Flavour of the month one moment, on the scrapheap the next - no middle ground with Pakistan fans

[Markhor]

Pakistan's selectors are rightly criticised for short-termism. Instead of placing individual performances in a wider context, players are fast tracked into internationals after one good domestic season while consistent failures in previous years, conditions and strength of opposition are ignored. However they're merely a reflection of the Pakistani public. There are many examples of players going from hero to zero and vice-versa in a short period of time:

Exhibit A: After PSL 1, Mohammad Nawaz was the flavour of the month all-rounder. He turned the ball on dry, used UAE wickets. When bowling on true wickets, he was exposed.

Exhibit B: Shadab Khan after PSL 2 was seen as a future superstar (still is by some including management). He was a novelty who batsmen hadn't studied. Fans screamed for Shadab's international debut despite scant FC experience. And for a while he justified the hype. 3.5 years on, opponents have analysed him and are picking him easily.

Exhibit C: Asif Ali. Fans praised this monster six hitter after PSL 3 as answer to our powerhitting woes. Despite averaging in the 20s in domestic, he debuted in internationals but was soon exposed.

Exhibit D: Sahibzada Farhan...remember him ?

Exhibit E: Khushdil Shah. Fans cursed Misbah for not debuting this powerhitter with insane domestic white ball stats. Yet upon close inspection of his technique, Khushdil is clueless against anything pitched on 5th stump and has been ruthlessly exposed vs New Zealand. Now Misbah is lambasted for selecting him.

Exhibit F: Now Mohammad Rizwan is answer to our wicketkeeper batsman woes in white ball cricket after his Napier performance. Rizwan's rightfully our #1 keeper in Tests. However Pakistan must learn to differentiate the formats.

His T20I record prior to this 89 was 17 at SR of 97. Now he's lifted that to 22 at 108. In the National T20, Rizwan's SR was 127 despite opening with field restrictions. Even what we consider T20 misfits like Khurram Manzoor, Imam-ul-Haq and Haris Sohail had better SRs at 135, 144 and 132.

His previous 10 T20I innings read: 22(26), 17(16), 0*(3), 5*(5), 0(1), 14(16), 31(33), 26(22), 1*(1) and 2(5). The opening experiment failed in the first two T20s and the series was lost. Yet there's some claiming not to understand why some are skeptical about whether Rizwan can maintain this T20 run. If Rizwan has turned a corner, great ! But the same fans claiming "the haterzz have been owned" today will be the same ones cursing him after the next failure.

Unless we get out of this mentality that one good match or season defines a player's worth and start looking at long-term performances - then don't cry about Pakistan's inconsistency when you select players who've never demonstrated it in the first place !

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Wont be long before they drop Haider Ali.
Already they have picked and dropped Shafiq, when he shouldn't have even been on this tour.

 

[Mercurial]

Pakistan cricket fans are like Traffic lights.

 

[Markhor]

Wont be long before they drop Haider Ali.
Already they have picked and dropped Shafiq, when he shouldn't have even been on this tour.

Now there's certain fans demanding Imran Butt's inclusion for the NZ Tests.

Yet one look at his record where 19/20 was his only FC season where he averaged above 40 (on dead flat pitches), and one look at his technique will tell you he won't last in these conditions.

And the same fans will lambast his selection.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Good posts. We need some long-term planning and consistency in selections - Misbah in picking Khushdil and Abdullah Shafique has done his level best to deflect pressure off of himself by picking a youngster. Fans are equally quick to praise Rizwan, despite an underwhelming track record.

Abdullah and Haider need more time in first class cricket. We are potentially wasting two batting talents that come through the Pakistan system only once every 10 years.

 

[Xoib]

Now there's certain fans demanding Imran Butt's inclusion for the NZ Tests.

Yet one look at his record where 19/20 was his only FC season where he averaged above 40 (on dead flat pitches), and one look at his technique will tell you he won't last in these conditions.

And the same fans will lambast his selection.

