Either improve the domestic system or select the performers from the current domestic system

[JibranAnsari]

When batsmen score , we hear that the bowlers aren't good enough in domestic and when bowlers take wickets we blame the batsmen that they aren't good enough. Quality of pitches , quality of the balls used and umpiring standards are also blamed for the success of these performers. Players can only perform in the conditions they are provided , bowlers job is to take wickets and batsmans job is to score runs. How are we going to guage our upcoming cricketers then? Yah someone will catch eye like babar azam from very young age but whats the fail safe if this method does not work at all. Top performers in our domestic go unnoticed , they are either deemed to be bullying on poor bowlers or the top wicket taker is too slow for our liking. So from this system how are we exactly going to produce any quality players? PCB does not seem much interested in improving quality of pitches and playing conditions.

 

[MenInG]

When batsmen score , we hear that the bowlers aren't good enough in domestic and when bowlers take wickets we blame the batsmen that they aren't good enough. Quality of pitches , quality of the balls used and umpiring standards are also blamed for the success of these performers. Players can only perform in the conditions they are provided , bowlers job is to take wickets and batsmans job is to score runs. How are we going to guage our upcoming cricketers then? Yah someone will catch eye like babar azam from very young age but whats the fail safe if this method does not work at all. Top performers in our domestic go unnoticed , they are either deemed to be bullying on poor bowlers or the top wicket taker is too slow for our liking. So from this system how are we exactly going to produce any quality players? PCB does not seem much interested in improving quality of pitches and playing conditions.

You seem to be looking for some magic formula here. Fact is that we always need a blend of old and new. No selectors will be strong enough to make wholesale changes

 

[Asim2Good]

in recent domestic matches, couple of bowlers had avg of 16-17, do you really think they are that good ?
I have stopped caring about Pak domestic records. its either low quality balls been used or sub standards pitches. something have to be changed in Pak domestic cricket.

 

[JibranAnsari]

in recent domestic matches, couple of bowlers had avg of 16-17, do you really think they are that good ?
I have stopped caring about Pak domestic records. its either low quality balls been used or sub standards pitches. something have to be changed in Pak domestic cricket.

so why dont we improve our domestic cricket then , thats what creating confusion at the moment. Like you say that they arent good enough then why do they perform better than some rated above them in the same competition against the same batsmen.

 

[JibranAnsari]

You seem to be looking for some magic formula here. Fact is that we always need a blend of old and new. No selectors will be strong enough to make wholesale changes

I want to see a system where performances are rewarded instead of just putting them in the bin in the name of poor domestic system.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Actually I agree with op, you can say stats are skewed for bowlers but batsman need to be selected on merit , you can't select all 6 on merit there will always be some potential talent selection but select at least 4 on merit. Nair, Pandey, Jadeja , Vijay, Pujara, Rahul all were selected with great FC performance and see how they all have come good.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Most domestic performers were already given chances and had failed miserably so there is no hope in domestic performers.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Most domestic performers were already given chances and had failed miserably so there is no hope in domestic performers.

you mean sadaf hussain , mir hamza , mohammad abbas?

 

[MRSN]

I'm not defending the system but the likes of Yousuf and Younis and Waqar,Wasim,Akhter,Amir came through this system. What is needed to be done is improve the quality,increase salaries,get more matches televised and most importantly select deserving candidates who perform in domestic cricket. If you are going to pick players based on cricinfo and media reports then who knows what kind of players they would turn out to be. What's important is having a good committed selection committee that goes in the ground and follows all games and look for good players.

 

[Asim2Good]

so why dont we improve our domestic cricket then , thats what creating confusion at the moment. Like you say that they arent good enough then why do they perform better than some rated above them in the same competition against the same batsmen.

No one want to change system in all honesty.
ALL of them just talk n talk when they are not part of PCB ( like javed miandad etc)
Others ll stay away and ll not help as its easy to criticize ( like wasim etc)
None of past players try to change system when they had all powers in their playing days.

System ll not change when we have70-80 yr old running show and when they dont have cricket experience.

 

[Dark Magician]

What's the point of a having a domestic competition if you don't trust the result? Until you guys improve your domestic competition, you'll always have problems. This reliance on talent is useless. Build proper systems and the quality will emerge regularly and not this hit and miss selection criteria you guys are using

 

[Markhor]

Its interesting when you hear English, South African and Australian fans say the standard of their domestic cricket has gone down in recent years. And yet our standard of domestic competition is still lightyears behind !

