England's selection mistakes - Ben Stokes trying too hard?

[Forum363]

I know this match is ongoing, and England are still the favourites to win in home conditions.

However the selection for this match seems a bit baffling. They keep using the pitch as an excuse however it was very clear that this match would be played in overcast conditions for the most part. That, coupled with the fact that the pitches were unused, meant it was almost like the beginning of the English season - surely the think tank knew that the 'pitch it up'/ swing bowlers would be successful here.

And England had the ideal bowler in Stuart Broad. He bowled brilliantly in the ashes last summer and was their leading wicket taker on the last tour. He's arguably bowling the best he ever has, and has a ridiculous amount of experience in these conditions. There are also the very capable all-round pair of Woakes and Curran who could have provided some great balance to the side.

Instead - Stokes, perhaps in a bid to 'Do it his way' (the message left by Root on his captain's blazer), tried too hard to show himself as 'aggressive' and picked the pace bowlers.

Now Wood has been incredibly fast and bowled well, but is this the pitch for him? And Archer, who many posters consider to already be the 'BEST BOWLER IN THE WORLD' is playing only his 8th test. After a brilliant ashes series, he averages like 50. He has amazing potential and could go on to be ATG, but is he being too hyped here too early? He needs to develop his game and add skills instead of just bowling quick with great bouncers.

 

[Forum363]

Nasser on air just said the exact same thing about the slower bowlers being more effective.

 

[Markhor]

Broad didn't deserve to be dropped after the Ashes series and tour of South Africa he had.

However I'm not sure how much I'd read into these seam bowling selections given the plan seems to be to rotate with 6 Tests in a short period of time.

 

[shamaan]

Broad didn't deserve to be dropped after the Ashes series and tour of South Africa he had.

However I'm not sure how much I'd read into these seam bowling selections given the plan seems to be to rotate with 6 Tests in a short period of time.

Broad should have played ahead of wood it's the first test

 

[Forum363]

Broad didn't deserve to be dropped after the Ashes series and tour of South Africa he had.

However I'm not sure how much I'd read into these seam bowling selections given the plan seems to be to rotate with 6 Tests in a short period of time.

Yes but the 6 are not being rotated through a 'lucky dip'. The bowlers most suited to the conditions and match situation should play.

It makes no sense to have dropped Broad for this match.

 

[shamaan]

Yes but the 6 are not being rotated through a 'lucky dip'. The bowlers most suited to the conditions and match situation should play.

It makes no sense to have dropped Broad for this match.

Agreed I think its stokes decision

 

[Forum363]

Agreed I think its stokes decision

He was definitely more interested in making a statement as captain then picking the best bowlers available to him.

Archer and Wood might yet win England the game - but the point is, that decision makes no sense at the beginning of the match.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think Stokes is not suitable for captaincy. He doesn't seem to have any leadership quality.

This is the same guy who almost went to jail and they made him captain.

 

[Robert]

A couple of the bowlers are probably too quick for this deck.

Also I am surprised by the inclusion of Bess over Leach, given the number of WI right handers.

And why no Foakes - a better keeper and batter than Buttler.

 

[shamaan]

A couple of the bowlers are probably too quick for this deck.

Also I am surprised by the inclusion of Bess over Leach, given the number of WI right handers.

And why no Foakes - a better keeper and batter than Buttler.

Tbh bess has done more than a good job also better batesman that leach.

Buttler is thier as a keeper he don't have the technique or the mental strength to play long inings

 

[angrypathan]

Not playing Broad was a terrible decision

 

[shamaan]

He was definitely more interested in making a statement as captain then picking the best bowlers available to him.

Archer and Wood might yet win England the game - but the point is, that decision makes no sense at the beginning of the match.

Yes I agree hes trying to give statement.stokes would have been more than useful in these conditions even woakes

 

[Forum363]

A couple of the bowlers are probably too quick for this deck.

