matches three openers ( one down also an opener ) were tried but without any success.

He was not even in first five fast bowlers in ranking for WI then. He made the touring party only because Holding, Roberts, Daniels were injured.

No touring fast bowler has ever left so much impact in Pakistan as far I remember. Marshal, Garner, Croft were also in the playing 11 but no one matched the threat and intimidation caused by Sylvester Clark to the batsmen in that tour. RIP Sylvester.

 

[Abdullah719]

Quick Question - Are they siblings ? If yes, then why the different last names?

It seems that they were half-brothers, so that probably answers both questions...

Estwick is also the half-brother of former West Indies fast bowler Sylvester Clarke.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/crick...s-fightback/story-pe2ZnzR3YuijuLfCEP3KNL.html

 

[moghul]

Great read although I disagree with the following names being around the same time as others: Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh, and Patrick Patterson and probably 1-2 more as well. These guys all came around the early to late 90's when most others had already retired or were pretty much done and dusted with!

Rest of the story is good.

Now for those putting Sylvester Clark, Lille etc. pace down and attributing to additions from fans due to their attachment to the player or feelings of admiration they had towards them...Lillee had two stress fractures of the back and had to remodel his action both times. Before that he is reported to be extremely quick. When that bowling competition was held (1976-77???), he was already coming back freom the first injury (1972-73 I think) and I don't remember when his second one came around. When I saw him bowl against Pakistan in Sydney live (Courtesy special transmission by PTV) when Pakistan was required to score 32 (??) for victory and to this day that spell looked frighteningly fast and hostile, so much so that Majid had to take him on to score the winning runs because other batsmen were just scared (including Zaheer) to do so.

Also, in that competition, correct me if I am wrong, the speed was recorded from the moment it hit the pitch and not like these days where it is recorded as it is released, I think.

I have seen enough bowlers in my time including Holding and Co etc. and I can say with utmost certainty that Clark was one of the (if not the) most scary, threatening, and nasty bowler I have ever witnessed. He got nasty lift and his ball would hurry on batsmen like crazy.

Croft was also a nasty bowler with a really weird side on action and very difficult to take on. He broke that famous Majid-Zaheer partnership in 1979 WC (where they literally smacked all the bowlers around in to pulp: 180+ runs scored) and Paskitan was coasting. Rest of the batsmen fell like nine pins and we lost very quickly after both of them fell to Clark!

I spoke with Clark on the cell a few years back (a friend of mine ran in to him at a Super Market and called me to have me to talk to him), it brought back so many memories especially that WC match and the 1986 series where Clark, Croft, Holding, Andy Roberts, Garner and Co terrorized Pak batsmen in to submission, on dead but under prepared pitches

Oh boy, that short spell by Lille at SCG was one of the scariest I have ever seen. He new he wont defend that small target of 32 runs but being a mean, nasty and intimidating fast bowler at his peak he just wants to "kill" the scared Pakistani batsmen with no helmet on. He did exactly that and Sadiq , Zaheer and Mushtaq all were running away from him two of them were happy to get out. Even 32 runs did not look too easy an target, the way lillee was bowling. But thank God, Majis was there, he was at peak of his game and has been playing every fast bowler including Lillee like playing a club level bowler. He hooked Lillee for a huge six when he thrown one to Majid to scare him. Majid saved the other batsmen and scored most of the runs 26 out of 32 in quick time.

Majid took his great form to West Indies and faced an even greater fast bowling threat with greater success. When it comes to facing the genuine fast bowling , there is no one in Pakistan history better than him.

 

[Monsee]

There is one name: Wasim Hassan Raja, Majid comes a close second in my book!

Raja, as effectionately remembered amongst fans, has the highest average against the giant fast WI team of the 70's and 80's and holds the record for hitting the most sixes in a series in the Carribean!

And when the need arrived, he could face the best of spinners as well, as evidenced by his play against Indian spinners in the 79-80 and 82-83 tours to India (I think)...sadly he never took his game seriously and was out most times trying to hit a siz to please the crowd or was under influence of substance (s) etc.

