England's greatest ever cricketer

[Junaids]

In today's Daily Telegraph (UK) the doyen of cricket journalism, Scyld Berry, discusses the question - who was the greatest English cricketer?

He narrows it down to two - Sir WG Grace and Sir Ian Botham.

That's pretty timely on the opening day of a Test series in India, given that Botham's extraordinary performance in the Jubilee Test in Bombay in February 1981 was by far the greatest performance ever produced by any cricketer in Asia in the history of cricket.

He scored 114 and took 6-58 and 7-48.

Berry offers two alternatives: Sir Jack Hobbs and Sir Len Hutton.

Personally I disagree: I would lean towards SF Barnes or my own favourite, Fred Trueman.

But what a sensational array of talent!

 

[Junaids]

For the record, here is the Jubilee Test comparison:

Botham
6-58
114
7-48

Kapil Dev
0
3-64
45 not out
0-21

 

[Robert]

Sir Ian is certainly the best post-war IMO.

WGG, Barnes, Sir Jack, Wally Hammond, Trueman and Sir Ian are my top six.

 

[Junaids]

Sir Ian is certainly the best post-war IMO.

WGG, Barnes, Sir Jack, Wally Hammond, Trueman and Sir Ian are my top six.

I think I agree, except I'm not sure that we can leave out Jim Laker, who I think is behind only Shane Warne as the greatest spin bowler of all time.

I also wonder about Hedley Verity, given his success against Bradman. One of my remaining ambitions is to go Caserta in Italy to his grave in the war cemetery: one of very few international cricketers to lay down his life for King and Country, as we will recall on Friday, of course.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Peak Ian Botham was the greatest AR the world had ever seen.

Monster with the bat and ball really. No other AR that I know was equally ruthless with the bat and ball at the same time.

But post his peak years, he didn't do great.

 

[Robert]

I also wonder about Hedley Verity, given his success against Bradman. One of my remaining ambitions is to go Caserta in Italy to his grave in the war cemetery: one of very few international cricketers to lay down his life for King and Country, as we will recall on Friday, of course.

Wow. What did he do - infantry, tanks, artillery?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Probably Trueman. England have not had a truly great fast bowler since then.

 

[Junaids]

Wow. What did he do - infantry, tanks, artillery?

Look up "Verity's War James Holland."

I'm a Lancastrian but my mum is from Yorkshire, which might mean that I over-rate Trueman, Verity and Laker.

It certainly means that Captain Verity's mortal injury and excruciating death have huge emotional meaning for me. But he was an astonishing bowler - who takes innings figures of 10 for 10?

 

[shaz619]

Sir Ian is certainly the best post-war IMO.

WGG, Barnes, Sir Jack, Wally Hammond, Trueman and Sir Ian are my top six.

What is this rubbish about pre or post war, it doesn't matter when we're identifying the undisputed England great. It probably is Ian Botham but my personal are KP and Darren Gough

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]
My favourites are "Flat" Jack Simmons and Ian Austin.

Reassuring Lancastrian girth going on there!

 

[Ab Fan]

Hobbs has a valid claim too.

 

[Slog]

Sir Ian is certainly the best post-war IMO.

WGG, Barnes, Sir Jack, Wally Hammond, Trueman and Sir Ian are my top six.

how many of these top 6 are post war?

 

[Tusker]

Look up "Verity's War James Holland."

I'm a Lancastrian but my mum is from Yorkshire, which might mean that I over-rate Trueman, Verity and Laker.

It certainly means that Captain Verity's mortal injury and excruciating death have huge emotional meaning for me. But he was an astonishing bowler - who takes innings figures of 10 for 10?

You overrate anyone/anything born before 1970

Here is Ian Botham Trundling away to fill his boots with wkts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUIsMNxGpM

Aint going to happen in this ERA. No Bowler with that pace will get a look in as a first choice "strike" bowler.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]
My favourites are "Flat" Jack Simmons and Ian Austin.

Reassuring Lancastrian girth going on there!

Am shaking me head left to right in slow mo!

If am brutally honest though, Bob Willis is the undisputed England GOAT! there is no Warwickshire bias whatsoever!

 

[Buffet]

Trueman

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Bob Willis.

