Fact check - Was Jeff Thomson's speed measured at batsman's end?

[Tusker]

Time and again we get told by fans of 70s and 80s era cricketers that the speed measurements of fast bowlers that was done in the 70s was done at the batsmans end.

Please watch this Ch-9 clip of the competion. At two points between 5:55 to 6:16 and then from 14:55 - 15:11 it clearly states that the speed measured is release speed out of the bowlers hand !

Link: https://vimeo.com/307176925

I hope that his puts an end to one of the most wildly popular myth which has no basis.

There are other things that further confirm this:

1. The mesh like screen in the background that is used to measure the distance is only present at the bowlers end.

2. If it was indeed measured at the batsmans end all bowlers should have been bowling full tosses which is not the case. ( explained in the video from 14:55 )


[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its always measured at the bowlers end and not the batsman's end.

 

[Tusker]

Its always measured at the bowlers end and not the batsman's end.

There are plenty of posters who are adamant that it was measured at the batsmans end.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...n-bowler-in-Australia&p=10032085#post10032085

 

[jeetu]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

Thanks for uploading this version of the video. This is slightly different from 13 min version that is floating on youtube. 13 min version lacks any bowler interview.

Regarding the controversy. It was created by Jeff Thomson himself.
[Utube]Nol94jVqCXk[/Utube]

In the video its stated that temperature was 40C. So not the best conditions. This could led to slight dip on speed.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

Thanks for uploading this version of the video. This is slightly different from 13 min version that is floating on youtube. 13 min version lacks any bowler interview.

Regarding the controversy. It was created by Jeff Thomson himself.
[Utube]Nol94jVqCXk[/Utube]

In the video its stated that temperature was 40C. So not the best conditions. This could led to slight dip on speed.

This is what it is based ob

 

[jeetu]

Most people rely on this regarding bowling speed.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

1975 Study

The following speeds were measured at the WACA ground in Perth in December 1975, using "very accurate high speed cameras" and reported in the book "The Art of Fast Bowling" by DK Lillee, pp 27-30.

Player Kph Notes
Jeff Thomson 160.45
Jeff Thomson 160.45
Andy Roberts 159.49
Michael Holding 150.67 age 22
Dennis Lillee 148.54 sick at the time


1976 Study
Player Mph Kph
Jeff Thomson 99.8 160.6kph
Andy Roberts 97.8 157.4kph
Dennis Lillee 96.2 154.8kph
Michael Holding 95.2 153.2kph
Wayne Daniel 93.7 150.8kph
Bob Willis 90.7 145.9kph
Alan Ward 86.5 139.2kph
John Snow 86.2 138.7kph

Not much is known about 1976 study. I have not come across any video footage of it. Barely a line is written on this study. Hopefully someone can provide more info in it.

 

[Robert]

Its always measured at the bowlers end and not the batsman's end.

That is my understanding. It drops by 10 mph on the way to the bowler - more if a bouncer, less if pitched up.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Excellent work [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]. Now prepare yourself for the next round of excuses.

 

[reversehook]

Bowling speed which we are shown or is spoken about and is taken into account is the arm speed/release point of ball... as it travels further it slows down, if its a yorker it dips down a little bit, if its a bouncer it drops by a lot... what gets batsmen on both is the surprise factor of quickness and the height/direction... going back to speeds, alot of the reported speeds in the good ol days were off as the technology was very new and the margin of error was big aswell plus these things were exaggerated. I say exaggerated because batsmen wore less equipment back then, and short balls were allowed a plenty plus short ball was a weakness (still is to this day) and it made the bowlers look extra extra fast. Nowadays, we have all the science, coaches, techniques, etc yet we dont get bowlers going at 140 regularly, we have a select few bowlers who are up there consistently... high 130's are the norm...

 

[Robert]

That is my understanding. It drops by 10 mph on the way to the bowler - more if a bouncer, less if pitched up.

On the way to the batter I mean, obviously. When we say Thommo bowled at 100 mph that is the speed of the ball at the instant it left his hand.

 

[Varun]

Take Australian speed guns with a bucket of salt.

Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[Varun]

Just looked at the stats, Jeff Thomson seemed to be the Ashwin of his time:

Avg in Aus = 24.98

Avg in Eng = 31.30
Avg in NZ = 32.00
Avg in Pak = 98.33

Still better than Lillee I suppose, who refused to tour some countries full stop.

 

[Gilly]

Just looked at the stats, Jeff Thomson seemed to be the Ashwin of his time:

Avg in Aus = 24.98

Avg in Eng = 31.30
Avg in NZ = 32.00
Avg in Pak = 98.33

Still better than Lillee I suppose, who refused to tour some countries full stop.

Which countries did Lillee refuse to tour?.

 

[Robert]

Which countries did Lillee refuse to tour?.

Yes [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION], tell us which please.

 

[Varun]

Which countries did Lillee refuse to tour?.