 

[AamirWarraich]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION],

In these discussions about players from a long bygone era accuracy and reality are a dead certain casualties. Especially in Cricket. After-all who wants these pesky and stubborn things to ruin what would otherwise be a cute happy lovey dovey teary mushy story ? I have said this before and I say it again ... No other sport suffers more from this disorder than Cricket. The legend and accomplishments of these players often keep growing long after they have played their last ball or for that matter even after their passing !!

I must say though that most people don't mind this at all. Because some of these players didn't even play enough Test cricket to merit even a statistical cut-off. A lot of them never played in Asia Doesn't matter, some never played Limited overs cricket - doesn't matter. Some never played against half of the main 9 Test playing countries again doesn't matter. A lot were never truly professional cricketers like those who play today. Even better if there isn't a footage to go with the words. After-all who in their right mind would challenge ? So therefore these are all inconsequential. All that matters is the reams of accolades from old news paper articles and sports magazines that paint a very rosy picture of cricket ( with no real evidence - which goes without saying ) .

So that is the general state of affairs in Cricket. Plenty here who will be proud of their "knowledge" about accomplishments of many a obscure player from the past. Its almost a fashion statement. A matter of pride for the cricket Nerds. Like a certificate of authenticity if you will. Purest form of elitism !. You can find them reminding us unworthy mere mortals of how Sir Viv would chew out and spit out current fast bowlers like they were a bad chewing gum. Once in a while when in the mood I decide to engage with such posters and the result is often very entertaining (atleast for me as I watch them go to extreme extents to defend their heroes who they never watched nor do they care about facts . At some point it becomes a case of urban myth !).

As for why I don't follow the bandwagon ... well its a simple matter of being truthful to my own conscience. I just don't see the need or the value of believing in fiction as fact. And I totally admit that its okay to be otherwise ( hey it takes all kinds for the world to go around !! )

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION]

While I do agree with the general gist of your post, cricket is not the only sport that suffers from this disease. I do think sometimes the speeds of the past fast bowlers are exaggerated, and the quality of most players pre 1950 does have to be seriously doubted, but overall I don't see anything wrong with being nostalgic and wanting to hear stories from the past.

This was a very good post from Junaids.

It is human nature to want to remember and enjoy this sort of stuff.

 

[moghul]

There is one name: Wasim Hassan Raja, Majid comes a close second in my book!

Raja, as effectionately remembered amongst fans, has the highest average against the giant fast WI team of the 70's and 80's and holds the record for hitting the most sixes in a series in the Carribean!

And when the need arrived, he could face the best of spinners as well, as evidenced by his play against Indian spinners in the 79-80 and 82-83 tours to India (I think)...sadly he never took his game seriously and was out most times trying to hit a siz to please the crowd or was under influence of substance (s) etc.

Raja was brilliant against express pace , no doubt but he almost always bated at # 6 and never faced the red cherry as Majid used to do. Majid was brilliant against likes of Lille , Thomson , And all West Indians and others.

 

[Tusker]

Great perspective man. Thank you for the post. Yes, as years go by, each ball becomes 1 km/h faster and each six goes one meter farther! That's what they say about legends! Though I genuinely loved the Clarke Story.

Even though I love Junaids' post since it is a great read, I'm afraid I have to say this is one of the best posts I have come across on Pakpassion itself. Describes the fans of the game, which dare I say is the beauty of the sport. With every passing day, the legend gets stronger. You should post more often.

Thanks for the very kind words guys. Appreciate it !

 

[EliteCynical]

It seems that they were half-brothers, so that probably answers both questions...

Ah! Thanks. Thought so. Appreciate it.

 

[Tusker]

Now for those putting Sylvester Clark, Lille etc. pace down and attributing to additions from fans due to their attachment to the player or feelings of admiration they had towards them...Lillee had two stress fractures of the back and had to remodel his action both times. Before that he is reported to be extremely quick.

watch this clip of Dennis Lillee Bowling before any injury : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVjA9vI-i18

Thats just ordinary bowling ... there is nothing express about it.

