Does it bother you that some immigrants living for years in the UK still cannot speak English?

[MenInG]

Bothers me like crazy.

I am not talking about accents or knowing all the "in terms"; I am talking about simply expressing themselves in grammatically correct English.

I continue to meet people who have been around for years in the UK but their English sounds pathetic.

Of course the quality of English is no judge of what they have done for UK society/economy but as a personal improvement thing, would you not want to speak the language that your adopted homeland speaks?

 

[The_KING]

Yes, it does. If you are going to live in a foreign country at least have the courtesy to learn their language. You don't have to be perfect at it but at least you should be able to communicate in English,

 

[s28]

How many English people who colonised India for centuries could speak Urdu Hindi Gujarati Punjabi Bengali Tamil?

 

[Thivagar]

I don't mind women struggling to speak in the language of their adopted nation as they are often oppressed into being a "house wife".

 

[Asim2Good]

should not be problem, not every one is blessed with sharp mind

many westerners living in asian countries, not all of them speak local languages.
Many british/Americans/Australian living in HK dont' know abc of Cantonese

our ppl also who work around their own ppl, they are making money without speaking English so there is no pressure, you learn local language when working with local labour class.

 

[The_KING]

^ You don't need a sharp mind to learn a new language. You just need to be less lazy and put in a bit of effort. Honestly it's quite disrespectful if you live in a country and can't even speak enough of that language to hold an adequate conversation with someone.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No. They are usually low skilled immigrants doing low grade work for a pittance. Cleaning homes or cutting the grass doesn't usually require extensive language skills.

 

[Pakistanian]

It does frustrate me a bit when I come across people like that here but I try not to judge them, Idk what their circumstances are.

 

[MenInG]

How many English people who colonised India for centuries could speak Urdu Hindi Gujarati Punjabi Bengali Tamil?

Key word is colonised

Our people came here to work and integrate

 

[James]

Yes. It's a poor effort.

 

[Slog]

How many English people who colonised India for centuries could speak Urdu Hindi Gujarati Punjabi Bengali Tamil?

terrible logic. hard to take this line of thought seriously

Theres a difference between colonisation and immigration

Im sure most people learn that in grade school

 

[Yossarian]

Hardly any of the Westerners living in places like Dubai speak more than the odd word of Arabic or two. And many have lived or worked there for decades. Whereas Pakistanis for example who live there usually speak it reasonably well after being there for a few years.

Similarly, many Cubans in South Florida and Mexicans in Southern California don't speak much english either.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Bothers me like crazy.

I am not talking about accents or knowing all the "in terms"; I am talking about simply expressing themselves in grammatically correct English.

I continue to meet people who have been around for years in the UK but their English sounds pathetic.

Of course the quality of English is no judge of what they have done for UK society/economy but as a personal improvement thing, would you not want to speak the language that your adopted homeland speaks?

It would drive me insane, it shows that person did not make an effort to assimilate into their new society. Take Saqlain Mustaq for instance he could not speak or understand a word of english before he played a few season of county in ENG. After a few years of playing in county he now sound like a full on BRIT, so there should be no excuses...........

 

[MenInG]

Hardly any of the Westerners living in places like Dubai speak more than the odd word of Arabic or two. And many have lived or worked there for decades. Whereas Pakistanis for example who live there usually speak it reasonably well after being there for a few years.

Similarly, many Cubans in South Florida and Mexicans in Southern California don't speak much english either.

Most people speak English in the middle east and expats get on with life and also there are no immigrants as they don't have nationalities so that's fine

Those who are offered nationalities are required to speak perfect Arabic

 

[Madplayer]

You should be able to understand and speak basic version of any local language of any country within 2 years of spending time in that particular country. If you cant do it, the fault lies with you.

 

[Mamoon]

Hardly any of the Westerners living in places like Dubai speak more than the odd word of Arabic or two. And many have lived or worked there for decades. Whereas Pakistanis for example who live there usually speak it reasonably well after being there for a few years.

Similarly, many Cubans in South Florida and Mexicans in Southern California don't speak much english either.

I don't think Dubai is a good example. Unless you socialize with the locals in the UAE, it is quite difficult to learn Arabic. English is prevalent everywhere, from schools, universities, work places etc.

The desis who learn Arabic in Dubai generally don't have corporate jobs. The taxi drivers, laborers and shop owners etc. tend to learn Arabic if they live there for a few years.

