Do dropped catches and missed run/outs degrade the quality of an innings?

[Ab Fan]

Two major innings which comes to my mind in this decade-

1)Smith 100 vs India in Pune in a test match
2)Tendulkar 80 vs Pakistan in WC semis, Mohali

As we all know, in both the innings, the batsmen had big share of luck as there were plenty of missed chances(dropped catches, run-outs, LBW's etc).

Although at the end of the day, those two performances turned out to be what was the game-changing and game-winning performance , does the number of missed chances degrade the quality of performance?

Or would you still consider them a great inning because they led their side to one of the memorable victories despite in terms of quality, it was nowhere near?

Discuss!

 

[Aman]

They do to me.

In my mind the batsmen is starting from zero again after getting a life.

Not the same for me with run outs, just dropped catches and poor decisions.

 

[indipper]

Two major innings which comes to my mind in this decade-

1)Smith 100 vs India in Pune in a test match
2)Tendulkar 80 vs Pakistan in WC semis, Mohali

As we all know, in both the innings, the batsmen had big share of luck as there were plenty of missed chances(dropped catches, run-outs, LBW's etc).

Although at the end of the day, those two performances turned out to be what was the game-changing and game-winning performance , does the number of missed chances degrade the quality of performance?

Or would you still consider them a great inning because they led their side to one of the memorable victories despite in terms of quality, it was nowhere near?

Discuss!

After seeing him batting in 1999 test and 2003 WC ODI against PK, I dont think that I'd be caring about his Mohali adventures.


Yes do able runouts catches and halwa bowling do take the shine out of batsman's work.

 

[Aman]

I remember Mohali, Tendulkar should have been out like 6 or 7 times.

Awful innings, to get that many lives and only score 80 is poor.

 

[Protea Fan]

It do matters

Their is a lot diff bw a near flawless inngs and an inngs made with the help of some lifes

 

[Sidilicious]

They do to me.

In my mind the batsmen is starting from zero again after getting a life.

Not the same for me with run outs, just dropped catches and poor decisions.

The other side of the argument is that runs win you matches. And despite dropped catches, if a batsman scores those extremely vital runs that win you the match, then its still a match winning effort. Might not be as pleasant, but if it comes in a semi final of a WC, or in one of the most difficult pitches (Pune), they are amazing effort.

 

[Madplayer]

The other side of the argument is that runs win you matches. And despite dropped catches, if a batsman scores those extremely vital runs that win you the match, then its still a match winning effort. Might not be as pleasant, but if it comes in a semi final of a WC, or in one of the most difficult pitches (Pune), they are amazing effort.

Drop any mediocre player 4 or 5 times and he will score you that 80 in world cup semi final.

 

[Sidilicious]

Drop any mediocre player 4 or 5 times and he will score you that 80 in world cup semi final.

Its still 85 runs that helped India win the match. Mediocre or not, it still was match winning.

Also, dropping a player 5 times says more about the fielding team than the batsman.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Yes.

Because you did not deserve to score those additional runs.

However the deterioration factor is dependent on the score at which the lifeline was received. So if you are dropped at 20 and hit a 100 your knock has a higher deterioration factor but if day you were dropped on 98 and scored a 100 the deterioration factor for you is much lower.

I’m currently working on a finalising the complete formula. Will share it with humanity once my researach is complete.


To love and life,
Bhai jaan

 

[Oligochaetes]

How about reverse?

What about wrong or unfortunate dismissals which were out of control of the batsman? partner running a set batsman out, wrong lbw or caught decision, etc.

Do you consider the batsman not out?

 

[Madplayer]

Its still 85 runs that helped India win the match. Mediocre or not, it still was match winning.

Also, dropping a player 5 times says more about the fielding team than the batsman.

You are speaking a fact. I cannot dispute that those 85 runs were match winning runs.

This thread is hardly about facts. Its about a subjective opinion on whether dropped catches bring down the quality of innings. If it was about hardcore facts, then you and me shouldnt even be discussing it and the thread should be closed.

 

[Ab Fan]

Its still 85 runs that helped India win the match. Mediocre or not, it still was match winning.

Also, dropping a player 5 times says more about the fielding team than the batsman.

How would you consider Smith knock in Pune? Even that was match winning. And the fielding side was well, India only, at that time.

 

[Ab Fan]

How about reverse?

What about wrong or unfortunate dismissals which were out of control of the batsman? partner running a set batsman out, wrong lbw or caught decision, etc.

Do you consider the batsman not out?

Ofcourse No is the answer there.

 

[ftbno1]

The problem with the point is that posters use this argument to degrade players from other countries while ignoring similar innings from their own countrymen:
Falhar zaman got out on noball in CT final
Saeed Anwar was dropped a number of times during his odi 200
Sehwag 300also had dropped catches
Before neutral umpires home umpires gave big favours to home team.
Alan border said "give me two Pakistani umpires and I will win the whole world'.
Thus I would say this argument will go nowhere.
Runs on board are runs on theboard

 

[Aman]

Yes.

Because you did not deserve to score those additional runs.

