England have not just won, but have humiliated India, the "number 1" team

[InziRules]

Have lost every game outside Lord’s and Oval since 2001. What do you want me to say.

You say England, because Oval and Lords is in England.

This is like me saying that India haven't won outside of Johannesburg in South Africa

 

[Mamoon]

You say England, because Oval and Lords is in England.

This is like me saying that India haven't won outside of Johannesburg in South Africa

The contrast between our performances in the London venues and the rest of England is too big to ignore. If India keep winning in Johannesburg and keep losing elsewhere in South Africa, it won’t be wrong to point it out.

 

[InziRules]

The contrast between our performances in the London venues and the rest of England is too big to ignore. If India keep winning in Johannesburg and keep losing elsewhere in South Africa, it won’t be wrong to point it out.

Well, it's true, you can check stats

 

[Mamoon]

Well, it's true, you can check stats

Then it isn’t a problem to point out than India win in Johannesburg only, although I am not sure if they have lost at every other venue since 2001.

 

[InziRules]

Then it isn’t a problem to point out than India win in Johannesburg only, although I am not sure if they have lost at every other venue since 2001.

Nope, they've won one in Durban, two in Johannesburg, but the Durban won is the 2006 tour. So technically 12 years since they last won anywhere but Johannesburg

And I'm not making this point, I'm saying it's a completely stupid point

 

[Mamoon]

Nope, they've won one in Durban, two in Johannesburg, but the Durban won is the 2006 tour. So technically 12 years since they last won anywhere but Johannesburg

And I'm not making this point, I'm saying it's a completely stupid point

So your comparison failed. Okay.

 

[slipcatch]

As I said, I don’t care about performances in individual countries. India is a better all-round team than Pakistan and does better in most countries. That is all that matters to me.

Pakistan are better at Lord’s and Oval though, but there is a lot more to cricket.

Should have gone to micro level, ball by ball. Lol, or perhaps, frame by frame of transmission. Lol

 

[Titan24]

I am upset because Pakistan is ranked 7 and India is ranked 1. I set myself high standards, couldn’t care less about doing better than India in country x or country y when they ranked well above us and boast the best batsman in the world - who is better than any batsman we have ever produced.

I hope when Pak plays in UAE later this year and improves its ranking if wins you will accept the rankings.

If not than this Indian team ranking is as artificial of Pak in 2016 or the ranking which we will get after this small home season.

For India to maintain their rankings they are playing Windies at home in between the eng and aus tours.

To me Test rankings are as artificial as they can get. ODIs and T20s are more objective as the conditions have mostly become flatter throughout the cricketing circuits, so everybody plays on almost even playing field.

 

[the_outsider]

I hope when Pak plays in UAE later this year and improves its ranking if wins you will accept the rankings.

If not than this Indian team ranking is as artificial of Pak in 2016 or the ranking which we will get after this small home season.

For India to maintain their rankings they are playing Windies at home in between the eng and aus tours.

To me Test rankings are as artificial as they can get. ODIs and T20s are more objective as the conditions have mostly become flatter throughout the cricketing circuits, so everybody plays on almost even playing field.

India simply plays more tests than Pakistan. It is not that difficult to understand.

Our home seasons are longer than Pakistan's and our away tours are also longer. For example: Pakistan just played 2 tests in England this year while we played 5.


And if home advantage was the sole reason for India's dominance at home then other teams should be ranked #1 too.

Australia and India have both played 21 home tests in the last 4 years. Why is Australia ranked at 3?

England have played even more - 35 test matches at home in the last 4 years. Why are they ranked number 5?


India is not number 1 because it plays tests at home. Every team plays at home. India is number 1 because it never loses at home.

India has lost 1 out of 23 test matches at home in the last 5+ years. How many has Pakistan lost? 6 out of 18.

That's 33% of home games lost for Pakistan!! You lose 1/3 of all your matches at home. India's lost percentage is 4.3%.

That is why India is ranked at 1 and Pakistan at 7.

 

[warcry]

I would like to remind everyone that pakistan can win in england outside london. its as if every body forgot the test win against australia at Headingly in 2010.

 

[Mamoon]

India simply plays more tests than Pakistan. It is not that difficult to understand.

Our home seasons are longer than Pakistan's and our away tours are also longer. For example: Pakistan just played 2 tests in England this year while we played 5.


And if home advantage was the sole reason for India's dominance at home then other teams should be ranked #1 too.

Australia and India have both played 21 home tests in the last 4 years. Why is Australia ranked at 3?

England have played even more - 35 test matches at home in the last 4 years. Why are they ranked number 5?


India is not number 1 because it plays tests at home. Every team plays at home. India is number 1 because it never loses at home.

India has lost 1 out of 23 test matches at home in the last 5+ years. How many has Pakistan lost? 6 out of 18.

That's 33% of home games lost for Pakistan!! You lose 1/3 of all your matches at home. India's lost percentage is 4.3%.

That is why India is ranked at 1 and Pakistan at 7.

[MENTION=142782]Darkrai[/MENTION]

Please read this post, it will help clear your confusion. It also nullifies your theory that Australia, England and South Africa will also be number 1 if they play a lot of home matches.

 

[Mamoon]

I would like to remind everyone that pakistan can win in england outside london. its as if every body forgot the test win against australia at Headingly in 2010.

Correct, but that wasn’t against England. We haven’t beaten England outside London since Old Trafford 2001.

 

[shaz619]

Correct, but that wasn’t against England. We haven’t beaten England outside London since Old Trafford 2001.

England have not beaten Pakistan in a Test series home or away for almost 10 years now, that stat your bringing up about not outside London is nitpicking of the highest order and one of the most ridiculous

 

[Darkrai]

[MENTION=142782]Darkrai[/MENTION]

Please read this post, it will help clear your confusion. It also nullifies your theory that Australia, England and South Africa will also be number 1 if they play a lot of home matches.

