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Do you work beyond office-hours and not paid overtime?

MenInG

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Seems that in Covid-19 times, this is becoming the norm. Could be that employers are realizing that employees have less options due to the current economic climate.

But 2 questions

Is it Ethical to ask someone to work after office hours?

Or, is this just the way it is now - we better get used to it?
 
its definitely happening, i know people who are having zoom meetings cross continent at 11pm. no way would that happen pre covid times.

ive always thought its ok if it works both ways, sometimes u get paid but really dont have anything to do, so if u are working an hour or two extra a day its fine if u leave an hour or two early sometimes when u have nothing to do.

also it depends on how u r compensated, bonus, commission, etc compensates for working extra, if u arent getting that then i dont see any reason u should work longer than your contracted hours.
 
Work/life balance is important to me.

If I had an employer who expected me to put in extra hours for nothing I would tell them to stick their job where the sun doesn't shine.

You do this once or twice, they keep expecting it.

Nobody has to do this, no matter how important they feel they are for their employer.
 
I strictly dont work beyond 8-9 hours . Ideally I would want to log off by 5PM, but thats impossible when you work with people in NA. So I block my calendar between 3:00-5:30 for personal time and attend meetings which usually runs up to 8PM .

We dont pay overtime, but we also dont encourage employees to work beyond 8-9 hours. That said, this was much easier to follow pre-covid.
 
I will only work for the time Im paid for.

No point slaving to make more profits unless you get a bonus from profits.
 
I have had the opposite experience, we have some in US who tend to work long hours but Germans wont stretch even if my CEO asks them to.
We do work longer hours but generally we almost always take our full allotment of vacations.

I’m always baffled when I see junior people in US team only taking 3-4 days off in a year some times
 
Lol in the world of accounting especially public accounting, you can forget about being paid over time
 
Been working from home in corporate America for several years now. There are weeks when you do work extra hours with no pay, and there are weeks when you are relaxed. If the employer is good, he knows it and he values it.

If the perks are good, you like your work and your employer values you AND your work, then one needs to be flexible to reap the rewards in the long run.

Being uptight about strictly working 9 to 5 is our right and we should use it but we should always be open to identify a give n take situation, if there is one, and make the best use of it.
 
Been working from home in corporate America for several years now. There are weeks when you do work extra hours with no pay, and there are weeks when you are relaxed. If the employer is good, he knows it and he values it.

If the perks are good, you like your work and your employer values you AND your work, then one needs to be flexible to reap the rewards in the long run.

Being uptight about strictly working 9 to 5 is our right and we should use it but we should always be open to identify a give n take situation, if there is one, and make the best use of it.

Depend on the industry you work in and the rewards associated with it.
 
I once adopted a 9-5 attitude when working for an employer who was running an accounting practice. Got called in two weeks before I was brutally fired and received a politely spoken warning and a tip that if I wanted to remain in any employers good books, I should offer my services above and beyond just my job description, think of ways of how I should help my employer at all times and that if I continued to just adopt the 9-5, 5 days a week attitude then that was my choice but my choices would be noted by him.

After that I changed up and began working over time and longer hours. Didn't make much of a difference as tax season ended 2 weeks later and the first day after tax season is over when I go into work, I get stopped by the receptionist and am told to wait for my boss to come out of his office. He comes out, I say hello, he chooses not even to respond to the greeting and just tells me to follow him, I follow him to a boardroom where I see a female sitting, I thought maybe she was a client.

So my boss politely tells me to please take a seat, and when I sit down, he tells me, your employment as of now is being terminated effective immediately, she will explain all the details to you, thank you for your service. He then quickly gets up, storms out of the room, brisk walks to his office, slams his door shut while I am sitting shell shocked, heart beat racing at a rapid rate trying to figure out what the hell just happened, absolutely humiliated.

It took me like a good 4-5 minutes to get my bearing. I then discovered that the woman was his lawyer and she presented me some documents where he offered me a week's pay in severance in exchange for accepting the termination and not challenging the decision or otherwise I get absolutely nothing.

I was very bitter, hurt by this experience and even more annoyed that the guy refused to give me one final meeting with feedback, take my phone calls or answer my emails when I just needed him to sort out a few formalities. I feel when you terminate someone you should show some balls and atleast have the guts to speak to him one final time and even explain the decision to him face to face and do it yourself rather than hide behind your lawyer.

This episode and encounter affected me so badly, it affected my confidence, mindset where I felt that the whole thinking and thought process that goras are more humane, kind employers compared to desis is just a cliché more than anything.

It took me a while before I dared to reapply to another accounting firm again, I was that badly scarred. I Infact wanted to explore alternative options and even came back home to Pakistan for a few months where I attended my mom's retirement ceremony, my grandfather's funeral, went for Hajj, worked in real estate in my friends property management business for two months as an experiment to see if it is something I could do or not and finally I decided to return back to Canada after pleas for my parents to not give up on my accounting education, career and to let the bad experience go.