I agree with gist of the thread but name me one option other then Rizwan for limuted overs team.
Sarfraz was in the decline before he was shown the door. The likes of Azam Khan and that Multan guy are your typical PSL picks you hate couple of sixes and they get free pass to the team, none other keeper in domestic cricket is raising his hand.
Rizwan despite all his flaws in the best option and should be backed.

 

[UP]

Because majority of people here dont understand the game well. They scream for youngsters and when they show up and fail to deliver - they want the chop. Rinse and repeat.

ItÂ’s the job of selectors to pick players for the right format. PSL heroics shouldn’t get you in the Test or ODI teams. And if you do pick them - give them a consistent run. If a mediocre player like Malik can play for 21 years - why can’t a new player play for 15 matches straight? If you pick somebody - at least give them a consistent run. The green cap should be earned in domestic, not in PSL.

The way they treated the new Shafiq - its not right. He is not a T20 player to begin with. And now you have dented his confidence. It will take a while for him to recover.

 

[Greenstorm]

Now there's certain fans demanding Imran Butt's inclusion for the NZ Tests.

Yet one look at his record where 19/20 was his only FC season where he averaged above 40 (on dead flat pitches), and one look at his technique will tell you he won't last in these conditions.

And the same fans will lambast his selection.

Saw Imran Butt's batting earlier this season and I was surprised that such mediocre batsman was rated so highly at PP.

Generally, judgement of PPers regarding our players have been good but a lot of posters have lost the plot of late. But still, I believe that a squad selected by voting on PP would be lot better than the chacha bacha group Misbah keeps on selecting.

 

[Mamoon]

In LOIs, Who would you replace Rizwan with? There is no alternative right now.

 

[hitthestump]

The biggest flip-flop is how people are now calling for the re-selection of Shoaib Malik

 

[hitthestump]

Fans are equally quick to praise Rizwan, despite an underwhelming track record

Huh? Rizwan has a very good FC record even if he wasn't a keeper-batsman. He also has ODI centuries against Australia and was one of the stand outs in a tough tour of England with bat and glove. All this has happened in the last couple of years.

T20 might not be his format but Rizwan is clearly a big talent and his record speaks for itself if you actually go and check.

 

[Hasan123]

In LOIs, Who would you replace Rizwan with? There is no alternative right now.

One of those PP talent spotter threads player. They are the answer.

Rizwan is one of our best players and yet he is getting stick lol.

 

[Xoib]

In LOIs, Who would you replace Rizwan with? There is no alternative right now.

Don't like the guy but he has been on point with respect to Rizwan.

People are labeling this rizwan knock as fluke and worst thing that could happen to the limited overs side.
Name one suitable replacement we have who can give half the output both with gloves and bat and you can remove him.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Huh? Rizwan has a very good FC record even if he wasn't a keeper-batsman. He also has ODI centuries against Australia and was one of the stand outs in a tough tour of England with bat and glove. All this has happened in the last couple of years.

T20 might not be his format but Rizwan is clearly a big talent and his record speaks for itself if you actually go and check.

Underwhelming T20 track record, I meant.

I love Rizwan the longer formats player.

 

[thecrusade911]

Just suggest the alternative for Rizwan. Don't repeat same thing that Rizwan is not a T20 player.

 

[last_knight]

Underwhelming T20 track record, I meant.

I love Rizwan the longer formats player.

03 years ago, I was the only one to vote for Rizwan as replacement of MisYou after their retirements. I had been saying it for few years that Rizwan, The Batsman, will be at his best in Test Cricket. And he should be batting at #6 atleast, if not at #5.

wrt T20 and ODIs, he can be a key batsman if he bats in top order.

 

[Smudger]

Well you are extremely right. But ....
1. Khushdil even though he looks below par but he should be given a long rope given his domestic performances.
2. Rizwan has earned the right to be given a longer run.
I dont rate players like Musa,Abdullah Shafique, Shadab and Hussain. They are played after having one good season which is ridiculous.