I think you misunderstood. I said consecutive home series. If India can maintain number 1 ranking by playing home series and then an away series in Aus, Eng, or SA then i will admit i am wrong.

Example: Eng played home series with Pakistan in 2016, then an away series to BD and India, then home to SA, then away in AUS and NZ, the home against Pakistan and India.

 

[the_outsider]

I think you misunderstood. I said consecutive home series. If India can maintain number 1 ranking by playing home series and then an away series in Aus, Eng, or SA then i will admit i am wrong.

Example: Eng played home series with Pakistan in 2016, then an away series to BD and India, then home to SA, then away in AUS and NZ, the home against Pakistan and India.

Since 2015, India have played 13 test series. 6 out of those 13 series have been home series. That's 46%

Since 2015, England have played 15 test series. 8 out of 15 series have been home series. That's 53%

 

[Kashmirilion]

Correct, but that wasn’t against England. We haven’t beaten England outside London since Old Trafford 2001.

Didn't you say at the start of the series let India get to London Venues they will win there?

 

[James]

Pakistan has had the wood on England for at least 15 years now, there is no doubt about that.

England has credibly traded blows with most teams this century, however we have usually been chasing our tails and losing Test matches by the handful when we have faced Pakistan.

The one exception to this trend was the infamous 2010 tour, but everything was in England’s favour for that one - impossible batting conditions, no Yousuf, no Younis, no Misbah, Kamran Akmal, Mazhar Majeed, a fixer as captain, the team generally full of corrupt players and compromised by cheating - and the English still managed to shell a Test!

 

[Chrish]

Agreed. For some obscure reason, Pakistan has managed to be crap everywhere other than in England.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Pakistan has had the wood on England for at least 15 years now, there is no doubt about that.

England has credibly traded blows with most teams this century, however we have usually been chasing our tails and losing Test matches by the handful when we have faced Pakistan.

The one exception to this trend was the infamous 2010 tour, but everything was in England’s favour for that one - impossible batting conditions, no Yousuf, no Younis, no Misbah, Kamran Akmal, Mazhar Majeed, a fixer as captain, the team generally full of corrupt players and compromised by cheating - and the English still managed to shell a Test!

We were comfortably second-best on the 2006 tour too.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Pakistan has had the wood on England for at least 15 years now, there is no doubt about that.

England has credibly traded blows with most teams this century, however we have usually been chasing our tails and losing Test matches by the handful when we have faced Pakistan.

The one exception to this trend was the infamous 2010 tour, but everything was in England’s favour for that one - impossible batting conditions, no Yousuf, no Younis, no Misbah, Kamran Akmal, Mazhar Majeed, a fixer as captain, the team generally full of corrupt players and compromised by cheating - and the English still managed to shell a Test!

15? Make it 30 years. England didn't win a single series against Pak in England during the entirety of 90s.

 

[Mamoon]

Didn't you say at the start of the series let India get to London Venues they will win there?

Yes, we are better than India in London venues. Congratulations.

 

[Napa]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...way=2;opposition=7;template=results;type=team

Pak is the one country where SL has won the max tests away.

Here is your home work for today - Find out how many Tests SL has won in India

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

What your are trying to say i have no idea just like pakistan,india there is also stats of SL AWay from home

He means you should also count Tests played in SL, and not just the SENA countries.

 

[saeed5646]

Pakistan has had the wood on England for at least 15 years now, there is no doubt about that.

England has credibly traded blows with most teams this century, however we have usually been chasing our tails and losing Test matches by the handful when we have faced Pakistan.

The one exception to this trend was the infamous 2010 tour, but everything was in England’s favour for that one - impossible batting conditions, no Yousuf, no Younis, no Misbah, Kamran Akmal, Mazhar Majeed, a fixer as captain, the team generally full of corrupt players and compromised by cheating - and the English still managed to shell a Test!

we would have won that series what a big opportunity pak miss at that time

 

[saeed5646]

He means you should also count Tests played in SL, and not just the SENA countries.

why should Sl be include they are not NON asian team Neither in t0p 4 which do make sense to not Include them along with AUS,SA,ENG,NZ

 

[shariqnoor]

As I said, I don’t care about performances in individual countries. India is a better all-round team than Pakistan and does better in most countries. That is all that matters to me.

Pakistan are better at Lord’s and Oval though, but there is a lot more to cricket.

Just for my understanding, what is exactly the point behind this statement? What are you trying to conclude? Is London not a part of England? Or that winning in London is no big deal? Or that in order to recognize Pakistan's achievements in England this decade, Pakistan needs to win outside London because it's not English enough?

 

[Usman Chadda]

Just for my understanding, what is exactly the point behind this statement? What are you trying to conclude? Is London not a part of England? Or that winning in London is no big deal? Or that in order to recognize Pakistan's achievements in England this decade, Pakistan needs to win outside London because it's not English enough?

He’s scarred from this mauling his favourite team has received. So much hope, so much passion before the South Africa and England tours, all has come crashing down on him. Deserving humiliation

 

[Invincible Gujjar]

Well Indian fans were expecting too much from this side which is justified due to them being no.1 so I think in a way no. 1 team has been humiliated.4-1 is really awful result.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Why am I not surprised to see Mamoon in this thread talking about Pakistan's shortcomings rather than glorious India.


In answer to the OP, I have to say I agree, and pretty sure most Indians would as well, England have humiliated India, they have wiped the floor with them. Hopefully it will bring some humility to their board and fans who have been hijacking the game for the past few years, throwing their weight around with little regard for the greater good of the game.

 

[barah_admi]

Not only in the tests, didn't India lose an ODI by 8 wickets? And another by almost a 100 runs? It's been an embarrassing couple of months for "number one team yaar".

 

[slipcatch]

As predicted and to keep the reputation intact few have came out with ridiculous insertions, mostly in an attempt to save their chadi, again, after initial comments were made without thinking.

But,
India isn’t better than Pakistan in test despite being a number 1 team in tests.

Ranking system is flawed, the whole ICC organization is flawed organization, hosting two tests instead of 3.