I know many people who have been working in the UAE in different fields such as engineering, finance etc. and they haven't learned Arabic simply because they have rarely had the opportunity.

 

[Yossarian]

Most people speak English in the middle east and expats get on with life and also there are no immigrants as they don't have nationalities so that's fine

Those who are offered nationalities are required to speak perfect Arabic

No, not all, not even most people speak English in the Middle East. Don't be fooled into believing that just because those Arabs that the tourists and businessmen mainly come into contact with speak English, it automatically means that all Arabs in these countries speak Arabic.

Are you also aware that in some areas in places like Southern Florida, being unable to speak Spanish is a bigger hinderance that being unable to speak English? And I don't mean some out of the way hamlets, but parts of major cities like Miami.

So much so that there are demands in these areas for Spanish to be made an official language alongside English.

MIAMI — Melissa Green's mother spoke Spanish, but she never learned — her father forbid it. Today, that's a frequent problem in this city where the English-speaking population is outnumbered.

The 49-year-old flower shop owner and Miami native said her inability to speak "espanol" makes it difficult to conduct business, seek help at stores and even ask directions. She finds it "frustrating."

"It makes it hard for some people to find a job because they don't speak Spanish, and I don't think that it is right," said Green, who sometimes calls a Spanish-speaking friend to translate for customers who don't speak English.


"Sometimes I think they should learn it," she said.

In many areas of Miami, Spanish has become the predominant language, replacing English in everyday life. Anyone from Latin America could feel at home on the streets, without having to pronounce a single word in English.

In stores, shopkeepers wait on their clients in Spanish. Universities offer programs for Spanish speakers. And in supermarkets, banks, restaurants — even at the post office and government offices — information is given and assistance is offered in Spanish. In Miami, doctors and nurses speak Spanish with their patients and a large portion of advertising is in Spanish. Daily newspapers and radio and television stations cater to the Hispanic public.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24871558/ns/us_news-life/t/miami-spanish-becoming-primary-language/

 

[Yossarian]

I don't think Dubai is a good example. Unless you socialize with the locals in the UAE, it is quite difficult to learn Arabic. English is prevalent everywhere, from schools, universities, work places etc.

The desis who learn Arabic in Dubai generally don't have corporate jobs. The taxi drivers, laborers and shop owners etc. tend to learn Arabic if they live there for a few years.

I know many people who have been working in the UAE in different fields such as engineering, finance etc. and they haven't learned Arabic simply because they have rarely had the opportunity.

I spent quite a few years living and working in the Middle East during my early to late 20's. I too didn't learn to speak/understand Arabic due to the reasons you mentioned. And this despite the fact of being able to read Urdu/Arabic.

Conversely, I had a few Western friends working in a couple of hospitals. They picked up Arabic very quickly due to their interactions with patients, despite there being interpreters or patients relatives being present for those who didn't speak English. I guess there's only so many times when they needed to ask the interpreter to translate into Arabic "Does it hurt here, or here, or there ...?" before being able to ask the question in Arabic themselves!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I suppose it might bother me more if I had regular interaction with these people. As it is I don't really mix with them, how they get by in this country isn't really my issue.

 

[Robert]

Mrs Robert and I talk of retiring to Tenerife. If so, I shall certainly take Spanish lessons.

 

[James]

I think stark differences in language within the same country (and refusal of people to learn the local language) lead to ghettoisation.

 

[Robert]

I think stark differences in language within the same country (and refusal of people to learn the local language) lead to ghettoisation.

Agree, though plenty of British LAs have not helped, by pushing one ethnic group into a given housing block, and another group into the next block, thus creating the ghettos. I see this all over south London.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Doesn't bother me at all. It's up to the individual as it benefits them to learn the language.

British people should be the last to complain , they live all over the world but never learn the native language.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

It's mainly an educational issue as all colleges and unis teach English in Pakistan

If you call a spouse over they have to know a minimum amount of English, maybe the tests should be made more difficult , put the bar a little higher

 

[Major]

Nope it does not.

And i find it ridiculous how others feel bothered about it.

French is another language of Canada and most people don't know it, so should a french Canadian really feel bothered about this?

Same way many people dont know how to read urdu in Pakistan(these are the o level and a level guys here) should i feel annoyed about that?