India/Pakistan. Here's a PP thread on the subject:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...e-play-much-cricket-outside-Australia-England

 

[Robert]

Just looked at the stats, Jeff Thomson seemed to be the Ashwin of his time:

Avg in Aus = 24.98

Avg in Eng = 31.30
Avg in NZ = 32.00
Avg in Pak = 98.33

The England figures are distorted by the 1985 series where Thommo played only because everyone else was banned. He was a medium pacer by then who ran into a good England batting line on slow wickets.

As for NZ, the first test was rained off, the second he was too fast to exploit the slow seaming conditions - the match was won by the NZ dribblies - and the third was a spin wicket.

The Pakistan series was on spin wickets and even Imran didn’t bowl much until the third test where he got eight wickets for about eighty. He was a much better bowler than Thommo overall.

 

[Robert]

India/Pakistan. Here's a PP thread on the subject:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...e-play-much-cricket-outside-Australia-England

That is a PP thread, not evidence. When did Lillee refuse to tour?

 

[Varun]

The England figures are distorted by the 1985 series where Thommo played only because everyone else was banned. He was a medium pacer by then who ran into a good England batting line on slow wickets.

As for NZ, the first test was rained off, the second he was too fast to exploit the slow seaming conditions - the match was won by the NZ dribblies - and the third was a spin wicket.

The Pakistan series was on spin wickets and even Imran didn’t bowl much until the third test where he got eight wickets for about eighty. He was a much better bowler than Thommo overall.

Well, if we're in the business of making excuses after the event bet I can turn up with a truckload of justifications for Ashwin's docile performances outside of Asia as well.

Fact remains, an HTB is an HTB.

 

[Robert]

Well, if we're in the business of making excuses after the event bet I can turn up with a truckload of justifications for Ashwin's docile performances outside of Asia as well.

Fact remains, an HTB is an HTB.

What excuses were made?

Explain why Ashwin did not do well in England as I thought he would clean up against our terrible batters.

 

[Varun]

What excuses were made?

Explain why Ashwin did not do well in England as I thought he would clean up against our terrible batters.

The ones you made in your previous post - excuses on the nature of the pitch, the weather, other personnel in the team, whatnot.

Ashwin has not done well in England across two tours because he can't tailor his bowling to wickets outside the sub-continent: that is a fact. There is too much evidence to deny this by now.

 

[Gilly]

India/Pakistan. Here's a PP thread on the subject:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...e-play-much-cricket-outside-Australia-England

Can you answer the question on which countries that Lillee refused to tour, I can find any thing that proves that Lillee refused to tour any country.

 

[Robert]

The ones you made in your previous post - excuses on the nature of the pitch, the weather, other personnel in the team, whatnot.

Ashwin has not done well in England across two tours because he can't tailor his bowling to wickets outside the sub-continent: that is a fact. There is too much evidence to deny this by now.

Those are reasons, not “excuses”. Thommo’s figures in England look pretty good if you take out that last tour, when he was pressed back into service in his bowling dotage through being one of the last three men standing. Of course in 1975 and 1977 he had a dragon named Lillee to help him.

How should Ashwin “tailor his bowling” to suit English conditions? Surely a bowler of his ability can be effective here next time.

 

[Robert]

Can you answer the question on which countries that Lillee refused to tour, I can find any thing that proves that Lillee refused to tour any country.

He didn’t refuse. Australia never went to India in his career, and to Pakistan just once to which Lillee turned up despite carrying an injury. It’s another Indian history rewrite attempt.

 

[Varun]

Can you answer the question on which countries that Lillee refused to tour, I can find any thing that proves that Lillee refused to tour any country.

Lillee did not tour Pakistan in 1982, where Australia were beaten 0-3. Here is a quote and source:

Of all the short straws Kim Hughes drew in his career in the baggy green, none came with such spirit-sapping consequences as his appointment as skipper of Australia’s 1982 Pakistan tour, a six-week trip that regular captain Greg Chappell had given a wide berth for the sake of family and business interests. Hughes was without Dennis Lillee and Len Pascoe (both also withdrew) and Australia didn’t just lose the Tests 3-0, they and their stand-in skipper were comprehensively trounced. Losing being the habit it is, they didn’t win a single tour match either, only the second time for the century that Australia had been whitewashed on a Test tour.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/oct/28/the-joy-of-six-australian-tours-of-pakistan

 

[Varun]

How should Ashwin “tailor his bowling” to suit English conditions? Surely a bowler of his ability can be effective here next time.

He should play county cricket, figure out the nature of English wickets and how a spinner can exploit them and hope for the best the next time India tour England and if he's selected.

At the moment, he is using the sub-continental template overseas and it's clearly not working: by being outbowled by Moeen Ali and Nathan Lyon among others.

65 of his 342 wickets have come outside Asia in dribs and drabs, and that tells the story.

