Do You Find Patriotism/Nationalism Overrated?

[sweep_shot]

Do you think patriotism/nationalism is overrated?

I think patriotism and nationalism are meaningless because there are people with many different views (left-wing, right-wing, centrists, far-left, far-right etc.).

What I think is good for my country may not be shared by my own people (and vice versa).

We are all individuals with individual objectives.

 

[Major]

Hard to say, I dont find myself being patriotic anymore as it view it as being born in a country just because my parents lived there.

But than same theory gets applied when we used to the concept of family. Thus why should one have any relations with their family members. Recently, when i met my family members on eid, i kept on thinking, that if I was not born in this family, these very same people that were greeting me wouldn't be even talking to me.

Funny concept.

However, having a country gives you an identity and protection of somewhat. Recently, i studied about Rohingyan Muslims, the Rwanda incident, Kashmir, and other ethnical issues that exists in Africa and Middle East

I realized that many of us take patriotism for granted. We dont love our nation only because we are not in danger due to our ethnicity, but there are countries in the world where ethnic cleansing goes on and you end up finding them no country to protect them. We seriously over look the protection a country provides us. No matter how corrupt or lawless it is, but if you are not suffering from ethnic cleansing or under the rule of another country (India over Kashmir), you are blessed with the country's protection.

We just cant see it, it is not tangible, thus we develop such thoughts.

I am still trying to understand this concept. I think, we start to feel less patriotic or lose the love for our country when the country we used to love fails to live up to the ideals we set.

I always wished to see the Canadian society exists in Pakistan. I wished that we all were treated as citizens, the govt did its job, the garbage was picked up from the curb, there wasnt major difference in income levels etc etc.

But when the idealism fails, we maybe start to lose respect and love for our country..

I for one have accepted Pakistan is not gonna change no matter what. The subcontinent and the people of subcontinent are cursed sadly

 

[sweep_shot]

Hard to say, I dont find myself being patriotic anymore as it view it as being born in a country just because my parents lived there.

But than same theory gets applied when we used to the concept of family. Thus why should one have any relations with their family members. Recently, when i met my family members on eid, i kept on thinking, that if I was not born in this family, these very same people that were greeting me wouldn't be even talking to me.

Funny concept.

However, having a country gives you an identity and protection of somewhat. Recently, i studied about Rohingyan Muslims, the Rwanda incident, Kashmir, and other ethnical issues that exists in Africa and Middle East

I realized that many of us take patriotism for granted. We dont love our nation only because we are not in danger due to our ethnicity, but there are countries in the world where ethnic cleansing goes on and you end up finding them no country to protect them. We seriously over look the protection a country provides us. No matter how corrupt or lawless it is, but if you are not suffering from ethnic cleansing or under the rule of another country (India over Kashmir), you are blessed with the country's protection.

We just cant see it, it is not tangible, thus we develop such thoughts.

I am still trying to understand this concept. I think, we start to feel less patriotic or lose the love for our country when the country we used to love fails to live up to the ideals we set.

I always wished to see the Canadian society exists in Pakistan. I wished that we all were treated as citizens, the govt did its job, the garbage was picked up from the curb, there wasnt major difference in income levels etc etc.

But when the idealism fails, we maybe start to lose respect and love for our country..

I for one have accepted Pakistan is not gonna change no matter what. The subcontinent and the people of subcontinent are cursed sadly

Good post.

You are right about ethnic cleaning part. But, you also have people oppressing other people from same ethnicity.

I think nationalism/patriotism is only meaningful if all people are on the same page (which is generally not the case).

 

[Itachi]

I don't think it's overrated. In the same notion, the dedication towards your religion is overrated since they basically follow the same principle of giving you an "identity". Without this identity, humans will be lost and will fail to co operate due to lack of common ground.

Nationalism is just one medium to achieve this. And this identity isn't optional but necessity.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't think it's overrated. In the same notion, the dedication towards your religion is overrated since they basically follow the same principle of giving you an "identity". Without this identity, humans will be lost and will fail to co operate due to lack of common ground.