 

[Major]

^ You don't need a sharp mind to learn a new language. You just need to be less lazy and put in a bit of effort. Honestly it's quite disrespectful if you live in a country and can't even speak enough of that language to hold an adequate conversation with someone.

its not ridiculous.

So diplomats who get posted at a foreign country for a 5 year term should comeback knowing a new language every time they get posted?

Language issue is something people think very lightly and are quick enough to judge others about it.

Learning a language is very easy for a toddler. A toddler could quickly grasp on a language and improve in it as he grows.

For a grown up its really tough and not as easy it seems to others.

 

[Atif]

Doesn't personally bother me, but I'm sure it bothers many others as per posters above.

 

[PakLFC]

Yes it greatly offends me. Their inability to speak English leads to all sorts of problems like racism and so forth. Often many villagers in Pakistan have better English then those who have been living here for 30 years. The whole community is seen as being backward due to a few such stupid people. Not only English, I feel expats and immigrants should be made to learn the majority language in every country.

 

[Black Zero]

Canadian perspective:

We welcome hundred of thousands (around 1% of our total population) of new immigrants EVERY year. And significant number of imigrants are of refugees and parent classes.

Canadian govt provide services to help new immigrants in integration process, but we also understand, learning new language is not an easy task.

We believe in inclusiveness, so people try to accommodate immigrants.

However, situation is opposite in Quebec, which is a french speaking province. Québecons are very protective about their language. This province is also plagued by racism so maybe their is some connection between these two.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Bothers me less than the immigrants in U.K. who make fun of their own country and it's people. Have to feel sorry for such people. There's something inherently wrong with them

 

[saeedhk]

How about British Pakistanis who can't speak the language of their motherland?

 

[Couch Cricketer]

We are just a few years away from universal real time translators which will solve the problem for most people.

 

[Yossarian]

How about British Pakistanis who can't speak the language of their motherland?

If they can't then almost certainly they were'nt born there, therefore it's not their 'motherland'.

My grandmother and grandfather ( nani & nana) on my mothers side were born in a village that is now in India. Their families had to flee during the Partition. My mother was born in Pakistan. So was I. My children were born in the UK.

Is my mother's 'motherland' India even though she was born in Pakistan?

And if so, what is my 'motherland'? Pakistan, where I was born but left when very young, or India where my grandparents, nana & nani, were born?

And what is my children's 'motherland'? India, Pakistan, or the UK?

Does 'motherland' remain static even though the places/countries where the descendants are born change?

Or does the 'motherland' change after X number of generations? If so, after how many generations?

And if parents & grandparents originate from different place, which one is the 'motherland'? The maternal route or the paternal route?

Donald Trump's mother was born in Scotland. Is his 'motherland' Scotland?

'Motherland' is a meaningless term once you've understood the above.

 

[yasir]

I don't think Dubai is a good example. Unless you socialize with the locals in the UAE, it is quite difficult to learn Arabic. English is prevalent everywhere, from schools, universities, work places etc.

The desis who learn Arabic in Dubai generally don't have corporate jobs. The taxi drivers, laborers and shop owners etc. tend to learn Arabic if they live there for a few years.

I know many people who have been working in the UAE in different fields such as engineering, finance etc. and they haven't learned Arabic simply because they have rarely had the opportunity.

Same can be said about China or Japan, learning languages is hard, there has to be long term benefit for keep doing that... It takes much longer to settle in those countries where language is barrier...

I was in Paris this winter holidays, lot of their potential is curbed because of language...They are struggling a bit more because their culture is not so dominating anymore, people are not going to learn or embrace French, something many conservatives had hard time understanding... Their younger generation is slowly coming in terms with reality...

In USA, mostly I have seen older(55/60+) Desis who don't learn English, its sort of too late to stress yourself with learning new language, if you have not done at younger age. They will be getting odd jobs here and there, if at all, for that higher level of language skills are not really required... My father in law was trying to learn computer, but it was very stressful for him, my advice to him was to not stress himself with learning new tools, he can get heart disease with that much stress

 

[yasir]

We are just a few years away from universal real time translators which will solve the problem for most people.

It will take few years for those translators to work in Punjabi and Pahari

 

[kamz]

Most people speak English in the middle east and expats get on with life and also there are no immigrants as they don't have nationalities so that's fine

Those who are offered nationalities are required to speak perfect Arabic

for sure not and i can bet anything on that

 

[kamz]

I don't think Dubai is a good example. Unless you socialize with the locals in the UAE, it is quite difficult to learn Arabic. English is prevalent everywhere, from schools, universities, work places etc.