I came back to Canada and was able to secure 5-6 interviews and got offered a position at a large mid sized firm where I stayed for 3 years, I passed my CFE exam, worked long hard brutal hours but also enjoyed working in a nice, pleasant collaborative environment where atleast no one was watching over your shoulder and micro managing you. I was let go by them as a result of the Covid pandemic but I also suffered in the end because my boss commented to me that by the end he felt I was no longer as hungry as I was when I first joined the firm, when I asked why he felt that way, he was like you no longer work the same hours or over time as you did in your first two years. I told him sorry you feel that way but the reality was that this guy was getting paid $300,000 plus a year while I was still stuck at an entry level salary and I got sick and tired of putting in the hours, time and not getting rewarded for it.

Within a few days of serious applying I got into kpmg.

Anyways bottom line is that the people who are talking about just adopting a 9-5 attitude need to understand that every field is different and in accounting, law if you adopt a 9-5 attitude it will be badly noted against you. If you really want to make it to the top, you will have to pay your dues, take on the stress, make sacrifices, put in the time
 
To be honest, in the financial sector, there are lots of days in a year when one can only afford to go home to sleep for a few hours. At the end of the day it depends on what motivates someone to work in the sector: for some it's money, others it's prestige and authority; while some love the distraction of working long hours.

One has to be flexible about the number of hours they put in or accept that the industry is not for them and change careers. Anyone putting on airs about the number of hours they work will not last very long.
 
Seems that in Covid-19 times, this is becoming the norm. Could be that employers are realizing that employees have less options due to the current economic climate.

But 2 questions

Is it Ethical to ask someone to work after office hours?

Or, is this just the way it is now - we better get used to it?

Well, in Hong Kong, you are expected to stay at work after working hours even if it is for half an hour. If you leave right on the dot, people will give you stares and they will regard you as being lazy and uncommitted. Almost everybody does OT here without any pay; it is a part of our working culture.

Another aspect is that a lot of people here are single and live alone so they have nothing to look forward to at home and they do not really have a social life. A recent survey revealed that Hong Kong has the longest working hours.
 
I have had the opposite experience, we have some in US who tend to work long hours but Germans wont stretch even if my CEO asks them to.

I agree, that’s also my observation (and i ve lived and worked in Germany for 10 yrs). Germans are normally very strict and robotic abt their work life balance.

Uberzeit ohne Vergütung gehts leider nicht!
 
Work for a contractor in the construction industry. 6 days a week and minimum of 10 hours each day.
sometimes I wonder what it would be like to have Saturdays off. My fridays (off days) are sometimes more busier than workday due to the piling personal works.
 
I will only work for the time Im paid for.

No point slaving to make more profits unless you get a bonus from profits.

Surely there has to be more to life than killing yourself for a bonus.
 
Depend on the industry you work in and the rewards associated with it.

Well nobody is forced to work in any industry. It's a choice.

It's up to an individual where they work and for who.
 
Well nobody is forced to work in any industry. It's a choice.

It's up to an individual where they work and for who.

You are being very simplistic here. Firstly, it is not wise to leave your industry, career to start again from square 1. Secondly, one may not have the vision that their job, industry is busy when at university. Lastly, grass is always greeners at the other end.
 
Surely there has to be more to life than killing yourself for a bonus.

depends on personal goals and the size of the bonus. i got good bonuses for a few years which really helped my financial security. early in your career working overtime isnt bad, as u are also learning a lot, so your getting non-monetary returns too. i dont regret any of that extra time i spent.

if your employer insists on it without paying out bonuses then that is unacceptable. fwiw ive always been willing to work a few long days a month on the implicit understanding that i can not come to work on short notice, or leave early i have to every now and again.

fundamentally it comes down to whether you have a long term plan for your career. if your working 9 to 5 as a job i dont see any point of killing yourself for 10% extra.
 
You are being very simplistic here. Firstly, it is not wise to leave your industry, career to start again from square 1. Secondly, one may not have the vision that their job, industry is busy when at university. Lastly, grass is always greeners at the other end.

And to add, 9-5 is a relic of a bygone era. And so is only working If you get paid for extra hours. There are lots of other ‘perks’ that not directly monetised are worth more - the ability to work from home without prejudice etc. And then there is the progression aspect - like it or lump it, if you want to get ahead, you need to stand apart - and part of that is what you’re prepared to do extra/stand apart from your peers.

And this is where perspective matters. If this is a means to an end, a short term sacrifice for a longer term and consistent gain - it’s a good investment in oneself. If it’s a never ending circle, then it might not be the right fit for you.
 