Nationalism is just one medium to achieve this. And this identity isn't optional but necessity.

No one mentioned religion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nationalism or patriotism are fine as long as there are good core values underpinning them. What we see across the world is that the best countries share some of the same values and one of the most important of these in my view is valuing your own citizens and trying to make their lives better.

 

[sweep_shot]

I don't think it's overrated. In the same notion, the dedication towards your religion is overrated since they basically follow the same principle of giving you an "identity". Without this identity, humans will be lost and will fail to co operate due to lack of common ground.

Nationalism is just one medium to achieve this. And this identity isn't optional but necessity.

I think religious identity is much more solid than national identity.

Only real purpose of nationalism/patriotism is perhaps protection.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It depends.

If you are from a beautiful country then its certainly not overrated to take pride in it.

If you are an Indian then yes its overrated.

 

[Itachi]

I think religious identity is much more solid than national identity.

Only real purpose of nationalism/patriotism is perhaps protection.

Because you are a Muslim, the religion will give you much more identity (as a Muslim) than nationality.

But same doesn't hold true for non religious person or athiests. Since religion doesn't hold significance, neither does the religious identity. It's the nationality that gives them the solid feeling that you get (in your case) in religion.

Hence there is no concrete answer to this. It depends upon what your preference are. For some nationality will take more precedence than anything, for others it won't.

The right, left, far right or far left is just different paths to achieve the same. Pursuing different path doesn't mean the principle becomes different.

 

[Technics 1210]

No one mentioned religion.

Indeed, but one living in India can be forgiven for thinking religion equates to nationalism/patriotism because a right-wing religious party is in power. The propaganda is strong though when Atheists defend religion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Some Hindu atheist posters are like bloodhounds when it comes to smelling out religion, even if no mention of it has been made, especially if the religion they are sniffing for is Islam.

 

[Major]

Good post.

You are right about ethnic cleaning part. But, you also have people oppressing other people from same ethnicity.

I think nationalism/patriotism is only meaningful if all people are on the same page (which is generally not the case).

National identity plays a part in nation building, and often whete ethnic cleansing takes place that is because national identity has been build where one group isnt included.

This is what i feel we ended up doing with the bengalis.

You are right, for patriotism to exists you need all the ethnicities to come under one banner.

 

[JaDed]

Well it is important.. due to current world order and human thought process but in future if we have inter- planetary migration it might not be required.

 

[sweep_shot]

You are right, for patriotism to exists you need all the ethnicities to come under one banner.

If people are divided like it is in USA, being patriotic/nationalist can become challenging.

For example, my personal values are conservative. But, if there is a liberal government and most people are liberals, I have no incentive to be a patriot/nationalist.

It is dependent on whether or not you are in sync with the majority.

 

[JaDed]

If people are divided like it is in USA, being patriotic/nationalist can become challenging.

For example, my personal values are conservative. But, if there is a liberal government and most people are liberals, I have no incentive to be a patriot/nationalist.

It is dependent on whether or not you are in sync with the majority.

Wrong example, USA has an amazing federal structure, if you are a conservative you can move to conservative States.

There is a huge difference between California/NY and Texas/Tennessee (politically).

 

[sweep_shot]

Wrong example, USA has an amazing federal structure, if you are a conservative you can move to conservative States.

There is a huge difference between California/NY and Texas/Tennessee (politically).

United States is currently very divided. It is not about specific states. I was saying overall.

 

[wasim-fan]

Most Isms or identities acquired through accidental birth in a certain setting are hindrance when one is seeking clarity of perception. If one wants clarity, all identies should be kept at distance.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Regardless of religion/lack of, left or right wing politics, there are some things all people should want to see in their country in order to be patriotic. Law and order, and public anathema for dishonesty, whether it's a politician, policeman or someone overcharging for a bag of apples. In third world countries that is not as easy to achieve, I do realise that.