However the deterioration factor is dependent on the score at which the lifeline was received. So if you are dropped at 20 and hit a 100 your knock has a higher deterioration factor but if day you were dropped on 98 and scored a 100 the deterioration factor for you is much lower.

I’m currently working on a finalising the complete formula. Will share it with humanity once my researach is complete.


To love and life,
Bhai jaan

This.

Good point brought up.

 

[Sidilicious]

How would you consider Smith knock in Pune? Even that was match winning. And the fielding side was well, India only, at that time.

It was an amazing and a match winning innings. Nothing to dispute about that. Runs are runs, however they come.

 

[Ab Fan]

It was an amazing and a match winning innings. Nothing to dispute about that. Runs are runs, however they come.

Many posters diminish this knock as well as the one played by Sachin in WC semis 2011.

 

[Oligochaetes]

Ofcourse No is the answer there.

Then why should dropped catches matter? it is not the batsman's fault that the opposition didn't take an opportunity to get his wicket. So his innings should not be penalized whatsoever.

 

[Ab Fan]

Then why should dropped catches matter? it is not the batsman's fault that the opposition didn't take an opportunity to get his wicket. So his innings should not be penalized whatsoever.

It doesn't matter much for me too. But it is not the case with everyone and ofcourse some posters do go beyong the level of hypocrisy lol.

 

[Madplayer]

How about reverse?

What about wrong or unfortunate dismissals which were out of control of the batsman? partner running a set batsman out, wrong lbw or caught decision, etc.

Do you consider the batsman not out?

There is a fundamental problem with your assessment.

Umpiring error happens both against and in favour of batsman.

Dropped catches and missed runouts happen only in his favour.

 

[Sidilicious]

There is a fundamental problem with your assessment.

Umpiring error happens both against and in favour of batsman.

Dropped catches and missed runouts happen only in his favour.

And what about poor deliveries then taking wickets? Or What about unlucky dissmisals?

 

[barah_admi]

It also depends on the type of conditions and opposition one is playing against. Pakistan were not a side that should have been so competitive against India and yet they were, subtract Tendulkar's luck, on a flat wicket and you have India getting out for less than 200 most likely. Plus 4 dropped catches is a lot.

Smith had maybe one dropped catch I think, but on top of that, he was playing on a wicket designed for Indian spinners and Indian batsmen (Who supposedly can handle spin) and yet he was the only one who looked to get a meaningful score. It's a great test innings, regardless of luck because of the factors stacked against him.

 

[Madplayer]

And what about poor deliveries then taking wickets? Or What about unlucky dissmisals?

Dont see your point. Yes, Poor deliveries taking wickets will degrade the ratings of a bowling performance.

However, Batting and bowling are two different facets of the game. Cant super impose one on the other.

 

[jnaveen1980]

To some extent yes. This is why Laxman’s 281 was such a high class innings. Not beaten no chance offered. Having said that there are some times batsmen absolutely dominate you and makes an error oppposition fails to capitalize on it. Then you can give a pass. Anwareas dropped during his 194 still a great knock.

 

[Hasan123]

Dropped catches are part of the game. For me they don't degrade the quality of an innings.

 

[Saurav]

It does.Sachin's innings was awful.Raina and Sehwag were better.Raina was my MOTM

Smith's innings was still decent considering the pitch and Indian attack

 

[babajee]

What about Fakhar’s 114

 

[WengerOut]

A batsman getting one life per innings is common. If it is more than that , then you might start considering the quality.

 

[CricFan2012]

Yes they do lower the quality of the innings

 

[Madplayer]

What about Fakhar’s 114

Obviously it wasnt as good as it would have been if he didnt provide a chance to India.

 

[Tusker]

Two major innings which comes to my mind in this decade-

1)Smith 100 vs India in Pune in a test match
2)Tendulkar 80 vs Pakistan in WC semis, Mohali

As we all know, in both the innings, the batsmen had big share of luck as there were plenty of missed chances(dropped catches, run-outs, LBW's etc).

Although at the end of the day, those two performances turned out to be what was the game-changing and game-winning performance , does the number of missed chances degrade the quality of performance?

Or would you still consider them a great inning because they led their side to one of the memorable victories despite in terms of quality, it was nowhere near?

Discuss!

Only when the batsman is Indian. Have you seen anyone else being micro-analyzed like this ? Pretty sure one of these days you will see a thread along the lines of : "Should Tendulkar have retired out after the dropped catches ?"

 

[IndianFan2018]

Only when the batsman is Indian. Have you seen anyone else being micro-analyzed like this ? Pretty sure one of these days you will see a thread along the lines of : "Should Tendulkar have retired out after the dropped catches ?"

Well said ... Use to be SRT to get so much scrutiny, now its King Kohli turn 2

Use to enjoy when SRT use to make such critics eat their own words with his awesome performances, king is continuing the legacy 2

 

[hadi123]

Missed run outs definitely not out. No question about that


I don't think dropped catches do either but that's more debatable. When you're dropped, you still need to play well to get a big score. Let's go with a recent example and look at the CT Final. Kohli was dropped by Azhar Ali. If he went on to play a match winning century to take India to the title everyone would still be saying how good of an innings it was and rightly so. He was given a lifeline when dropped but didn't take it and was out the next ball. It's how you react to the dropped catch etc as well. Some players actually get more nervous because they feel they are already giving chances whereas some play better as they have a feeling it will be their day.