Also I am surprised by the inclusion of Bess over Leach, given the number of WI right handers.

And why no Foakes - a better keeper and batter than Buttler.

This is the first time I’m seeing Bess so I didn’t want to comment on his selection.

However, based on what I’ve seen so far he seems decidedly average. He’s just 22 years old and it’s hard to be an effective spinner at that age, especially as a conventional off spinner. He has nothing special about him, just some decent control for his age.

Again, a small sample size here and I could proven to be wrong, but nothing in his game suggests he’s superior to the likes of Moeen or Leach.

 

[MenInG]

Not playing Broad was a terrible decision

He didnt like it also!

Could hurt England badly in this Test.

 

[Robert]

This is the first time I’m seeing Bess so I didn’t want to comment on his selection.

However, based on what I’ve seen so far he seems decidedly average. He’s just 22 years old and it’s hard to be an effective spinner at that age, especially as a conventional off spinner. He has nothing special about him, just some decent control for his age.

Again, a small sample size here and I could proven to be wrong, but nothing in his game suggests he’s superior to the likes of Moeen or Leach.

He got two top six batters out. Let us see how he goes in the second WI innings after a day of sun.

 

[Saj]

Still a couple of days to go.

This could still all end well for England.

 

[Ab Fan]

Archer is overrated as I always said. He will have a few good series, take 100-120 wickets in about 30 tests and then fade away.

In contrast, Anderson and Broad have 588 and 485 test wickets to their name.

 

[Forum363]

Still a couple of days to go.

This could still all end well for England.

Absolutely, in fact I’d say they’re still the favourites from here. But that doesn’t excuse the selection which doesn’t make sense before the match.

 

[Hasan123]

Stuart Broad should have played this game.

 

[shaz619]

Broad didn't deserve to be dropped after the Ashes series and tour of South Africa he had.

However I'm not sure how much I'd read into these seam bowling selections given the plan seems to be to rotate with 6 Tests in a short period of time.

Don't worry, Broad will be nice and fresh for the Pakistan Batting line up

 

[Markhor]

Don't worry, Broad will be nice and fresh for the Pakistan Batting line up

Younis needs to stop watching videos of Jerome "New Jack" Young and get to work on his batters then.

 

[pratiktc]

No brother, they are keeping the Pak specialist Chris Woakes well rested for next series

 

[Mamoon]

Too much overreaction over dropping Broad for 1 Test. Wood and Archer are undroppable.

Anderson doesn’t have many tests left in him and Broad will take over from him as the senior bowler.

 

[Robert]

Too much overreaction over dropping Broad for 1 Test. Wood and Archer are undroppable.

Anderson doesn’t have many tests left in him and Broad will take over from him as the senior bowler.

I think Archer is highly droppable if he bowls at 83 mph and takes no wickets.

 

[Forum363]

I think Archer is highly droppable if he bowls at 83 mph and takes no wickets.

Actually according to [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], he is already the best bowler into the world. He has bowled well in around 4 test matches which is enough for him to be better than Cummins and Rabada and Shami. He’s also bowled brilliantly in the World Cup including a super over which puts him ahead of Starc and Boult. Also he’s better in all formats than Bumrah. Yes that includes T20s - where Archer has played a grand total of 1 match.

 

[Rana]

Actually according to [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], he is already the best bowler into the world. He has bowled well in around 4 test matches which is enough for him to be better than Cummins and Rabada and Shami. He’s also bowled brilliantly in the World Cup including a super over which puts him ahead of Starc and Boult. Also he’s better in all formats than Bumrah. Yes that includes T20s - where Archer has played a grand total of 1 match.

Yes, and Naseem is useless even though he has a Test hat trick at the age of 16.

 

[Rana]

Too much overreaction over dropping Broad for 1 Test. Wood and Archer are undroppable.

Anderson doesn’t have many tests left in him and Broad will take over from him as the senior bowler.