Let me ask people this. How can you groom batsmen to be successful on hard, bouncy pitches in Australia and South Africa when all they're exposed to is the damp, low bounce filth that the PCB farmers (sorry, "curators") produce in FC cricket ? How can you develop a back-foot game on pitches that are more suited towards limited, front-foot nurdlers ?

How can you groom bowlers to bowl on flat wickets (and the wickets in this series have been generally flat) when they're given grassy surfaces and play their FC cricket during the most seamer-friendly weather in Pakistan during Oct-Dec ? Pitch the ball on a length and let the conditions do the work for you. No wonder we have a generation of bowlers clueless as to how to use the new ball.

How can you groom seamers to bowl 25+ overs in an innings when the max. amount of overs played each day of a FC match is around 65-70 ? No wonder our seamers start huffing and puffing in their third and fourth spells. And when there is lack of proper fitness and nutritional programmes at grassroots and domestic level you have a generation of unfit cricketers unable to cope with the rigours of an international tour.

How can our domestic system be an effective barometer to judge who is ready for international cricket when proven international failures like Khurrum Manzoor, Kamran Akmal, Salman Butt and Awais Zia look like frickin' Bradmans at domestic level ?

How can you groom international-standard players when Pakistani coaches at grassroots and domestic level can't even identify the most basic of technical flaws in young players ?

And yet this is the system we have. There'll be individuals who'll come along like Younis Khan, Wasim Akram, Inzamam-ul-Haq, Waqar Younis, Zaheer Abbas, Majid Khan, Saeed Anwar, Hanif Mohammad and others who emerge IN SPITE of the system and not because of it. Many of our greats of the 70s, 80s and 90s were lucky to have the opportunity of playing in county cricket where they rubbed shoulders with quality coaches, learned from other top players and were exposed to foreign conditions on a regular basis instead of touring countries outside Asia every 5 or 6 years like this generation.

Now that is no longer an option - and Pakistan will now pray for another set of individuals to come along and perform miracles. I'm afraid in an increasingly professionalised world, where more sporting countries are adopting a more structural approach to attain success, Pakistan will be left behind. Arthur, Inzamam and maybe Misbah himself if he becomes an Andrew Strauss-like figure post-retirement need to begin the work of professionalising an unprofessional system.

 

[muqarrab]

Nothing new, it has been like this since the 80s, or well Imran Khan's time, performance in domestic cricket doesn't matter as it won't lead to a national team call up. Its a chicken and egg situation, domestic circuit is poor or people performing in it cannot be selected because they may have missed the u19 or u21 stream. Over the last 30-25 years, other than a few exceptions, players who piled runs or took loads of wickets in domestic circuit were not able to do the same for the national team, if selected i.e. Domestic circuit right now is a giant racket used to line people's pocket. Your nurseries are supposed be clubs, there is no club cricket anymore. You can polish all talent you want in academies, but there is no substitute for playing in matches. I would like to question the rationale of academies, they should be center of excellence, inn our case they seem to be an alternative to domestic cricket. Can you really team people like umar akmal to build an innings in an academy? Shouldn't he be asked to play domestic cricket and make buckets of runs. This could only mean that the organizers have low confidence in domestic circuit. In a nustshell, i completely agree with you but this question has been around since the 80s and most like will be around in another 20 yrs.

 

[asfandyar]

There are four categories of players:

1) Perform in domestics and internationals (Younis, Misbah)

2) Perform in domestics only (Mark Ramprakash, Rahat Ali)

3) Perform in internationals only (some PPers think these exist)

4) Perform in neither (Iftikhar Ahmed, Umar Amin)

 

[Syed1]

There are four categories of players:

1) Perform in domestics and internationals (Younis, Misbah)

2) Perform in domestics only (Mark Ramprakash, Rahat Ali)

3) Perform in internationals only (some PPers think these exist)

4) Perform in neither (Iftikhar Ahmed, Umar Amin)

I'll have you know that Uncle Iftikhar is the 5th or 6th highest scorer in this season's domestic cricket

 

[asfandyar]

I'll have you know that Uncle Iftikhar is the 5th or 6th highest scorer in this season's domestic cricket

Then move him to 2!

 

[Bewal Express]

Another pointless discussion on domestic cricket, no change will come because it would mean the PCB actually doing something for cricket rather going on tours and having their operations being paid for.

 

[Stallion__]

It should have been "First improve the system then selects players from it". Selecting top performers from a broken system is not a solution.

