Effects of quotas and race-based selection on South Africa cricket

[Junaids]

Sorry to intrude here for a topic I am not interested, but I was waiting for your response in other thread - apart from skin color, please bother to explain why you should pick Harmar over Mahraj, specially when I have read lot from you regarding the utility of an off-spinner in Test cricket. SAF is struggling, because their established players are not performing & they are missing 2 of the ATGs in playing XI. And, their white players are leaving SAF because of better dollar at County through a back door and they don't have any commitment for SAF, neither the balls to fight it out.

I have to do this here, because we should be fair with every race, color & religion. You are one of the most respected poster here, therefore your opinion matters - I won't have posted here if it was a random guy -


Regarding your team, I explained why it's biased to fit in your theory - would like read response form you & other posters on the following link. I don't want to tag anyone, but would appreciate posters bothering to respond here or there.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...taincy-has-been-exposed&p=9390759#post9390759

Honestly, with the exception of Denys Hobson during the Apartheid Ban I don't think that South Africa has ever had a spinner worthy of being selected.

I'm deeply unimpressed by Maharaj: I can see why Shamsi has more potential.

It's not that I "want a white team."

For me the issues are that:

1. A country whose playing base is 4 million whites can't afford to omit any players who should be selected on merit.

2. I doubt that cricket will ever get a foothold in the African population, rather like only private schoolboys ever play rugby union in England and Australia.

3. Even players like Rabada and Bavuma were either born into wealth and privilege (Rabada) or attended an elite school (Bavuma).

4. Pay for South African international players is atrocious. Low wages cultivate fixing in poorer - mainly non-white - players, and encourage white players who don't fit inside the "best five white players" quota to emigrate.

5. That white flight exacerbates domestic quotas by weakening the quality in domestic cricket, which goes on to slow the development of non-white players.

It's a big mess. It's heading in the Zimbabwe direction.

 

[sam_ahm]

while I do agree that race based selection is not good for any team, let alone RSA, I think the situation is not as bad as it is being projected by some of us here.

In the recently concluded test series RSA fielded as many as 6-7 white players throughout. The quota system works over the duration of a season and across formats, which means the best way to deal with it is to follow the rotation policy. Quite obviously RSA will be looking to field colored players more in T20 Internationals and probably in some random ODI series to make the numbers.

In test matches and other important tournaments like ODI World Cup, Champions Trophy etc.. RSA will still field their best line up.

Moreover the colored players aren't as bad as they are made out to be when we talk about the LOI format. I think Immi Tahir, Shamsi, Maharaj are still better than any other white spinner in RSA. Hash and Rabada are permanent members Quote system or not, and Hash is easily still South Africa's best batsman across formats.

JP can still make the ODI team on merit and I think players like Farhaan Behardien haven't done that badly at all, they have contributed when required. Another fast bowler Lungi Ngidi is expected to be a very promising youngster. So things are not that bad at all.

It is nothing like we will always see only 5 white players in South African team, but yes, there will be more rotation of players esp in a meaningless T20I, or an ODI once the series is won/lost.

 

[MMHS]

Honestly, with the exception of Denys Hobson during the Apartheid Ban I don't think that South Africa has ever had a spinner worthy of being selected.

I'm deeply unimpressed by Maharaj: I can see why Shamsi has more potential.

It's not that I "want a white team."

For me the issues are that:

1. A country whose playing base is 4 million whites can't afford to omit any players who should be selected on merit.

2. I doubt that cricket will ever get a foothold in the African population, rather like only private schoolboys ever play rugby union in England and Australia.

3. Even players like Rabada and Bavuma were either born into wealth and privilege (Rabada) or attended an elite school (Bavuma).

4. Pay for South African international players is atrocious. Low wages cultivate fixing in poorer - mainly non-white - players, and encourage white players who don't fit inside the "best five white players" quota to emigrate.

5. That white flight exacerbates domestic quotas by weakening the quality in domestic cricket, which goes on to slow the development of non-white players.

It's a big mess. It's heading in the Zimbabwe direction.

Apart from Majraj part, which I have confessed last time - I'll never discuss Spinners with an Englishman, I don't completely disagree with any of your points apart from No. 1 - but, you have to look at both ways for your five points -

1. 4mn or 40mn, doesn't matter, no player should be omitted from racial quota - that's completely agreed. But, that's not the case here - by chance or by design, 5 non whites are performing in the team - it's the white players that have under performed or didn't bother to fight it out. Why should a non white SAF players made to pay for those? Non white SAF's are not making the team out of color quota only - rather the whites are just not good enough and failing to cement their spot.

2. If that's the case, then cricket'll get extinct from SAF. It's their country & they are 85%+ brutal majority - if they are not interested, the game won't survive there; you can't keep it alive by live support with few whites interested in the game. I see it other way - it's the only way for cricket to survive in SAF is to bring non whites in the game. What you are saying (blacks would ever have foothold), if true then in Soccer Brazil won't have been Brazil, or USA won't have been USA in Basketball - 100 years ago, Brazil had 1 (or 2) "Niger" (no disrespect) in it's Olympic football team ....... Even for ENG, I believe Viv Anderson was the first black (non white) players winning ENG Cap in 1977 - now, that same ENG team has at least 6 Black/non white starters - Clyne, Smalling, Walker, Sturridge, Sterling, Alli - add to that Bertrand, Rashford, Alex Ox, Defoe, Livermore, Rose, Gibbs, Walcott, Welback ...... not sure what you can prove here.