 

[Monsee]

watch this clip of Dennis Lillee Bowling before any injury : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVjA9vI-i18

Thats just ordinary bowling ... there is nothing express about it.

Lillee was playing a side game in that video, well before his test debut, you must have known that before posting the link to it? In side games, usually bowlers will not go full tilt to risk injury. Plus if you compare his action in that match versus his action in 1972 onwards, you will see quite a few differences, he graduated to becoming really fast within a year or two after this die game (it seems).

He started his test career in 1971 against England and that side had a few very good players in English side headed by Boycott; he ended up with 5 wickets in the first innings.

This is what one cricket site has for him in his profile "When Lillee came on to the international scene, he bowled with frightening pace. In December 1971 he decimated a powerful World XI side in Perth, taking 8 for 29 in the first innings, and went on to claim 31 Test wickets at 17.67 during the 1972 Ashes tour. Many believed his career was over after he broke down with spinal stress fractures the following year. However, Lillee made a famous recovery following a regime of intensive physiotherapy."


In one of my posts (above) I referenced our famous Sydney win (Imran's graduating match as a fast bowler: 12 wickets in it), in that match, Pak's winning target was only 32. Those were the most difficult 32 runs I have ever seen a team score because of Lillee bowling with extreme pace and rattling all batsmen and taking two of them out as well. It took Majid's extreme bravery and well known expertise of handling such fast bowlers that we eventually went over the line. I watched that chase live and to this day the memory is of batsmen like Sadiq, Zaheer, Mushtaq just not knowing what to do against Lillee and just trying to get to the other side quickly!

 

[Bilal7]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], what was the reason behind so many great fast bowlers emerging from the Caribbean at that specific time in history? As far as I know, the West Indies utilized spinners as their predominant bowling attack during the team's earlier days while we haven't seen that same level of skill from any of the pacers that have played for them since then.

Pakistan, Australia and South Africa; the other teams with a rich history of pace bowling have managed to keep their pace bowling standards at roughly the same level over the years but for some reason, the West Indies haven't. It isn't really about a lack of structure because even in Marshall's era, their was hardly any proper structure in place.

 

[Tusker]

Lillee was playing a side game in that video, well before his test debut, you must have known that before posting the link to it? In side games, usually bowlers will not go full tilt to risk injury. Plus if you compare his action in that match versus his action in 1972 onwards, you will see quite a few differences, he graduated to becoming really fast within a year or two after this die game (it seems).

He started his test career in 1971 against England and that side had a few very good players in English side headed by Boycott; he ended up with 5 wickets in the first innings.

This is what one cricket site has for him in his profile "When Lillee came on to the international scene, he bowled with frightening pace. In December 1971 he decimated a powerful World XI side in Perth, taking 8 for 29 in the first innings, and went on to claim 31 Test wickets at 17.67 during the 1972 Ashes tour. Many believed his career was over after he broke down with spinal stress fractures the following year. However, Lillee made a famous recovery following a regime of intensive physiotherapy."


In one of my posts (above) I referenced our famous Sydney win (Imran's graduating match as a fast bowler: 12 wickets in it), in that match, Pak's winning target was only 32. Those were the most difficult 32 runs I have ever seen a team score because of Lillee bowling with extreme pace and rattling all batsmen and taking two of them out as well. It took Majid's extreme bravery and well known expertise of handling such fast bowlers that we eventually went over the line. I watched that chase live and to this day the memory is of batsmen like Sadiq, Zaheer, Mushtaq just not knowing what to do against Lillee and just trying to get to the other side quickly!

Well the thing is Lillee was a nobody when that game was played(And it was not a side game it was a proper FC match). Meaning he could not possibly afford to "take it easy" as he was not yet a Test Player. In any case that match is famous for Barry Richards scoring a triple in a day and the usual suspects ( Chappelli , Mallet and others ) never tire of singing praises of that inninngs. And one of the things that they never forget to remind us is the "quality" of the bowling attack to Embellish the innings even more. Reality being what it usually is ( i.e Nasty and unforgiving) we now know that there is nothing extraordinary about that innings. But for the recent surfacing of that footage there was no way anyone could argue Chappelli. This is the main crux of the matter that I am trying to highlight. There is no accountability at all when it comes to such ratings and they are totally un-reliable. I have proved this time and again in my discussions with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

Also there is footage of the 8/29 that you mention in your post ... again nothing spectacular in there.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]
We often disagree, but I'm your biggest fan on this forum!