I think the typical 9-5 day is a thing of the past. We've moved beyond that and we don't work in factories anymore which requires the need to be dynamic. This is a quality that mot employers look for now. We don't get paid for our time we get paid for the work we do.

Personally, for me, there are days when I don't work at all and just maybe login for an hour or two to go through emails and then there are days when I have to work 15 hours. Just because one has to work overtime one day or on a particular project does not mean that it impacts work/life balance.

I think the mindset of 9-5 is of the older generation. I love my work/life balance. In fact, on average I'm probably working less than 8 hours a day but the main thing is that as long as I'm doing what is required of me no one cares whether I put in 2 hours or 20 hours because that doesn't really matter.
 
You are being very simplistic here. Firstly, it is not wise to leave your industry, career to start again from square 1. Secondly, one may not have the vision that their job, industry is busy when at university. Lastly, grass is always greeners at the other end.

I think you are having difficulty understanding the point some are making. Nobody is saying start from square one.

You can never see how green the grass is until you try it. Sometimes it will work out, other times it won't. That's life.

What irks me are those that complain about their jobs, yet don't want to look elsewhere or try something different.
 
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Seems that in Covid-19 times, this is becoming the norm. Could be that employers are realizing that employees have less options due to the current economic climate.

But 2 questions

Is it Ethical to ask someone to work after office hours?

Or, is this just the way it is now - we better get used to it?

No one should endure such a thing, it is unethical doesn't matter the scenario.
If someone forces me to do such a thing I'd simply quit within a second.
 
Surely there has to be more to life than killing yourself for a bonus.

I'd rather not work at all. :asadrauf

But Ive seen work life for some is more than just work. Some people dont have a social life, not much family or friends. Work is a time for them to meet their friends, socialise too.

Others stress so much due to workload or worry of losing their jobs if they feel their bosses are not happy with them. Then there are others , who are pressured to work harder, longer for nothing extra, perhaps at times sort of bullying by their boss.

People should work hard for what they earn but also remember they are easily expendable too.
 
Why would the employer want you to work beyond office hours? What has changed apart from that you work mainly from home? I mean if you worked from 08:00-16:00 pre-covid, you still do that when you are at home.

I personally love the flexibility of home office. You can run small errands (?) during office time and then just work the missed time later on. I have 7,5 hours day included 30 minutes lunch so if I get up early and start working from 07:00, I am done by 14:30. And during the month end closing I work some hours extra, but then overtime is paid.

And if the employer ask you to work over-time the rules of over-time apply, at least her in Norway. So nothing much have changed.
 
I hate the seniors who expect their subordinates to work like crazy and pity the fools who work like crazy and get nothing in return.

In corporate world, never put your career above your family. We can work like a donkey and be very productive. But we can always get fired mercilessly. Be smart and work only as required within the working hours.
 
Why would the employer want you to work beyond office hours? What has changed apart from that you work mainly from home? I mean if you worked from 08:00-16:00 pre-covid, you still do that when you are at home.

I personally love the flexibility of home office. You can run small errands (?) during office time and then just work the missed time later on. I have 7,5 hours day included 30 minutes lunch so if I get up early and start working from 07:00, I am done by 14:30. And during the month end closing I work some hours extra, but then overtime is paid.

And if the employer ask you to work over-time the rules of over-time apply, at least her in Norway. So nothing much have changed.

You work extra to prove that you are contributing even when you are working from home.
 
For context, I am a middle manager.

I used to do the working over thing — first secretly, at the start of my career when I was still learning to manage my time, so it felt necessary to avoid going on performance measures — then after I got more on top of things I realised that I was still doing it, only visibly this time, and apparently to impress.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that it was a mostly thankless crusade and not worth it. It damaged my mental health over the course of two years and it was only rewarded with an extra 2.5% bonus compared with others in the end. So I took the money, said thank you very much, then the next day I put my foot down very firmly about it — and now I don’t work over anymore.

(And nowadays, having kids, I don’t think I would be able to do much more than the mandated 40 hours anyway.)

If anything, I have been more in favour for prestige tasks and my opinions / outputs have been more respected by our senior leadership since I stopped being viewed as one of the keen-as-mustard / whipping boy types. After 6PM, everything gets turned off, and work stays at work.
 
I hate the seniors who expect their subordinates to work like crazy and pity the fools who work like crazy and get nothing in return.

In corporate world, never put your career above your family. We can work like a donkey and be very productive. But we can always get fired mercilessly. Be smart and work only as required within the working hours.

Sensible thinking and approach.
 
Eventually I came to the conclusion that it was a mostly thankless crusade and not worth it. It damaged my mental health over the course of two years and it was only rewarded with an extra 2.5% bonus compared with others in the end. So I took the money, said thank you very much, then the next day I put my foot down very firmly about it — and now I don’t work over anymore.