3. That's just the start - Apartheid SAF had deprived non whites for centuries, therefore they are several generation behind. Now, only those having a little privilege are making it, in future it should reach to the mass level. For example, Kumar Sri Ranji or Dulip were Maharaja, Iftekhar was Nawab of Pataudi, Jahagir Khan (Majid's father) was a barrister in 1930s - they played for ENG, because they got the chance to learn the game. But, 50 years later Vinod Kambli is making it from Mumbai slam, Razzqq was a day laborer at a motor mechanic shop, our Rafique is one of 8 childs of a day laborer mom, with their father leaving them at childhood .............. talent needs opportunity to flourish, not social class.

4. This one I can't tell - but, I explained several times that MoHa can't & shouldn't complain what Yuvraz is earning, while YV can't complain what Alex Rod is earning at NY Yankees. That's a problem across all section - why should whites only react to that? And, that's a problem for cricket vs football or golf, not white vs black.

5. Domestic quota may be weakening the system; but this is the only way to bring non whites in the game, so that in future there is a strong non white base. Also, every injustice balances out over time - that's the learning from history. For example, if you put several white names from 50s & 60s SAF team - even you'll be surprised to think, how this guy played Test cricket, sometimes even Captaining the side ..... Here, they are just balancing it a bit. Once, there is enough non white players - it won't be required.

I reiterate - I am not for any such quota, but I understand what's the reasons behind it. If it ends like ZIM, that'll be because of another Robert Mughabe type, not for bringing blacks in the game.

 

[Chrish]

What's the point of having this discussion? There is no active saffer poster to express his opinions.

It is what it is

 

[Specialisttailender]

No offence, but you are completely misunderstanding the situation.

There is a maximum white quota cap of an average of 5 white players in the starting eleven.

That on merit would mean:

1. FAF du Plessis as skipper
2. AB De Villiers as an ATG
3. Dale Steyn as an ATG
4. Quinton de Kock as a potential future ATG
5. Dean Elgar as the best opener.

All other white cricketers know that they can only get into the side as an injury replacement - like Morne Morkel now.

This has led to an exodus of the ten or so next best white players - people like:

Neil Wagner
Kyle Abbott
Dane Vilas
Simon Harmer
Ryan McLaren
Stephen Cook
Rilee Rossouw
Stiaan Van Zyl

This means that the white players now struggling in the team - Duanne Olivier, Heino Kuhn, Theunis de Bruyn - are not the 6th to 9th best white players but rather the 16th to 19th best.

An entire generation of players is basically locked out for being white.

Meanwhile Amla, Duminy and Bavuma deliver diminishing returns, and Philander is never fit, but because of their race they are each very hard to drop.

Hard to feel sorry for these players, imagine how many players would have been denied of their opportunity not just in Cricket.

 

[Hasan123]

And now we are at the crux of the problem.

The best team would contain 8 whites, not 5.

If I had to pick a South African team to win the World Test Championship in England, with full liberty to pick any players who have emigrated, my team would be:

1. Stephen Cook
2. Dean Elgar
3. Hashim Amla - now clearly a fading force who has less than a dozen Tests left in him.
4. AB De Villiers
5. FAF du Plessis (captain)
6. Quinton De Kock
7. Dane Vilas (wk)
8. Vernon Philander
9. Kyle Abbott (or Stephen Harmer if I pick a spinner)
10. Dale Steyn
11. Kagiso Rabada

The reason why I might not have a spinner is because there are 6 or 7 better quick bowlers than the best spinner.

My team is absolutely off limits for quota reasons.

So an inferior team is picked, the 6th to 15th best whites emigrate, and the code of silence only gets broken by players like Harmer who are bitter to have lost their careers and who have nothing left to lose.

Poor Bavuma is only selectable when De Kock is viewed as a keeper. But clearly AB and De Kock are both superior batsmen, and Bavuma only gets in on quota grounds.

Let's assume the test championship took place in 2018 your team breaks your own philosophy of having a young team. Amla 35,Steyn 34, AB 34,Vernon 33,Faf 34,Cook is 35/36 can't remember off the top of my head. So it's interesting to fit your own team you will break your own beliefs.

I actually would say this team is spot on if there was no quota rules but you want a young team but tour selecting this 11.

 

[sam_ahm]

More depressing news coming in, Morne Morkel is also considering a Kolpak deal.

I hope he stays.

 

[shah_1]

This quota system is pathetic for national team .

 

[Junaids]

More depressing news coming in, Morne Morkel is also considering a Kolpak deal.

I hope he stays.

It's inevitable.

And with

1) Steyn on his last legs, and

2) Philander's years of slack diet and fitness catching up prematurely like with Wayne Rooney

....... South Africa needed Abbott, Morkel and De Lange to carry the attack from 2018-2021.