 

[Major]

fans cried for youngsters all their life, and now that we have got a line up of youngsters playing, Misbah to be blamed.

I really had high hopes from Shadab, I still do. But it seems the guy isn't good enough.

Shadab will have to be given one format. Either Test or Limited overs. Leg spinners dont survive playing two formats

Imran Tahir was the king of limited overs, but Yasir shah rules in test.

Problem with Shadab is that he doesn't even spin the ball anymore, and his googly is soo obvious.
He has to change the line of his bowling to bowl the googly.

 

[ads101]

I think the problem is fans assume that players get better the more they play. It isn't true for most. Usually the more games you play, the more you get worked out and exposed. We've seen tons of cricketers start of brightly and then decline (Umar Akmal, Jamshed even Fakhar). Then we criticise the guys who have been able to cement their spot in the side when most couldn't, expecting them to be excellent performers because of the number of games they have played. When in reality it is hard enough just being average/slightly higher than average consistently.

Thus we need to find cricketers who are consistent more than flash in the pan. The bar for entry to international cricket is too low. In my opinion you should have multiple good consistent domestic seasons over multiple formats (and preferably success in PSL if you are to be a limited overs player). This should be true for even talented youngsters, let them secure their places first in domestic before international call ups.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Pakistan's selectors are rightly criticised for short-termism. Instead of placing individual performances in a wider context, players are fast tracked into internationals after one good domestic season while consistent failures in previous years, conditions and strength of opposition are ignored. However they're merely a reflection of the Pakistani public. There are many examples of players going from hero to zero and vice-versa in a short period of time:

Exhibit A: After PSL 1, Mohammad Nawaz was the flavour of the month all-rounder. He turned the ball on dry, used UAE wickets. When bowling on true wickets, he was exposed.

Exhibit B: Shadab Khan after PSL 2 was seen as a future superstar (still is by some including management). He was a novelty who batsmen hadn't studied. Fans screamed for Shadab's international debut despite scant FC experience. And for a while he justified the hype. 3.5 years on, opponents have analysed him and are picking him easily.

Exhibit C: Asif Ali. Fans praised this monster six hitter after PSL 3 as answer to our powerhitting woes. Despite averaging in the 20s in domestic, he debuted in internationals but was soon exposed.

Exhibit D: Sahibzada Farhan...remember him ?

Exhibit E: Khushdil Shah. Fans cursed Misbah for not debuting this powerhitter with insane domestic white ball stats. Yet upon close inspection of his technique, Khushdil is clueless against anything pitched on 5th stump and has been ruthlessly exposed vs New Zealand. Now Misbah is lambasted for selecting him.

Exhibit F: Now Mohammad Rizwan is answer to our wicketkeeper batsman woes in white ball cricket after his Napier performance. Rizwan's rightfully our #1 keeper in Tests. However Pakistan must learn to differentiate the formats.

His T20I record prior to this 89 was 17 at SR of 97. Now he's lifted that to 22 at 108. In the National T20, Rizwan's SR was 127 despite opening with field restrictions. Even what we consider T20 misfits like Khurram Manzoor, Imam-ul-Haq and Haris Sohail had better SRs at 135, 144 and 132.

His previous 10 T20I innings read: 22(26), 17(16), 0*(3), 5*(5), 0(1), 14(16), 31(33), 26(22), 1*(1) and 2(5). The opening experiment failed in the first two T20s and the series was lost. Yet there's some claiming not to understand why some are skeptical about whether Rizwan can maintain this T20 run. If Rizwan has turned a corner, great ! But the same fans claiming "the haterzz have been owned" today will be the same ones cursing him after the next failure.

Unless we get out of this mentality that one good match or season defines a player's worth and start looking at long-term performances - then don't cry about Pakistan's inconsistency when you select players who've never demonstrated it in the first place !

Naw, I don't fully agree and already wrote a little detail about my POV here in post # 56

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-questionable-extreme&p=10996078#post10996078.