 

[Hasan123]

Ian Botham

 

[The_Odd_One]

Surprised none mentioned Alan Knott.

31 50s and 5 100s as a keeper batsman in just 149 innings is a tremendous record. On top of that he was a brilliant specialist keeper.

 

[Chrish]

Sir Ian is certainly the best post-war IMO.

WGG, Barnes, Sir Jack, Wally Hammond, Trueman and Sir Ian are my top six.

no way hammond is ahead of hutton on a basis of batting alone.. i am assuming you are including AR status

 

[PakLFC]

Graham Gooch. He lost some three years due to being part of the rebel group but came back strongly. A classy opener who could win a match on his own. Very good fielder, could turn his arm over as well often to good effect.

 

[Robert]

Am shaking me head left to right in slow mo!

If am brutally honest though, Bob Willis is the undisputed England GOAT! there is no Warwickshire bias whatsoever!

There has not been an English quick to touch him since he retired. Fast, accurate, loads of bounce. He was what Finn should be.

 

[Robert]

no way hammond is ahead of hutton on a basis of batting alone.. i am assuming you are including AR status

Hammond was also the best slip catcher in England. He could take the new ball. He did the lot really.

 

[James]

Botham by far.

Of 1990s cricketers onwards, Cook is pretty darn good.

 

[Junaids]

You overrate anyone/anything born before 1970

Here is Ian Botham Trundling away to fill his boots with wkts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUIsMNxGpM

Aint going to happen in this ERA. No Bowler with that pace will get a look in as a first choice "strike" bowler.

Unlike many of the people that I drone on about, Ian Botham is a player whose entire career I was fortunate enough to watch.

Ask [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], but this would be my summary:

1977-1981:
Botham bowled between around 138 and 144K, but got very, very late swing which made him lethal.

1984-1986:
Botham's back injuries had taken away that exceptionally late swing, and like Flintoff or Stokes he tried to be
a short-pitched enforcer that he wasn't quick enough to be. I reckon he bowled in the 138-144K range still, but shorter than before.

1986-87 onwards:
He was now just a medium-fast bowler, often bowling 125-135K.

It's that period 1977-1982 when he was an ATG. The Jubilee Test is the key - he was so much better than Kapil Dev that it's almost funny!

 

[MMHS]

Unlike many of the people that I drone on about, Ian Botham is a player whose entire career I was fortunate enough to watch.

Ask [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], but this would be my summary:

1977-1981:
Botham bowled between around 138 and 144K, but got very, very late swing which made him lethal.

1984-1986:
Botham's back injuries had taken away that exceptionally late swing, and like Flintoff or Stokes he tried to be
a short-pitched enforcer that he wasn't quick enough to be. I reckon he bowled in the 138-144K range still, but shorter than before.

1986-87 onwards:
He was now just a medium-fast bowler, often bowling 125-135K.

It's that period 1977-1982 when he was an ATG. The Jubilee Test is the key - he was so much better than Kapil Dev that it's almost funny!

I am not not sure what is the source of these figures (regarding Botham's pace). In late 70s Lillee & Imran bowled around 140km with effort ball touching 144km. Still I won't talk anything of that period.

But, I have seen slow mo clippings of Botham in 1985 Ashes, 1986 Ind/NZ tour & 1987 Ashes, then PAK tour & a bit of 5-0 by WI in 1986. If Botham ever could reach 134km in those 20 odd Tests, then I believe there is again the same myth buster needed like Tyson bowling 170km. Around 1989 to 1992 WC, I can't tell about the speed, but Dermott Reeve was faster than him, and this I can tell from the position of WK & slips.

Botham had a brilliant out swinger & he could cut it back of the seem - for that, even at 125km, he could have been very good; but please don't put numbers in terms of pace without any evidence. In 1976, in a practice condition (that's no restriction on front foot) only Thompson, Holding & Imran crossed 140km barrier; that too Thommo bowling full tosses to minimize frictional losses - even the biggest Botham fan won't ever say that at his fastest he could have matched those 3 in pace; therefore I am not sure what's the source of the pace you mentioned. That's for 1977-81 period; for 1985 & afterwards, just forget it - 140km, I am sure even you don't believe it.

 

[Tusker]

Unlike many of the people that I drone on about, Ian Botham is a player whose entire career I was fortunate enough to watch.