The desis who learn Arabic in Dubai generally don't have corporate jobs. The taxi drivers, laborers and shop owners etc. tend to learn Arabic if they live there for a few years.

I know many people who have been working in the UAE in different fields such as engineering, finance etc. and they haven't learned Arabic simply because they have rarely had the opportunity.

you are discounting two kinds of people here and generalising them into a pool of people who dont have corporate jobs:

1) people who have who have one of their parents as arab (pakistanis and balooshis settled in the gulf in early 1900s - some of their generation - surprisingly enough some of us did get educated enough to hold a corporate position

2) people who are 2nd or 3rd generation born in the gulf - an incident that took me by a pleasant surprise whilst visiting home and family was that my nephew (14 years old) was speaking to an indigenous canadian in arabic and he was his classmate.

But then i have also seen equally boys and girls who have been born in the gulf and cannot speak the local language

 

[saeedhk]

If they can't then almost certainly they were'nt born there, therefore it's not their 'motherland'.

My grandmother and grandfather ( nani & nana) on my mothers side were born in a village that is now in India. Their families had to flee during the Partition. My mother was born in Pakistan. So was I. My children were born in the UK.

Is my mother's 'motherland' India even though she was born in Pakistan?

And if so, what is my 'motherland'? Pakistan, where I was born but left when very young, or India where my grandparents, nana & nani, were born?

And what is my children's 'motherland'? India, Pakistan, or the UK?

Does 'motherland' remain static even though the places/countries where the descendants are born change?

Or does the 'motherland' change after X number of generations? If so, after how many generations?

And if parents & grandparents originate from different place, which one is the 'motherland'? The maternal route or the paternal route?

Donald Trump's mother was born in Scotland. Is his 'motherland' Scotland?

'Motherland' is a meaningless term once you've understood the above.

For me, ethnicity is more important than nationality. Personally, I believe it is important to know the language of your home country or that of your parents home country.

Having a British passport doesn't make one British and having a HK passport doesn't make one a Hong Konger; at the end of the day, you are a Pakistani.

 

[Robert]

Doesn't bother me at all. It's up to the individual as it benefits them to learn the language.

British people should be the last to complain , they live all over the world but never learn the native language.

Never [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] ? Rather a generalisation, don't you think? There are plenty of British polyglots.

 

[Yossarian]

For me, ethnicity is more important than nationality. Personally, I believe it is important to know the language of your home country or that of your parents home country.

Having a British passport doesn't make one British and having a HK passport doesn't make one a Hong Konger; at the end of the day, you are a Pakistani.

Rubbish. You obviously didn't understand any of that post. Go back and read it - all of it - and then you'll realise how silly your comment appears to be.

'Pakistan' is an artificial entity created less than 70 years ago whose borders consist of straight lines drawn on a map by those who left decades ago, and who weren't even from there in the first place. How can anyone be of that artificial entity if they, and in some cases their parents as well, weren't even born there?

 

[Mamoon]

you are discounting two kinds of people here and generalising them into a pool of people who dont have corporate jobs:

1) people who have who have one of their parents as arab (pakistanis and balooshis settled in the gulf in early 1900s - some of their generation - surprisingly enough some of us did get educated enough to hold a corporate position

2) people who are 2nd or 3rd generation born in the gulf - an incident that took me by a pleasant surprise whilst visiting home and family was that my nephew (14 years old) was speaking to an indigenous canadian in arabic and he was his classmate.

But then i have also seen equally boys and girls who have been born in the gulf and cannot speak the local language

People who are half-Arabs, i.e. 1) don't fit into this discussion anyway, since we are talking about people from different countries and backgrounds moving into the UAE for jobs. Similarly, second and third generations are a bit different because children of these families mostly end up studying in International Schools where English is widely spoken but they do learn (not sure, but confidently assuming) Arabic as a subject.

 

[saeedhk]

Rubbish. You obviously didn't understand any of that post. Go back and read it - all of it - and then you'll realise how silly your comment appears to be.

'Pakistan' is an artificial entity created less than 70 years ago whose borders consist of straight lines drawn on a map by those who left decades ago, and who weren't even from there in the first place. How can anyone be of that artificial entity if they, and in some cases their parents as well, weren't even born there?