A limited number of "fast tracking" is our need due to the dynamics of our domestic cricket; however, an equally import piece (that you conveniently ignored) is having the right support and coaching help in place to transition a promising youngster from domestic into the international arena. Misbah and Waqar can't do that.

As stated earlier, it's an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT task to begin with when you look into fast tracking. You must have the right candidate to be selected for fast tracking, and topping the domestic charts should NOT be the main criteria. Once the right candidate is selected, it becomes almost useless if he doesn't get the right coaching support.
The promising youngster needs a coach in the form of a trustworthy friend. Someone who he can trust and someone who can provide the right guidance with genuine encouragement and mentorship. Again, Misbah and Waqar are not qualified for that.

And here is the problem. We neither have those set of eyes to identify the needle in the haystack nor do we have the right personnel in place to train a promising youngster at job.

And here is another sidebar argument.
We have seen it a million times that domestic machos become scary cats in the international arena. Should we bring back the likes of Kamran Akmal in the team as he has been grinded enough in the domestic and he is performing too?

So even though we don't have those set of eyes and even though we don't have the right people to train the new fast tracked kids, I still support the process of a limited injecting of new blood in the team through fast tracking.
Yes, we will see failures and yes there will be frustration but if we get one or two good batsmen in 20 failed attempts through the "fast track" route, I will be happy.

And don't get me wrong. It backfires too.
From the little cricket I know and played, I think Asif Ali was the biggest opportunity that we failed to capitalize on. Shame on Misbah, and some blame of Asif Ali for not taking on the opportunity.
But IMO, he already had maxed out our poor domestic level, and absolutely had the potential to replace Razzak's batting but we just slaughtered him.
It's not the numbers and stats but it was the talent of hand-eye coordination and bat speed that we should've taken as a gift. But we didn't.

But honestly, think about it, you wouldn't have had much of choice but to retain Shoaib Malik, Asad Shafiq, the Akmals, the Shehzads, the Khurram Manzoors etc IF you didn't want to give a chance to Haider or Abdullah or Khushdil etc. Is that what you really wanted?

In my view, be that as it may if they are fast tracked.
Since these new kids are onboard, there is no looking back.

I think they have the potential and we should work on tapping it instead of crying about them not having enough domestic experience.
Our domestic standard is a piece of a junk and this is the best it produces at it's general capacity and it's limits.
And I am not totally against domestic performers. I definitely advocate in balancing out the equation where good consistent domestic performers should definitely be looked at but a limited fast tracking route should always be open.

 

[Rayyman]

I am sorry Markhor, but how was Khushdil Shah exposed? Did you even watch the match?

 

[Hawkeye]

When we had seniors = blame Misbah
When we have youngsters = curse Misbah
When we fail = curse Misbah
When we win = it's because of Hafeez/Iftikhar

(Hint hint, it's Misbah who stuck with Iftikhar, Hafeez, despite getting cursed all the time for it.)

Hint hint..

The most number of youngsters in a squad, in the history of our cricket, are picked by Misbah in these squads.

Yet, because they're new and can obviously more prone to failure, Misbah still gets abused for picking youngsters and hence losing.

No patience with our fans.

They want "youngsters".

Then they want them out the next match, and will go back to cursing Misbah for selecting youngsters.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I am sorry Markhor, but how was Khushdil Shah exposed? Did you even watch the match?

They targeted the 5th stump line knowing he’s weak on the offside, they’ve been doing this almost every single ball he’s played across three matches. Go back and watch if you haven’t noticed. He’s found it incredibly difficult to score now that he’s been worked out to have an incredible legside game but bad offside game — he was even caught out today on an offside shot.

 

[Markhor]

I am sorry Markhor, but how was Khushdil Shah exposed? Did you even watch the match?

Why didn't NZ bowl a single ball on the legside to him this series ? He's a legside hack and will amount to nothing in internationals if he doesn't reconfigure his technique.