Ask [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], but this would be my summary:

1977-1981:
Botham bowled between around 138 and 144K, but got very, very late swing which made him lethal.

1984-1986:
Botham's back injuries had taken away that exceptionally late swing, and like Flintoff or Stokes he tried to be
a short-pitched enforcer that he wasn't quick enough to be. I reckon he bowled in the 138-144K range still, but shorter than before.

1986-87 onwards:
He was now just a medium-fast bowler, often bowling 125-135K.

It's that period 1977-1982 when he was an ATG. The Jubilee Test is the key - he was so much better than Kapil Dev that it's almost funny!

The problem is that these Speed Ranges that you post are what your heart is telling you ... ask anyone that has seen truly fast bowling of 140K+ range then they will say there is no way Botham is bowling at that speeds in ANY of the video footage available for Botham. Sorry but just no way can you convince me that Botham bowled at that pace in that Clip I posted.

 

[Junaids]

I am not not sure what is the source of these figures (regarding Botham's pace). In late 70s Lillee & Imran bowled around 140km with effort ball touching 144km. Still I won't talk anything of that period.

But, I have seen slow mo clippings of Botham in 1985 Ashes, 1986 Ind/NZ tour & 1987 Ashes, then PAK tour & a bit of 5-0 by WI in 1986. If Botham ever could reach 134km in those 20 odd Tests, then I believe there is again the same myth buster needed like Tyson bowling 170km. Around 1989 to 1992 WC, I can't tell about the speed, but Dermott Reeve was faster than him, and this I can tell from the position of WK & slips.

Botham had a brilliant out swinger & he could cut it back of the seem - for that, even at 125km, he could have been very good; but please don't put numbers in terms of pace without any evidence. In 1976, in a practice condition (that's no restriction on front foot) only Thompson, Holding & Imran crossed 140km barrier; that too Thommo bowling full tosses to minimize frictional losses - even the biggest Botham fan won't ever say that at his fastest he could have matched those 3 in pace; therefore I am not sure what's the source of the pace you mentioned. That's for 1977-81 period; for 1985 & afterwards, just forget it - 140km, I am sure even you don't believe it.

I agree with you about Late Botham pace. A combination of injuries and a lazy fitness regime.

But you are completely wrong about Lillee and Imran's pace - you are comparing ancient technology with speeds generated in the modern era in completely different ways. And bear in mind that in the recent SA v NZ series, Dale Steyn averaged 144K on Cricinfo measurements and 135K on SuperSport TV measurements - for the same balls in the same spells.

Dennis Lillee wasn't just fast, he was express until the late 1970's. Thommo was operating in 74-75 and 75-76 in the 150's and above, and Lillee was operating at the sort of pace that Mitch Johnson bowled in the Ashes three years ago.

I wrote that at his quickest Botham was in the 138-144 range, and I think that's accurate.

But I also wrote that from 87-92 he bowled at far slower speeds.

 

[msb314]

Ian Botham followed by Len Hutton.

Walter Hammond was also a borderline ATG - overshadowed only by Bradman during his era.
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

 

[jeetu]

In last 40 years , its gottabe Botham. All time lists has loads of contenders.

 

[Robert]

Unlike many of the people that I drone on about, Ian Botham is a player whose entire career I was fortunate enough to watch.

Ask [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], but this would be my summary:

1977-1981:
Botham bowled between around 138 and 144K, but got very, very late swing which made him lethal.

1984-1986:
Botham's back injuries had taken away that exceptionally late swing, and like Flintoff or Stokes he tried to be
a short-pitched enforcer that he wasn't quick enough to be. I reckon he bowled in the 138-144K range still, but shorter than before.

1986-87 onwards:
He was now just a medium-fast bowler, often bowling 125-135K.

It's that period 1977-1982 when he was an ATG. The Jubilee Test is the key - he was so much better than Kapil Dev that it's almost funny!

I struggle to think in km/h. I think Both was upper seventies mph for the first half of his career. He got enormous late swing both ways. He also used the bouncer to excellent effect. He was very strong and bowled with sharp lift too. Even in his dotage the Aussies remarked that his pace surprised them - he was always quicker than he looked.