 

[Robert]

Lillee did not tour Pakistan in 1982, where Australia were beaten 0-3. Here is a quote and source:

Ok fair enough, but why didn’t DK tour? The man was well known for his never-say-die attitude and sheer determination so I expect he was out injured.

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] thx. This video used to be on YT about a year ago. Luckily I had downloaded it for my own analysis and was on my old laptop. Finally I tracked it down.

This is what it is based ob

What's your take now ... based on the information in the OP? I hope you have changed your opinion after seeing that.

 

[Varun]

Ok fair enough, but why didn’t DK tour? The man was well known for his never-say-die attitude and sheer determination so I expect he was out injured.

Doesn't look like it. Make of this what you will:

Captain Greg Chappell and fast bowlers Dennis Lillee and Len Pascoe who had all just toured New Zealand were all unavailable for selection on the tour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_cricket_team_in_Pakistan_in_1982–83

Sounds like cherry-picking to me.

 

[Robert]

He should play county cricket, figure out the nature of English wickets and how a spinner can exploit them and hope for the best the next time India tour England and if he's selected.

At the moment, he is using the sub-continental template overseas and it's clearly not working: by being outbowled by Moeen Ali and Nathan Lyon among others.

65 of his 342 wickets have come outside Asia in dribs and drabs, and that tells the story.

Good idea. When India beat England in 1986 Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, and Kapil had all played County or Club cricket in England.

 

[Tusker]

Lillee did not tour Pakistan in 1982, where Australia were beaten 0-3. Here is a quote and source:

Thanks for sharing that link ! Good stuff.

 

[Robert]

Doesn't look like it. Make of this what you will:



Sounds like cherry-picking to me.

Perhaps. The England players of the day disliked touring the Subcontinent for the most part. Botham and Gower even ducked the World Cup held there. They could get away with it as they were senior players. Maybe some of the Aussies did too.

 

[Varun]

Perhaps. The England players of the day disliked touring the Subcontinent for the most part. Botham and Gower even ducked the World Cup held there. They could get away with it as they were senior players. Maybe some of the Aussies did too.

Ian Botham also walked out of a tour of New Zealand - since you have watched England cricket for long, you might recall the season/year.

 

[Tusker]

That is my understanding. It drops by 10 mph on the way to the bowler - more if a bouncer, less if pitched up.

I hope you realize why one should take player words with a truckload of salt. Because if we go by Thommo's own words he easily bowled at 110mph .

There is no substitute for your own due diligence and thorough fact checking.

 

[Junaids]

Sorry, I’m not touching this thread with a barge pole.

We already know that the 1975-76 WACA in-match testing used the most accurate (500 frames per second) speed cameras ever used in cricket and found Thommo bowled at 160.4K.

Several months later he was retested at 160.6K.

I refuse to even touch the Channel 9 speed test three years later.

It used one camera, failed to measure release points or angles, and we have no idea what camera was used.

And Kerry Packer actually called Thommo, who was banned from cricket and halfway through a drunken lunch, and told him to go to the field and borrow some boots to be tested.

So sorry, I’m not getting into the one trial in the 1970’s which found every bowler’s pace to be 10-20K less than the reputable, evidence-based seventies speed testing.

 

[Robert]

Ian Botham also walked out of a tour of New Zealand - since you have watched England cricket for long, you might recall the season/year.

I don’t recall that. I think he only went there twice for tests, on the Brearley tour and the Willis tour. He was injured for the Gatting tour and didn’t go as I recall.

He went home from Pakistan injured in 1983 I think, as did Willis and Dilley leaving Gower with a threadbare attack.

 

[Junaids]

Just looked at the stats, Jeff Thomson seemed to be the Ashwin of his time:

Avg in Aus = 24.98

Avg in Eng = 31.30
Avg in NZ = 32.00
Avg in Pak = 98.33

Still better than Lillee I suppose, who refused to tour some countries full stop.

Yes, unfortunately Thommo was like Shoaib and Lee and Tait.

Very fast but not very skilful and unable to adapt to slow pitches.

Lillee was much better, and in the seventies was almost as quick: the WACA speed trial measured him at 154.8K in the actual Test match.

 

[jeetu]

[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] thx. This video used to be on YT about a year ago. Luckily I had downloaded it for my own analysis and was on my old laptop. Finally I tracked it down.



What's your take now ... based on the information in the OP? I hope you have changed your opinion after seeing that.

Glad that you saved it, i have taken backup of your version. However this one too seems bit incomplete. We can only hope someone will upload full version of it.
I was always on take that the tests was done with bowlers hand. It was pretty clear on 13 min version of the video itself. First time i saw it was surprising because i thought they should be atleast 7-10K faster. Even if we disregard the speed itself , this video give us comparative speed of the bowlers of the time. I wish it had included Kapil too.

 

[Gilly]

Doesn't look like it. Make of this what you will:



Sounds like cherry-picking to me.