 

[moghul]

When batsmen score , we hear that the bowlers aren't good enough in domestic and when bowlers take wickets we blame the batsmen that they aren't good enough. Quality of pitches , quality of the balls used and umpiring standards are also blamed for the success of these performers. Players can only perform in the conditions they are provided , bowlers job is to take wickets and batsmans job is to score runs. How are we going to guage our upcoming cricketers then? Yah someone will catch eye like babar azam from very young age but whats the fail safe if this method does not work at all. Top performers in our domestic go unnoticed , they are either deemed to be bullying on poor bowlers or the top wicket taker is too slow for our liking. So from this system how are we exactly going to produce any quality players? PCB does not seem much interested in improving quality of pitches and playing conditions.

You're absolutely right, we have to pick players from domestic cricket. But the selects should be a paid one who would watch the player in action and not just stats. You have to pick one with more talent than the others. In the past players like Wasim, Waqar, Aaqib, Saeed Anwar, Inzimama , even Yusuf were picked as someone saw exceptional talent in them compared to others. They were not the highest wicket takers or ones with most runs in domestic cricket.

I'm sure our selectors don't make that effort. Otherwise how can they have not picked up a new talent from domestic season this year. Have not seen but wondering what's wrong in picking Fahim Ashraf, the guy looks a good fast bowling all rounder. Among young batsmen Imam ul Haq seems to me the most talented. I saw him batting couple of times.

 

[MMHS]

Ideally, National selectors should never look for talent hunt - rather they should look for options to fit in a particular strategy. This is more or less in every sports - take soccer; it's the Club managers that find/scout/groom talent; play them in league & the National Manager's (who is CS in Football) difficultly is to find the best players to fit into his system.

For example, say Southgate, somehow grows a pair of balls & decides to play football, rather than a mix of hoof-ball & Yanki style football - so, he changes his formation from static 442 to a more dynamic & fluid 4231 or interchanging 433 or diamond 442. Now, will he arrange talunt hunt program to find a Kante for his holding DM, Pirolo for his deep lying play maker, Hazard & Muller for his winger & Pogba to play behind Kane - OR, he'll pick available best players from weekend EPL matches that fits his strategy & formation?

Same goes for cricket - take this ANZ tour. We know here in PP, so Inzi must know - he had been there at least 20 times; that you need seemers on Kiwi green tops, you need seem bowling all-rounders who'll improve the tail & still be effective with his 120KM dibly dobly, if they can kiss the green top on sweet spot (with ball, that is). In AUS, he'll need couple of express bowlers who can run all day, an offie to cater the 7 lefti in Aussie line up & couple of solid openers who can negotiate the first 20 overs of Kookaburra.

Now, he can't arrange talent hunt program for that. I have only seen in PAK that before every series, they call 30-35 players for camp & try to pick players from there - it's like stop EPL for a week & call 50 Pom foot-laborers for a look & select 23 of them for next weeks WC qualifiers. Ideally, Inzi, Arthur & Misbah should chalk out plan, analyze pros & cons, identify opportunities & best possible formation - then pick the best 16/17 to fit the strategy. For this, they have to bank on domestic stats - no other way.

They can't call 5 offies for a look on who should they pick - just one example. For that, they must have reliable domestic stats - of course individual preference is there, eye for talent has to be there, vision has to be there - how this guy is going to bowl against wind, on bounce, on cracks ...... but also, number has to be reliable. The subjective call should not be about who is more talented, rather based on diversity in domestic wickets & respective stats of the offies, one can take a decision which offie to take to AUS & which one to India. That's same in football as well - if Southgate changes his formation to interchanging 433 - he'll have to pick Henderson & Lallana as these two are playing well in that system at Anfield & fitting the role; Sturridge as well for an interchanging front 3; but, if it's structured 442 diamond formation, may be players from Chelsea & Spurs will get preference & I can categorically say that Kane & Alli will start in that formation. For 4231, he has to bring Walcott ......

At present, PAK's CS job is most difficult & confusing one.

 

[New Yorker]

in recent domestic matches, couple of bowlers had avg of 16-17, do you really think they are that good ?
I have stopped caring about Pak domestic records. its either low quality balls been used or sub standards pitches. something have to be changed in Pak domestic cricket.