Another sensible approach.

I don't buy the "but we have to do it" excuse from people.

If you have to do it, you are in the wrong job.
 
I think the typical 9-5 day is a thing of the past. We've moved beyond that and we don't work in factories anymore which requires the need to be dynamic. This is a quality that mot employers look for now. We don't get paid for our time we get paid for the work we do.

Personally, for me, there are days when I don't work at all and just maybe login for an hour or two to go through emails and then there are days when I have to work 15 hours. Just because one has to work overtime one day or on a particular project does not mean that it impacts work/life balance.

I think the mindset of 9-5 is of the older generation. I love my work/life balance. In fact, on average I'm probably working less than 8 hours a day but the main thing is that as long as I'm doing what is required of me no one cares whether I put in 2 hours or 20 hours because that doesn't really matter.

Exact my experience too with my job during Covid times.
 
I would mostly only do overtime if paid for it. Often the staff are asked to stay behind for training purposes which goes unpaid but it is mandatory for the sake of future promotions. I am always willing to compromise within reason according to the circumstances. If a colleague is ill and needs money then I will do their hours even giving them the financial benefit but expecting them to reciprocate when I need them. Normally the 40 hours varied shifts I do are enough for me.
 
Well, in Hong Kong, you are expected to stay at work after working hours even if it is for half an hour. If you leave right on the dot, people will give you stares and they will regard you as being lazy and uncommitted. Almost everybody does OT here without any pay; it is a part of our working culture.

Another aspect is that a lot of people here are single and live alone so they have nothing to look forward to at home and they do not really have a social life. A recent survey revealed that Hong Kong has the longest working hours.

This is an extremely bad work culture.

I always tell the team members who report to me that working extra hours or staying at workplace after work hours does not impress me.
Yes, in the IT world when you have direct clients using your product, there are times when you are expected to step up and help in putting out the fire. This effort is appreciated, admired and rewarded. But in general, if you are smart, sharp and proactive enough, you should be able to wrap things up within your work hours.
If I see you consistently staying late and putting in extra hours then it’s either a performance issue or we have to revise your work load.
 
No one should endure such a thing, it is unethical doesn't matter the scenario.
If someone forces me to do such a thing I'd simply quit within a second.

That is a naive thing to say.

And where did force came in to play?

MenInG asked is it ethical to ask someone to work beyond office works? It could be a polite request since, the dept can be understaff and in order to run it, the existing ones may need to work additional hours.

If it is unethical under all circumstances, why it is unethical? I am interested to know this answer.
 
This is an extremely bad work culture.

I always tell the team members who report to me that working extra hours or staying at workplace after work hours does not impress me.
Yes, in the IT world when you have direct clients using your product, there are times when you are expected to step up and help in putting out the fire. This effort is appreciated, admired and rewarded. But in general, if you are smart, sharp and proactive enough, you should be able to wrap things up within your work hours.
If I see you consistently staying late and putting in extra hours then it’s either a performance issue or we have to revise your work load.

Different work culture in different countries. Comparision won't be an accurate one since there will be lots of variables in both the scenarios.
 
Once or twice in my working life. I quit those jobs. Life is not about work, it’s about living.

Sometimes I had to go past 5 pm a couple of hours for a decent employer, but I made sure I left two hours early the following Friday.
 
Different work culture in different countries. Comparision won't be an accurate one since there will be lots of variables in both the scenarios.

Can you please identify a few of those variables?

The notion I got from the Hong Kong work culture is that you always stay at the workplace after the work hours, not necessarily because you always have a huge work load in a super tight timeline, but mostly because people will give you stares otherwise.

If this is what it is then I persist with my opinion; it’s an extremely bad work culture.
 
Lol looks like their aren't many accountants and lawyers here. If you adopt a 9-5 attitude working for an accounting or law firm, I guarantee you will get canned.
 
Life is not about work, it’s about living.

I think it takes some longer than others to realise this.

Sometimes it's too late before they realise.

As a friend of mine once said "the graveyards are full of people who thought they were indispensable to their employers."
 
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I think it takes some longer than others to realise this.

Sometimes it's too late before they realise.

As a friend of mine once said "the graveyards are full of people who thought they were indispensable to their employers."

Graveyards are also full of people who thought life was about about living.

I think there is no blanket statement whether one should be always stringent to strictly work 9 to 5, or if someone works an hour extra to fry the bigger fish or balances it out by some other perk.

Everyone’s situation is different and it also depends on the employer.
 
Personally I don’t have an issue working a couple of extra hours or sometimes even more, because my employer has no issue if I have to take off a few hours (yet I get paid for it).