India was humiliated in current English tour.

 

[kuskash]

Why do people have difficulties to accept that Pak is much better in Eng than India? Even though India is #1 by current ranking criterias, their performances does not suit of that position.

 

[Kohli The King of Chase]

Manjrekar crying like some Athar A Khan, from some minnow team.

 

[barah_admi]

This is the greatest indictment of the flawed ranking systems there has ever been.

 

[kuskash]

This is the greatest indictment of the flawed ranking systems there has ever been.

Even Indian fans would agree with it.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Once again, test rankings are pure trash. No.1 team getting steamrolled here. Winning abroad should get you 2-3x the amount of points than home. India's home record can go to a pile of ****

 

[srh]

India simply plays more tests than Pakistan. It is not that difficult to understand.

Our home seasons are longer than Pakistan's and our away tours are also longer. For example: Pakistan just played 2 tests in England this year while we played 5.


And if home advantage was the sole reason for India's dominance at home then other teams should be ranked #1 too.

Australia and India have both played 21 home tests in the last 4 years. Why is Australia ranked at 3?

England have played even more - 35 test matches at home in the last 4 years. Why are they ranked number 5?


India is not number 1 because it plays tests at home. Every team plays at home. India is number 1 because it never loses at home.

India has lost 1 out of 23 test matches at home in the last 5+ years. How many has Pakistan lost? 6 out of 18.

That's 33% of home games lost for Pakistan!! You lose 1/3 of all your matches at home. India's lost percentage is 4.3%.

That is why India is ranked at 1 and Pakistan at 7.

A huge India has over others is that it does not play Pakistan at home unlike others. Thats why they are able to have a better record at home than others.

 

[ManFan]

India have been outplayed in England and South Africa.

Let’s see what they can do in Australia.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Expected better from both teams on this tour.

Poor display of cricket from both teams. Tailenders saved England on most occasions and India managed a fluke win. Kohli scored some soft runs this time.

 

[introvert]

It's 4-1 so total 4 guna lagaan dena pada.

 

[barah_admi]

Expected better from both teams on this tour.

Poor display of cricket from both teams. Tailenders saved England on most occasions and India managed a fluke win. Kohli scored some soft runs this time.

Poor display of batting on both sides, I agree but India's bowling has been OK but England's has been very good. A part time spinner has looked world class and the old legs have trundled through India while a debutant has looked the find of the summer.

I agree that Kohli scored most runs on the flattest pitch but he did OK in other conditions too. Not amazing but good enough.

 

[Mamoon]

As predicted and to keep the reputation intact few have came out with ridiculous insertions, mostly in an attempt to save their chadi, again, after initial comments were made without thinking.

But,
India isn’t better than Pakistan in test despite being a number 1 team in tests.

Ranking system is flawed, the whole ICC organization is flawed organization, hosting two tests instead of 3.

India was humiliated in current English tour.

India is better than Pakistan in Tests. Your delusions mean little.

Pakistan is better in England only, that is it. India have greater highs and Pakistan have lower lows.

Regardless of how flawed the rankings are, Pakistan cannot sustain the number one ranking for so long. It is funny how the flawed rankings seem to mostly work against Pakistan but favor India.

As far as the lows are concerned, India will never get whitewashed by Sri Lanka in a home series and won’t lose a home Test to West Indies either, and that is why Pakistan cannot sustain a high ranking because it looses matches at home frequently.

On the contrary, India have only lost 1 home Test since 2013, but my apologies for pointing out inconvenient facts. Let’s feed our delusions by pointing out the flawed Test rankings.

Furthermore, as far as the two Test matches are concerned, again, a little understand and perception will go a long way.

Pakistan played four Tests in 2016 and will play a few Tests in 2020 as well. They tour England more regularly than any other team, and cannot get 3 or 4 matches every time.

You are of course free to come up with your flawless ranking system and host your fantasy Test Championship Final.

 

[Mamoon]

India is better than Pakistan in Tests. Your delusions mean little.

Pakistan is better in England only, that is it. India have greater highs and Pakistan have lower lows.

Regardless of how flawed the rankings are, Pakistan cannot sustain the number one ranking for so long. It is funny how the flawed rankings seem to mostly work against Pakistan but favor India.

As far as the lows are concerned, India will never get whitewashed by Sri Lanka in a home series and won’t lose a home Test to West Indies either, and that is why Pakistan cannot sustain a high ranking because it looses matches at home frequently.

On the contrary, India have only lost 1 home Test since 2013, but my apologies for pointing out inconvenient facts. Let’s feed our delusions by pointing out the flawed Test rankings.

Furthermore, as far as the two Test matches are concerned, again, a little understand and perception will go a long way.

Pakistan played four Tests in 2016 and will play a few Tests in 2020 as well. They tour England more regularly than any other team, and cannot get 3 or 4 matches every time.

You are of course free to come up with your flawless ranking system and host your fantasy Test Championship Final.

loses*

It is also worth pointing out that Pakistan cannot draw - let alone win - a single match in Australia to save its life.

If the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. if India would have lost 12 straight Tests in Australia (no exceptions), it would have been enough for our fans to conclude that we are a better Test side.

We may not be number 1 in the rankings, but our fans are certainly number 1 when it comes to hypocrisy, double-standards and delusion.

 

[OmarKhan99]

India is better than Pakistan in Tests. Your delusions mean little.

Pakistan is better in England only, that is it. India have greater highs and Pakistan have lower lows.

Regardless of how flawed the rankings are, Pakistan cannot sustain the number one ranking for so long. It is funny how the flawed rankings seem to mostly work against Pakistan but favor India.

As far as the lows are concerned, India will never get whitewashed by Sri Lanka in a home series and won’t lose a home Test to West Indies either, and that is why Pakistan cannot sustain a high ranking because it looses matches at home frequently.

On the contrary, India have only lost 1 home Test since 2013, but my apologies for pointing out inconvenient facts. Let’s feed our delusions by pointing out the flawed Test rankings.