Just bear in mind that the Sylvester Clarke pace measurements are verified ones using state of the art technology.

I frequently watched him bowl 130K garbage - I mentioned that in the original post. But I also saw him bowl some of the fastest deliveries I've ever seen.

As for Lillee, I'm too young to have seen him bowl express. In the period from 1977 when I watched him he was in the 135-145 band, like Dale Steyn after around 2011.

With my own eyes, the quickest sustained spells I've ever watched - in no particular order - were Thommo, Marshall between 1981 and 1984, Waqar, Shoaib and Lee.

Oh, and a few Patrick Patterson spells, but he was even less skilful than Thommo.

The most hostile spell I ever watched was bowled by the guy with the amazing name of Patterson Thompson. But he had no skills - or control - at all, just raw pace!

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]
We often disagree, but I'm your biggest fan on this forum!

Just bear in mind that the Sylvester Clarke pace measurements are verified ones using state of the art technology.

I frequently watched him bowl 130K garbage - I mentioned that in the original post. But I also saw him bowl some of the fastest deliveries I've ever seen.

As for Lillee, I'm too young to have seen him bowl express. In the period from 1977 when I watched him he was in the 135-145 band, like Dale Steyn after around 2011.

With my own eyes, the quickest sustained spells I've ever watched - in no particular order - were Thommo, Marshall between 1981 and 1984, Waqar, Shoaib and Lee.

Oh, and a few Patrick Patterson spells, but he was even less skilful than Thommo.

The most hostile spell I ever watched was bowled by the guy with the amazing name of Patterson Thompson. But he had no skills - or control - at all, just raw pace!

Thanks for the very kind words and the feeling is mutual. You bring a very different perspective to the discussions. Its just that I beg to disagree unless I see it with my own eyes through footage. Call me a hardass but Iam yet to see anything quick from Sylvester Clarke or Marshall.

There is just no way on Gods green earth that Clarke was capable of 150K's let alone 160s unless he was drastically different in those tours where he was clocked. Gotta be erroneous equipment.

 

[Tusker]

As though right on cue there is a article on CI/CricketMonthly about Andy Roberts - another fast bowler from the 70s that has a reputation that is disproportionate to his speed. Point that out to anyone using youtube video's and ask why he looks anything but "mean", "deadly" and all sorts of such "adjectives" then all hell breaks loose.

 

[Junaids]

As though right on cue there is a article on CI/CricketMonthly about Andy Roberts - another fast bowler from the 70s that has a reputation that is disproportionate to his speed. Point that out to anyone using youtube video's and ask why he looks anything but "mean", "deadly" and all sorts of such "adjectives" then all hell breaks loose.

I've always been fascinated by Sir Andy Roberts.

I first watched him in 1975 at the World Cup in England, when he was the fastest West Indies quick, but when they returned a year later Michael Holding was clearly quicker, by a good 10K.

The unusual thing about Andy Roberts was that his second variation of the bouncer was so much quicker than the first.

I probably overestimated his pace because of that, because that quicker bouncer used to rush the (helmet less) batsman so much.

 

[Tusker]

I've always been fascinated by Sir Andy Roberts.

I first watched him in 1975 at the World Cup in England, when he was the fastest West Indies quick, but when they returned a year later Michael Holding was clearly quicker, by a good 10K.

The unusual thing about Andy Roberts was that his second variation of the bouncer was so much quicker than the first.

I probably overestimated his pace because of that, because that quicker bouncer used to rush the (helmet less) batsman so much.

Bingo !! Atlast we can agree on something. This is one of the reasons why these bowlers appear faster. The other main important aspect is their ability to play fast bowling considering that fast bowling was just emerging.