Didn't mind if I died while batting: Viv Richards on not using helmets

[MenInG]

SYDNEY: West Indies batting great Viv Richards was famous for preferring not to use a helmet. Richards faced some of the most vicious fast bowlers in the history of the game at a time when restrictions on bouncers weren't around and in a chat with former Australian all-rounder Shane Watson, the 68-year-old said that he was comfortable with the risk that came with not wearing a helmet.

"The passion for the game I felt was such that I wouldn't mind dying playing something that I love. If this is what I chose and I go down here, what better way is there to go," said Richards on Watson's podcast.
Richards also said that he felt inspired by athletes in other sports who put their lives on the line. "I have looked at other sportsmen and women who I have a lot of respect for doing it to an extreme level. I see a guy driving a Formula 1 racing car, what could be more dangerous than that?" said Richards, to which Watson jokingly replied, "Facing 150kph without a helmet?"

Richards also revealed that one of his dentists had told him to keep a mouth guard but he didn't do that for long because it didn't allow him to have his chewing gum while batting.

"One of my dentists made me a mouthpiece and all and I tried it a few times but I always enjoyed my chewing gum. You have 11 men out there and the umpires -- you felt outnumbered. And that was my little piece," said Richards.

"It made me sort of look cool, calmed me down, it gave me sort of a rhythm. That was a companion for me at the time. I made sure every time before I walked out there I had a chewing gum in my mouth. It got a bit stale if you are batting long enough but it was all good. So I did away with the mouthpiece."

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...on-not-using-helmets/articleshow/75068697.cms

 

[CricVet]

Arguably the best bat cricket has seen against fast bowling. I however doubt he would have survived against a bowling attack made of Shoaib and Lee kind of pace attack that Tendulkar faced. I have seen videos of Lillee and Thompson (live on a very few occasions). I doubt they had the menace of Shoaib and Lee. If you hear the sound of the helmet of Lara and Kirsten getting struck on the helmet, it would scare the bejesus out of you - does not matter how fast you chew the gum with all due respect.

Take a look at the video (If I am allowed to post it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvT7jBL4mvc

If he had to face this kind of bowling, either he would have been dead or wearing the helmet - He was no more of a man than these fellas in the video above.

 

[Robert]

Arguably the best bat cricket has seen against fast bowling. I however doubt he would have survived against a bowling attack made of Shoaib and Lee kind of pace attack that Tendulkar faced. I have seen videos of Lillee and Thompson (live on a very few occasions). I doubt they had the menace of Shoaib and Lee. If you hear the sound of the helmet of Lara and Kirsten getting struck on the helmet, it would scare the bejesus out of you - does not matter how fast you chew the gum with all due respect.

Take a look at the video (If I am allowed to post it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvT7jBL4mvc

If he had to face this kind of bowling, either he would have been dead or wearing the helmet - He was no more of a man than these fellas in the video above.

Thommo and peak Imran were as quick as those guys and Sir Viv wore no helmet to them.

He also faced Holding and Marshall at Shield and County level and wore no helmet then either.

 

[Junaids]

Arguably the best bat cricket has seen against fast bowling. I however doubt he would have survived against a bowling attack made of Shoaib and Lee kind of pace attack that Tendulkar faced. I have seen videos of Lillee and Thompson (live on a very few occasions). I doubt they had the menace of Shoaib and Lee. If you hear the sound of the helmet of Lara and Kirsten getting struck on the helmet, it would scare the bejesus out of you - does not matter how fast you chew the gum with all due respect.

Take a look at the video (If I am allowed to post it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvT7jBL4mvc

If he had to face this kind of bowling, either he would have been dead or wearing the helmet - He was no more of a man than these fellas in the video above.

You’re obviously unaware that at the 1975-76 Perth Test speed cameras were used which were precisely twenty times more accurate than modern speed cameras (which is why you can still rent that model for $3000 per day).

Viv Richards played that Test.

Jeff Thomson bowled the third and fourth fastest deliveries ever recorded, both 160.45 K.

Dennis Lillee also was measured at 148.54K.

For the West Indies, Andy Roberts was recorded at 159.49K and Michael Holding at 150.67K.

These tests took place 44 years ago, using equipment 20 times more accurate than modern speed measuring equipment used at cricket matches.

And still after 44 years no Test match has ever produced recorded speeds as consistently high as that Perth Test. Ever.

 

[Robert]

You’re obviously unaware that at the 1975-76 Perth Test speed cameras were used which were precisely twenty times more accurate than modern speed cameras (which is why you can still rent that model for $3000 per day).

Viv Richards played that Test.

Jeff Thomson bowled the third and fourth fastest deliveries ever recorded, both 160.45 K.

Dennis Lillee also was measured at 148.54K.

For the West Indies, Andy Roberts was recorded at 159.49K and Michael Holding at 150.67K.

These tests took place 44 years ago, using equipment 20 times more accurate than modern speed measuring equipment used at cricket matches.

And still after 44 years no Test match has ever produced recorded speeds as consistently high as that Perth Test. Ever.

IIRC Sir Viv only got hit once in internationals - by a lifter off a length from Rodney Hogg.