If someone wants to strictly stick with 9 to 5 routine then in all honesty, they must also make sure to refuse taking the payment of an hour or two, that they may need to take off to run some personal errand.
Or if they are running late then they must account for it and make up the missing time.
 
Graveyards are also full of people who thought life was about about living.

I think there is no blanket statement whether one should be always stringent to strictly work 9 to 5, or if someone works an hour extra to fry the bigger fish or balances it out by some other perk.

Everyone’s situation is different and it also depends on the employer.

It's obvious that everyone's situation is different and it doesn't take a genius to work out that every job is different, but what some of us are saying in this thread is that those who put themselves in this position shouldn't complain and if they aren't happy then they should look elsewhere.

Why be stuck in a job where you aren't happy.
 
I think it really depends your individual circumstances in life. How important or desperate it is for you keep your job.

I work strictly from 8.30 am to 5 pm with a 1 hour paid lunch break. So I work 7.5 hours.

I cannot remember the last time I worked beyond 5 pm. On those very rare occasions where I needed to work beyond 5 - my manager almost speaks to me in an apologetic tone requesting me to stay back - which in turn makes me very respectful of my manager's consideration of my work life balance.

But I must confess I am very lucky to be working where I work currently where there is not that kind of pressure to stay back and finish tasks.

I did quit my previous job where I was commuting to work for an hour and also occasionally worked on Saturdays especially during the crazy quarter end closing. But as I mentioned earlier my circumstances are different - I am not desperate to hold on to a job - my wife makes decent money and we do not have kids so there's no pressure to save for a college fund etc.,

My wife currently quit her own job and is going to back to school and only has a part time job.

So overall I think it really depends on the kind of job you do, the rapport you have with your manager and your own ability to quit the job if you really need to and how important it is for you keep that particular job where you have to work beyond 5 pm.
 
And I like stopping my work at 5 pm because it leaves with me plenty of disposable time. I typically go to bed around 2 am so that is 9 hours of disposable time on my hands. I spend it the way I see it fit. I am learning French, I read a lot, I go out and socialize with friends and on the days my wife is home - I spend that time with her. So there is a very good work life balance in my life.
 
Seems that in Covid-19 times, this is becoming the norm. Could be that employers are realizing that employees have less options due to the current economic climate.

But 2 questions

Is it Ethical to ask someone to work after office hours?

Or, is this just the way it is now - we better get used to it?

I think it’s surely unethical if the employer consistently urges you to work extra hours with no pay. Pretty obvious.

However, if the employer plays fair, and returns the favor with some other perk (not necessarily monetary) then it’s up to the employee whether he takes the trade off or not?

In my view, many employees would like to have the flexibility and happily go for a “give n take” scenario if the game is fairly played by both parties.

I also feel that many of very small offices/companies tend to be slightly more abusive towards the employees.

They micromanage and would want to squeeze the last drop of blood from the employees.
These businesses usually don’t last long and employees, especially new graduates, take on such Jobs because they have to start somewhere.
Obviously hardly anyone stays long with such employers.

Here in the U.S., it’s hard to find good employees these days as many in the work force don’t wanna come to work cuz they are sucking on unemployment benefits and govt hand outs due to Covid.

So employers tend to be cautious of not to letting go of their existing employees.

If there is a need for extra work hours then employers make sure to make it attractive.

For those who want to strictly work 9 to 5 or want to get paid for a couple extra hours, I think a more ideal situation would be to work as a contractor where a card punch-in, system is in-place.
 
When you’re a salaried employee working beyond the regular 40 odd hours per week is expected when necessary. You normally don’t get asked to do so, outside of on instance early on in my career I can’t recall anyone specially asking me to stay back and work extra. If I’ve fallen behind in my work I know I’m accountable and I’ll put in the extra time to finish something odd. Good employers also give you additional days off in the form of flex hours, 10-12 days per year which is intended to make up for extra time worked.

If I was an hourly employee then yes, I would push back on working extra without being paid for it but as a salaried employee it’s more organic and flexible.
 
Long working hours killing 745,000 people a year, study finds

Long working hours are killing hundreds of thousands of people a year, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

The first global study of its kind showed 745,000 people died in 2016 from stroke and heart disease due to long hours.

The report found that people living in South East Asia and the Western Pacific region were the most affected.

The WHO also said the trend may worsen due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Goldman Sachs bankers ask for 80-hour week cap
The research found that working 55 hours or more a week was associated with a 35% higher risk of stroke and a 17% higher risk of dying from heart disease, compared with a working week of 35 to 40 hours.

The study, conducted with the International Labour Organization (ILO), also showed almost three quarters of those that died as a result of working long hours were middle-aged or older men.

Often, the deaths occurred much later in life, sometimes decades later, than the long hours were worked.