Naw, I don't fully agree and already wrote a little detail about my POV here in post # 56

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-questionable-extreme&p=10996078#post10996078.

A limited number of "fast tracking" is our need due to the dynamics of our domestic cricket; however, an equally import piece (that you conveniently ignored) is having the right support and coaching help in place to transition a promising youngster from domestic into the international arena. Misbah and Waqar can't do that.

As stated earlier, it's an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT task to begin with when you look into fast tracking. You must have the right candidate to be selected for fast tracking, and topping the domestic charts should NOT be the main criteria. Once the right candidate is selected, it becomes almost useless if he doesn't get the right coaching support.
The promising youngster needs a coach in the form of a trustworthy friend. Someone who he can trust and someone who can provide the right guidance with genuine encouragement and mentorship. Again, Misbah and Waqar are not qualified for that.

And here is the problem. We neither have those set of eyes to identify the needle in the haystack nor do we have the right personnel in place to train a promising youngster at job.

And here is another sidebar argument.
We have seen it a million times that domestic machos become scary cats in the international arena. Should we bring back the likes of Kamran Akmal in the team as he has been grinded enough in the domestic and he is performing too?

So even though we don't have those set of eyes and even though we don't have the right people to train the new fast tracked kids, I still support the process of a limited injecting of new blood in the team through fast tracking.
Yes, we will see failures and yes there will be frustration but if we get one or two good batsmen in 20 failed attempts through the "fast track" route, I will be happy.

And don't get me wrong. It backfires too.
From the little cricket I know and played, I think Asif Ali was the biggest opportunity that we failed to capitalize on. Shame on Misbah, and some blame of Asif Ali for not taking on the opportunity.
But IMO, he already had maxed out our poor domestic level, and absolutely had the potential to replace Razzak's batting but we just slaughtered him.
It's not the numbers and stats but it was the talent of hand-eye coordination and bat speed that we should've taken as a gift. But we didn't.

But honestly, think about it, you wouldn't have had much of choice but to retain Shoaib Malik, Asad Shafiq, the Akmals, the Shehzads, the Khurram Manzoors etc IF you didn't want to give a chance to Haider or Abdullah or Khushdil etc. Is that what you really wanted?

In my view, be that as it may if they are fast tracked.
Since these new kids are onboard, there is no looking back.

I think they have the potential and we should work on tapping it instead of crying about them not having enough domestic experience.
Our domestic standard is a piece of a junk and this is the best it produces at it's general capacity and it's limits.
And I am not totally against domestic performers. I definitely advocate in balancing out the equation where good consistent domestic performers should definitely be looked at but a limited fast tracking route should always be open.

I have criticised Misbah and Waqar's coaching on countless occasions but in case you didn't spot - this thread is about the mentality of the fans and how players are elevated so quickly based on short-term results. These players who people were yelling for like Shadab Khan, Faheem Ashraf, Asif Ali, Mohammad Nawaz and Sahbizada Farhan all had access to a top coach in Mickey Arthur not long ago.

However no coach cannot turn water into wine because none of them learnt the basics and demonstrated consistent displays at domestic level - Shadab barely played FC cricket himself and yet some act surprised when his international output is mediocre.

Now your argument is some domestic chart-toppers have failed like Kamran Akmal. For every Kamran Akmal I can name Mohammad Asif, Babar Azam, Azhar Ali, Misbah-ul-Haq, Yasir Shah, Mohammad Abbas and many more who weren't fast-tracked but progressed through the system properly and made the stepup to Test cricket.

I agree there must be a balance, a space for a couple of prodigies in a squad who are long-term projects. And with the six team system, standards have improved significantly but yes hasn't reached Shield or County standards. However if fast-tracking is the way to go, why don't other nations with weak domestic systems like Sri Lanka or West Indies follow suit ?

Pakistan is the anomaly, the only nation that treats international cricket like a nursery. And our fans are just as guilty as the selectors for getting so hyped up over players on tiny sample sizes.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Why didn't NZ bowl a single ball on the legside to him this series ? He's a legside hack and will amount to nothing in internationals if he doesn't reconfigure his technique.