 

[Zaz]

Lets be honest hes very passionate about the game and i guess thats what hes trying to potray but using words such as dying, death etc on the field isnt very sensible

I guess that era was different but He shouldnt really be glamourising batting without helmets now

 

[CricVet]

I am not gonna argue with you [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]. You are entitled to your opinions. For whatever I have seen, Shoaib and Lee are the quickest and most menacing for generation X. You can argue all day long about what speed guns are most accurate. All I have seen is technology only evolving with time and as well as professions including sports.

Since the sports has evolved, bowlers added more confusion to the batsmen by mixing pace and variations which makes a big difference facing truly express bowlers.

Now, Bruce Yardley, whom I remember as no more than a support, medium pace bowler did hit Richards, as per Robert, Richards would have shrugged that off. I don't know about that incident. Richard's could not have done against a pace of many fast bowlers.

It is always a pleasure to read you guys about the past greats. We differ in opinions but I respect it. Cheers, enjoy, and be safe.

 

[CricVet]

I wish if I could edit more, but oh well, advantage and disadvantages of technology to enable me type fast via phone.

 

[Junaids]

I am not gonna argue with you [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]. You are entitled to your opinions. For whatever I have seen, Shoaib and Lee are the quickest and most menacing for generation X. You can argue all day long about what speed guns are most accurate. All I have seen is technology only evolving with time and as well as professions including sports.

Since the sports has evolved, bowlers added more confusion to the batsmen by mixing pace and variations which makes a big difference facing truly express bowlers.

Now, Bruce Yardley, whom I remember as no more than a support, medium pace bowler did hit Richards, as per Robert, Richards would have shrugged that off. I don't know about that incident. Richard's could not have done against a pace of many fast bowlers.

It is always a pleasure to read you guys about the past greats. We differ in opinions but I respect it. Cheers, enjoy, and be safe.

Thanks for the kind words - I appreciate them.

Think carefully about technology.

Jet aircraft are slower now than 50 years ago. More fuel-efficient, but slower.

In 1980 you could fly from London to New York in 3 hours 20 minutes. Now it takes 7 hours.

50 years ago man travelled to the Moon. Not any more.

Bowlers like Thomson and Lillee were full-time professionals just like Shoaib and Lee, but with a better diet and training regime than Shoaib had.

There’s a frame by frame comparison on YouTube which shows that Shoaib and Thommo were identical in speed at their quickest measured speeds.

There is really no scientific reason why bowlers in 2005 would have been quicker than in 1975. The only advances in that time were in terms of performance enhancing drugs, but clean cricketers in 2005 had no obvious advantage over their 1975 predecessors.

To return to the original point, Viv Richards faced Waqar Younis who was basically identical to Shoaib, except with better stamina.

But in Packer’s SuperTests he faced relentless pace bowling, and in West Indian domestic cricket he faced attacks like:

Barbados: Marshall, Garner, Clarke, Stephenson

Jamaica: Holding, Walsh, Patterson

 

[Saj]

The King.

My all-time favourite batsman.

Courage, class, strength, skill and attitude.

 

[CricVet]

Thanks for the kind words - I appreciate them.

Think carefully about technology.

Jet aircraft are slower now than 50 years ago. More fuel-efficient, but slower.

In 1980 you could fly from London to New York in 3 hours 20 minutes. Now it takes 7 hours.

50 years ago man travelled to the Moon. Not any more.

Bowlers like Thomson and Lillee were full-time professionals just like Shoaib and Lee, but with a better diet and training regime than Shoaib had.

There’s a frame by frame comparison on YouTube which shows that Shoaib and Thommo were identical in speed at their quickest measured speeds.

There is really no scientific reason why bowlers in 2005 would have been quicker than in 1975. The only advances in that time were in terms of performance enhancing drugs, but clean cricketers in 2005 had no obvious advantage over their 1975 predecessors.

To return to the original point, Viv Richards faced Waqar Younis who was basically identical to Shoaib, except with better stamina.

But in Packer’s SuperTests he faced relentless pace bowling, and in West Indian domestic cricket he faced attacks like:

Barbados: Marshall, Garner, Clarke, Stephenson

Jamaica: Holding, Walsh, Patterson

If you think technology has taken steps backward, majority won't agree with you. It is THE NEED that changed. If Concordes and blackbirds are not enhanced today, it is for the obvious reasons - being frugal and efficient. It is the same for reaching moon (setting all the conspiracy theories behind) - our priorities changed.

Now going back to cricket, I do not count domestic cricket hearsay about speeds. I know one thing - you never achieve the hunger to go for that extra oomph as a fast bowler in domestic vs international cricket. If Richards did face the fast bowlers of his time with skills of moderns bowlers, you keep believing it but you will not be able to convince me or others. I have seen Sylvester Clarke, Patrick Patterson, Michael Holding, and Marshall live at occasions. To my young eyes then, with the exception of Marshall, none were as Fast as Shoaib and Lee. Marshall may have been as fast as Donald or Waqar, if faster, I cannot tell.