All of whom will have emigrated.

Pakistan must have an outstanding chance in South Africa in 16 months' time, because Amla will be a caricature quota filler by then too.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Can't really blame Morkel if he takes up this deal, he's 33 and knows that if Steyn is fit he likely doesn't have a hope in hell of being selected. This is one of the few occasions I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], that South African cricket is heading down the mire if the politicians don't buck up. I suspect they wouldn't care.

 

[hadi123]

Can't really blame Morkel if he takes up this deal, he's 33 and knows that if Steyn is fit he likely doesn't have a hope in hell of being selected. This is one of the few occasions I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION], that South African cricket is heading down the mire if the politicians don't buck up. I suspect they wouldn't care.

He doesn't have a hope of being selected if Steyn comes back? He was their best player against England by a country mile, I think he was SA's man of the series. Also, most people believe Steyn is finished anyway. Morkel will be one of the first names on the team sheet for SA. I will lose a lot of respect for him if he accepts the Kolpak deal

 

[Last Monetarist]

He doesn't have a hope of being selected if Steyn comes back? He was their best player against England by a country mile, I think he was SA's man of the series. Also, most people believe Steyn is finished anyway. Morkel will be one of the first names on the team sheet for SA. I will lose a lot of respect for him if he accepts the Kolpak deal

Of course on merit, he should be the leader of the attack. Problem is that due to the quotas system, SA are likely to select a bowling attack of Philander, Rabada, Maharaj and one of Steyn or Morkel. That much was clarified after the 2015 World Cup, that even when both were fit they'd find excuses to leave the other one out (rested being the convenient excuse usually). There was some talk recently that they had to retire from one format to get a game (Steyn from test cricket and Morkel from ODIs was the rumour).

 

[Junaids]

I have reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that Transformation is a sham.

I am the first to admit the horrors of Apartheid, and I marched in favour of the sporting boycott.

But whereas the country has avoided becoming Zimbabwe or Mozambique by NOT going for expropriation of white property and wealth, in terms of cricket we are seeing the most self-defeating quota filling imaginable.

I have no reason to believe that this is about creating an outstanding team that is representative of the demographics of the country.

Quite the opposite. Kagiso Rabada might be black, but he is also the son of a brain surgeon. Temba Bavuma went to an elite school.

In effect, we are actually seeing an extension of what happened in the dark days of the 1980's with the West Indies - the black players who thrive effectively do so as "honorary whites".

Like the odious Ozias Bute at Zimbabwe Cricket, the people pushing blind transformation - in government, not Cricket South Africa - don't care that they are weakening the team or that Kagiso Rabada is about as representative of disadvantaged black youth as Rihanna or Beyoncé.

To be honest, I don't believe that transformation is even possible.

In Australia, people from Sydney grow up watching rugby league, not Australian Rules, and the reverse is true in Melbourne.

I don't believe that black South Africans will give up football for cricket. I don't believe that they will give up football for rugby union.

It's a mirage, an illusion.

At best, there will occasionally be 1 or 2 black kids who have become good at cricket, probably in many cases by going the honorary white route like Rabada and Bavuma.

There will be more mixed race and Indian kids who make it, because they come from less poverty.

But the whole thing is at best a sham, window dressing to make the team look a bit less exclusively white.

But transformation into a team with five or less white players is only possible by enfeebling the team and by driving white players to emigrate.

It's starting to turn into a form of ethnic cleansing of cricket.

Apartheid was evil. But two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[MenInG]

As ridiculous as it gets!




https://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/T...ury-results-in-titans-quota-headache-20171214

Cape Town - Henry Davids was scheduled to play in the RAM SLAM T20 Challenge semi-final against the Warriors at SuperSport Park on Wednesday.

However, minutes before the toss, Davids popped his knee during a warm-up, which meant the Titans opening batsman would not feature in their all-important knockout game.

According to the Citizen website, with Davids' exclusion it meant that the Titans were short of one player of colour.

The current quota system stipulates that all franchises must field six players of colour in their starting XIs at all times during this season's Ram Slam T20, One-Day Cup and four-day Sunfoil Series.

Three of the six must also be black African players.

The Titans' reserves - Heinrich Klaasen and Shaun von Berg - were not players of colour.

According to the publication, Titans CEO Jacques Faul had immediately contacted Cricket South Africa (CSA) explaining their situation with CSA making a provision for the Pretoria-franchise.

However the Titans will need to submit Davids' medical certificate and a written report to CSA's transformation manager, Max Jordaan.

Titans head coach Mark Boucher called-up Klaasen as a replacement in their semi-final fixture with the Titans opting to bat first in Centurion.

Tabraiz Shamsi's heroics helped book the Titans their ticket to the final with an emphatic eight-wicket win over the Warriors.

Boucher and his charges will host the Dolphins in the T20 Challenge final at SuperSport Park on Saturday. Play starts at 18:00.

 

[Hermoine Green]

^ Horrendous.

 

[Gilly]

I have reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that Transformation is a sham.