I have criticised Misbah and Waqar's coaching on countless occasions but in case you didn't spot - this thread is about the mentality of the fans and how players are elevated so quickly based on short-term results. These players who people were yelling for like Shadab Khan, Faheem Ashraf, Asif Ali, Mohammad Nawaz and Sahbizada Farhan all had access to a top coach in Mickey Arthur not long ago.

However no coach cannot turn water into wine because none of them learnt the basics and demonstrated consistent displays at domestic level - Shadab barely played FC cricket himself and yet some act surprised when his international output is mediocre.

Now your argument is some domestic chart-toppers have failed like Kamran Akmal. For every Kamran Akmal I can name Mohammad Asif, Babar Azam, Azhar Ali, Misbah-ul-Haq, Yasir Shah, Mohammad Abbas and many more who weren't fast-tracked but progressed through the system properly and made the stepup to Test cricket.

I agree there must be a balance, a space for a couple of prodigies in a squad who are long-term projects. And with the six team system, standards have improved significantly but yes hasn't reached Shield or County standards. However if fast-tracking is the way to go, why don't other nations with weak domestic systems like Sri Lanka or West Indies follow suit ?

Pakistan is the anomaly, the only nation that treats international cricket like a nursery. And our fans are just as guilty as the selectors for getting so hyped up over players on tiny sample sizes.

Many fans are sentimental and that's a given. And obviously it's because of our upbringing into a super sentimental knee jerk type social atmosphere where patience is an extremely rare commodity. This is how we are as a nation What is so surprising here?

However, there still remains a slight room to counter argument when you say,

For every Kamran Akmal I can name Mohammad Asif, Babar Azam, Azhar Ali, Misbah-ul-Haq, Yasir Shah, Mohammad Abbas

To start off with, lets put aside Abbas and Yasir Shah as we are primarily talking batsmen and hitters.

Now here comes the difference of opinion, Azhar is a borderline case but seriously, you are entitled to tag Misbah as a great product of our domestic chaos. And I know this thread is not about Misbah but I would rather say, for every Kamran Akmal we have had a Javed or Yousuf or Yonus as these were the three batsman (in the last 3 decades) that were produced by our domestic who made it through domestic performance (instead of fast tracking), and they were those who could play long innings with authority.


And also when you stated that

Pakistan is the anomaly, the only nation that treats international cricket like a nursery.

then I would tell you again, it's our need.

Our domestic cricket simply does not churn out world class batsmen on continuous basis.

Just a quick look at the highlights of last night's game between Sydney Thunder and Perth Scrochers.

Here is the link

Watch this kid Oliver Davies start @6:22

He is a debutant and hitting reverse sweep sixes in his first game.

Just look at his confidence, talent and ability to launch a fearless counter attack. It's truly fascinating.

This is the product of a great domestic standard, a ruthless but professional competitive atmosphere, and good coaching support.

Do we have that that environment in our system where we could make our kids face such a strong resistance and become this class of a batter? No!

We have to expose our youngsters in the international against such standard of cricket, and hence, indeed some facets of approach to training, forces us to treat international cricket as a nursery. We don't have it at home so we gotta go out and get it.

 

[Rayyman]

They targeted the 5th stump line knowing he’s weak on the offside, they’ve been doing this almost every single ball he’s played across three matches. Go back and watch if you haven’t noticed. He’s found it incredibly difficult to score now that he’s been worked out to have an incredible legside game but bad offside game — he was even caught out today on an offside shot.

Why didn't NZ bowl a single ball on the legside to him this series ? He's a legside hack and will amount to nothing in internationals if he doesn't reconfigure his technique.

Khushdil looked good yesterday. He was timing the ball and managed the bounce well. Even the shot he got out to, he hit a nice uppercut, but straight to deep backward point.

He is the best young hitter in Pakistan and needs to be persisted with.