Wood undroppable? This isn’t ODI cricket. Broad is the best if not second best red ball bowler in England. I hate the guy but he is far superior than anyone in the England set up besides Anderson

 

[Usman]

He was definitely more interested in making a statement as captain then picking the best bowlers available to him.

Archer and Wood might yet win England the game - but the point is, that decision makes no sense at the beginning of the match.

I think Stokes is not suitable for captaincy. He doesn't seem to have any leadership quality.

This is the same guy who almost went to jail and they made him captain.

Not playing Broad was a terrible decision

Yes I agree hes trying to give statement.stokes would have been more than useful in these conditions even woakes

I think it's harsh and unfair to criticise Stokes and say he was trying to make a statement by not selecting Broad.

The reality is that Broad hasn't taken a 5-fer in home tests in YEARS. It must be something like 5 years. So to pretend he would have somehow run through the Windies here (something even the far superior Anderson didn't manage to do) is just fantasy. Not saying that it couldn't have happened, but looking at Broad's performance over the last 5 years, you have to say it was unlikely.

Plus it's always easy to pretend the grass is greener on the other side - I.e. when a player doesn't play and the team does badly, we all have the tendency of feeling that player would have made a difference and we tend to attach super powers to that player.

The reason Stokes went for Archer and Wood is because both have performed exceptionally in recent times. People say Broad shouldn't have been dropped after his performance in South Africa - well Mark Wood's performance was better than Broad's in South Africa. Just look at the stats.

I agree that this probably wasn't the track for Archer and Wood but it's easy to say these things in hindsight. Before the game, the prospect of Archer and Wood - two super fast bowlers - playing together was appealing to everyone.

Personally I actually rate Woakes above Broad when the ball is moving because Woakes gets much more movement than Broad and in my view, Woakes is a better bowler. Plus he can bat of course.

Whatever Broad may or may not have done, he wouldn't have been able to bat for Denly, Pope and Butler in this match so again, the impact of him being left out is overblown.

 

[shaz619]

On a wicket like this I'd have played Mo instead of Denly; their numbers are not far off except Mo has 5 Test Hundreds and nearly 200 Test wickets; Broad being dropped is a howler but I think an even bigger howler was the selection of Denly

 

[shaz619]

Younis needs to stop watching videos of Jerome "New Jack" Young and get to work on his batters then.

I like the fresh approach, the Batters could do with a little motivation from New Jack Younis you know how it goes, you have to show them the danda or should I say cutlery My biggest wish is for no second spike in August and some nice weather, then I can justify my purchase for a sky sports month long pass

 

[shamaan]

I think it's harsh and unfair to criticise Stokes and say he was trying to make a statement by not selecting Broad.

The reality is that Broad hasn't taken a 5-fer in home tests in YEARS. It must be something like 5 years. So to pretend he would have somehow run through the Windies here (something even the far superior Anderson didn't manage to do) is just fantasy. Not saying that it couldn't have happened, but looking at Broad's performance over the last 5 years, you have to say it was unlikely.

Plus it's always easy to pretend the grass is greener on the other side - I.e. when a player doesn't play and the team does badly, we all have the tendency of feeling that player would have made a difference and we tend to attach super powers to that player.

The reason Stokes went for Archer and Wood is because both have performed exceptionally in recent times. People say Broad shouldn't have been dropped after his performance in South Africa - well Mark Wood's performance was better than Broad's in South Africa. Just look at the stats.

I agree that this probably wasn't the track for Archer and Wood but it's easy to say these things in hindsight. Before the game, the prospect of Archer and Wood - two super fast bowlers - playing together was appealing to everyone.

Personally I actually rate Woakes above Broad when the ball is moving because Woakes gets much more movement than Broad and in my view, Woakes is a better bowler. Plus he can bat of course.

Whatever Broad may or may not have done, he wouldn't have been able to bat for Denly, Pope and Butler in this match so again, the impact of him being left out is overblown.