I am the first to admit the horrors of Apartheid, and I marched in favour of the sporting boycott.

But whereas the country has avoided becoming Zimbabwe or Mozambique by NOT going for expropriation of white property and wealth, in terms of cricket we are seeing the most self-defeating quota filling imaginable.

I have no reason to believe that this is about creating an outstanding team that is representative of the demographics of the country.

Quite the opposite. Kagiso Rabada might be black, but he is also the son of a brain surgeon. Temba Bavuma went to an elite school.

In effect, we are actually seeing an extension of what happened in the dark days of the 1980's with the West Indies - the black players who thrive effectively do so as "honorary whites".

Like the odious Ozias Bute at Zimbabwe Cricket, the people pushing blind transformation - in government, not Cricket South Africa - don't care that they are weakening the team or that Kagiso Rabada is about as representative of disadvantaged black youth as Rihanna or Beyoncé.

To be honest, I don't believe that transformation is even possible.

In Australia, people from Sydney grow up watching rugby league, not Australian Rules, and the reverse is true in Melbourne.

I don't believe that black South Africans will give up football for cricket. I don't believe that they will give up football for rugby union.

It's a mirage, an illusion.

At best, there will occasionally be 1 or 2 black kids who have become good at cricket, probably in many cases by going the honorary white route like Rabada and Bavuma.

There will be more mixed race and Indian kids who make it, because they come from less poverty.

But the whole thing is at best a sham, window dressing to make the team look a bit less exclusively white.

But transformation into a team with five or less white players is only possible by enfeebling the team and by driving white players to emigrate.

It's starting to turn into a form of ethnic cleansing of cricket.

Apartheid was evil. But two wrongs don't make a right.

But the more you can persecute whites the better some feel.

 

[Bewal Express]

The Titans are forced not to play at least 3 Internationals. Is there anything more stupid than this? Why not just increase the number of teams? Why not create a developmental team? But that would show a up a lack of decent black players so you hide them in team of 11 and let the 5 white guys do the work. At most there around 20 non white players who are good enough to play at that level, the rest are passengers.

 

[MenInG]

Ngidi an example where the system is working!

 

[Markhor]

Very quiet here.

Hopefully Rabada and Ngidi can inspire a generation.

 

[Abdullah719]

As I mentioned earlier, South Africa exceeded the maximum White quota at Cape Town.

Ngidi is promising but absolutely raw - this is a clear political selection. They had to drop Bavuma to select De Villiers as well as FAF, and the Ngidi selection is there to balance that choice.

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] This is what you wrote on Day 1 of the 2nd Test - Thoughts now?

 

[Arham_PakFan]

So,was Steyn’s injury actually a blessing in disguise?

 

[Chrish]

The only selection I ever had issues with is Bavuma. But to his credit he did chip in with very useful runs in Australia. Rest of all "colored" player would make Xi based on merit anyways: Rabada, Amla, Philander, Maharaj etc. I am not gonna proclaim Lungi kid as next superstar like some people but he looks good.

 

[Chrish]

So,was Steyn’s injury actually a blessing in disguise?

Absence of Steyn will be felt as soon as they step into Asia..

 

[Ab Fan]

The only selection I ever had issues with is Bavuma. But to his credit he did chip in with very useful runs in Australia. Rest of all "colored" player would make Xi based on merit anyways: Rabada, Amla, Philander, Maharaj etc. I am not gonna proclaim Lungi kid as next superstar like some people but he looks good.

Not Bavuma actually JP was the real issue. But he did well to get retired himself.

 

[Chrish]

Not Bavuma actually JP was the real issue. But he did well to get retired himself.

yeah forgot about him.. I am not impressed with either one.

 

[soso_killer]

The biggest irony is people are spouting nonsense about stuff they know nothing about.
Here is a fun fact: CSA "racial" selection and "policies" have led SA to #1 in the world. These same policies made us competitive throughout the 2000s.

Do you enjoy watching Dale Steyn ripping teams apart? Then I'm sorry, you don't get to do that. Do you believe Steyn is among the top 5 Test bowlers of all time? Well, he can't be. He is part of CSA "regressive" policies. Can't have your cake and eat it.

Ever heard of CSA Rural Development Plan (something along those lines)? Ever since a farm boy who goes by the name of Lance Klusner emerged, CSA have always made it a personal mission to find players in remote and rural areas of the country. Make cricket accessible as possible to all, not just a fancy suburban sport for the elite.

It's through this initiative that we discovered our leading strike bowler of the 2000's, Makhaya Ntini. Remember him? Was he great? No of course not, but he was definitely an important component of our squad and a South African great. He did a great job for us and South Africans of all colours or creed thank him for his services.