Furthermore, as far as the two Test matches are concerned, again, a little understand and perception will go a long way.

Pakistan played four Tests in 2016 and will play a few Tests in 2020 as well. They tour England more regularly than any other team, and cannot get 3 or 4 matches every time.

You are of course free to come up with your flawless ranking system and host your fantasy Test Championship Final.

When an argument revolves around the unquantifiable and the intangibles to prove a point, it is evident that it is this argument that is filled to the brim with delusion.

 

[JaDed]

They have and that too for second time in last 8 years , congratulations to England.

 

[Usman Chadda]

loses*

It is also worth pointing out that Pakistan cannot draw - let alone win - a single match in Australia to save its life.

If the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. if India would have lost 12 straight Tests in Australia (no exceptions), it would have been enough for our fans to conclude that we are a better Test side.

We may not be number 1 in the rankings, but our fans are certainly number 1 when it comes to hypocrisy, double-standards and delusion.

Not once have I seen you say "India deserves this humiliation" since this heavy defeat. You might have been neutral before, but constant bullying on this forum has truly made you an Indian apologist

 

[Mamoon]

When an argument revolves around the unquantifiable and the intangibles to prove a point, it is evident that it is this argument that is filled to the brim with delusion.

Oh this is fun.

I have only come up with facts, facts that people do not want to hear.

It is a fact that rankings are not meaningless, because the ICC Test Championship Final will be literally played between the top two ranked sides, not between the two teams that PPers deem worthy.

It is a fact that India have lost only one home Test since 2013. No other team in the world boasts such a record.

It is a fact that Pakistan have been whitewashed in a home Test series to Sri Lanka, and have also lost a home Test to the West Indies.

There is nothing intangible or unquantifiable about the above. Now as far as the notion of highs and lows are concerned, I personally do think that India have had higher highs over the last two decades.

They have won a series in England, they have avoided whitewashes in Australia a few times, they have won more at home and they have occupied the number 1 ranking for much, much longer than we have.

I also think that losing a home series to Sri Lanka and losing a home Test to the West Indies is a lot more embarrassing than losing heavily in England, Australia or South Africa.

 

[Mamoon]

Not once have I seen you say "India deserves this humiliation" since this heavy defeat. You might have been neutral before, but constant bullying on this forum has truly made you an Indian apologist

Why do they deserve this humiliation? The attitude of the Indian fans is not comparable to the attitude of our fans prior to the reality check in New Zealand.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Why do they deserve this humiliation? The attitude of the Indian fans is not comparable to the attitude of our fans prior to the reality check in New Zealand.

Really? I'm sure you missed a senior Indian poster pulling up stats of Australia of 2000s/Windies of 70s in-order to prove how this Indian team fares in comparison. I'm sure you missed the thread which says "3-2 won't be such a bad result", as if its set in stone that India will win the last test. The delusions are worse than our fans.

 

[Mamoon]

Really? I'm sure you missed a senior Indian poster pulling up stats of Australia of 2000s/Windies of 70s in-order to prove how this Indian team fares in comparison. I'm sure you missed the thread which says "3-2 won't be such a bad result", as if its set in stone that India will win the last test. The delusions are worse than our fans.

There will always be exceptions. Most Indians fans on this forum were not convinced that India will win the series because the batting is out of form and too dependent on Kohli.

In fact English fans were more convinced that India would win the series.

However, nothing compares to the overhyping our fans indulged in after the Champions Trophy. We became the best ODI team in the world overnight, and apparently only England in England could beat us.

Fans like these deserve to be humiliated, and yes the select few Indian fans who were comparing their team to the great Australian or West Indian side also deserve to be humiliated.

 

[Usman Chadda]

There will always be exceptions. Most Indians fans on this forum were not convinced that India will win the series because the batting is out of form and too dependent on Kohli.

In fact English fans were more convinced that India would win the series.

However, nothing compares to the overhyping our fans indulged in after the Champions Trophy. We became the best ODI team in the world overnight, and apparently only England in England could beat us.

Fans like these deserve to be humiliated, and yes the select few Indian fans who were comparing their team to the great Australian or West Indian side also deserve to be humiliated.

There, wasn't that hard was it? I know you like to play the devil's advocate here, but you have to be fair to both sides in your analysis

 

[OmarKhan99]

Oh this is fun.

I have only come up with facts, facts that people do not want to hear.

It is a fact that rankings are not meaningless, because the ICC Test Championship Final will be literally played between the top two ranked sides, not between the two teams that PPers deem worthy.

It is a fact that India have lost only one home Test since 2013. No other team in the world boasts such a record.

It is a fact that Pakistan have been whitewashed in a home Test series to Sri Lanka, and have also lost a home Test to the West Indies.

There is nothing intangible or unquantifiable about the above. Now as far as the notion of highs and lows are concerned, I personally do think that India have had higher highs over the last two decades.

They have won a series in England, they have avoided whitewashes in Australia a few times, they have won more at home and they have occupied the number 1 ranking for much, much longer than we have.

I also think that losing a home series to Sri Lanka and losing a home Test to the West Indies is a lot more embarrassing than losing heavily in England, Australia or South Africa.

This indeed will be fun.

First of all, I have already addressed the Sri Lankan argument you keep on regurgitating, yet you failed to respond. I'll just paste it here again so that you are reminded.

The loss to Zimbabwe you keep on stating was quite some time ago. Since then, there has been an influx of quite a few young players and this current line-up is effectively entirely different to the one in 2013-14. Hence, the logic behind applying that loss as a criterion of judgement for this team is quite faulty.