Am sure he got fifer against austrlia in england last year.broad average is 17 against west indies.yes wood performance in australia would be good as they are bouncy pitches which suit him.

 

[MenInG]

England have resumed international cricket with a blistering pace attack in the 1st Test vs West Indies, but statistics show their recourse to extra speed has been ill-suited to conditions in Southampton. Had Ben Stokes, in going for his Durham teammate Mark Wood over the slower but perhaps more probing Stuart Broad or Chris Woakes, already made his first strategic blunder before the first ball of the match?

Mark Wood’s average speed in this Test has been 144.64 kph, or 89.88 mph, the fastest innings performance by an English bowler in a home Test since such data has been recorded from 2006. He bowled a ball at 152.7 kph on Day 3,the fastest ball of his Test career.

Wood’s returns in the first innings were meagre though. His only wicket in a spell of 1-74 was West Indies No. 11 Shannon Gabriel. Jofra Archer, the other ace of pace in the England attack, went wicketless.

Anderson, who bowls at just above 80 mph, was the one who bowled the most overs. He delivered 11 maidens in his 25 overs. England’s three other seamers delivered 10 between them.

Speaking from the commentary box on Day 3, Nasser Hussain said England has traditionally looked for extra pace from fast bowlers – “Duncan Fletcher (England coach during his time), for instance, only looked for extra pace in a bowler”. They might have found the answers to their prayers in Wood, but the answer seems to have come at an inopportune time.

“Obviously you need control,” James Anderson said after the day’s play on Friday. “We saw West Indies bowl well. They had a couple of bowlers who offered control in Holder and (Kemar) Roach and that gave the quicker guys the freedom to bowl fast. You need a balance.”

Generating seam movement has seemed to be the way to go in the 1st Test so far. Jofra Archer and Ben Stokes have been the bowlers who have found the least movement in the match.

As an analysis showed during the day’s play on Friday, West Indies bowlers had extracted 1.7 degrees of swing, while England — even with the king of swing James Anderson in their ranks — were only able to manage 0.8 degrees.

As Hussain mentioned, in English conditions, probing lines at gentle pace has often proved to be more venomous than express pace.

https://indianexpress.com/article/s...ndies-test-extra-pace-wrong-strategy-6500849/

 

[Abdullah719]

England v West Indies: Ben Stokes says Stuart Broad is 'nowhere near done'

Stuart Broad is "nowhere near done" as an England player despite being left out of the first-Test defeat by West Indies, says stand-in captain Ben Stokes.

West Indies won a thrilling Test by four wickets on the final evening at Southampton to take a 1-0 lead in the three-match series.

Broad, 34, said he was "angry, frustrated and gutted" to be dropped.

"Stuart's interview was absolutely brilliant," Stokes told BBC Sport.

"For a guy who has played over 100 Tests and taken the amount of wickets he has to have that emotion and desire still burning inside is amazing."

Spoiler

Broad has taken 485 Test wickets in 138 Tests since making his debut in 2007, and had the second-highest tally in the world in the 12 months before this game.

However, England omitted him in favour of the returning Anderson, their all-time leading wicket-taker, and the extra pace of Jofra Archer and Mark Wood.

Without Broad, they opted to bat first in grey, damp conditions that are likely to have suited his bowling, instead bowling last on a pitch they hoped would wear enough to suit Archer and Wood.

Archer took 3-45 in the fourth innings, but West Indies overhauled a target of 200 thanks largely to Jermaine Blackwood's fine 95.

"In terms of the selection, if I was to regret that it doesn't send a very good message to the guys who played," said Stokes, captaining England for the first time in place of Joe Root, who was on paternity leave.

"We went with the decision that pace would do better for us in the long run on this game.

"You make decisions and you've got to stand by them. I'm not the type of person to look back and regret them."

England were bowled out for 204 in the first innings, then wasted a strong position in the second as they lost 5-30 late on the fourth day.