Steyn hails from a small town in Limpopo. A nothing Province really. He was given an opportunity to represent the Notherns. Played just 7 first class matches before he earned a cap for SA. Here is the interesting bit, of those 7, 3 were for the Notherns (provincial) and only 4 were official first class games at franchise level for the Titans. Was Dale Steyn complete then? Not anywhere close. Feel free to visit his debut performances against England. He was loose and erratic, had zero control. CSA still gave him three games. No one should complain about white players not being given opportunities. (Unrelated but relevant, AB only played 2 official first class games (franchise level), 5 were for SA A team including a tour to England against the Lions, 7 for Easterns (Provincial/state level). Averaged 30 in his first three years of Test cricket, yet CSA never dropped him. Today AB is supposedly "the best player in the world", while CSA who've invested in these guys at a very young age with no experience are "racist").
White players aren't given opportunities? Ngidi played 9 official first class games. Like Steyn and AB he was fast tracked, difference is he went straight from school cricket to franchise level. But it's "offensive and regressive" when players of colour are forwarded similar opportunities?

Without these policies which had to be enforced they'd be no Philander. Remember Alfonso Thomas? How come he never represented South Africa? He was kept out because of conservative policies. He was definitely good enough to represent SA, the likes of Nel did, but who's moaning?

Kirsten took a punt on Vern and subsequently led SA to number one. Because of his pace he wouldn't even have gotten a franchise deal (a batsman who could bowl a bit) . Over 80% of black cricketers who played Provincial cricket didn't get Franchise deals. That's when the government intervened (over 75% whites got contracts IIRC). There were no official quotas in the 90's, why didn't SA dominate with white players from privileged backgrounds?
It's when CSA created an inclusive system that SA topped the summit. That is not a coincidence.

While our elite cricket schools provide the bulk of our players, but the diversity and flexibility of our system makes us stronger. Steyn didn't come from an elite school, others came from disadvantage backgrounds and were given scholarships Bavuma, Ngidi (his mother is a domestic worker) etc. Our talent remains diversified.

If there was a perfect system to develop players Australia would still be number one (I'm not talking about rankings), no politics, a sport for the elite in that country. But that's not the case. No system is perfect.

 

[soso_killer]

Absence of Steyn will be felt as soon as they step into Asia..

But Steyn should not have represented SA. He is from a small town in Limpopo. Only made the South African side because of "regressive" policies according to some. South Africa shouldn't miss him, they just can't.

We can't apply double standards.

 

[Chrish]

But Steyn should not have represented SA. He is from a small town in Limpopo. Only made the South African side because of "regressive" policies according to some. South Africa shouldn't miss him, they just can't.

We can't apply double standards.

Nah I for one have never claimed non-white folks have it easy in SA Cricket. I was just pointing out to the selections I didn't agree with. I have seen some posters using this narrative to troll and I would suggest you just ignore them rather than entertaining them.

 

[Last Monetarist]

India threw away the advantage in both tests, there could have been a vastly different tune being sung on here. The selectors must have been secretly delirious once they found Steyn had been ruled out for the series, otherwise there was an unenviable choice to be made in order to shoehorn a player of colour into the team. I'm sure this debate will be revisited once Australia tour in a month or so.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

So Khaya Zondo - in the team because of his talent and domestic record or is he another quota selection?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/318842.html

 

[TikkiTaka]

So Khaya Zondo - in the team because of his talent and domestic record or is he another quota selection?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/318842.html

Zondo was clearly a quota selection. His average and strike rates did not put him among the most deserving. The decline of SA cricket has started albeit slowly. More and more Kolpaks are gonna start happening.

 

[wrongun]

Zondo is a quota but so was Ntini for his first few years. It has to happen.

Perhaps they could lower the quota by 1 at international & state level but they need to keep it for another decade or so.

 

[Usman Chadda]

This is one of the weakest South African team I have seen in my lifetime. Mediocrity all round. The way their batters are playing spin, doesn't bode well for future tours of the subcontinent. I expect Bangladesh to beat South Africa in a test on their turners comprehensively if any two of Amla, du Plessis or De Villiers are not available.

 

[aloo paratha]

Quota selections are dumb as hell. Select the best players.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Things not looking good for SA. Their batting looks extremely mediocre.

 

[Napa]

But Steyn should not have represented SA. He is from a small town in Limpopo. Only made the South African side because of "regressive" policies according to some. South Africa shouldn't miss him, they just can't.

We can't apply double standards.

You are pointing out that CSA does 2 things:

1) Develop talent in otherwise neglected areas, such as Limpopo.

2) Enforce a quota system in the selection of teams.

It is not a "double standard", it is quite possible to do #1 without doing #2.

 

[Madplayer]

Quota system, if they are so hell bent on having it, should be limited to domestic cricket teams.

 

[AMSS]

Quota system will serve South Africa well in the future. Sure, they should calibrate it instead of dogmatically sticking to some sort of blanket practice but there's no other way to get blacks whole heartedly into the game other than through such policies.

 

[Madplayer]

Quota system will serve South Africa well in the future. Sure, they should calibrate it instead of dogmatically sticking to some sort of blanket practice but there's no other way to get blacks whole heartedly into the game other than through such policies.

Would you suggest a quota system for India to get the poorest people into the game?

 

[AMSS]

Would you suggest a quota system for India to get the poorest people into the game?