Ambrose to me is the fastest WI bowler by naked eyes. Again, I did not have the privilege to see the bowlers you mentioned live on most occasions. As we know that fast bowlers do not always go to extreme speeds. It depends how they are feeling. There are many things that also help fast bowlers to go in over-drive, such as there state of mind, juicy pitch, feeling ambitious when they are feeling to go extra mile when sensing victory, etc. I might have missed those moments.

Today, many who missed seeing live bowling at peak of Shoaib, Lee, Flintoff, Johnson, Tait, Waqar, Donald and some I am forgetting, would argue the same way as I am with you.

Let me add one more thing, bowling fast and bowling fast with a menace also makes difference which is why I did not add bowlers like Sami. When it comes to menace, Ambrose and Marshall had the intent of hurting bats. Again, it is the matter of perceptive, Clarke was a mean looking lacking speed of Marshall.

As far as the fitness is concerned, Shoaib was guilty of not taking care of himself. Despite all of the fitness issues, he did have those spells when he looked mean - mean as any ever! Amount of cricket also caused more injuries. The rest day of test did help fast bowlers of the time ALOT.

 

[CricVet]

I forgot to mention that in my opinion, even the pre-injury Waqar was not as fast as Shoaid peak. I will never believe it. You can however debate it with someone who would like to

 

[gazza619]

You’re obviously unaware that at the 1975-76 Perth Test speed cameras were used which were precisely twenty times more accurate than modern speed cameras (which is why you can still rent that model for $3000 per day).

Viv Richards played that Test.

Jeff Thomson bowled the third and fourth fastest deliveries ever recorded, both 160.45 K.

Dennis Lillee also was measured at 148.54K.

For the West Indies, Andy Roberts was recorded at 159.49K and Michael Holding at 150.67K.

These tests took place 44 years ago, using equipment 20 times more accurate than modern speed measuring equipment used at cricket matches.

And still after 44 years no Test match has ever produced recorded speeds as consistently high as that Perth Test. Ever.

Wow that is some knowledge. I am going to try and locate some videos from that game.

 

[Junaids]

Wow that is some knowledge. I am going to try and locate some videos from that game.

There is an amazing thread on this issue of historical speeds - it’s absolutely magical to be honest!

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...h-150s-(158-159-160kph)-on-a-consistent-basis

 

[Hitman]

You’re obviously unaware that at the 1975-76 Perth Test speed cameras were used which were precisely twenty times more accurate than modern speed cameras (which is why you can still rent that model for $3000 per day).

Viv Richards played that Test.

Jeff Thomson bowled the third and fourth fastest deliveries ever recorded, both 160.45 K.

Dennis Lillee also was measured at 148.54K.

For the West Indies, Andy Roberts was recorded at 159.49K and Michael Holding at 150.67K.

These tests took place 44 years ago, using equipment 20 times more accurate than modern speed measuring equipment used at cricket matches.

And still after 44 years no Test match has ever produced recorded speeds as consistently high as that Perth Test. Ever.

Any evidence for your claim?

 

[tyron_woodley]

technology does not go backwards. sorry. There is no way in hell bowlers from the 70 and 80s era were quicker than modern pacers on the current speed radars. top fast bowlers would be fast in any era.

I have no doubt thommo bowled 145 plus on average.

However shoaib and definitely the quickest ever on average without a doubt.

Every sporting record for an athletic performance like fast bowling is broken by the newer generation unless there were ped's involved in the 80s which could explain tommo's fastest ball record.

mind you shoaib himself was caught using Peds. so.......yea

 

[Junaids]

technology does not go backwards. sorry. There is no way in hell bowlers from the 70 and 80s era were quicker than modern pacers on the current speed radars. top fast bowlers would be fast in any era.

I have no doubt thommo bowled 145 plus on average.

However shoaib and definitely the quickest ever on average without a doubt.

Every sporting record for an athletic performance like fast bowling is broken by the newer generation unless there were ped's involved in the 80s which could explain tommo's fastest ball record.

mind you shoaib himself was caught using Peds. so.......yea

A 500 frame per second camera from 1976 is still twenty times more accurate than a 25 frame per second camera from 2003.

That’s how we know beyond any doubt that:

Thomson was recorded bowling at 160.6
Roberts was recorded bowling at 159.4

If you look at athletics performances down the decades, good luck trying to argue that long-jumpers are better in 2020 than 1968, or that male or female 200 metres sprinters are quicker now than in 1988.

It’s not a matter of technology but of training, and fast bowlers were full-time professionals 45 years ago, but their fitness regimes were based upon cricket (whereas now they are mainly based upon rugby league).

To say that Thommo bowled at 145K is silly: more accurate cameras than current ones show that he was in the 160 range.

(It’s just like with aviation. The 1970’s Concorde was faster than modern aircraft but more expensive to build and operate. Modern speed cameras are twenty times less accurate but are cheaper to produce, set up and operate.)

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Gavaskar also batted without a helmet for most of his career but i never see any articles about it.
Maybe its because he was more defensive.

 

[Robert]

technology does not go backwards. sorry. There is no way in hell bowlers from the 70 and 80s era were quicker than modern pacers on the current speed radars. top fast bowlers would be fast in any era.