I dont care how good they really are. If everyone is averaging 16 you pick the guy who is averaging 12. Everyone bowls and bats on the same pitches. Pick the top three and give them a run each of 5 - 6 Tests. If they fail rinse and repeat. The great myth of this PP is that scores of bowlers every year are given a cap only to fail miserably. In reality hardly anyone is getting a chance. While Rahat is going on his 21st Test...

 

[Asim2Good]

I dont care how good they really are. If everyone is averaging 16 you pick the guy who is averaging 12. Everyone bowls and bats on the same pitches. Pick the top three and give them a run each of 5 - 6 Tests. If they fail rinse and repeat. The great myth of this PP is that scores of bowlers every year are given a cap only to fail miserably. In reality hardly anyone is getting a chance. While Rahat is going on his 21st Test...

alot of players been given chance at international level recently.
look at Rahat,Imran,Ehsan Adil domestic avg. nad look how they look at international level while compare to other other team's bolwers
even Bilawal Batti have avg of 23 in domestic.

give me a single bowler in Pakistan at moment, when you see him bowl and and you say this guy is international standard. give me one single bowler.

 

[LordJames]

Despite all the talk about improvements, lets face the fact that it won't be happening anytime soon.


So we have no choice but to cherry pick those who head and shoulders (in stats) above the rest and someone with an eye for the Talent needs to watch them play.

I am not saying that those with excellent stats need to be given the Pakistani Cap but I am saying that since they are rising above the rest in the same playing conditions they do need to be looked at.


We don't have any other choice.

 

[New Yorker]

alot of players been given chance at international level recently.
look at Rahat,Imran,Ehsan Adil domestic avg. nad look how they look at international level while compare to other other team's bolwers
even Bilawal Batti have avg of 23 in domestic.

give me a single bowler in Pakistan at moment, when you see him bowl and and you say this guy is international standard. give me one single bowler.

Imran has justified his selection, his international average is around 26.

Deciding whether someone is international standard by looking at him is not the way to go. That was my point.

You give them a try and if they fail they fail and you move on. What better method do you know?

Rahat is a perfect example. He was good in domestics but not the best in terms of performance. He was selected because coaches liked the looks of him. He was a beast in the nets. He had a bit of extra nip. B

But he did not have the consistency to perform well at international level. And there were signs of this in domestics, where he was unable to take 10fers.

And all of this would not have been a big deal if he had been rested after 7-10 mediocre Tests. The problem
is when selectors persist with mediocrity because they are afraid to take risks.

 

[Ellipsism]

Imran has justified his selection, his international average is around 26.

Deciding whether someone is international standard by looking at him is not the way to go. That was my point.

You give them a try and if they fail they fail and you move on. What better method do you know?

Rahat is a perfect example. He was good in domestics but not the best in terms of performance. He was selected because coaches liked the looks of him. He was a beast in the nets. He had a bit of extra nip. B

But he did not have the consistency to perform well at international level. And there were signs of this in domestics, where he was unable to take 10fers.

And all of this would not have been a big deal if he had been rested after 7-10 mediocre Tests. The problem
is when selectors persist with mediocrity because they are afraid to take risks.

Imran averages 30 odd...

Justified his selection by receiving an epic phainty from Warner.

 

[Pete Rose]

I think improving domestics is just one of those insurmountable objectives people set, to justify poor performance. Pakistans problem is that it has too many players who are timid and mentally shot when faced with a high pressure situation. They would do themselves a big favor by admitting this and working on the mental side of their game

 

[Asim2Good]

Imran has justified his selection, his international average is around 26.

Deciding whether someone is international standard by looking at him is not the way to go. That was my point.

You give them a try and if they fail they fail and you move on. What better method do you know?

Rahat is a perfect example. He was good in domestics but not the best in terms of performance. He was selected because coaches liked the looks of him. He was a beast in the nets. He had a bit of extra nip. B

But he did not have the consistency to perform well at international level. And there were signs of this in domestics, where he was unable to take 10fers.

And all of this would not have been a big deal if he had been rested after 7-10 mediocre Tests. The problem
is when selectors persist with mediocrity because they are afraid to take risks.

that was my point, most of players given chances, justified their places in team.
but we as fans want them out of team as soon as possible once they fail (in single series or test) or when we start to compare with starc,kohli etc etc

 

[zeer]

Who said that they came through this structure, The names you mentioned were/are products of the 1995 constitutional based system and structure, which was changed in year 2002 by Ramiz Raja and since then the decline in Pakistan cricket started downwards, they (Rtd. Lt Gen TauqeerZia and Ramiz Raja) changed that structure just to bring Junaid Zia to play for Pakistan, that system would have never allowed low quality players like Junaid Zia to play for Pakistan, it was so well organized system that each and every player have been looked after that only the deserving and top quality players would have played for Pakistan, since the change in the structure in 2002 there have been too many players debuted and played for Pakistan and look at our team's performances which speaks for itself.