 

[JaDed]

United States is currently very divided. It is not about specific states. I was saying overall.

Are you living here or your perception is based on News? Americans are extremely patriotic whether they are Liberals or conservatives,I can tell you Canada is more divided based on news, check the provinces that want to cede in Canada and you would surprised to know Alberta, Saskatchewan , Quebec and the percentage that want that.
Most American states want to be prt of the union inspite of having a history of civil war.

Hell Quebec has Hijab and turbans banned in government jobs such crappy laws would be chucked out in US.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Are you living here or your perception is based on News? Americans are extremely patriotic whether they are Liberals or conservatives,I can tell you Canada is more divided based on news, check the provinces that want to cede in Canada and you would surprised to know Alberta, Saskatchewan , Quebec and the percentage that want that.
Most American states want to be prt of the union inspite of having a history of civil war.

Hell Quebec has Hijab and turbans banned in government jobs such crappy laws would be chucked out in US.

I have always somewhat admired USA's dedication to their constitution. Whether you agree with it or not, there is something noble about having it laid out so clearly. I was thinking about this in the discussion about the right to bear arms in the child massacre thread.

 

[JaDed]

Regardless of religion/lack of, left or right wing politics, there are some things all people should want to see in their country in order to be patriotic. Law and order, and public anathema for dishonesty, whether it's a politician, policeman or someone overcharging for a bag of apples. In third world countries that is not as easy to achieve, I do realise that.

West is not perfect either.. they have similar issue but the threshold is lower due to better literacy.

There are enough issues with lobbying in Western Nations, heck some of the laws in Quebec , France, Switzerland and mobilizing masses based on hate seems to pretty visible in Europe now. Even Scandinavia has started to show cracks

Trump family is almost like Shariffs.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Patriotism is extremely important. For a bunch of people from different ethnic backgrounds, speaking different languages and following different religions, it becomes even more important to have a common love for something to bond over.

Without patriotism, a nation cannot survive. It will simply be taken over by enemies.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Are you living here or your perception is based on News? Americans are extremely patriotic whether they are Liberals or conservatives,I can tell you Canada is more divided based on news, check the provinces that want to cede in Canada and you would surprised to know Alberta, Saskatchewan , Quebec and the percentage that want that.
Most American states want to be prt of the union inspite of having a history of civil war.

Hell Quebec has Hijab and turbans banned in government jobs such crappy laws would be chucked out in US.

Liberals are being taught to hate America. They are not proud of USA and they constantly bring out its past slavery to put every hero of the nation down.

What America always stood for is what liberals hate now. I myself am a liberal and I can see the far left narrative engulf historic liberalism.

 

[JaDed]

I have always somewhat admired USA's dedication to their constitution. Whether you agree with it or not, there is something noble about having it laid out so clearly. I was thinking about this in the discussion about the right to bear arms in the child massacre thread.

Well guns are an issue but there is a history to why they will never get rid of that law, the citizens never trust authority here based on who is in power that is something that weirdly unites majority of Americans their distrust of government.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

West is not perfect either.. they have similar issue but the threshold is lower due to better literacy.

There are enough issues with lobbying in Western Nations, heck some of the laws in Quebec , France, Switzerland and mobilizing masses based on hate seems to pretty visible in Europe now. Even Scandinavia has started to show cracks

Trump family is almost like Shariffs.

I know they aren't perfect, but in western countries they put their own people first. I like that. They would never have allowed foreigners to come and bomb their population like in former Pak administrations.

 

[JaDed]

Liberals are being taught to hate America. They are not proud of USA and they constantly bring out its past slavery to put every hero of the nation down.

What America always stood for is what liberals hate now. I myself am a liberal and I can see the far left narrative engulf historic liberalism.

That situation is in all the countries and they are not that high in number if not Sanders would be in power not Biden.

Also Liberal as in Democratic Left? They are the only “Liberals” in America.