For a while in 1984-5 he tried to be a quick bowler and though he was not fast in the Holding and Marshall sense, he hurried the Windies top order at times, notably during his eightfer at Lord's.

 

[MMHS]

I struggle to think in km/h. I think Both was upper seventies mph for the first half of his career. He got enormous late swing both ways. He also used the bouncer to excellent effect. He was very strong and bowled with sharp lift too. Even in his dotage the Aussies remarked that his pace surprised them - he was always quicker than he looked.

For a while in 1984-5 he tried to be a quick bowler and though he was not fast in the Holding and Marshall sense, he hurried the Windies top order at times, notably during his eightfer at Lord's.

The conversion is 1 MPH = 1.609 KMH (Or 1 KPH = 0.61 MPH). In that regard, you can take 128 KPH as 80 MPH.

Here, 144 KPH ~ 90 MPH, 138 KPH ~ 86 MPH and
75 MPH ~ 120 KPH.

 

[Junaids]

The conversion is 1 MPH = 1.609 KMH (Or 1 KPH = 0.61 MPH). In that regard, you can take 128 KPH as 80 MPH.

Here, 144 KPH ~ 90 MPH, 138 KPH ~ 86 MPH and
75 MPH ~ 120 KPH.

I may have slightly overestimated Botham at his peak, but I don't believe that before 1981 he was bowling as slow as 75 mph/120K.

Even Vernon Philander bowls 128-135, and Botham before 1981 was certainly quicker than Philander.

But it's all a little bit academic anyway. The key point about Botham up to 1981 was that his swing was so very, very late.

 

[Robert]

I may have slightly overestimated Botham at his peak, but I don't believe that before 1981 he was bowling as slow as 75 mph/120K.

I think he varied his pace depending on what the swing conditions were on a given day.

 

[PakLFC]

David Gower was class as well but I am still standing by Goochie bhai!

 

[MMHS]

I may have slightly overestimated Botham at his peak, but I don't believe that before 1981 he was bowling as slow as 75 mph/120K.

Even Vernon Philander bowls 128-135, and Botham before 1981 was certainly quicker than Philander.

But it's all a little bit academic anyway. The key point about Botham up to 1981 was that his swing was so very, very late.

That's exactly what I said - around 127km-128km, with effort ball reaching 134km, may be sometimes 138km in his 1st spell. But, he was an amazing swing bowler, which counted for at least 10KM of pace.

 

[BD-fan]

Peak Ian Botham was the greatest AR the world had ever seen.

Monster with the bat and ball really. No other AR that I know was equally ruthless with the bat and ball at the same time.

But post his peak years, he didn't do great.

Off Peak Sobers >>> Peak Botham.

 

[Haroon786]

Off Peak Sobers >>> Peak Botham.

Any evidence to back that up ?

 

[Tusker]

I may have slightly overestimated Botham at his peak, but I don't believe that before 1981 he was bowling as slow as 75 mph/120K.

Even Vernon Philander bowls 128-135, and Botham before 1981 was certainly quicker than Philander.

But it's all a little bit academic anyway. The key point about Botham up to 1981 was that his swing was so very, very late.

what do you mean "EVEN" ? almost Every bowler bowls above 130K these days and there is no guarantee that he will pick wkts like Botham could in the 70s and 80s. This is the harsh truth about progress.

 

[Junaids]

what do you mean "EVEN" ? almost Every bowler bowls above 130K these days and there is no guarantee that he will pick wkts like Botham could in the 70s and 80s. This is the harsh truth about progress.

It depends on which measuring system you use.

In the Tests here last summer, Hazlewood averaged 132, Southee averaged 130 and Boult averaged less than 130 according to the Channel 9 measurements.

And Mitchell Starc bowled a supposed 160+ delivery!

 

[Junaids]

Also [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION], I think that Philander has only ever been medium-fast.

Botham went from fast-medium to medium-fast to slow-medium in his career.

 

[Junaids]

what do you mean "EVEN" ? almost Every bowler bowls above 130K these days and there is no guarantee that he will pick wkts like Botham could in the 70s and 80s. This is the harsh truth about progress.

I've written a bit about this in the Adam Milne thread.

My theory is that modern bowlers learn that they can bowl their fastest in 2 over spells in T20, so for example Trent Boult becomes categorized as a 140-145K bowler.

