Do non-Asian teams really pick oldies like Pakistan?

[Junaids]

I noticed yesterday that people were surprised when I pointed out the small percentage of Test cricketers who ever make a Test appearance above the ages of 32, 33 and 35. People tend to cite the odd exception like Misbah or Younis who has a longer Test career, and forget that for every Misbah there is an Ollie Pope and a Zak Crawley and a Dom Bess..

I think that this overvaluing of age is an Asian phenomenon, due to deference towards seniority.

I can understand why a team like Australia or India ranked in the Top Three might retain elderly players. At least they have got their team to the top of international cricket.

But I cannot for the life of me see why teams like Pakistan or South Africa or England which have a relatively large player pool (compared with micro-countries like New Zealand who can't afford to be too choosy about age) would persist with old players even though they are not highly ranked.

The benchmark that I have proposed repeatedly is that 8 players in the starting eleven should be aged between 21 and 30.

Here is today's South Africa team:

OPENERS: 33 and 26
MIDDLE-ORDER: 36, 31, 30
WICKETKEEPER: 28
ALL-ROUNDER: 22
SPINNER: 30
QUICK BOWLERS: 27, 24, 22

It narrowly misses my model of "8 players aged between 21 and 30".

So what about England? They, like Pakistan, are not in the Top Three and therefore have some rebuilding to do. here is the team which played their last Test:

OPENERS: 29 and 25
MIDDLE-ORDER: 29, 23, 22, 22
WICKET-KEEPER: 29
SPINNER: 23
QUICKS: 38, 34, 31, 23

Again, the England team has 8 players aged 21 to 30. And 3 players aged over 30.

For the sake of comparison, here is the Pakistan team which played at the Bay Oval:

OPENERS: 33 and 31
MIDDLE-ORDER: 35, 35, 31 (officially)
WICKET-KEEPER: 28
ALL-ROUNDER: 26
SPINNER: 34
QUICKS: 30, 20, 17

Pakistan had just two (yes, TWO) players in their peak years of 21 to 30. They had SEVEN (7) players in their thirties, and two (2) raw players under 21.

This was not always the case. This was the last Inzamam/Arthur Pakistan Test team, 2 years ago:

OPENERS: 29 and 23
MIDDLE-ORDER: 33, 32, 24
WICKET-KEEPER: 31
ALL-ROUNDERS: 25 and 20
QUICKS: 28, 26, 24

The Inzamam team had 7 players aged 21-30, 3 over 30 and a single 20 year old.

So to sum up:

PLAYERS AGED 21-30:
England 8
Pakistan (Misbah) 3
Pakistan (Inzamam) 7
South Africa 7

PLAYERS AGED OVER 30:
England 3
Pakistan (Misbah) 6
Pakistan (Inzamam) 3
South Africa 4

PLAYERS AGED UNDER 21:
England 0
Pakistan (Misbah) 2
Pakistan (Inzamam) 1
South Africa 0

If, like England, Pakistan and South Africa, you are not in the Top Three teams, you need to rebuild.

But how do you rebuild with OLDER players?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Oh god. Not this again

 

[Titan24]

Yes as it has been discussed previously as well that there have been two extremes involved and Pak squad selections need better balance of players taking into account different growth/development stages of their careers.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Lol Junaids is always whining about 30 something Pakistani batsmen.

If you’re good enough then you’re still young enough IMO. Look at what Hafeez is currently doing in T20s.

 

[Rana]

If we are picking Chachus in ODI and T20i cricket then it is a concern

In Test you pick your best cricketers. Age is just a number as long as you can produce performances at this level

 

[Hasan123]

Junaids does have a point about selecting too many old players but he thinks by selecting any random 21-29 player will automatically make Pakistan win a series or said player is definitely going to outperform the older player. Also Junaids will change his fantasy team every time , one day he will say select Salahudin, then he will have a bad game and he will change to say select Saud. He also does this with older players. Fawad will score, then he will say he needs to be the only older player.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Junaids does have a point about selecting too many old players but he thinks by selecting any random 21-29 player will automatically make Pakistan win a series or said player is definitely going to outperform the older player. Also Junaids will change his fantasy team every time , one day he will say select Salahudin, then he will have a bad game and he will change to say select Saud. He also does this with older players. Fawad will score, then he will say he needs to be the only older player.