Utter hogwash! Isn't that how many countries come into existence? Pakistanis here in Hong Kong also hold HK passports but I do not see them going around and shouting that they are Hong Konger. A documents proves nothing. Ethnicity trumps nationality.

 

[IAJ]

I don't live in an english speaking country , and english is my 5th language, but I want to jump in with my point here. If people are lazy and therefore don't want to learn the language then it would bother me, but there can be other valid reasons as well.

 

[IAJ]

Utter hogwash! Isn't that how many countries come into existence? Pakistanis here in Hong Kong also hold HK passports but I do not see them going around and shouting that they are Hong Konger. A documents proves nothing. Ethnicityy trumps nationality.

lol a certain president would second that

 

[Yossarian]

Utter hogwash! Isn't that how many countries come into existence? Pakistanis here in Hong Kong also hold HK passports but I do not see them going around and shouting that they are Hong Konger. A documents proves nothing. Ethnicity trumps nationality.

Pakistan is not made up of just one single ethnicity for a start. And 'Pakistani' itself is not an 'ethnicity'. For example, Pashtuns are not the same ethnicity as Balochis or the majority of Punjabis or Sindhis.
As for your "Ethnicity trumps nationality" comment, what are you trying to say? Because then, according to your logic, since "Pakistani" is not an ethnicity but a nationality, that means being a Pashtun trumps being a Pakistani, being a Baloch trumps being a Pakistani .....You are not only contradicting yourself but you also don't appear to have a clue as to what you're talking about.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Never [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] ? Rather a generalisation, don't you think? There are plenty of British polyglots.

Ok maybe never was the wrong choice of word but we both know in places such as Spain where there is a large number of British expats, the majority do not bother to learn Spanish. You can also see where Britain colonised, the natives speak English.

 

[saeedhk]

Pakistan is not made up of just one single ethnicity for a start. And 'Pakistani' itself is not an 'ethnicity'. For example, Pashtuns are not the same ethnicity as Balochis or the majority of Punjabis or Sindhis.
As for your "Ethnicity trumps nationality" comment, what are you trying to say? Because then, according to your logic, since "Pakistani" is not an ethnicity but a nationality, that means being a Pashtun trumps being a Pakistani, being a Baloch trumps being a Pakistani .....You are not only contradicting yourself but you also don't appear to have a clue as to what you're talking about.

Let's not deliberately confuse ourselves with technicalities. Let me put it into simpler words: I believe a person's native country or descent are closer to one's heart than his/her nationality. Nationality is easily changed by obtaining a document. A Pakistani who comes to the U.K as a spouse become a Brit after a few years but for me, he is a Pakistani after all. So, I believe it is also important to know the language of your native country or your country of descent.

 

[Yossarian]

Let's not deliberately confuse ourselves with technicalities. Let me put it into simpler words: I believe a person's native country or descent are closer to one's heart than his/her nationality. Nationality is easily changed by obtaining a document. A Pakistani who comes to the U.K as a spouse become a Brit after a few years but for me, he is a Pakistani after all. So, I believe it is also important to know the language of your native country or your country of descent.

Have you read the following posts from the other thread that is currently being debated?

Being literate in urdu is not a problem for those who wan't to move back. 45% of the population can't read or write but many are doing well, Plus it shouldn't be very difficult to learn since most people can speak and understand it.

What makes you think that urdu is needed to compete at the top level? I was taking your posts seriously before this.

Almost all of the top university graduates absolutely suck at writing urdu while some of them can read it a bit. Proficiency Urdu at no level in a professional career is of any importance in Pakistan anymore. Its shameful that people of this country can't read or write in urdu but that's how it is.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...back-there-if-you-could&p=9072966#post9072966

I suggest you also read both the prior as well as the subsequent exchanges to the above posts. After which yourself, [MENTION=141885]Moiza[/MENTION] and [MENTION=129767]speed[/MENTION] may wish to get together and have a discussion as to the importance of those of Pakistani origins living outside Pakistan being fluent in urdu, whilst those in senior positions in management and the professions within Pakistan itself need not have any knowledge of urdu whatsoever, especially since one of them says:

Almost all of the top university graduates absolutely suck at writing urdu while some of them can read it a bit. Proficiency Urdu at no level in a professional career is of any importance in Pakistan anymore

Please keep us informed as to how your discussion with [MENTION=141885]Moiza[/MENTION] and [MENTION=129767]speed[/MENTION] progresses. Thanks.