Libertarians are also Liberal socially.

 

[Champ_Pal]

That situation is in all the countries and they are not that high in number if not Sanders would be in power not Biden.

Also Liberal as in Democratic Left? They are the only “Liberals” in America.

Libertarians are also Liberal socially.

The old generation are still classic liberals. I am one among them though I am not that old. Its the millennials and Gen Z that are the problem. They all lean towards far left and socialistic ideas.

 

[JaDed]

I know they aren't perfect, but in western countries they put their own people first. I like that. They would never have allowed foreigners to come and bomb their population like in former Pak administrations.

Yes that’s fair..TBF most Asian countries including Iran , Nepal, India and China are wary of western bases because of that.

Although it did help countries like Japan, Thailand and Korea though..but yea they wouldn’t allow the bombing..

 

[JaDed]

The old generation are still classic liberals. I am one among them though I am not that old. Its the millennials and Gen Z that are the problem. They all lean towards far left and socialistic ideas.

I’m with you on this but i do Gen Z is smarter than Millennials.

 

[Robert]

Do you think patriotism/nationalism is overrated?

I think patriotism and nationalism are meaningless because there are people with many different views (left-wing, right-wing, centrists, far-left, far-right etc.).

What I think is good for my country may not be shared by my own people (and vice versa).

We are all individuals with individual objectives.

We can also be part of a collective with collective objectives. Be that an employer, a football team, or a nation state.

I am a British patriot by birth and an Irish patriot by treaty. I love reading the history and cultural contributions of both countries. Britain’s scientists, philosophers, musicians, writers, and development of liberal thought and democratic institutions which freed up so many people. Her defence of these principles in WW2 when the whole of Europe and Asia was falling to totalitarianism. Her role in setting up the postwar liberal order which are the pillars of peace - the UN, GATT, Council of Europe.

I am proud of Ireland’s magnificent literary tradition. You might justifiably call me a plastic Irishman, but I am exploring that part of my identity.

I am proud of the Celtic Tiger stimulated by EU membership which brought Ireland up to First World status.

I am inspired by the Good Friday Agreement between the two nations that brought 75 years of conflict to a close.

But I am also an internationalist, because nationalism starts wars. So I must also consider the dark side of British history - the development of white supremacy, colonialism and slavery. In the same way as I try to become a better person by considering my own negative impulses, I must consider the abuses of British history. But I’m still a patriot because of the good things about Britain.

 

[Robert]

If people are divided like it is in USA, being patriotic/nationalist can become challenging.

For example, my personal values are conservative. But, if there is a liberal government and most people are liberals, I have no incentive to be a patriot/nationalist.

It is dependent on whether or not you are in sync with the majority.

I lost a lot of faith in the people of the USA when they chose to elect Trump - a man with no political skills or desire to serve - merely a narcissist who is a good salesman.

But then UK did the same with Johnson.

People on both sides of the Atlantic have got intellectually lazy, and fall for populists with simplistic slogans. It’s taking them a while to realise that the populists have no answers to social problems and are just out for themselves.

Ukraine gives me hope though - a patriotic people standing up for their new-found liberalism and democracy, firstly against corrupt leadership then against an invading foreign despot.

 

[Robert]

Liberals are being taught to hate America. They are not proud of USA and they constantly bring out its past slavery to put every hero of the nation down.

What America always stood for is what liberals hate now. I myself am a liberal and I can see the far left narrative engulf historic liberalism.

Shouldn't USA confront the darkness in its history? No person is entirely good or bad. Founding Fathers Washington and Jefferson kept slaves. They were liberators - of white people. They just didn't finish the liberation job. The 3/5 compromise was the best that Jefferson could do at the time.

It's not putting them down to recognise this. Lincoln built on their work, then LBJ went further still.

 

[sweep_shot]

People on both sides of the Atlantic have got intellectually lazy

This part is very true.

This is one of the primary reasons why western civilization is perhaps declining.