Even within that, he still has favorites, I have yet to see him say anything about Shan but he’d rather Azhar was dropped - that doesn’t make sense just because of a 2 year age difference

 

[Hasan123]

Even within that, he still has favorites, I have yet to see him say anything about Shan but he’d rather Azhar was dropped - that doesn’t make sense just because of a 2 year age difference

Now that Azhar has scored he will say another 1 of the oldies needs to be dropped. He just goes rounds in circles. The fact he thinks putting 8 players between 21-29 solves everything with Pakistan cricket is worrying for someone who has watched so much cricket.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Average age of any sporting team is more important. You need a mix of youth & experience.

Can OP show the average of each team over the last decade ?

 

[wrongun]

Australia picks the odd older batsman.

And the odd random guy like "funky" Colin Miller who debuted as a bowler at age 34, played 18 Tests too.

 

[Junaids]

If we are picking Chachus in ODI and T20i cricket then it is a concern

In Test you pick your best cricketers. Age is just a number as long as you can produce performances at this level

The problem is that the SAME PERSON is not the SAME PLAYER at 20, 26 and 32, let alone 35.

I lose count of how often I am told to judge Azhar Ali by what he could do five years ago, or Mohammad Abbas by what he could do even three years ago.

So firstly there is the question WHAT CAN THIS PLAYER DO NOW ?

And secondly, Misbah's replacement of all the Under-30's in the batting line-up has really highlighted the risk of everyone ageing together.

I don't believe that the 2020 Haris Sohail is better than the 2020 Saud Shakeel.

I don't believe that the 2020 Fawad Alam is better than the 2020 Kamran Ghulam.

But Misbah keeps picking elderly players for what they used to be able to do, rather than what they can do now.

Last season Sami Aslam scored as many red ball runs as Haris Sohail has scored since 2014. And then couldn't get into a 36 man squad to tour England.

Selecting a team is a special skill. It's not just about the best eleven players NOW, it's about balance too, including age balance.

That's why in the 4 year cycle between football World Cups, coaches retire pretty much every player over 28 at the end of the last World Cup and use the next 4 years to build a team to peak 4 years later.

 

[Junaids]

Australia picks the odd older batsman.

And the odd random guy like "funky" Colin Miller who debuted as a bowler at age 34, played 18 Tests too.

He did - because in 98-99 the other bowlers were McGrath (28) , Fleming (28), Gillespie (23) and Warne (29).

 

[Kroll]

Misbah loves his oldies. It's just a fact that we have to live with. Once he's booted, we might see some development.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

I noticed yesterday that people were surprised when I pointed out the small percentage of Test cricketers who ever make a Test appearance above the ages of 32, 33 and 35. People tend to cite the odd exception like Misbah or Younis who has a longer Test career, and forget that for every Misbah there is an Ollie Pope and a Zak Crawley and a Dom Bess..

I think that this overvaluing of age is an Asian phenomenon, due to deference towards seniority.

I can understand why a team like Australia or India ranked in the Top Three might retain elderly players. At least they have got their team to the top of international cricket.

But I cannot for the life of me see why teams like Pakistan or South Africa or England which have a relatively large player pool (compared with micro-countries like New Zealand who can't afford to be too choosy about age) would persist with old players even though they are not highly ranked.

The benchmark that I have proposed repeatedly is that 8 players in the starting eleven should be aged between 21 and 30.