I have no doubt thommo bowled 145 plus on average.

However shoaib and definitely the quickest ever on average without a doubt.

Every sporting record for an athletic performance like fast bowling is broken by the newer generation unless there were ped's involved in the 80s which could explain tommo's fastest ball record.

mind you shoaib himself was caught using Peds. so.......yea

We had great tech in the past - a plane that would do 4000 mph in the early sixties, and we landed on the Moon in 1969. We had an airliner in 1975 which flew the Atlantic in two and a half hours instead of the seven hours it takes today.

I have no doubt that Thommo, pre-injury, was nudging 100 mph. The man was a freak of nature.

 

[Robert]

I am not gonna argue with you [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]. You are entitled to your opinions. For whatever I have seen, Shoaib and Lee are the quickest and most menacing for generation X. You can argue all day long about what speed guns are most accurate. All I have seen is technology only evolving with time and as well as professions including sports.

Since the sports has evolved, bowlers added more confusion to the batsmen by mixing pace and variations which makes a big difference facing truly express bowlers.

Now, Bruce Yardley, whom I remember as no more than a support, medium pace bowler did hit Richards, as per Robert, Richards would have shrugged that off. I don't know about that incident. Richard's could not have done against a pace of many fast bowlers.

It is always a pleasure to read you guys about the past greats. We differ in opinions but I respect it. Cheers, enjoy, and be safe.

I never rated Lee. He got clattered all over England in 2005 by Tres, Strauss, Vaughan etc so Sir Viv would have hit him into orbit.

 

[Robert]

Gavaskar also batted without a helmet for most of his career but i never see any articles about it.
Maybe its because he was more defensive.

He found that they restricted his vision. He wore a padded skull cap under his India cap.

Botham never wore helmets in his young day, except against WI. Openers always wore helmets then, but others didn’t against Imran and Hadlee. The first modern grilled helmet I saw was worn by Derek Pringle in 1984 vs. WI.

 

[tyron_woodley]

A 500 frame per second camera from 1976 is still twenty times more accurate than a 25 frame per second camera from 2003.

That’s how we know beyond any doubt that:

Thomson was recorded bowling at 160.6
Roberts was recorded bowling at 159.4

If you look at athletics performances down the decades, good luck trying to argue that long-jumpers are better in 2020 than 1968, or that male or female 200 metres sprinters are quicker now than in 1988.

It’s not a matter of technology but of training, and fast bowlers were full-time professionals 45 years ago, but their fitness regimes were based upon cricket (whereas now they are mainly based upon rugby league).

To say that Thommo bowled at 145K is silly: more accurate cameras than current ones show that he was in the 160 range.

(It’s just like with aviation. The 1970’s Concorde was faster than modern aircraft but more expensive to build and operate. Modern speed cameras are twenty times less accurate but are cheaper to produce, set up and operate.)

no I meant he bowled 145 on average lol. not fastest ball at 145. he probably bowled 155 plus but I feel like he was on Peds. 80s era is notorious for ped use in other sports. Why should cricket be any different.

Shoaib was also caught for roofing.

I still disagree with them.being quicker on average compared to shaoib and lee.

 

[tyron_woodley]

We had great tech in the past - a plane that would do 4000 mph in the early sixties, and we landed on the Moon in 1969. We had an airliner in 1975 which flew the Atlantic in two and a half hours instead of the seven hours it takes today.

I have no doubt that Thommo, pre-injury, was nudging 100 mph. The man was a freak of nature.

yea I don't believe that. Look at the athletic records in sprinting for example. Newer generation always break records unless the past players have access to better Peds which could've the case with thommo.

in a regulated era like the modern one I don't see thommo or anyone touching 160 again.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

He found that they restricted his vision. He wore a padded skull cap under his India cap.

Botham never wore helmets in his young day, except against WI. Openers always wore helmets then, but others didn’t against Imran and Hadlee. The first modern grilled helmet I saw was worn by Derek Pringle in 1984 vs. WI.

Yup he wore a skull cap but i saw his interview on breakfast with champions in which he said that one doctor told him that wearing nothing was more safe than wearing that padded skull cap, after that gavaskar never used that cap.

 

[MenInG]

I do wonder how many of the current generation of batsmen would dare go to bat without a helmet vs pacers?

 

[sweep_shot]

Viv was a freak. But, I don't think his method (batting without helmet) should be encourged. Not everyone can pull it off.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

My earlier memory of cricket other than wasim and waqar batting together to win a test was Vic Richards hitting 6's at will in an ODI when they were used to be live on terrestrial
Fearsome competitor, retirement has calmed him down, sort of like a reinvented George foreman

 

[Bhaijaan]

He wasn't great against extreme pace however. Neither did he have to deal with deadly reverse swing or the spin revolution of Warne/Murali.

Viv Richards would have realistically averages 45 in tests if he played in the 1990s and 37 in ODIs which still puts him among the greatest to ever play the game howeve.

He is arguably the greatest West Indian batsman ever. It's either him or Sobers.

 

[Nadeemp]

He wasn't great against extreme pace however. Neither did he have to deal with deadly reverse swing or the spin revolution of Warne/Murali.