Is it the case that India's poorest are indifferent to cricket and do not follow or identify with the national team? Is the income disparity or even access to opportunities between any two groups (religion or caste) as lopsided as in South Africa? India already does provide quota to marginalized sections in more serious walks of life than sports - in admission to best colleges and jobs in government.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

South Africa escaped the Kagiso Rabada ban in Cape Town, but the team and the selectors may be in serious trouble with their own government after failing to hit selection targets for coloured and black players.

Despite fielding four “coloured” bowlers in the successful second Test, the Proteas are hopelessly behind on the quotas which are strictly enforced and measured from April to April. In the past the government banned cricket from bidding for international events when it did not hit the target.

The South African side must field an average of six “coloured” players — four coloured (54.5%) and two black players (18.8%) in each match. Figures posted on the Cricinfo website yesterday reveal the Test side has only fielded around 45 per cent players of colour in the 12-month period.

The controversial targets have, even when not so strictly enforced, caused a number of white players to leave. Kevin Pietersen, who retired this week after a successful career for England, abandoned South Africa when a coloured player was chosen over him in representative cricket. Two of AB de Villiers’ classmates left the country for similar reasons.

There was almost a walkout when Vernon Philander, who was considered unfit, was named ahead of Kyle Abbott in the semi-final of the 2015 World Cup. Abbott has since left to play in England.

Faf du Plessis claimed this week that it was his first priority when asked about the situation ahead of the third Test.

“As a guy that has a say in selection, I always strive to get that [target being met],” du Plessis said.

“So first priority will be to get those balances and targets right. If there were injuries that played a part then it’s difficult to make — for instance if Kagiso [Rabada] wasn’t available for this game then it’s a different story. But I also believe it’s my responsibility to look and see how we can achieve that.”

Lungi Ngidi, who was part of the attack at Port Elizabeth, has a toe injury and was replaced by Morne Morkel in Port Elizabeth — a situation which set the side further back in their quest to hit the targets.

“Lungi bowled really well in the previous game but he’s also got a little bit of a toe problem, which is probably why the consideration is happening,” du Plessis said. “What counts in Morne’s favour is that he is a fit bowler and can bowl long spells. That’s really important going into this Test match, especially if we have three seamers and a spinner. We’ll have our three bowlers that have the biggest tanks when it comes to bowling a lot of overs.”

The more controversial choice was Temba Bavuma, who comes in for Theunis de Bruyn. The incoming batsman has not played any first-class cricket this year.

“Ideally, you’d like guys to play cricket after an injury to get themselves back into form or time in the middle,” du Plessis said. “It doesn’t always work like that. Temba hasn’t played cricket, but he looks good in the nets for a while and his hand is fully recovered.”

Philander, who is designated a player of colour by the board, like the rest of the bowling unit who tore through Australia to win the second Test, does not need any affirmative action to find a place in the Test side.

Rabada took 11-150 at Port Elizabeth and at 22 has a record for winning matches that stands him alongside the greats of all time.

Few will forget Philander’s debut here at the Newlands stadium in 2011. The medium-pacer took 5-15 from seven overs as Australia collapsed miserably and were dismissed for just 47.

Memories of the collapse were sparked when England were sensationally routed for 58 on day one of the first Test against New Zealand at Auckland. New Zealand led by over 100 with seven wickets in hand at stumps.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...s/news-story/d754438f54e10a871dfb2229e63e7fe6

 

[barah_admi]

SA cricket has often missed their quota mark, there was a great piece about it a year or more ago.

 

[gazza619]

SA cricket has often missed their quota mark, there was a great piece about it a year or more ago.

So how does it work when they miss the quota? Do they get penalised?

For the sake of SA cricket they need to ease the rules of quota.

 

[barah_admi]

So how does it work when they miss the quota? Do they get penalised?

For the sake of SA cricket they need to ease the rules of quota.

The quota system is needed across SA to address the huge imbalance that apartheid cost the country and is still felt now, 18 years later.

As for what happens, I am not sure, the system always has a work around. I wish I could find the cricinfo article on the issue.

 

[The Viper]

Zubaryr Hamza will count as a coloured pick and he has scored lots of runs in the Domestic competition. So this selection is on merit.

 

[Buffet]

Zubaryr Hamza will count as a coloured pick and he has scored lots of runs in the Domestic competition. So this selection is on merit.

Wait for some one to harp about how he is selected only due to race. I have seen posts even about Vern. Some posters have no perspective.

 

[Junaids]

Even before today's ton, Bavuma had a decent FC record and had done relatively well in India. What made you think he would "drown" in international cricket?

That was written on 6 January 2016.

I had earlier written that black youngsters would not be motivated to play cricket by watching Temba Bavuma drown at international level.

But on 6 January 2016, Bavuma scored 102 not out against England on a featherbed Cape Town track on which South Africa scored 627-7 declared in response to England's 629-6 declared.

It was his 7th Test match.

Bavuma has played 24 more Tests in the 2 years and 11 months since then.

Without scoring another century. He's almost 29 years old now, and has 1 century in 31 Tests.

 

[Oligochaetes]

Quota system in sports, especially International sports is stupid and meaningless. Sportsmen should be selected on talent and not quotas. Reserve your silly quota systems for public sector jobs and such, why damage your sporting culture? Am sure such quota system will drive more talented cricketers to other countries. Why waste your time in a country when your career depends on the color of your skin?