Here is today's South Africa team:

OPENERS: 33 and 26
MIDDLE-ORDER: 36, 31, 30
WICKETKEEPER: 28
ALL-ROUNDER: 22
SPINNER: 30
QUICK BOWLERS: 27, 24, 22

It narrowly misses my model of "8 players aged between 21 and 30".

So what about England? They, like Pakistan, are not in the Top Three and therefore have some rebuilding to do. here is the team which played their last Test:

OPENERS: 29 and 25
MIDDLE-ORDER: 29, 23, 22, 22
WICKET-KEEPER: 29
SPINNER: 23
QUICKS: 38, 34, 31, 23

Again, the England team has 8 players aged 21 to 30. And 3 players aged over 30.

For the sake of comparison, here is the Pakistan team which played at the Bay Oval:

OPENERS: 33 and 31
MIDDLE-ORDER: 35, 35, 31 (officially)
WICKET-KEEPER: 28
ALL-ROUNDER: 26
SPINNER: 34
QUICKS: 30, 20, 17

Pakistan had just two (yes, TWO) players in their peak years of 21 to 30. They had SEVEN (7) players in their thirties, and two (2) raw players under 21.

This was not always the case. This was the last Inzamam/Arthur Pakistan Test team, 2 years ago:

OPENERS: 29 and 23
MIDDLE-ORDER: 33, 32, 24
WICKET-KEEPER: 31
ALL-ROUNDERS: 25 and 20
QUICKS: 28, 26, 24

The Inzamam team had 7 players aged 21-30, 3 over 30 and a single 20 year old.

So to sum up:

PLAYERS AGED 21-30:
England 8
Pakistan (Misbah) 3
Pakistan (Inzamam) 7
South Africa 7

PLAYERS AGED OVER 30:
England 3
Pakistan (Misbah) 6
Pakistan (Inzamam) 3
South Africa 4

PLAYERS AGED UNDER 21:
England 0
Pakistan (Misbah) 2
Pakistan (Inzamam) 1
South Africa 0

If, like England, Pakistan and South Africa, you are not in the Top Three teams, you need to rebuild.

But how do you rebuild with OLDER players?

Good analysis. The real problem in Asian cricket teams is not the players declining at age 35, its that the one actually claiming to 35 is really 40+.
But Pakistan selections have really been weird as compare to India/SRL/Bangladesh.
These teams have a mix of 30+, under-20 and range of players between 21-30.
Misbah seems to be hell bent on either selecting under-20's.. or having 30+ players in his teams.
He just does not seem to get it. His idea is to let the player e.g. Abid Ali rot in domestic till age 31, and then select him as he feels he is ready. Pretty weird thinking and mindset from such a smart person.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

The problem is that the SAME PERSON is not the SAME PLAYER at 20, 26 and 32, let alone 35.

I lose count of how often I am told to judge Azhar Ali by what he could do five years ago, or Mohammad Abbas by what he could do even three years ago.

So firstly there is the question WHAT CAN THIS PLAYER DO NOW ?

And secondly, Misbah's replacement of all the Under-30's in the batting line-up has really highlighted the risk of everyone ageing together.

I don't believe that the 2020 Haris Sohail is better than the 2020 Saud Shakeel.

I don't believe that the 2020 Fawad Alam is better than the 2020 Kamran Ghulam.

But Misbah keeps picking elderly players for what they used to be able to do, rather than what they can do now.

Last season Sami Aslam scored as many red ball runs as Haris Sohail has scored since 2014. And then couldn't get into a 36 man squad to tour England.

Selecting a team is a special skill. It's not just about the best eleven players NOW, it's about balance too, including age balance.

That's why in the 4 year cycle between football World Cups, coaches retire pretty much every player over 28 at the end of the last World Cup and use the next 4 years to build a team to peak 4 years later.

What this player can do now is score 141* and 93 in the same timespan of 6 innings that Shan Masood averages 4.7.

Please don’t be selective with your statistics. It makes the average person trust stats less even though data is the most powerful thing that can be and should be implemented in Pakistan cricket right now.