In regard to the loss to Sri Lanka, it isn't as bad as it has been made out to be. The important thing is to remember and consider what were the circumstances leading up to the series. We were just beginning our transitioning phase. The Sri Lankan series was the first series post the departure of two of our major batting stalwarts that consistently carried the burden of Pakistani batting for many years. One of them being the captain who was instrumental in the revival of Pakistan Cricket from depths of darkness we had been indulged in. The batting feeling this loss and vacancy was only natural and hence the team taking a hit or two was to be expected. Plus, we had a newly appointed Captain, in the form of Sarfraz, who was on his first stint as Test captain and since his style of play is in vast contrast to Misbah's, rookie mistakes were to be expected. Not only were his players to get used to Sarfraz's style of captaincy and his tactics but also the Coaching staff were yet to fully adapt. This obviously resulted in some bad decisions which the management has since recognised.

The fact of the matter is, we must stop dwelling in the past and pull up references to matches or series that Pakistan played in with a completely different set of players or matches in a very different format (i.e. the NZ ODI series). These are frankly quite meaningless and just continue to highlight the desperation and frustration.

The purpose of the thread, from what I see, isn't about who is the superior test team, but rather more about the comparison of particular performances of a team consisting of quite a few players who haven't even played a handful of tests (and even some who debuted on the tour itself) and a team that has been "settled" long enough to make the #1 Test rankings consistently in recent times. Seeing how the very well reputed Indian Batting line up and the team has fared until now and comparing that to how Pakistan played just 3 months prior in virtually the same conditions is an indication that Pakistan has done something greater than what was initially perceived. Don't think this is about pulling India down, but more about the realization of what Pakistan has accomplished.

Also, a piece of advice I would like to give to you as a brother, don't mistake realism with pessimism.

Secondly, I really like the way you pull out these statements, analogous to dragging a smelly red herring in front of dogs. I clearly highlighted that the ludicrous argument of "India has higher highs and Pakistan lower lows " is what I considered was dealing with "unquantifiable" and "intangible", yet you quote the Sri Lankan series and the Rankings as your proof of making a statistics-based argument. Let's not fool ourselves.

Also, I like how some constantly and seamlessly jump time phases while making arguments completely ignoring the fact that it blatantly contradicts and negates the same argument that they made previously. Remind me, who was the poster who made the argument that the reason Pakistan beat India in the infamous #AaneDO series in 2012, was mainly because that Indian XI was in a transitioning phase after the loss of Tendulkar, although the other veterans were still playing. How that same poster glosses over that fact in Pak vs SRL series in 2017, where the argument is greatly justified, is beyond me.

Another important aspect of your argument is that India has a very good record at home in the mentioned 2013 time period. While that is true, it also true that team that could best challenge India in spinning conditions have not played a test match in that period, Pakistan. India did not face players of the calibre of Younis Khan, Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah, or Misbah during that phase. Another argument that can be made, is that Pakistan has not even played a single test match at home, for nearly a decade. The passion drain felt from the mostly vacated and emotionless seats is severely undermined. Despite all that, Pakistan have still been close to invincible in UAE under Misbah's captaincy. Let's not be naive.

Also, I feel it is quite flawed argument to expand the timeframe to 20 years. I'm pretty sure you only did that after recently learning about Dravid winning the series in 2007. Well, I for one would never undermine a win but considering how you bash Pakistan about eking out 'fluke' wins, I'm not sure why you didn't use the same barometer for that 2007 series. Because if you did look at the scorecards of the series, you would not have mentioned it. I just find your arguments very curious. Regardless, that is not the main point.

The reason I think a timeframe of 20 years is faulty, is because the entire make-up of a team can change over the course of just 2 years and hence there is a difference in quality. For instance, when comparing the current English and Australian ODI sides, would you bring the Australia of the 2000s into the argument? It is quite apparent that the English side is currently much better. And that fact is based on the performance of each team in the last 2-3 years. Also, when expanding the timeframe, who's to say when to stop, and then the drawn series of 1954 and the series win of 1987 would be brought into question. This would then develop into the argument as to who has been historically the better Test side, which no one has doubts over. So, gauging a team's ability over the period of 5-6 years is a more realistic parameter, any further and it becomes a faulty one, imo.

Finally, I would like to make to clear that I never said Pakistan is currently the better team. I only believe that you severely undermine Pakistan's achievements, while using those same achievements to praise the Indian team. Pakistan is an excellent team, and they have shown time and again if they put their mind to it, they will achieve greatness. In Sha Allah!

 

[OmarKhan99]

This indeed will be fun.

First of all, I have already addressed the Sri Lankan argument you keep on regurgitating, yet you failed to respond. I'll just paste it here again so that you are reminded.



Secondly, I really like the way you pull out these statements, analogous to dragging a smelly red herring in front of dogs. I clearly highlighted that the ludicrous argument of "India has higher highs and Pakistan lower lows " is what I considered was dealing with "unquantifiable" and "intangible", yet you quote the Sri Lankan series and the Rankings as your proof of making a statistics-based argument. Let's not fool ourselves.

Also, I like how some constantly and seamlessly jump time phases while making arguments completely ignoring the fact that it blatantly contradicts and negates the same argument that they made previously. Remind me, who was the poster who made the argument that the reason Pakistan beat India in the infamous #AaneDO series in 2012, was mainly because that Indian XI was in a transitioning phase after the loss of Tendulkar, although the other veterans were still playing. How that same poster glosses over that fact in Pak vs SRL series in 2017, where the argument is greatly justified, is beyond me.

Another important aspect of your argument is that India has a very good record at home in the mentioned 2013 time period. While that is true, it also true that team that could best challenge India in spinning conditions have not played a test match in that period, Pakistan. India did not face players of the calibre of Younis Khan, Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah, or Misbah during that phase. Another argument that can be made, is that Pakistan has not even played a single test match at home, for nearly a decade. The passion drain felt from the mostly vacated and emotionless seats is severely undermined. Despite all that, Pakistan have still been close to invincible in UAE under Misbah's captaincy. Let's not be naive.

Also, I feel it is quite flawed argument to expand the timeframe to 20 years. I'm pretty sure you only did that after recently learning about Dravid winning the series in 2007. Well, I for one would never undermine a win but considering how you bash Pakistan about eking out 'fluke' wins, I'm not sure why you didn't use the same barometer for that 2007 series. Because if you did look at the scorecards of the series, you would not have mentioned it. I just find your arguments very curious. Regardless, that is not the main point.