Viv Richards would have realistically averages 45 in tests if he played in the 1990s and 37 in ODIs which still puts him among the greatest to ever play the game howeve.

He is arguably the greatest West Indian batsman ever. It's either him or Sobers.

what are you on about.

 

[tyron_woodley]

He wasn't great against extreme pace however. Neither did he have to deal with deadly reverse swing or the spin revolution of Warne/Murali.

Viv Richards would have realistically averages 45 in tests if he played in the 1990s and 37 in ODIs which still puts him among the greatest to ever play the game howeve.

He is arguably the greatest West Indian batsman ever. It's either him or Sobers.

Lara?

I agree with sobers.

 

[Junaids]

He wasn't great against extreme pace however. Neither did he have to deal with deadly reverse swing or the spin revolution of Warne/Murali.

Viv Richards would have realistically averages 45 in tests if he played in the 1990s and 37 in ODIs which still puts him among the greatest to ever play the game howeve.

He is arguably the greatest West Indian batsman ever. It's either him or Sobers.

That’s a bit harsh, because he did well in the SuperTests. And the pace in them has never been equaled.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Lara?

I agree with sobers.

Lara excluded himself from this decision when he made his team suffer through that 400 run knock. Ridley Jacobs still hasn't forgiven him.

 

[Robert]

yea I don't believe that. Look at the athletic records in sprinting for example. Newer generation always break records unless the past players have access to better Peds which could've the case with thommo.

in a regulated era like the modern one I don't see thommo or anyone touching 160 again.

Hmm. Bob Beamon’s long jump record stood from 1968 to 1991 and has only been improved upon by 5 cm since. Even now it is the second longest jump in history so humans have made 0.5% improvement in the last 52 years. Humans don’t really improve much any more, we have been close to maximum for decades. Usain Bolt was only about 10% quicker than Jesse Owens was in 1936. For these reasons I find it quite likely that Thommo and Holding were at 100 mph in the seventies.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Hmm. Bob Beamon’s long jump record stood from 1968 to 1991 and has only been improved upon by 5 cm since. Even now it is the second longest jump in history so humans have made 0.5% improvement in the last 52 years. Humans don’t really improve much any more, we have been close to maximum for decades. Usain Bolt was only about 10% quicker than Jesse Owens was in 1936. For these reasons I find it quite likely that Thommo and Holding were at 100 mph in the seventies.

unless he was on Peds which could be the case then I doubt it. I highly doubt he bowled more than 145 on average. No evidence to prove that claim. doesn't even look that quick on tv.
I bet starc bowls faster.

 

[Robert]

He wasn't great against extreme pace however. Neither did he have to deal with deadly reverse swing or the spin revolution of Warne/Murali.

Viv Richards would have realistically averages 45 in tests if he played in the 1990s and 37 in ODIs which still puts him among the greatest to ever play the game howeve.

He is arguably the greatest West Indian batsman ever. It's either him or Sobers.

He faced Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Willis, Proctor in Packer cricket and his own quicks in the Shield. Scored runs against them everywhere. Had a slight blip against Australia due to Lillee, but DK wasn’t express by then, he was a fastish cutter and swinger.

 

[Robert]

unless he was on Peds which could be the case then I doubt it. I highly doubt he bowled more than 145 on average. No evidence to prove that claim. doesn't even look that quick on tv.
I bet starc bowls faster.

Plenty of evidence, see [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] further up.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

unless he was on Peds which could be the case then I doubt it. I highly doubt he bowled more than 145 on average. No evidence to prove that claim. doesn't even look that quick on tv.
I bet starc bowls faster.

Here's the evidence
https://youtu.be/YGcZRxE3kQA
The only video evidence of the speed test in 1970s.
Dennis lillee bowling at 130

 

[Robert]

Here's the evidence
https://youtu.be/YGcZRxE3kQA
The only video evidence of the speed test in 1970s.
Dennis lillee bowling at 130

That surprises me. But this was after Thommo’s shoulder injury.

 

[Junaids]

Here's the evidence
https://youtu.be/YGcZRxE3kQA
The only video evidence of the speed test in 1970s.
Dennis lillee bowling at 130

The speed test wasn’t in match conditions: there were no batsmen and Thommo had been drinking with Packer and Singleton all morning.

The 75-76 measurements were made in-play during the WACA Test, using 500 frame per second cameras. They are definitely accurate and validated.

 

[khan_aa]

That’s psychotic. Is dying on a cricket field More important than life? Lol

 

[Robert]

The speed test wasn’t in match conditions: there were no batsmen and Thommo had been drinking with Packer and Singleton all morning.

The 75-76 measurements were made in-play during the WACA Test, using 500 frame per second cameras. They are definitely accurate and validated.

That does make sense. The bowlers would be properly revved up with adrenaline in a test match.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Plenty of evidence, see [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] further up.

there is no proof or evidence to support that claim. how did they measure the speed back then?

the moment the ball was released from the wrist or based on the time it takes to reach the keeper? or was it when it bounced off the surface of the pitch?