Justice was served when Grant Elliott knocked South Africa out of the 2015 World Cup.

 

[Bewal Express]

That was written on 6 January 2016.

I had earlier written that black youngsters would not be motivated to play cricket by watching Temba Bavuma drown at international level.

But on 6 January 2016, Bavuma scored 102 not out against England on a featherbed Cape Town track on which South Africa scored 627-7 declared in response to England's 629-6 declared.

It was his 7th Test match.

Bavuma has played 24 more Tests in the 2 years and 11 months since then.

Without scoring another century. He's almost 29 years old now, and has 1 century in 31 Tests.

I am against Quotas but Bavuma looks the part and is certainly on par with other batsman in the country.

 

[AMSS]

Investing in Ntini has now yielded Proteas the likes of Ngidi and Rabada. Quota is absolutely needed and if there are white cricketers who are hard done by, tough.

 

[Bewal Express]

Investing in Ntini has now yielded Proteas the likes of Ngidi and Rabada. Quota is absolutely needed and if there are white cricketers who are hard done by, tough.

Without White people there is no cricket in SA. Black people don't watch cricket in grounds and if the Whites didn't turn up, cricket would go down the Zimbo route.

 

[CricFan2012]

Without White people there is no cricket in SA. Black people don't watch cricket in grounds and if the Whites didn't turn up, cricket would go down the Zimbo route.

This is pretty evident.

Quotas are a cancer to the game. Your place should be based on merit.

Black South African cricketers aren't hard done by anymore, people have become less racist in South Africa.

 

[gazza619]

Can we imagine what would have happened if there was a quota based selection in Pakistan or India? Cricket would have died a slow death i think.

 

[Junaids]

Investing in Ntini has now yielded Proteas the likes of Ngidi and Rabada. Quota is absolutely needed and if there are white cricketers who are hard done by, tough.

That’s really quaint.

No offence, but you obviously don’t know much about South Africa.

Ngidi and Rabada are from incredibly privileged backgrounds, much more so than any of the white players.

They speak perfect English, better than the Afrikaans speaking whites like FAF, AB, De Kock and Steyn.

Ngidi went to the elite boarding school Hilton College. If he hadn’t become an international cricketer he would have become an international Polo player.

And Rabada’s dad is a brain surgeon while his mother is a lawyer.

These are not humble black men motivated by the achievements of Makhaya Ntini.

They are modern day “honorary white men.”

 

[gazza619]

I find Beuran Hendricks and Andile Phehlukwayo very average cricketers. I am pretty sure that SA fans must be annoyed with this quota based selection.

 

[ElRaja]

That’s really quaint.

No offence, but you obviously don’t know much about South Africa.

Ngidi and Rabada are from incredibly privileged backgrounds, much more so than any of the white players.

They speak perfect English, better than the Afrikaans speaking whites like FAF, AB, De Kock and Steyn.

Ngidi went to the elite boarding school Hilton College. If he hadn’t become an international cricketer he would have become an international Polo player.

And Rabada’s dad is a brain surgeon while his mother is a lawyer.

These are not humble black men motivated by the achievements of Makhaya Ntini.

agreed until.....

They are modern day “honorary white men.”

that is a seriously ignorant comment if you understood what the context of being honorary white in apartheid South Africa meant.

 

[Junaids]

agreed until.....



that is a seriously ignorant comment if you understood what the context of being honorary white in apartheid South Africa meant.

My words were clumsy, I apologise.

My point is that the disadvantages that Bavuma faced were palliated by being given the same secondary education that privileged white men enjoy - not by schools for the general population improving or taking on cricket.

As for Rabada, he comes from incredible levels of privilege.

 

[Bewal Express]

I find Beuran Hendricks and Andile Phehlukwayo very average cricketers. I am pretty sure that SA fans must be annoyed with this quota based selection.

What's Miller done or Pretorius? Phlekwayo at least one a match.

 

[ElRaja]

My words were clumsy, I apologise.

My point is that the disadvantages that Bavuma faced were palliated by being given the same secondary education that privileged white men enjoy - not by schools for the general population improving or taking on cricket.

As for Rabada, he comes from incredible levels of privilege.

cricket being being the preserve of a privileged group is not unique to south africa, barring rash and ali id guess most England test cricketers are privately educated.

i agree with the essence of your post tho, the point being rabada, ngidi, are good enough to play for saf even if there was no quotas.

 

[gazza619]

What's Miller done or Pretorius? Phlekwayo at least one a match.

Fair point actually.

 

[ManFan]

I understand wanting to include black players for diversity's sake but has there been any statistical analysis of the advantages or disadvantages of the policy?

Rabada is the only world-class player but he emerged before this quota after he impressed in the 2014 U-19 WC.

 

[Rana]

Hendricks is decent

Pulawayo is bang average.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Hendricks is decent

Pulawayo is bang average.

Both have been far better than Miller

 

[Indiafan]

I understand wanting to include black players for diversity's sake but has there been any statistical analysis of the advantages or disadvantages of the policy?