The reason I think a timeframe of 20 years is faulty, is because the entire make-up of a team can change over the course of just 2 years and hence there is a difference in quality. For instance, when comparing the current English and Australian ODI sides, would you bring the Australia of the 2000s into the argument? It is quite apparent that the English side is currently much better. And that fact is based on the performance of each team in the last 2-3 years. Also, when expanding the timeframe, who's to say when to stop, and then the drawn series of 1954 and the series win of 1987 would be brought into question. This would then develop into the argument as to who has been historically the better Test side, which no one has doubts over. So, gauging a team's ability over the period of 5-6 years is a more realistic parameter, any further and it becomes a faulty one, imo.

Finally, I would like to make to clear that I never said Pakistan is currently the better team. I only believe that you severely undermine Pakistan's achievements, while using those same achievements to praise the Indian team. Pakistan is an excellent team, and they have shown time and again if they put their mind to it, they will achieve greatness. In Sha Allah!

...in the test arena*

 

[shariqnoor]

Why do they deserve this humiliation? The attitude of the Indian fans is not comparable to the attitude of our fans prior to the reality check in New Zealand.

To be fair, you cannot judge the delusion or non-delusion of Indian fans sitting on a Pakistani forum. To truly check whether they are deluded or not, spend some time on an Indian cricketing forum and there you will get your answer. To label Pakistani fans deluded and them not so is ridiculous because the comparison is not apples to apples. Mind you I'm not saying that Pakistani fans are not deluded. Some of them maybe but a blanket generalization is never right.

Also you constantly bring up a home defeat to West Indies as something that is disgraceful. Were you this vocal and denigrate England when they shelled a test to West Indies on home soil or is this denigration only reserved for Pakistan?

And finally are reality checks only reserved for Pakistan as well? Where was this reality check when India was beaten in New Zealand 4-0 and should've been a whitewash had it not been for some stupid captaincy by McCullum in the tied game. When Pakistan beat India in India, it wasn't a big deal because somehow India was in transition but when Pakistan lost 5-0, no benefit of the doubt there to Pakistan??? Pakistan played that series against NZ with players like Azhar Ali, Rumman Raees, Aamir Yamin, Umar Amin, Haris Sohail, Mohammad Hafeez who are no longer part of the team. Also Pakistan won the CT without Umar Amin, Rumman Raees (played just 1 match), Aamir Yamin, Haris Sohail. But yeah sure, Pakistan got a reality check.

I for one do not for one moment believe that because Pakistan has done well in England is a superior Test team to India. We are not!!! Anybody who thinks that we are, is deluded. But let's not sully Pakistan's victories either. Would India beat Pakistan in a Test series in India? Probably, but then again you also never know. Pakistan has almost always brought their A game against India in India. In ODI's in this century where India has clearly been the superior team, Pakistan is actually leading India in H2H in ODIs. What you always do is translate their paper superiority into believing that they will thrash Pakistan every time which facts suggest doesn't happen.

 

[MenInG]

To be fair, you cannot judge the delusion or non-delusion of Indian fans sitting on a Pakistani forum. To truly check whether they are deluded or not, spend some time on an Indian cricketing forum and there you will get your answer. To label Pakistani fans deluded and them not so is ridiculous because the comparison is not apples to apples. Mind you I'm not saying that Pakistani fans are not deluded. Some of them maybe but a blanket generalization is never right.

Also you constantly bring up a home defeat to West Indies as something that is disgraceful. Were you this vocal and denigrate England when they shelled a test to West Indies on home soil or is this denigration only reserved for Pakistan?

And finally are reality checks only reserved for Pakistan as well? Where was this reality check when India was beaten in New Zealand 4-0 and should've been a whitewash had it not been for some stupid captaincy by McCullum in the tied game. When Pakistan beat India in India, it wasn't a big deal because somehow India was in transition but when Pakistan lost 5-0, no benefit of the doubt there to Pakistan??? Pakistan played that series against NZ with players like Azhar Ali, Rumman Raees, Aamir Yamin, Umar Amin, Haris Sohail, Mohammad Hafeez who are no longer part of the team. Also Pakistan won the CT without Umar Amin, Rumman Raees (played just 1 match), Aamir Yamin, Haris Sohail. But yeah sure, Pakistan got a reality check.

I for one do not for one moment believe that because Pakistan has done well in England is a superior Test team to India. We are not!!! Anybody who thinks that we are, is deluded. But let's not sully Pakistan's victories either. Would India beat Pakistan in a Test series in India? Probably, but then again you also never know. Pakistan has almost always brought their A game against India in India. In ODI's in this century where India has clearly been the superior team, Pakistan is actually leading India in H2H in ODIs. What you always do is translate their paper superiority into believing that they will thrash Pakistan every time which facts suggest doesn't happen.

Excellent post. Reality checks work both ways.

 

[PakPremi]

Pakistan unlike India do not have home advantage. So that loss to Sri Lanka was not actually on home turf but neutral ground where both teams have equal probability of winning. Alas we cannot prepare our pitches like India to have a great home record like India.

 

[Ozeirk]

Pakistan unlike India do not have home advantage. So that loss to Sri Lanka was not actually on home turf but neutral ground where both teams have equal probability of winning. Alas we cannot prepare our pitches like India to have a great home record like India.

To add to your point India has been put on notice and fined several times for preparing bad test pitches at home by the ICC.

The credit for the rankings and home win goes to the more deserving Indian grounds men than the players.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Poor display of batting on both sides, I agree but India's bowling has been OK but England's has been very good. A part time spinner has looked world class and the old legs have trundled through India while a debutant has looked the find of the summer.

I agree that Kohli scored most runs on the flattest pitch but he did OK in other conditions too. Not amazing but good enough.