It may sound like cherry picking to you but these cricketers needed to work and earn an income to support their family. Cricketers in the seventies could not play all year so unless wealthy, played minimal
tours. There is a reason a lot of earlier cricketers played more home matches, add in how an injury not only stops them playing cricket it would impact on their working life too.

 

[barah_admi]

Time and again we get told by fans of 70s and 80s era cricketers that the speed measurements of fast bowlers that was done in the 70s was done at the batsmans end.

Please watch this Ch-9 clip of the competion. At two points between 5:55 to 6:16 and then from 14:55 - 15:11 it clearly states that the speed measured is release speed out of the bowlers hand !

Link: https://vimeo.com/307176925

I hope that his puts an end to one of the most wildly popular myth which has no basis.

There are other things that further confirm this:

1. The mesh like screen in the background that is used to measure the distance is only present at the bowlers end.

2. If it was indeed measured at the batsmans end all bowlers should have been bowling full tosses which is not the case. ( explained in the video from 14:55 )



[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Really good work, especially for all those Aussies claiming Thompson was faster than Akhtar.

 

[jeetu]

I don’t recall that. I think he only went there twice for tests, on the Brearley tour and the Willis tour. He was injured for the Gatting tour and didn’t go as I recall.

He went home from Pakistan injured in 1983 I think, as did Willis and Dilley leaving Gower with a threadbare attack.

Botham was controversially dropped when India toured England in 1986. The matter got even more coverage when a topless model invaded pitch protesting about Ian Botham.

 

[Tusker]

Glad that you saved it, i have taken backup of your version. However this one too seems bit incomplete. We can only hope someone will upload full version of it.
I was always on take that the tests was done with bowlers hand. It was pretty clear on 13 min version of the video itself. First time i saw it was surprising because i thought they should be atleast 7-10K faster. Even if we disregard the speed itself , this video give us comparative speed of the bowlers of the time. I wish it had included Kapil too.

I have the full version. But had to chop it due to upload size limitations. The previous link I posted in the other thread was the full 30 min video. Let me know if you want me to upload it again. Thanks for backing it up. Crowd sourcing is the way to go !!

 

[Hitman]

Some of those great bowlers from the 70's and the 80's were top class, and some of them were incredibly fast as well. What's hard to accept is that some fans want to paint them as speed demons who were miles better than bowlers of the 90's. They were not, they were in the same league though.

But I'll admit that bowling standards went downhill after that, and Steyn is the only bowler who belongs to the same league as them.

 

[Oligochaetes]

So we can all agree that Shoaib AKhtar has bowled the fastest ever recorded delivery?

 

[Tusker]

Sorry, I’m not touching this thread with a barge pole.

We already know that the 1975-76 WACA in-match testing used the most accurate (500 frames per second) speed cameras ever used in cricket and found Thommo bowled at 160.4K.

Several months later he was retested at 160.6K.

I refuse to even touch the Channel 9 speed test three years later.

How do you know that those 2 tests did not have any issues? There isn't even a video that exists for those two tests. If anything I wouldn't touch those 2 atleast until we can see a footage.

It used one camera, failed to measure release points or angles, and we have no idea what camera was used.

The camera used had a Frame rate that is 20 times the normal rate which would be atleast 500 FPS ( = 20 x 25 fps ). It is mentioned right in the video. And how do you know it failed to measure release points ? What is the source for your claim.

And Kerry Packer actually called Thommo, who was banned from cricket and halfway through a drunken lunch, and told him to go to the field and borrow some boots to be tested.

So sorry, I’m not getting into the one trial in the 1970’s which found every bowler’s pace to be 10-20K less than the reputable, evidence-based seventies speed testing.

Was every bowler similarly bowling under influence ? And DR Frank Pyke who conducted the study is a reputed Professor.

 

[Tusker]

So we can all agree that Shoaib AKhtar has bowled the fastest ever recorded delivery?

That was never in doubt. Atleast not to those who go by hard facts

Really good work, especially for all those Aussies claiming Thompson was faster than Akhtar.

.

 

[jeetu]

I have the full version. But had to chop it due to upload size limitations. The previous link I posted in the other thread was the full 30 min video. Let me know if you want me to upload it again. Thanks for backing it up. Crowd sourcing is the way to go !!

Please do upload the full version.
Youtube is perhaps the best site for it.
Posting under

[utube] [/utube]

is best for PP as it provides preview.

Or you can use Mega , GoogleDrive , Dropbox etc to preserve best quality.

 

[Tusker]

Please do upload the full version.
Youtube is perhaps the best site for it.
Posting under

[utube] [/utube]

is best for PP as it provides preview.

Or you can use Mega , GoogleDrive , Dropbox etc to preserve best quality.

YT is too strict ... I will upload elsewhere and let you know.