Many bowlers are slower when the ball bounces of the pitch btw.

And no he doesn't even look fast on TV. I don't buy it. like I said unless there were peds involved he isn't touching 159 and I guarantee he wasn't bowling over 145 on average.

 

[Indiafan]

Pretty sure those who ride bikes without helmets have the same mentality

 

[Junaids]

Just for the record, Dennis Lillee was measured twice in match conditions in 1975-76 using 500 frame per second View-Sonics equipment which is still the most precise speed measuring technology ever used in cricket.

This was after his spinal fracture had led him to replace express pace with guile.

In the first study he was measured at 148.54 K.

In the second study he was measured at 154.8 K.

The speed test referred to by an earlier poster was in the absence of a batsman and with less precise 3D measurement of distances. And he didn’t measure 130K, he was measured at 136.4 K.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

The speed test wasn’t in match conditions: there were no batsmen and Thommo had been drinking with Packer and Singleton all morning.

The 75-76 measurements were made in-play during the WACA Test, using 500 frame per second cameras. They are definitely accurate and validated.

I do not see any logic in this reasoning.
They weren't match conditions but how does that make a difference, if a bowler knows that he is giving a speed test he will obviously try his best to bowl as fast as possible.
In match conditions a bowler may not bowl at his full speed willingly(to take advantage of conditions) but in a speed test which is specially conducted with other great bowlers
why would a bowler put less effort.

Secondly as [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] said that the test was taken post thommos injury so his slow speed can be understood but what about the others lilee, holding, imran etc etc,
they are bowling in 130s (with some balls at even high 120s).
Tbf no one other than thommo is looking real fast and even if we consider that there may be a 2-3 kph or at max 5kph difference in speed i dont see how imran or holding or lillee bowled at 150.
Leave the result alone still they aren't looking as steaming fast as akhtar or lee or starc by any stretch of imagination.

Lillee at his best could be the same speed as shami same goes for imran and the hyped pace monster michael holding.
Thommo could have been as fast as starc but all those talks of 170 are just gibberish.

 

[Junaids]

Here's the evidence
https://youtu.be/YGcZRxE3kQA
The only video evidence of the speed test in 1970s.
Dennis lillee bowling at 130

I do not see any logic in this reasoning.
They weren't match conditions but how does that make a difference, if a bowler knows that he is giving a speed test he will obviously try his best to bowl as fast as possible.
In match conditions a bowler may not bowl at his full speed willingly(to take advantage of conditions) but in a speed test which is specially conducted with other great bowlers
why would a bowler put less effort.

Secondly as [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] said that the test was taken post thommos injury so his slow speed can be understood but what about the others lilee, holding, imran etc etc,
they are bowling in 130s (with some balls at even high 120s).
Tbf no one other than thommo is looking real fast and even if we consider that there may be a 2-3 kph or at max 5kph difference in speed i dont see how imran or holding or lillee bowled at 150.
Leave the result alone still they aren't looking as steaming fast as akhtar or lee or starc by any stretch of imagination.

Lillee at his best could be the same speed as shami same goes for imran and the hyped pace monster michael holding.
Thommo could have been as fast as starc but all those talks of 170 are just gibberish.

You’re not getting the context.

Everybody knew from the Gold Standard 1975-76 testing with 500 frames per second cameras precisely how quick various bowlers were in match conditions, to two decimal places (compared with one decimal place for the cheaper but less accurate twenty-first century speed cameras).

Thomson 160.6
Roberts 159.4
Holding 157.4
Lillee 154.8

The footage that you have seen is from Channel 9, and was recorded as a publicity stunt.

The cameras were less accurate.

The distances weren’t precisely measured (whereas at the WACA there was a two hour long process of triangulation before play).

The bowlers didn’t take it seriously: they were not on a proper pitch, there were no proper run-ups, no batsman!

Thomson was in the middle of a one year ban (for signing with Packer) and had already drunk half a dozen beers at Channel 9 HQ. Packer then asked him to go downstairs to lend some credibility to the bowling speed testing, but he had to borrow kit, even boots!

It was viewed by everyone as a publicity stunt: we knew precisely how quick the bowlers were in real match conditions: this was like asking Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo to stop a drinking session to go into the garden for a “who kicks the ball hardest” competition!

 

[Robert]

You’re not getting the context.

Everybody knew from the Gold Standard 1975-76 testing with 500 frames per second cameras precisely how quick various bowlers were in match conditions, to two decimal places (compared with one decimal place for the cheaper but less accurate twenty-first century speed cameras).

Thomson 160.6
Roberts 159.4
Holding 157.4
Lillee 154.8

The footage that you have seen is from Channel 9, and was recorded as a publicity stunt.

The cameras were less accurate.

The distances weren’t precisely measured (whereas at the WACA there was a two hour long process of triangulation before play).

The bowlers didn’t take it seriously: they were not on a proper pitch, there were no proper run-ups, no batsman!

Thomson was in the middle of a one year ban (for signing with Packer) and had already drunk half a dozen beers at Channel 9 HQ. Packer then asked him to go downstairs to lend some credibility to the bowling speed testing, but he had to borrow kit, even boots!