While the study did not cover the period of the pandemic, WHO officials said the recent jump in remote working and the economic slowdown may have increased the risks associated with long working hours.

"We have some evidence that shows that when countries go into national lockdown, the number of hours worked increase by about 10%," WHO technical officer Frank Pega said.

The report said working long hours was estimated to be responsible for about a third of all work-related disease, making it the largest occupational disease burden.


The WHO suggests that employers should now take this into account when assessing the occupational health risks of their workers.

Capping hours would be beneficial for employers as that had been shown to increase productivity, Mr Pega said.

"It's really a smart choice to not increase long working hours in an economic crisis."

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57139434
 
Within a month of the first lockdown in the UK our company decided rather than furlough to reduce everyone in the companies hours to a 4 day week rather than 5 days for a period of 6 months. All this resulted in was a heavy work overload and some people like myself working extra to get work completed during a very busy period for our team. This meant working till after 9pm which no balance of work and family time. i noticed a lot of the other teams didn't have this mentality and literally worked their hours and would log out at 5.30. 3 months down the line we had to scrap the 4 days thing as the complaints from our customers was a concern. After we have been back to normal i have decided that i need the right balance and have started to take lunch breaks, make sure i get paid for any overtime i do or hours i do and leave early some days. mentally just having a lunch break and getting out of the office space i have set up in the spare room has helped.
 
Within a month of the first lockdown in the UK our company decided rather than furlough to reduce everyone in the companies hours to a 4 day week rather than 5 days for a period of 6 months. All this resulted in was a heavy work overload and some people like myself working extra to get work completed during a very busy period for our team. This meant working till after 9pm which no balance of work and family time. i noticed a lot of the other teams didn't have this mentality and literally worked their hours and would log out at 5.30. 3 months down the line we had to scrap the 4 days thing as the complaints from our customers was a concern. After we have been back to normal i have decided that i need the right balance and have started to take lunch breaks, make sure i get paid for any overtime i do or hours i do and leave early some days. mentally just having a lunch break and getting out of the office space i have set up in the spare room has helped.

Well done. Got to look after yourself — take your lunch hour and some micro-breaks, also don’t pile up the overtime — or you will slowly find yourself working your way into a stress-induced, unhappy, and exhausted early grave. There is more to life than work. :)
 

Australians get 'right to disconnect' after hours​


A "right to disconnect" rule has come into effect in Australia, offering relief to people who feel forced to take calls or read messages from employers after they finish their day’s work.

The new law allows employees to ignore communications after hours if they choose to, without fear of being punished by their bosses.

A survey published last year estimated that Australians worked on average 281 hours of unpaid overtime annually.

More than 20 countries, mainly in Europe and Latin America, have similar rules.

The law does not ban employers from contacting workers after hours.

Instead, it gives staff the right not to reply unless their refusal is deemed unreasonable.

Under the rules, employers and employees should try to resolve disputes among themselves. If that is unsuccessful in finding a resolution Australia's Fair Work Commission (FWC) can step in.

The FWC can then order the employer to stop contacting the employee after hours.

If it finds an employee's refusal to respond is unreasonable it can order them to reply.

Failure to comply with FWC orders can result in fines of up to A$19,000 ($12,897; £9,762) for an employee or up to A$94,000 for a company.

Organisations representing workers have welcomed the move.

It "will empower workers to refuse unreasonable out-of-hours work contact and enabling greater work-life balance", The Australian Council of Trade Unions said.

A workplace expert told BBC News that the new rules would also help employers.

"Any organisation that has staff who have better rest and who have better work-life-balance are going to have staff who are less likely to have sick days, less likely to leave the organisation", said John Hopkins from Swinburne University of Technology.

"Anything that benefits the employee, has benefits for the employer as well."

However, there was a mixed reaction to the new law from employees.

"I think it's actually really important that we have laws like this," advertising industry worker, Rachel Abdelnour, told Reuters.

"We spend so much of our time connected to our phones, connected to our emails all day, and I think that it's really hard to switch off as it is."

Others, however, do not feel the new rules will make much of a difference to them.

"I think it's an excellent idea. I hope it catches on. I doubt it'll catch on in our industry, to tell the truth though," David Brennan, a worker in the financial industry, told the news agency.

"We're well paid, we're expected to deliver, and we feel we have to deliver 24 hours a day."

 
It ultimately comes down to this: Do you utterly truly really love your job or not. If you do then the choices are obvious regardless of whether the employer reciprocates or not. If you don't then you are in the wrong job/profession/employer. I realize that vast majority of the people never get to experience that feeling but I have been fortunate.

And lets say the company/employer is a total jackass ... so what ... the experience you put in is entirely yours to keep !! And let me tell you there is no substitute for experience that you could easily use to find a better job!
 