 

[jeetu]

I think guys like Akhtar , Lee , Tait etc were very close to maximum human limit of bowling fast. Thommo at his peak might have matched them but i don't think he could ever crossed them by good margin like in his interview claim.

 

[jeetu]

YT is too strict ... I will upload elsewhere and let you know.

Thanks

 

[barah_admi]

I think guys like Akhtar , Lee , Tait etc were very close to maximum human limit of bowling fast. Thommo at his peak might have matched them but i don't think he could ever crossed them by good margin like in his interview claim.

They said that about the likes of Powel land Gatlin in the 100m...could anyone run faster and then along came Bolt.

So I think faster balls can be bowled but it may depend on when it happens, as the trend now is for fast bowlers to...well, not be so fast. Pitches will have to improve for that.

 

[jeetu]

They said that about the likes of Powel land Gatlin in the 100m...could anyone run faster and then along came Bolt.

So I think faster balls can be bowled but it may depend on when it happens, as the trend now is for fast bowlers to...well, not be so fast. Pitches will have to improve for that.

It has been 15 years and no has crossed Akhtar's mark of 161.3kph (2003).

 

[EliteCynical]

Ok fair enough, but why didn’t DK tour? The man was well known for his never-say-die attitude and sheer determination so I expect he was out injured.

It is a well known fact that DK did not like Kim Hughes one bit. In fact he used to go for Hughes' head in the nets.
Lillee thought his mate Marsh should be captain. He was probably right. Marsh had a sharper cricket brain than Hughes and is, along with Shane Warne, Australia's great lost captain. But Lillee's response to Hughes's promotion was more than a little dubious. In the nets, Lillee would bowl line and length to everyone, until Hughes arrived. Then he would come on off his long run and ram in a series of bouncers. Hughes needed an X-ray before the start of the 1982-83 Ashes, with fears that Lillee had broken his forearm. In Golden Boy, the former Australian batsman Craig Serjeant describes the time Lillee followed through to collect a bouncer and said 'Sorry'. Hughes replied, 'Oh that's OK', at which point Lillee growled 'Sorry I didn't fcukin hit ya'.



Last days of the Chappell era
In three Tests, Hughes scored only 29 runs on tour in New Zealand in March 1982.[101] Greg Chappell withdrew from the Australian team to tour Pakistan in 1982, along with Dennis Lillee and Len Pascoe.[102] The fourteen Australian Cricket Board delegates met in March to decide on an interim captain for the tour, with the two candidates Hughes and Rod Marsh. Hughes narrowly won the vote, 8 votes to 6. Marsh was offered the vice-captaincy, which he declined.[103] Marsh later withdrew from the tour as a result of his son's illness.[102] It was a difficult tour for Hughes' Australians. All members of the touring squad suffered from illness at one stage and at one stage Hughes threatened to take his team back to Australia after several Australian fielders were hit by projectiles thrown from the stands. Intelligent bowling by Pakistan's Abdul Qadir combined with poor fielding and lack of depth in Australia's batting saw Pakistan defeat Australia three Tests to nil


I can provide the sources if you want. Kim Hughes story brings a tear to my eye. He was supremely talented.

 

[Tusker]

It may sound like cherry picking to you but these cricketers needed to work and earn an income to support their family. Cricketers in the seventies could not play all year so unless wealthy, played minimal
tours. There is a reason a lot of earlier cricketers played more home matches, add in how an injury not only stops them playing cricket it would impact on their working life too.

according to [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] , [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and other Old era cricket fans ... these players were just as professional as the current lot. There is no end to the gross exaggerations in order to paint a glorious never before seen picture of cricket back in those days.

 

[Suleiman]

Sick of the "ah yes the good ol' days" type posts where every average joe batsmen is revered as a Leonardo DaVinci type visionary and every random bowler threw thunderbolts across the pitch. Too many people are high as a kite on nostalgia, so good job OP.

Too many times this day and age performances are thrown in the mud because players these days "wouldn't last" against players of yesteryears.

 

[Tusker]

Sick of the "ah yes the good ol' days" type posts where every average joe batsmen is revered as a Leonardo DaVinci type visionary and every random bowler threw thunderbolts across the pitch. Too many people are high as a kite on nostalgia, so good job OP.

Too many times this day and age performances are thrown in the mud because players these days "wouldn't last" against players of yesteryears.

Yup quite maddening. I don't mind if it was actually true and these posters could substantiate their tall stories with proper facts. Sadly none of them stick around for a proper meaningful discussion. they will almost always slip away from such threads when the going gets tough .. but will not stop the lecturing next day on the same topic as though nothing happened the previous day.

 

[Robert]

Botham was controversially dropped when India toured England in 1986. The matter got even more coverage when a topless model invaded pitch protesting about Ian Botham.

Ah yes, after her invasion Kris Srikkanth started playing and missing, and Edmonds stepped up from silly mid on to mop his brow!