 

[ManFan]

Some decade-defining innings have been due to dropped catches:
IK dropped by Gooch in 92' Final
Waugh dropped by Gibbs in 99' GS
KP dropped by Warne in Oval Test in 05'
It's a fine line between an inning being tarnished by a missed chance and it going into the record books as a defining moment.

 

[The_Odd_One]

One dropped catch is fine but if someone is dropped more than once, then I do not rate their inning much.

People mentioning Fakhar are forgetting that there is a huge difference between getting out on a no-ball and being dropped. A no-ball is not a valid delivery.

 

[Abdullah719]

Flawless innings are very rare.

It's quite common for a batsman to get one or even two reprieves.

More than than is unusual, specially in the shorter formats.

 

[giri26]

Every 100 will have some sort of a false stroke by the batsman. Here we are talking about drop catches but there are lots of shots which go in the vacant slip area in the air. So how do you classify that? Do we count that too as the bowler got a genuine edge and the batsman just got lucky as the edge flew in the no mans land. Catches will be dropped from time to time. The batsman cannot be faulted for that. He needs to be appreciated for making it count and scoring big. If we start degrading innings by the mistakes the batsman makes, then we might not have any good innings left.

For example it is general consensus among the PPers that Lara's 153 in the chase against Australia was an all time great innings. If we consider that Ian Healy dropped a regulation chance of Lara in during that innings, would it degrade one of the best 4th innings knocks of all time? No it won't. It wasn't Lara's problem that Healy dropped a regulation chance.

 

[Ab Fan]

Missed run outs definitely not out. No question about that


I don't think dropped catches do either but that's more debatable. When you're dropped, you still need to play well to get a big score. Let's go with a recent example and look at the CT Final. Kohli was dropped by Azhar Ali. If he went on to play a match winning century to take India to the title everyone would still be saying how good of an innings it was and rightly so. He was given a lifeline when dropped but didn't take it and was out the next ball. It's how you react to the dropped catch etc as well. Some players actually get more nervous because they feel they are already giving chances whereas some play better as they have a feeling it will be their day.

Very good point. At the end of the day, it is the runs put by the batsmen which matters.

 

[Ab Fan]

Only when the batsman is Indian. Have you seen anyone else being micro-analyzed like this ? Pretty sure one of these days you will see a thread along the lines of : "Should Tendulkar have retired out after the dropped catches ?"

I have seen people micro-analyzing Smith recent performance in India in the last series.

 

[Tusker]

I have seen people micro-analyzing Smith recent performance in India in the last series.

Not to the extent at which Tendulkars inngs gets ridiculed by PPers here 7 yrs after the fact. You mention 2011 S/F and bang there is someone who will remind you that the inngs does not count.

 

[Ab Fan]

Not to the extent at which Tendulkars inngs gets ridiculed by PPers here 7 yrs after the fact. You mention 2011 S/F and bang there is someone who will remind you that the inngs does not count.

Ofcourse there is a huge bias against them. Its been 7 years now since that knock and 5+ years when he retired.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Quality? yes. Importance ? No.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Well had Kohli gone on to score a century in CT final after the drop, no it wouldn't have.

I mean sure, a chance-less innings tops anything else, its a no-brainer.

But if you make it count after one life, it still speaks a lot.

But if you get 4-5 lives, it does devalue your innings. I mean everyone talks about Mohali's result but hardly anyone raves about SRT's innings because of how many chances he got.

Despite the significance of Mohali's game being much higher, I can bet people love his Centurion knock more. Because in that game, he was the boss and Pak's elite pace attack were made to look like school-boy cricketers.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You're opening a can of worms here.

There's also play and misses, only a few mm could have made the difference.

Balls hit in the air but end up in a gap instead of the fielders hands.

Being just outside the line or getting wrapped on the pads a mm too high when there is an appeal with LBW.

The list goes on and on. I've never seen a flawless innings, there are some adjustments which can help you minimise risks but there is also a lot of luck involved in batting.

The best ODI innings which was near flawless imo, Afridi V India at Kanpur. The ball was hit from the middle of the bat and went where it was supposed almost every ball until he played his first forward defence which was his downfall. And nobody rates Afridi's batting, tut tut

 

[WengerOut]

You're opening a can of worms here.

There's also play and misses, only a few mm could have made the difference.

Balls hit in the air but end up in a gap instead of the fielders hands.

Being just outside the line or getting wrapped on the pads a mm too high when there is an appeal with LBW.

The list goes on and on. I've never seen a flawless innings, there are some adjustments which can help you minimise risks but there is also a lot of luck involved in batting.

The best ODI innings which was near flawless imo, Afridi V India at Kanpur. The ball was hit from the middle of the bat and went where it was supposed almost every ball until he played his first forward defence which was his downfall. And nobody rates Afridi's batting, tut tut

Afridi's innings at Chennai 1999 is better than Smiths