Indian bowling was average in those conditions. Most of the time they failed to finish the job and let England post a game changing total. More than England’s bowling, it was Indian batting which has been very poor.

 

[The_Odd_One]

India is better than Pakistan in Tests. Your delusions mean little.

Pakistan is better in England only, that is it. India have greater highs and Pakistan have lower lows.

Regardless of how flawed the rankings are, Pakistan cannot sustain the number one ranking for so long. It is funny how the flawed rankings seem to mostly work against Pakistan but favor India.

As far as the lows are concerned, India will never get whitewashed by Sri Lanka in a home series and won’t lose a home Test to West Indies either, and that is why Pakistan cannot sustain a high ranking because it looses matches at home frequently.

On the contrary, India have only lost 1 home Test since 2013, but my apologies for pointing out inconvenient facts. Let’s feed our delusions by pointing out the flawed Test rankings.

Furthermore, as far as the two Test matches are concerned, again, a little understand and perception will go a long way.

Pakistan played four Tests in 2016 and will play a few Tests in 2020 as well. They tour England more regularly than any other team, and cannot get 3 or 4 matches every time.

You are of course free to come up with your flawless ranking system and host your fantasy Test Championship Final.

Kindly explain why didn’t you take Pakistan’s #1 ranking seriously built on success in the UAE but never stop mentioning India’s home dominance?

 

[slipcatch]

India is better than Pakistan in Tests. Your delusions mean little.

Pakistan is better in England only, that is it. India have greater highs and Pakistan have lower lows.

Regardless of how flawed the rankings are, Pakistan cannot sustain the number one ranking for so long. It is funny how the flawed rankings seem to mostly work against Pakistan but favor India.

As far as the lows are concerned, India will never get whitewashed by Sri Lanka in a home series and won’t lose a home Test to West Indies either, and that is why Pakistan cannot sustain a high ranking because it looses matches at home frequently.

On the contrary, India have only lost 1 home Test since 2013, but my apologies for pointing out inconvenient facts. Let’s feed our delusions by pointing out the flawed Test rankings.

Furthermore, as far as the two Test matches are concerned, again, a little understand and perception will go a long way.

Pakistan played four Tests in 2016 and will play a few Tests in 2020 as well. They tour England more regularly than any other team, and cannot get 3 or 4 matches every time.

You are of course free to come up with your flawless ranking system and host your fantasy Test Championship Final.

loses*

It is also worth pointing out that Pakistan cannot draw - let alone win - a single match in Australia to save its life.

If the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. if India would have lost 12 straight Tests in Australia (no exceptions), it would have been enough for our fans to conclude that we are a better Test side.

We may not be number 1 in the rankings, but our fans are certainly number 1 when it comes to hypocrisy, double-standards and delusion.

Buddy, you are something else. If i am delusional than what are you?

I will answer all your queries with this, India isn't a better test team than Pakistan.

 

[slipcatch]

To be fair, you cannot judge the delusion or non-delusion of Indian fans sitting on a Pakistani forum. To truly check whether they are deluded or not, spend some time on an Indian cricketing forum and there you will get your answer. To label Pakistani fans deluded and them not so is ridiculous because the comparison is not apples to apples. Mind you I'm not saying that Pakistani fans are not deluded. Some of them maybe but a blanket generalization is never right.

Also you constantly bring up a home defeat to West Indies as something that is disgraceful. Were you this vocal and denigrate England when they shelled a test to West Indies on home soil or is this denigration only reserved for Pakistan?

And finally are reality checks only reserved for Pakistan as well? Where was this reality check when India was beaten in New Zealand 4-0 and should've been a whitewash had it not been for some stupid captaincy by McCullum in the tied game. When Pakistan beat India in India, it wasn't a big deal because somehow India was in transition but when Pakistan lost 5-0, no benefit of the doubt there to Pakistan??? Pakistan played that series against NZ with players like Azhar Ali, Rumman Raees, Aamir Yamin, Umar Amin, Haris Sohail, Mohammad Hafeez who are no longer part of the team. Also Pakistan won the CT without Umar Amin, Rumman Raees (played just 1 match), Aamir Yamin, Haris Sohail. But yeah sure, Pakistan got a reality check.

I for one do not for one moment believe that because Pakistan has done well in England is a superior Test team to India. We are not!!! Anybody who thinks that we are, is deluded. But let's not sully Pakistan's victories either. Would India beat Pakistan in a Test series in India? Probably, but then again you also never know. Pakistan has almost always brought their A game against India in India. In ODI's in this century where India has clearly been the superior team, Pakistan is actually leading India in H2H in ODIs. What you always do is translate their paper superiority into believing that they will thrash Pakistan every time which facts suggest doesn't happen.

Pakistan team isn't superior to India but India isn't better test team than Pakistan.

 

[barah_admi]

Indian bowling was average in those conditions. Most of the time they failed to finish the job and let England post a game changing total. More than England’s bowling, it was Indian batting which has been very poor.

India's bowlers for for a lot of these matches pitches it well and got the ball to swing but how can any bowler build pressure if the captain keeps spreading the field and giving away singles?

 

[Tusker]

Buddy, you are something else. If i am delusional than what are you?

I will answer all your queries with this, India isn't a better test team than Pakistan.

Pakistan team isn't superior to India but India isn't better test team than Pakistan.

Yeah the people who invented the Ranking system are the truly delusional ones ... they should know better that losing a Test Series to a 7th ranked SL at supposedly the fortress ( UAE ) doesnt mean anything neither does losing Tests to WI and ZIM. But drawing a series in Eng means everything. Tell me something new

 

[slipcatch]

Yeah the people who invented the Ranking system are the truly delusional ones ... they should know better that losing a Test Series to a 7th ranked SL at supposedly the fortress ( UAE ) doesnt mean anything neither does losing Tests to WI and ZIM. But drawing a series in Eng means everything. Tell me something new

sure you can nitpick anything to support your point but it doesn't negate the fact that ranking system is flawed. I know this simple fact isn't new, everyone with a normal brain function and minute sense of cricket would know this, so, i apologize for not telling you something new.