 

[barah_admi]

It has been 15 years and no has crossed Akhtar's mark of 161.3kph (2003).

Never say never.....

 

[yasir]

There is always glorification of past, we all saw Johnson in 2014 Ashes, he was running havoc in English camp in 2014, when protective gear was so much better than 1970s, his 150k thunderbolts were looking more like 160+ because of skidish nature of bounce and left arm angle. I don’t think Thompson ever bolt that good in any Ashes, Johnson decimated half of English team(again with so much coaching stuff and video photage available now a days...Yet he never crossed 155 in that series, but his avg speed was 147/148 in those fast spells, that was key...

BTW: I have seen Chapman pitching thunder bolt at 105/106 MPH behind plate, non of the photage of any fast bowler looks anywhere close to that...Chapman is on the high end of pitching spectrum in MLB, bowling is always going to be slower than pitching, physics and data behind that supports that argument too...

I did not see any evidence that Thomo was yard faster than Akthar/Lee, he was faster than rest, but so were Akthar/Lee...This has always been an emotional argument than data driven.

 

[Tusker]

There is always glorification of past, we all saw Johnson in 2014 Ashes, he was running havoc in English camp in 2014, when protective gear was so much better than 1970s, his 150k thunderbolts were looking more like 160+ because of skidish nature of bounce and left arm angle. I don’t think Thompson ever bolt that good in any Ashes, Johnson decimated half of English team(again with so much coaching stuff and video photage available now a days...Yet he never crossed 155 in that series, but his avg speed was 147/148 in those fast spells, that was key...

BTW: I have seen Chapman pitching thunder bolt at 105/106 MPH behind plate, non of the photage of any fast bowler looks anywhere close to that...Chapman is on the high end of pitching spectrum in MLB, bowling is always going to be slower than pitching, physics and data behind that supports that argument too...

I did not see any evidence that Thomo was yard faster than Akthar/Lee, he was faster than rest, but so were Akthar/Lee...This has always been an emotional argument than data driven.

Quite right. Emotion+Nostalgia form a very potent mix. Facts don't stand a chance against that combination. In fact I have in the past used the baseball pitchers example. [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] response was that Fast bowlers are faster than baseball pitchers because of the momentum from runup

 

[Chief Destroyer]

There is always glorification of past, we all saw Johnson in 2014 Ashes, he was running havoc in English camp in 2014, when protective gear was so much better than 1970s, his 150k thunderbolts were looking more like 160+ because of skidish nature of bounce and left arm angle. I don’t think Thompson ever bolt that good in any Ashes, Johnson decimated half of English team(again with so much coaching stuff and video photage available now a days...Yet he never crossed 155 in that series, but his avg speed was 147/148 in those fast spells, that was key...

BTW: I have seen Chapman pitching thunder bolt at 105/106 MPH behind plate, non of the photage of any fast bowler looks anywhere close to that...Chapman is on the high end of pitching spectrum in MLB, bowling is always going to be slower than pitching, physics and data behind that supports that argument too...

I did not see any evidence that Thomo was yard faster than Akthar/Lee, he was faster than rest, but so were Akthar/Lee...This has always been an emotional argument than data driven.

Johnson did cross 155 and bowled plenty 150+. It was steep bounce off a good length not skiddish. Where he was pitching the ball, most bowlers would get it to stomach height but he got it rise up to the throat.

That was as quick short bowling gets over a long period. Akhtar could bowl a bit faster and get the ball to rise like that but he never focused on accuracy until later in his career when he'd lost his knees.

 

[Robert]

There is always glorification of past, we all saw Johnson in 2014 Ashes, he was running havoc in English camp in 2014, when protective gear was so much better than 1970s, his 150k thunderbolts were looking more like 160+ because of skidish nature of bounce and left arm angle. I don’t think Thompson ever bolt that good in any Ashes, Johnson decimated half of English team(again with so much coaching stuff and video photage available now a days...Yet he never crossed 155 in that series, but his avg speed was 147/148 in those fast spells, that was key...

BTW: I have seen Chapman pitching thunder bolt at 105/106 MPH behind plate, non of the photage of any fast bowler looks anywhere close to that...Chapman is on the high end of pitching spectrum in MLB, bowling is always going to be slower than pitching, physics and data behind that supports that argument too...

I did not see any evidence that Thomo was yard faster than Akthar/Lee, he was faster than rest, but so were Akthar/Lee...This has always been an emotional argument than data driven.

He took 10% of 50% of the wickets to fall, you say? That’s five wickets. I think you’ll find he did a lot better than that!

 

[Robert]

Johnson did cross 155 and bowled plenty 150+. It was steep bounce off a good length not skiddish. Where he was pitching the ball, most bowlers would get it to stomach height but he got it rise up to the throat.

Very similar to Thommo in that regard. In addition to his great pace (prior to the 1976 injury) Thommo got enormous lift off the wicket due to that javelin action.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Very similar to Thommo in that regard. In addition to his great pace (prior to the 1976 injury) Thommo got enormous lift off the wicket due to that javelin action.