It was viewed by everyone as a publicity stunt: we knew precisely how quick the bowlers were in real match conditions: this was like asking Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo to stop a drinking session to go into the garden for a “who kicks the ball hardest” competition!

It was interesting that Imran was second in the test. He wasn't using the big leap he employed in the eighties there so I think he may have quickened up around age thirty, probably causing his shin splints.

 

[Junaids]

It was interesting that Imran was second in the test. He wasn't using the big leap he employed in the eighties there so I think he may have quickened up around age thirty, probably causing his shin splints.

Yes, I think so too.

The Imran Khan who bowled in England in 1971 was clearly a 130K pie-chucker who was more a batsman than a bowler.

Through the seventies PRIOR to Packer he had speeded up, to around 140 with his quicker ball around 145.

Packer's Supertests taught him everything. He learned from Lillee and Ian Chappell that you can't ever drop below 140K and that you need one or two balls per over in the 145-150 range to keep batsmen on their toes.

That's why Imran developed that exaggerated leap, and why from 1981 to 1983 he was irresistible around the ages of 28-30.

Imran's problem was that he then started to slow down with age after he recovered from his shin splints. By the England tour in 1987 he was back down to around 140, and it was Wasim Akram who provided the pace in the attack. By New Zealand in 1989 he was back to being a medium pacer.

 

[tyron_woodley]

You’re not getting the context.

Everybody knew from the Gold Standard 1975-76 testing with 500 frames per second cameras precisely how quick various bowlers were in match conditions, to two decimal places (compared with one decimal place for the cheaper but less accurate twenty-first century speed cameras).

Thomson 160.6
Roberts 159.4
Holding 157.4
Lillee 154.8

The footage that you have seen is from Channel 9, and was recorded as a publicity stunt.

The cameras were less accurate.

The distances weren’t precisely measured (whereas at the WACA there was a two hour long process of triangulation before play).

The bowlers didn’t take it seriously: they were not on a proper pitch, there were no proper run-ups, no batsman!

Thomson was in the middle of a one year ban (for signing with Packer) and had already drunk half a dozen beers at Channel 9 HQ. Packer then asked him to go downstairs to lend some credibility to the bowling speed testing, but he had to borrow kit, even boots!

It was viewed by everyone as a publicity stunt: we knew precisely how quick the bowlers were in real match conditions: this was like asking Neymar, Messi and Ronaldo to stop a drinking session to go into the garden for a “who kicks the ball hardest” competition!

gold standard according to who?
how were the speeds measured? the moment the ball is released from the wrist or the time it takes to reach the keeper?
how do you know the cameras were supposedly super accurate?

watch the tapes. They don't look quick whatsoever except thommo.

if the recorded speeds were accurate then I am certain peds were involved.

In the current regulated era it would be difficult to attain such speeds. Ofcourse some players could still have access to designer peds but that's a totally different topic and I don't want to delve into that.

Shoaib akthar btw was caught for steroids. Do you know that?
if anything his speeds are dubious too and he looked much quicker than any of the past greats put together.

 

[Junaids]

gold standard according to who?
how were the speeds measured? the moment the ball is released from the wrist or the time it takes to reach the keeper?
how do you know the cameras were supposedly super accurate?

watch the tapes. They don't look quick whatsoever except thommo.

if the recorded speeds were accurate then I am certain peds were involved.

In the current regulated era it would be difficult to attain such speeds. Ofcourse some players could still have access to designer peds but that's a totally different topic and I don't want to delve into that.

Shoaib akthar btw was caught for steroids. Do you know that?
if anything his speeds are dubious too and he looked much quicker than any of the past greats put together.

how the mid-70’s View-Sonics speed cameras are still the most accurate ever used in a ball sport.

They are rarely used now because they are expensive, very complicated to set up and don’t give an instant speed reading.

I don’t know if you ever watched the ABC TV show which used known stadium landmarks in Australia to try to calculate Harold Larwood’s pace? Basically a speed is invalid unless you measure out the distances before the start of play and have further connected cameras square of the wicket.

The 1975-76 WACA speed readings are not up for debate - including Thommo’s 160.45. They are a scientifically proven measurement, recorded by and confirmed by the University of Western Australia, a Group of Eight institution. They are scientific facts.

So we know what pace Richards batted against in the mid-70’s. The quickest bowler he faced had a quickest verified measured delivery of 160.60 K.

And only one ball in history has ever been recorded as faster - on a less accurate device, within the margin of error.

 

[Robert]

- how the mid-70’s View-Sonics speed cameras are still the most accurate ever used in a ball sport.

They are rarely used now because they are expensive, very complicated to set up and don’t give an instant speed reading.

I don’t know if you ever watched the ABC TV show which used known stadium landmarks in Australia to try to calculate Harold Larwood’s pace? Basically a speed is invalid unless you measure out the distances before the start of play and have further connected cameras square of the wicket.

The 1975-76 WACA speed readings are not up for debate - including Thommo’s 160.45. They are a scientifically proven measurement, recorded by and confirmed by the University of Western Australia, a Group of Eight institution. They are scientific facts.