 

[barah_admi]

sure you can nitpick anything to support your point but it doesn't negate the fact that ranking system is flawed. I know this simple fact isn't new, everyone with a normal brain function and minute sense of cricket would know this, so, i apologize for not telling you something new.

You have to leave it, these people are almost psychotic in their obsession.

Anyone with an ounce of logic would know that a team which loses 5 out of 7 tests on the trot can not be a genuine number one.

I'm shocked that India still have enough points after these annihilation to stay on top.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Far from being a humiliation. India has fought tooth and nail everyday of this series. Without bad luck of toss, the result would hv been very different.

 

[LahoreWala]

Far from being a humiliation. India has fought tooth and nail everyday of this series. Without bad luck of toss, the result would hv been very different.

Another delusional Indian fan. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] are you keeping a count?

 

[bujhee kom]

Far from being a humiliation. India has fought tooth and nail everyday of this series. Without bad luck of toss, the result would hv been very different.

4-1 is a thrashing.

 

[bujhee kom]

Another delusional Indian fan. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] are you keeping a count?

He still thinks India outplayed England. Results be damned!

 

[kuskash]

Far from being a humiliation. India has fought tooth and nail everyday of this series. Without bad luck of toss, the result would hv been very different.

No brother. Its 4-1 loss, 4-1. Yes it may not be humiliating for ZIM or AFG but for IND it is beyond humiliating.

 

[Kohli The King of Chase]

Thank God, this humiliation of 2 months is over now.

 

[Finisher]

Oh this is fun.

I have only come up with facts, facts that people do not want to hear.

It is a fact that rankings are not meaningless, because the ICC Test Championship Final will be literally played between the top two ranked sides, not between the two teams that PPers deem worthy.

It is a fact that India have lost only one home Test since 2013. No other team in the world boasts such a record.

It is a fact that Pakistan have been whitewashed in a home Test series to Sri Lanka, and have also lost a home Test to the West Indies.

There is nothing intangible or unquantifiable about the above. Now as far as the notion of highs and lows are concerned, I personally do think that India have had higher highs over the last two decades.

They have won a series in England, they have avoided whitewashes in Australia a few times, they have won more at home and they have occupied the number 1 ranking for much, much longer than we have.

I also think that losing a home series to Sri Lanka and losing a home Test to the West Indies is a lot more embarrassing than losing heavily in England, Australia or South Africa.

From my memory, India and Pakistan have lost the same number of home series since 2012, see why u started crying and leaving out that series loss to England

 

[Mamoon]

sure you can nitpick anything to support your point but it doesn't negate the fact that ranking system is flawed. I know this simple fact isn't new, everyone with a normal brain function and minute sense of cricket would know this, so, i apologize for not telling you something new.

Please come up with a flawless ranking system, and also reveal the name of the team that will be numero uno according to your flawless ranking system.

 

[Mamoon]

From my memory, India and Pakistan have lost the same number of home series since 2012, see why u started crying and leaving out that series loss to England

India have won more home matches than Pakistan and have also lost fewer in the last 5 years. Since 2013, they have only lost 1 home match. No team can match that record and that is why they are number one.

Yes I know, had we not bombed Sri Lanka and if we were playing in Pakistan, our players would have uprooted trees with their bare hands, which is why we should ignore the emphatically embarrassing losses to Sri Lanka, West Indies and New Zealand in the UAE.

This is the "do not point out inconvenient facts" season on PakPassion.

 

[ManFan]

India have won more home matches than Pakistan and have also lost fewer in the last 5 years. Since 2013, they have only lost 1 home match. No team can match that record and that is why they are number one.

Yes I know, had we not bombed Sri Lanka and if we were playing in Pakistan, our players would have uprooted trees with their bare hands, which is why we should ignore the emphatically embarrassing losses to Sri Lanka, West Indies and New Zealand in the UAE.

This is the "do not point out inconvenient facts" season on PakPassion.

India is a better team at home than Pakistan, no doubt.

However, Pakistan has lost the same number of series at home since 2010 that India has lost (1) and have no control over the pitches that are produced in the UAE.

 

[MenInG]

India have won more home matches than Pakistan and have also lost fewer in the last 5 years. Since 2013, they have only lost 1 home match. No team can match that record and that is why they are number one.

Yes I know, had we not bombed Sri Lanka and if we were playing in Pakistan, our players would have uprooted trees with their bare hands, which is why we should ignore the emphatically embarrassing losses to Sri Lanka, West Indies and New Zealand in the UAE.

This is the "do not point out inconvenient facts" season on PakPassion.

Inability to understand the fact that Pakistan does NOT play at home is disturbing.

 

[PakPremi]

India is a better team at home than Pakistan, no doubt. .

May I remind everyone UAE counts as home series in records but in actual fact is a neutral ground . So cannot say India has better record than Pakistan at home. A fact conveniently ignored by some.

 

[ManFan]

May I remind everyone UAE counts as home series in records but in actual fact is a neutral ground . So cannot say India has better record than Pakistan at home. A fact conveniently ignored by some.

Yes but it is regarded as “home” even though almost the entire current squad has never played a Test in Pakistan.

The UAE is a terrible place for Test Cricket and the PCB.

We could have had by now, eight years of fantastic Test cricket in England, but then Ijaz Butt happened...

 

[barah_admi]

Let's say the UAE is "home" (being outside of Pakistan, for a Pakistani team, is home apparently lol), they have only ever lost one series there. India have lost several series in India, so are they really better at home/?

 

[slipcatch]

Please come up with a flawless ranking system, and also reveal the name of the team that will be numero uno according to your flawless ranking system.

Not my job.

And don’t worry, it isn’t Pakistan.

 

[slipcatch]

Inability to understand the fact that Pakistan does NOT play at home is disturbing.

Inability?

Intentionally not understanding isn’t inability.