It's obvious that everyone's situation is different and it doesn't take a genius to work out that every job is different, but what some of us are saying in this thread is that those who put themselves in this position shouldn't complain and if they aren't happy then they should look elsewhere.

Why be stuck in a job where you aren't happy.
Life's weird that way.

From age around 23/24 to 30, I rarely worked less than 12 hours a day and threw in plenty of weekends.

30 to 40, I must've averaged 9 to 10 hours a day with peaks and troughs.

Past 40, as I've gotten senior and have folks reporting to me who have folks reporting to them who have another layer below, I rarely put in more than 6 to 7 hours of honest work in. Plenty of time to read interesting articles, post on forums etc. Most of work is meetings and reviews.
 
I work overtime most of the days due the competition of the industry I am working in. I don't mind it because If our product grows so does my bonus and stock value. Overtime feels overtime if the problem space is not interesting. If its simple drudgery you might despise it.
 
Running 3 businesses.

2 are almost fully staff ran.

The other one is next to our house. I work about 50hrs a week there but go on 3 holidays a year. I think it's a decent balance.
 
Life's weird that way.

From age around 23/24 to 30, I rarely worked less than 12 hours a day and threw in plenty of weekends.

30 to 40, I must've averaged 9 to 10 hours a day with peaks and troughs.

Past 40, as I've gotten senior and have folks reporting to me who have folks reporting to them who have another layer below, I rarely put in more than 6 to 7 hours of honest work in. Plenty of time to read interesting articles, post on forums etc. Most of work is meetings and reviews.
Exactly how my life is going as well I’m 36 now the most work i put in were from 25-29.. and it was averaging around 12 , I’m happy with 8 now
 
I think if I do it for myself I feel more content but whenever I have done it for my manager or director in my life I have disliked it because at the end of the day they get higher returns due to their resource allocation.
I would do it though..
 
Exactly how my life is going as well I’m 36 now the most work i put in were from 25-29.. and it was averaging around 12 , I’m happy with 8 now

Yes I'm 38 I feel 18 to 30 you can do crazy hrs I used to do 90 to 100 a week but with kids and getting older you need to prioritise and look after yourself aswell.
 
Labour in the UK is too expensive. We are paying £2000 in wages a week so with other costs it's very tough. Funnily enough 2 of my employees are Indians from Punjab. Wonderful guys who are basically friends to me aswell.
 
Labour in the UK is too expensive. We are paying £2000 in wages a week so with other costs it's very tough. Funnily enough 2 of my employees are Indians from Punjab. Wonderful guys who are basically friends to me aswell.
Are you in takeaway business?
 
One takeaway 2 convenience stores
50 hours is decent for those industries. I've got relatives in those industries and it can consume you. Nice you have found some balance bro. They are working harder because can't find decent UK based staff and difficult to pay desis under the counter now.
 
50 hours is decent for those industries. I've got relatives in those industries and it can consume you. Nice you have found some balance bro

Yes once you realise you can't do it all yourself you're far better off. Too many Pakistanis in the UK work themselves into illness and early death. Not worth it. You need to value your time and your family.
 
I work beyond office hours cause my entire work is from home, and I get paid so much, As for not paid, lol, that's why you generate multiple income streams.

I get paid sufficient but I'm not tied down to just my work paying me lol.
 
Where do you work Deadly?
I worked in engineering now work in project management consultancy for tech companies. Mainly work from home. Review specs, resource and tenders and stuff. Not techy more PM or business analysis side.
 
I worked in engineering now work in project management consultancy for tech companies. Mainly work from home. Review specs, resource and tenders and stuff. Not techy more PM or business analysis side.
Thats pretty Pretty cool. Work from home rules anyway.
 
Thats pretty Pretty cool. Work from home rules anyway.
WFH came at a good time for me. I learned everything in person in quite tough environments where no hiding and can now use those skills. Because of my career in engineering it was difficult to WFH as physical presence was required.

I think for many youngsters who are only used to working from home it can be difficult to have built up the social skills and savvy necessary to operate in this environment.
 
I work beyond office hours cause my entire work is from home, and I get paid so much, As for not paid, lol, that's why you generate multiple income streams.

I get paid sufficient but I'm not tied down to just my work paying me lol.

Definitely you need to have an online business. Been fortunate made 6 figs online as a side business which covered holidays cars etc.
 
Definitely you need to have an online business. Been fortunate made 6 figs online as a side business which covered holidays cars etc.
I don't have an online business but I plan to start one soon after uni.

The thing is I'm already doing so much, I'm in my final semester, but I also work in advertising and I also teach Motion Graphic design both in person and online and I use ti freelance but I left freelancing for some time now, just more money in teaching, less competition as well and more convenient. Why get 1 to 10K from a client one at a time when you cam get it from multiple clients at the same time?