Rabada is the only world-class player but he emerged before this quota after he impressed in the 2014 U-19 WC.

Are you talking about in terms of cricketing impact or social impact? Because I am sure the selectors and the government are aware that it might impact the quality of the team slightly. But they believe having more role models and hope, etc for minorities will be much better for a society as a whole and they are willing to sacrifice a few wins for that.

 

[cricketAXEpert]

South Africa needs to pay back for it did. And quota system is little bit of that payback. Winning is not everything. South Africa is still a top side.

 

[Hasan123]

South Africa will be fine. This forum overreacts after 1 or 2 defeats. They are testing new players. They still have JP,Ngidi,and Morris to come back. They haven't even played Markahm in 1 match! They have the players but the issue will be can they cope with the pressure of a WC.

 

[ARK Rafay]

This might not be a big issue. But I can say it certainly prevents south africa from picking up merit based selection. While they do have good players and I believe this is preventing them from picking up the best XI. And an event like World Cup this definitely harms South Africa.

 

[Titan24]

Irrespective of the talent they have in the team, it has definitley effected morale of the players. One of the reasons that played a role in ABD's early retirement. Rilley Russow, Ingram, Abbot, Olivier, Vijoen are missed but more than that it has effected the team environment and state of mind of some players in a big way.

 

[Titan24]

This might not be a big issue. But I can say it certainly prevents south africa from picking up merit based selection. While they do have good players and I believe this is preventing them from picking up the best XI. And an event like World Cup this definitely harms South Africa.

Not a lot of players available now, dont think of many who could have made this team better.

 

[Kianig89]

Same thing Rashid Latif was telling :24:

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This might not be a big issue. But I can say it certainly prevents south africa from picking up merit based selection. While they do have good players and I believe this is preventing them from picking up the best XI. And an event like World Cup this definitely harms South Africa.

Their worst bowler against BD looked to be the medium pacer guy Morris, and he's white.

 

[MMHS]

There are two quotas existing in SAF - non white quota & white quota. It had always been like that only the colour of privilege has shifted balance a little. Players like Chris Morris shouldn’t make it over Vernon and players like Andile are defamed as quota player despite justifying their selection. And, from days before 1970s, I can name several players enjoying an international career only for their skin colour - that’s after despite 90% of countries population inhumanly being kept out of elite sports like cricket, tennis & golf.

SAF white players are selfish, opportunist and they don’t own that shirt, neither proud to represent the team. PCA has blocked English counties picking foreigners (at times, it was almost unlimited), so they have opened a back door in the name of Kolpak and opportunistic SAF players are just availing a better pay using quota as an excuse.

Absolutely no reason to change this - SAF might go though a minor slump for few years, but this is the only way for them to save this game there. They need players from the people who own the country, proud to represent the shirt and emotionally attached to the people. Unfortunately hardly anyone can see the bluff, but truth is, even had there not been any quota, still I am certain lots of white players would have taken the easy way out through Kolpak. The earlier SAF integrates 90% of their majority in cricket, the better for their game.

 

[Markhor]

How come nobody says anything when players like Heino Kuhn, Dwaine Pretorius and Chris Morris stink out the joint ?

If these players were black people start screaming quota.

 

[Markhor]

Andile Phehlukwayo was their best bowler against us in the ODI series and so far in this WC.

Yet he still gets labelled quota.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

How come nobody says anything when players like Heino Kuhn, Dwaine Pretorius and Chris Morris stink out the joint ?

If these players were black people start screaming quota.

Good point. So many people are just subconsciously racist

 

[barah_admi]

Good point. So many people are just subconsciously racist

Exactly this and also there is a misunderstanding of South Africa's quota regulations. First of all, teh cricket side has not always adhered to it and the rules itself are so vague, I bet most people do not even know that Quinton De Kock is actually a quota player.

Anyway, South Africa's best players are those that would be considered quota and some of their worse are white.

 

[barah_admi]

Irrespective of the talent they have in the team, it has definitley effected morale of the players. One of the reasons that played a role in ABD's early retirement. Rilley Russow, Ingram, Abbot, Olivier, Vijoen are missed but more than that it has effected the team environment and state of mind of some players in a big way.

When and where did ABD say he retired due to the quota system? Or it was one of his reasons? And what was his issue with it?

Olivier leaving SA had nothing to do with the quota system and everything to do with money. The man was greedy.

 

[HussainRx8]

The quota system will spell the end of SA cricket

Discuss.

 

[Markhor]

The biggest problem is a mismanaged economy. The weak rand means many players have pursued Kolpak contracts (which might change with Brexit). Losing guys like Morkel, Russouw and Abbott is a blow.

That said SA still have a strong school system unlike us, and there are some promising talents in domestic cricket like Malan and Hamza.

However their mindset in big tournament matches has to change. Otis Gibson doesn't strike me as a great coach either.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Lost a test series at home to the mighty Sri Lanka and now an early exit from the WC looms - it's silly to blame it on just one thing (race based quotas) however is this policy playing a part in their demise? Many of the players who have left to pursue Kolpak deals would have done so with the quota system in mind imo.