Yeah, he did, but not quite the accuracy.

 

[Hawkeye]

The England figures are distorted by the 1985 series where Thommo played only because everyone else was banned. He was a medium pacer by then who ran into a good England batting line on slow wickets.

As for NZ, the first test was rained off, the second he was too fast to exploit the slow seaming conditions - the match was won by the NZ dribblies - and the third was a spin wicket.

The Pakistan series was on spin wickets and even Imran didn’t bowl much until the third test where he got eight wickets for about eighty. He was a much better bowler than Thommo overall.

You can find that kind of excuses for literally ALL the bowlers who have poor averages in certain countries.

It's not exclusive to him.

At the end of the day, Jeff was very very average in Eng/NZ/Pak, more than half of major world cricket.

 

[Hawkeye]

Sick of the "ah yes the good ol' days" type posts where every average joe batsmen is revered as a Leonardo DaVinci type visionary and every random bowler threw thunderbolts across the pitch. Too many people are high as a kite on nostalgia, so good job OP.

Too many times this day and age performances are thrown in the mud because players these days "wouldn't last" against players of yesteryears.

Yeah.

Jeff averaged 98 in Pakistan. ) )) )

Above 30 in Eng/NZ.

HORRIBLE.

Yes, I know excuses are coming, but you can bring up such excuses for any bowler who has a poor average in a group of countries.

 

[Robert]

You can find that kind of excuses for literally ALL the bowlers who have poor averages in certain countries.

It's not exclusive to him.

At the end of the day, Jeff was very very average in Eng/NZ/Pak, more than half of major world cricket.

He cut a rather sad figure in 1985. Terror Thommo reduced to medium pace. Lillee would have been a better bet for that series as even at medium pace he still had his his cut and swing, but he retired the year before with his great mates Greg and Rod.

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]

How do you know that those 2 tests did not have any issues? There isn't even a video that exists for those two tests. If anything I wouldn't touch those 2 atleast until we can see a footage.



The camera used had a Frame rate that is 20 times the normal rate which would be atleast 500 FPS ( = 20 x 25 fps ). It is mentioned right in the video. And how do you know it failed to measure release points ? What is the source for your claim.




Was every bowler similarly bowling under influence ? And DR Frank Pyke who conducted the study is a reputed Professor.

No response [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] ?

 

[yasir]

Johnson did cross 155 and bowled plenty 150+. It was steep bounce off a good length not skiddish. Where he was pitching the ball, most bowlers would get it to stomach height but he got it rise up to the throat.

That was as quick short bowling gets over a long period. Akhtar could bowl a bit faster and get the ball to rise like that but he never focused on accuracy until later in his career when he'd lost his knees.

That’s not true, look at length of Johnson deliveries they are half way down or even shorter... Johnson key was keeping up the pace and bounce to Chin and right about. He was still bowling deliveries half way down not good length...In this case we have footage, hard to fake it

 

[Chief Destroyer]

That’s not true, look at length of Johnson deliveries they are half way down or even shorter... Johnson key was keeping up the pace and bounce to Chin and right about. He was still bowling deliveries half way down not good length...In this case we have footage, hard to fake it ������

Yeah, that's totally skidding through. That's tennis ball bounce pinging off just short of a length. Every time he pulled his length back, the fall blew over the batsman because of how much bounce he was generating. If you can't see that, you don't understand fast bowling.

 

[Tusker]

Please do upload the full version.
Youtube is perhaps the best site for it.
Posting under

[utube] [/utube]

is best for PP as it provides preview.

Or you can use Mega , GoogleDrive , Dropbox etc to preserve best quality.

[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] here you go the full version : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ySSVbAuWZWBOVY8XK43Np64wB1RyvUGc/view?usp=sharing

 

[jeetu]

[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] here you go the full version : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ySSVbAuWZWBOVY8XK43Np64wB1RyvUGc/view?usp=sharing

Thanks a lot. Its a great video which got preserved because of you. Its the 38 min which more than twice the length of any other version out there. Sadly this too seems incomplete as its missing the last part. However it seems that most of the missing version is covered in 15 min version.

 

[Tusker]

Thanks a lot. Its a great video which got preserved because of you. Its the 38 min which more than twice the length of any other version out there. Sadly this too seems incomplete as its missing the last part. However it seems that most of the missing version is covered in 15 min version.

thanks for the kind words but I didnt realize that the 15 min version had other content in it. thanks!

But no surprise that the old era fanatics have all disappeared from this thread as expected. Pretty sure someone will popup in a different thread months later and continue the same drivel again.

 

[jeetu]

thanks for the kind words but I didnt realize that the 15 min version had other content in it. thanks!

But no surprise that the old era fanatics have all disappeared from this thread as expected. Pretty sure someone will popup in a different thread months later and continue the same drivel again.