So we know what pace Richards batted against in the mid-70’s. The quickest bowler he faced had a quickest verified measured delivery of 160.60 K.

And only one ball in history has ever been recorded as faster - on a less accurate device, within the margin of error.

We have qualitative evidence too - Tom Graveney standing forty yards back to Typhoon Tyson for instance, and the ball still going over the slips’ hands for four byes. Yet some people would tell you old Typhoon was a Broad’s pace. Broad bowls on the nice easy decks of today and maybe Tyson was on a Perth flier in that match, but you don’t see the slips forty yards back to Broad.

 

[Junaids]

We have qualitative evidence too - Tom Graveney standing forty yards back to Typhoon Tyson for instance, and the ball still going over the slips’ hands for four byes. Yet some people would tell you old Typhoon was a Broad’s pace. Broad bowls on the nice easy decks of today and maybe Tyson was on a Perth flier in that match, but you don’t see the slips forty yards back to Broad.

You’re right, but I have wondered for years how the Royal New Zealand Aeronautical College in Wellington measured Brian Statham at 142 and Frank Tyson at 146. On film they look medium paced.

And then I saw an interview with Garry Sobers, and it all fell into place.

Sobers is categorical that Statham chucked his quicker deliveries. And that is the only explanation that I can see for how Tyson was so fast. I reckon Tyson mainly bowled around 135-140, but like Sylvester Clarke he chucked his quicker balls in the high 150’s.

 

[tyron_woodley]

We have qualitative evidence too - Tom Graveney standing forty yards back to Typhoon Tyson for instance, and the ball still going over the slips’ hands for four byes. Yet some people would tell you old Typhoon was a Broad’s pace. Broad bowls on the nice easy decks of today and maybe Tyson was on a Perth flier in that match, but you don’t see the slips forty yards back to Broad.

or maybe he was just not athletic enough to keep to a medium pacer? Or maybe he was just a trash keeper with good batting skills. Fielding and athletic performances of modern players is far superior to anyone from the pre 2000 era let alone 40- 70s.

fitness standards is taken to a whole new level in the modern era. Not too many beer guts around these days. Ofcourse you get the odd few but it's not the norm.

 

[Robert]

or maybe he was just not athletic enough to keep to a medium pacer? Or maybe he was just a trash keeper with good batting skills. Fielding and athletic performances of modern players is far superior to anyone from the pre 2000 era let alone 40- 70s.

fitness standards is taken to a whole new level in the modern era. Not too many beer guts around these days. Ofcourse you get the odd few but it's not the norm.

Graveney wasn’t a keeper, he was a slipper and the point of being a slipper is to take catches. If the slip cordon needed forty yards to sight the ball, that suggests rocket speed bowling and trampoline bounce. Even if he was exaggerating and meant 25 yards that’s still further back than short third man stands to people like Anderson.

 

[tyron_woodley]

how the mid-70’s View-Sonics speed cameras are still the most accurate ever used in a ball sport.

They are rarely used now because they are expensive, very complicated to set up and don’t give an instant speed reading.

I don’t know if you ever watched the ABC TV show which used known stadium landmarks in Australia to try to calculate Harold Larwood’s pace? Basically a speed is invalid unless you measure out the distances before the start of play and have further connected cameras square of the wicket.

The 1975-76 WACA speed readings are not up for debate - including Thommo’s 160.45. They are a scientifically proven measurement, recorded by and confirmed by the University of Western Australia, a Group of Eight institution. They are scientific facts.

So we know what pace Richards batted against in the mid-70’s. The quickest bowler he faced had a quickest verified measured delivery of 160.60 K.

And only one ball in history has ever been recorded as faster - on a less accurate device, within the margin of error.

Yea but according to whom? If they aren't used in an era of advanced technology then they simply weren't good enough in the first place. Technology does not go backwards.

Newer technology is usually designed based on the platform system of the older versions with the flaws being debugged.
So no.

university of western Australia lol. Unless it's conducted by the head of sport science field for a guineas record then it's still questionable.

Even if his top speed record were to be true, he probably was on Peds when he bowled that delivery. Players in the last era dint play in a regulated environment.

Shoaib bowled 160 on Peds. So there Is absolutely no way thommo could touch those speeds. Just impossible. Especially when you factor in his frame size.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Graveney wasn’t a keeper, he was a slipper and the point of being a slipper is to take catches. If the slip cordon needed forty yards to sight the ball, that suggests rocket speed bowling and trampoline bounce. Even if he was exaggerating and meant 25 yards that’s still further back than short third man stands to people like Anderson.

yea and Anderson is a trundler though. Probably faster greener bouncier pitches more conducive to fast bowling unlike the modern flat roads.

like I said fielding level is way more advanced in the modern era.

 

[Robert]

yea and Anderson is a trundler though. Probably faster greener bouncier pitches more conducive to fast bowling unlike the modern flat roads.

like I said fielding level is way more advanced in the modern era.

Outfielding definitely - Fred Trueman never had to go tearing round the rope and dive to turn three into four having just completed a fast over. He would be at leg slip.

I doubt that catching is much improved however. Botham used to leap about taking screamers.