"We all know where we made the errors," said Stokes.

"You have to be good enough to put first-innings runs on the board, no matter what the conditions.

"We put another 60, 70 or 80 runs on what they had to chase and it's a completely different game."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/53383501

 

[Markhor]

Again, I would've played Broad in this Test but:

After the 2017/18 Ashes defeat all I heard from English pundits was that a four man right arm medium fast seam attack was too one dimensional and England needs out-and-out quicks to bowl with the Kookaburra on true surfaces. And if that meant sacrificing the odd home Test so be it for the sake of the long-term.

Now the team management tries to do exactly that, and it's the wrong decision, you need to pick 80mph seamers for these conditions etc.

I think both are fair arguments, hence I'd have picked one of Archer or Wood so you've got a pace option to utilise if the pitch is flat, and have the other more traditional English seamers alongside him.

 

[sindhiboy]

Stokes is given too much responsibility at no. 5. Pope should bat there. Pope can't bat with the tail like stokes, hence the reason couldn't score any reasons.


He is a perfect no. 6, can bat and hit boundaries while guiding the lower order and tail.

Also was the leading wicket taker this test. He may bat at no. 7 and slog if the order has a good day. He can't assume the responsibility of main batsman and main bowler.

 

[MenInG]

Jason Holder was surprised when England left out Stuart Broad for the first Test of their three-match series against his West Indies side.

The Windies won a close opening contest by four wickets, with a crucial 95 from Jermaine Blackwood helping the tourists get over the line on day five.

Broad, who has 485 Test wickets and impressed in South Africa at the end of last year, was left out of the line-up in Southampton by stand-in captain Ben Stokes.

Stokes also elected to bat first in overcast conditions, a move that came under scrutiny after England managed just 204 in their first innings.

West Indies captain Holder thought Broad would have played instead of either Jofra Archer or Mark Wood and was happy when Stokes opted to bat after winning the toss.

"This is a proud moment for us," Holder said in a column for the Daily Mail. "We really wanted to start this Test series well and to begin the way we have by winning the first Test is perfect.

"Looking back at the game, it was my preference to bowl first so I didn't mind England deciding to bat and then our bowlers simply bowled their hearts out on a pretty flat pitch.

"I was a little surprised England didn't pick Stuart Broad.

"His record, particularly in this country, is outstanding and I thought they would leave out either Jofra Archer or Mark Wood. But they put out a high quality attack, that's for sure.

"As it went on it became close to the complete West Indian performance. There's no doubt the game changer was that fourth afternoon when we took five wickets after tea.

"Then we were able to finish it off on the last day. It's been a while since we had Shannon Gabriel on the park due to injury so to see him back firing on all cylinders was brilliant.

"We were always confident we would get 200 to win but losing three quick wickets and John Campbell to injury wasn't ideal.

"But the partnership between Jermaine Blackwood and Roston Chase was just what we wanted and it was really good to see Jermaine going as deep as he did.

"This was a career-reviving innings for Jermaine. He's a very exciting player and he grabbed this opportunity with both hands."

The second Test at Old Trafford, for which Joe Root will return as the hosts' captain following the birth of his second child, starts on Thursday, with West Indies knowing they will retain the Wisden Trophy if they avoid defeat.

https://www.outlookindia.com/websit...urprised-england-left-out-stuart-broad/356665

 

[Forum363]

So the decision to drop Broad is really looking silly the more time goes on. It clearly cost them a test match and depending on how tomorrow goes with the weather - risks losing them the trophy.

All so we could watch Archer bowl some bouncers. Dropping Broad in the first test really was a terrible decision.

And for those arguing - ‘oh it motivated him etc’. Sorry but that is the stupidest reasoning I’ve heard. You might as well drop your star players at the beginning of every series to ‘fire them up’ and get them to perform well. I wonder how Broad got the other 450+ wickets considering he’s not been dropped much before?