 

[zeer]

When batsmen score , we hear that the bowlers aren't good enough in domestic and when bowlers take wickets we blame the batsmen that they aren't good enough. Quality of pitches , quality of the balls used and umpiring standards are also blamed for the success of these performers. Players can only perform in the conditions they are provided , bowlers job is to take wickets and batsmans job is to score runs. How are we going to guage our upcoming cricketers then? Yah someone will catch eye like babar azam from very young age but whats the fail safe if this method does not work at all. Top performers in our domestic go unnoticed , they are either deemed to be bullying on poor bowlers or the top wicket taker is too slow for our liking. So from this system how are we exactly going to produce any quality players? PCB does not seem much interested in improving quality of pitches and playing conditions.

There plenty of angles to look though, you are right at some points, the players (performers) aren't to blame, but one can not take risk to play that many players only the performances of domestics games, there is a procedure which needs to be followed which used to happened in past, the top performers should play A and under 23 tours performances in side matches against touring teams where they can monitor either they are the international material or not, then they might get their reward for their domestic performances, Plus most important aspect of modern day cricket is psyical fitness and endurance if they are not fit enough for international cricket standards then i am afraid their performances at domestic cricket will be null and void.
There too many things which one can look at.

 

[zeer]

Nothing new, it has been like this since the 80s, or well Imran Khan's time, performance in domestic cricket doesn't matter as it won't lead to a national team call up. Its a chicken and egg situation, domestic circuit is poor or people performing in it cannot be selected because they may have missed the u19 or u21 stream. Over the last 30-25 years, other than a few exceptions, players who piled runs or took loads of wickets in domestic circuit were not able to do the same for the national team, if selected i.e. Domestic circuit right now is a giant racket used to line people's pocket. Your nurseries are supposed be clubs, there is no club cricket anymore. You can polish all talent you want in academies, but there is no substitute for playing in matches. I would like to question the rationale of academies, they should be center of excellence, inn our case they seem to be an alternative to domestic cricket. Can you really team people like umar akmal to build an innings in an academy? Shouldn't he be asked to play domestic cricket and make buckets of runs. This could only mean that the organizers have low confidence in domestic circuit. In a nustshell, i completely agree with you but this question has been around since the 80s and most like will be around in another 20 yrs.

Since the regional structure everything is change, corruption at the roots of Pakistan cricket has weaken our national team, Do you think the presidents of the regions appointed by the clubs with their votes will not favor and reject some players (talented and not talented)? This thing which has changed in 2002 cricket structural changed has destroyed our cricket, previously it was association based system so no president of the association can be blackmailed by the clubs, so the selections of players were transparent back then and that was the reason we produced talented players, which has stopped since 2002.

 

[zeer]

I'm not defending the system but the likes of Yousuf and Younis and Waqar,Wasim,Akhter,Amir came through this system. What is needed to be done is improve the quality,increase salaries,get more matches televised and most importantly select deserving candidates who perform in domestic cricket. If you are going to pick players based on cricinfo and media reports then who knows what kind of players they would turn out to be. What's important is having a good committed selection committee that goes in the ground and follows all games and look for good players.

Who said that they came through this structure, The names you mentioned were/are products of the 1995 constitutional based system and structure, which was changed in year 2002 by Ramiz Raja and since then the decline in Pakistan cricket started downwards, they (Rtd. Lt Gen TauqeerZia and Ramiz Raja) changed that structure just to bring Junaid Zia to play for Pakistan, that system would have never allowed low quality players like Junaid Zia to play for Pakistan, it was so well organized system that each and every player have been looked after that only the deserving and top quality players would have played for Pakistan, since the change in the structure in 2002 there have been too many players debuted and played for Pakistan and look at our team's performances which speaks for itself.

 

[zeer]

You seem to be looking for some magic formula here. Fact is that we always need a blend of old and new. No selectors will be strong enough to make wholesale changes

Magic formula is restoration of 1995 constitution and give them 5 years our cricket will be back where it was.

 

[muqarrab]

Magic formula is restoration of 1995 constitution and give them 5 years our cricket will be back where it was.

Which 1995 constitution?