But in reality, he can actually only sustain 130-135 in Tests.

So fast-medium bowlers get mislabeled as "fast", and medium pacers get mislabeled as "fast-medium".

And when they start to believe the hype, they try to bowl too fast for their bodies and get stress-related injuries.

Consider Australia: currently without Cummins, Coulter-Nile, Pattinson and Siddle.

Consider also the people who misunderstand Mohammad Amir's career. They saw him operate at 145-150 in the 2009 World T20 and just don't understand that at Test level he has always been a 133-143K bowler, and usually down the lower end of that band.

 

[Tusker]

I've written a bit about this in the Adam Milne thread.

My theory is that modern bowlers learn that they can bowl their fastest in 2 over spells in T20, so for example Trent Boult becomes categorized as a 140-145K bowler.

But in reality, he can actually only sustain 130-135 in Tests.

So fast-medium bowlers get mislabeled as "fast", and medium pacers get mislabeled as "fast-medium".

And when they start to believe the hype, they try to bowl too fast for their bodies and get stress-related injuries.

Consider Australia: currently without Cummins, Coulter-Nile, Pattinson and Siddle.

Consider also the people who misunderstand Mohammad Amir's career. They saw him operate at 145-150 in the 2009 World T20 and just don't understand that at Test level he has always been a 133-143K bowler, and usually down the lower end of that band.

Believe me Iam no fan of the FAST / FAST-Medium / Medium-Fast / whatever labels. I prefer absolute values as measured by HawkEye. In fact these labels are most notoriously abused by older ERA players since there is no speed gun measurements to to verify them. Its their word against those arguing against and it is a pointless discussion. If you dont trust the speeds reported by HawkEye then there is nothing to discuss here as it becomes a futile non-productive discussion.

Who categorized Boult as 140-145K? I certainly did not. He might be capable of those speeds when fully fit and in short bursts. So I agree with you there. But here is the thing that you refuse to admit: Ian Botham and most other bowlers (few exceptions) from the 70s would struggle to achieve the speeds of Boult. We have been thru this discussion many times before and I have proven more than once why that is soo. The last time I even dug out a obscure video clip that showed you how far the slips were ( your way of measuring speed) when Thommo was bowling at his best pre-injury at Gabba.

Believe me it is incredibly hard to bowl at 135Kph. Most people cannot throw a cricket ball anywhere near to that speed. So what you say about Amir, Boult etc ... is also true for older ERA players ... Nobody can consistently bowl above 145Ks throughout the day in a Test or a ODI. There are only a select few that come very close to doing that. And those are Shoaib, BLee, Bond, Johnson, Waqar.

 

[Jan Sher]

Kevin Pietersen, easily, and no one else comes close.

 

[Junaids]

Believe me Iam no fan of the FAST / FAST-Medium / Medium-Fast / whatever labels. I prefer absolute values as measured by HawkEye. In fact these labels are most notoriously abused by older ERA players since there is no speed gun measurements to to verify them. Its their word against those arguing against and it is a pointless discussion. If you dont trust the speeds reported by HawkEye then there is nothing to discuss here as it becomes a futile non-productive discussion.

Who categorized Boult as 140-145K? I certainly did not. He might be capable of those speeds when fully fit and in short bursts. So I agree with you there. But here is the thing that you refuse to admit: Ian Botham and most other bowlers (few exceptions) from the 70s would struggle to achieve the speeds of Boult. We have been thru this discussion many times before and I have proven more than once why that is soo. The last time I even dug out a obscure video clip that showed you how far the slips were ( your way of measuring speed) when Thommo was bowling at his best pre-injury at Gabba.

Believe me it is incredibly hard to bowl at 135Kph. Most people cannot throw a cricket ball anywhere near to that speed. So what you say about Amir, Boult etc ... is also true for older ERA players ... Nobody can consistently bowl above 145Ks throughout the day in a Test or a ODI. There are only a select few that come very close to doing that. And those are Shoaib, BLee, Bond, Johnson, Waqar.

Until the final sentence I pretty much agreed with every word!

 

[Tusker]

Until the final sentence I pretty much agreed with every word!

because I didn't include older ERA bowlers ?