You are correct on that count. I have already seen my share of threads regarding 1979 bowling competition. However no one put in the hard work like you.
But people from time to time tried to measure yesteryears bowlers speed.
There use to be old thread where a poster tried to measure speed of old bowlers by counting frames in a delivery. One guy in youtube tried to compare Akhtar fastest delivery with Thommo quick yorker etc by going frame by frame.
There was also a youtube video where there was a effort to calculate Larwood's speed during bodyline fro old footage.

 

[Tusker]

You are correct on that count. I have already seen my share of threads regarding 1979 bowling competition. However no one put in the hard work like you.
But people from time to time tried to measure yesteryears bowlers speed.
There use to be old thread where a poster tried to measure speed of old bowlers by counting frames in a delivery. One guy in youtube tried to compare Akhtar fastest delivery with Thommo quick yorker etc by going frame by frame.
There was also a youtube video where there was a effort to calculate Larwood's speed during bodyline fro old footage.

Unless both videos being compared are recorded in the same frame rate it is very difficult to compare (It can be done but it's a headache) and then there is the pitch factor. So basically we have to go looking for fulltosses to measure speed. The simplest way in my opinion is to just look at the bowling action and amount of effort. You just know whether you are seeing a fast bowler or a trundler most times. Lindwall, Miller, Bedserr, Frank Tyson etc are all great examples. There is no way in gods green earth that these bowlers are the lethal "fast" bowlers that their records ( Avg < 25 ) suggest.

The Larwood speed measurement thingy though is just plain wrong! They claim it was done using triangulation ... well the thing is we cannot triangulate from a 2-D video.

 

[jeetu]

Unless both videos being compared are recorded in the same frame rate it is very difficult to compare (It can be done but it's a headache) and then there is the pitch factor. So basically we have to go looking for fulltosses to measure speed. The simplest way in my opinion is to just look at the bowling action and amount of effort. You just know whether you are seeing a fast bowler or a trundler most times. Lindwall, Miller, Bedserr, Frank Tyson etc are all great examples. There is no way in gods green earth that these bowlers are the lethal "fast" bowlers that their records ( Avg < 25 ) suggest.

The Larwood speed measurement thingy though is just plain wrong! They claim it was done using triangulation ... well the thing is we cannot triangulate from a 2-D video.

[utube]GjkBNxKZOE8[/utube]
Looks like 15-35 sec from the video is from older speed test , what do you think ?

 

[Tusker]

Looks like 15-35 sec from the video is from older speed test , what do you think ?

Yep I have seen that ... But since the camera used is the same (as the one in 1979 tests ) which is stated at 3:15 https://youtu.be/GjkBNxKZOE8?t=195 its most likely that they made some mistakes in the earlier tests that were rectified in the 1979 test. Otherwise there is no explanation for the drastic reduction of speed for all bowlers. And I know from my yrs of cricket watching exerience that the 1979 results are closer to the norm than the others. But there is no doubt that all of them were measured at bowlers end not at the batsmans end.

 

[yasir]

I would like to see a photage that beats Akthar bouncer in Gabba back in 2002 super series with Tier 1 Auses??

The other point is that this bouncer is one of the best recorded, it passes the batsman at head height, yet was a real lifter, climbs 12 feet over keeper and few bounces to boundary and yet speed was 148, In same over Akthar bowled 154 clicks, which was more fuller in length, means fuller length will be always faster than short ones.

Akthar bowler lot of deadly Yorkers in late 90s, some of his Yorkers and fuller length deliveries in 1999 WC were really fast and nobody recorded speed, who knows how fast they were, they were so fast Umpires had hard time reading them, plumb LBWs not given

 

[Rightarmfast]

Thanks for the video. Proves the point which a lot of us were making that Imran Khan was no more than a fast medium bowler. No way was he express or even fast. As you can hear the great RIchie Benaud mentioning the same. He also goes on to say how Imran khan would waste the new ball!

 

[Robert]

Thanks for the video. Proves the point which a lot of us were making that Imran Khan was no more than a fast medium bowler. No way was he express or even fast. As you can hear the great RIchie Benaud mentioning the same. He also goes on to say how Imran khan would waste the new ball!

He looks quick to me here. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EOyW9TY1t6g

In the seventies he bowled medium pace, but quickened up by the Packer era. Footage of him in 1987 in England suggests he was no longer quick, but he could have deliberately slowed down a bit to exploit the conditions.

 

[Rightarmfast]

He looks quick to me here. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EOyW9TY1t6g

In the seventies he bowled medium pace, but quickened up by the Packer era. Footage of him in 1987 in England suggests he was no longer quick, but he could have deliberately slowed down a bit to exploit the conditions.

In all fairness, I honestly feel he was mostly fast medium, occassionally bowling around 145 and hitting 140's regularly, at his quickest.