But yeah I will start my own ad agency soon enough, but when I'm 30 to 35, not now.
 
WFH came at a good time for me. I learned everything in person in quite tough environments where no hiding and can now use those skills. Because of my career in engineering it was difficult to WFH as physical presence was required.

I think for many youngsters who are only used to working from home it can be difficult to have built up the social skills and savvy necessary to operate in this environment.
I feel like physical presence builds your communication skills and actually teaches you the discipline to work.

But once that's achieved and you create the perfect employee it's just torture to keep someone at the workplace. Their just 100× more productive from home anyway.
 
I work beyond office hours cause my entire work is from home, and I get paid so much, As for not paid, lol, that's why you generate multiple income streams.

I get paid sufficient but I'm not tied down to just my work paying me lol.

Give some tips bro. By multiple streams do you mean Shares and Funds and interest earned from it? Or any other method?

It is too difficult for 9-5 job holders like us to focus on other things. How do you do it?
 
Give some tips bro. By multiple streams do you mean Shares and Funds and interest earned from it? Or any other method?

It is too difficult for 9-5 job holders like us to focus on other things. How do you do it?
Umm? No? Lol. When I was 18, I took an IT course and that IT course introduced to video editing, Graphic design, animation softwares and programming and database management.

So I pursued that all the way to my bachelors which was in design and marketing.

Now I'm a post grad but not a full time post grad a part time post grad and I work in an advertising company but the job is work from home.

Other then that, one of my mom's friends, her 15 year old son was interested and wanted to learn graphic design and I did him one better I taught him ae along with it.

That snowballed into more and more kids wanting to learn and in Australia it's a great opportunity as unlike pakistan where tuition centers are open left and right, Australia doesn't have that concept with even the smallest of diplomas costing 18 to 25K aus a year.

So yeah that's about it really. And since then I've been learning more and more software, soon I'll dabble into unreal engine.

The more softwares I learn, the .ore classes I can hold for various software subjects and teach them. And earn more, and do it online or in person.

And when it comes to what @GLORY OF '92 said, I think what I'll do is, I'll create a bunch of online courses and upload them to skillshare, udemy and other sites, and that'll be my side hustle.

Fiver amd upwork was okay for me, but it's just one client at a time and theirs too much competiton and the money is too less. Whereas with teaching, alot of students who wanna go to art school wanna learn from me and I give it to them for the fraction of the price lol.

The business thing aka my own ad agency I'll do that when I'm 30 to 35. I'm gonna enjoy my 20's before then.
 
Give some tips bro. By multiple streams do you mean Shares and Funds and interest earned from it? Or any other method?

It is too difficult for 9-5 job holders like us to focus on other things. How do you do it?
9-5 isnt hard for me though. I get a call or email telling me what the client brief is, i deaign or animate it for them and send it back and voila task done for me.

Again I dont know what your field is bro. Is it doctor? Lawyer? What is it?
 
9-5 isnt hard for me though. I get a call or email telling me what the client brief is, i deaign or animate it for them and send it back and voila task done for me.

Again I dont know what your field is bro. Is it doctor? Lawyer? What is it?

I work in a IT team pretty similar to Deadly. However we are required to go to office 3 days a week. Yes 9-5 was more of a generic statement and we often need to work/take zoom calls late hours
 
Give some tips bro. By multiple streams do you mean Shares and Funds and interest earned from it? Or any other method?

It is too difficult for 9-5 job holders like us to focus on other things. How do you do it?

Depends on job I guess. Whilst working at my shop I'd do my online stuff between serving customers etc. Just utilise time so that you can earn even whist you're asleep ideally.
 
I work in a IT team pretty similar to Deadly. However we are required to go to office 3 days a week. Yes 9-5 was more of a generic statement and we often need to work/take zoom calls late hours
I also had an unfair advantage as well.

My IT teacher and I became close friends. Amd he's only 6 years older then me. He kinda fast tracked me so the connections were also their.

Granted he no longer teaches IT anymore, switched to Teaching Pre University computer science now. But yeah those connections helped.

Whereas when I went to fiver I got crushed black and blue by the top rated sellers. It wasn't that I sucked, it was that those guys built a 10+ year reputation so not easy to catch up.

My business idea however is to make explainer videos and sell them, but again as I said, when I'm 30, not now. The freedom to run your own business is something else.

Teaching is up and down, have had some displeasure of interacting with parents as well claiming their son didn't learn anything amd in told them, not my fault cause they didn't do any project files I gave them, just sat in a corner picking their noses lol. It alas 13 to 16 year olds have very low attention spans, gotta spoon feed em.

I guess that's also why I have a habit of writing long essays on PP and all my comments are detailed explanations explaining to someone why their wrong 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
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