German MPs recognise Armenian 'genocide' amid Turkish fury

[Gabbar Singh]

The Turks are seething.

Did German MPs do the right thing?

The German parliament has approved a resolution declaring that the mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during World War One was a "genocide".

Armenians say up to 1.5 million of their people died in the atrocities of 1915. Turkey says the toll was much lower and rejects the term "genocide".

The vote heightened German-Turkish tensions at a time when Turkey's help is needed to stem the flow of migrants.

Turkey has recalled its ambassador and its leader threatened further action.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the recall was a first step and that the government would consider further action it might take in response to the vote.

"We will do whatever is necessary to resolve this issue," he said.

In the latest response:

Turkey's Prime Minister Binali Yildirim blamed a "racist Armenian lobby" for the resolution
Armenia's Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian said it was a "valuable contribution" to the "international recognition and condemnation of the Armenian genocide"
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said: "There is a lot that binds Germany to Turkey and even if we have a difference of opinion on an individual matter, the breadth of our links, our friendship, our strategic ties, is great"

More than 20 nations, including France and Russia, as well as Pope Francis, have recognised the 1915 killings as genocide.

Turkey denies that there was a systematic campaign to slaughter Armenians as an ethnic group during World War One. It also points out that many Turkish civilians died in the turmoil during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Mrs Merkel was not in the Bundestag (lower house) for the vote. Her Christian Democrats (CDU), their coalition partners the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens all supported the resolution, and the vote in favour was overwhelming.

German MPs came under pressure from Turks in the run-up to the vote, receiving threatening and abusive e-mails, German ARD news reports.

The resolution uses the word "genocide" in the headline and text. It also says Germany - at the time an ally of the Ottomans - bears some guilt for doing nothing to stop the killings.

The reactions from Ankara are every bit as strong as feared. Turkey's foreign minister even accused Berlin of trying to deflect from the dark episodes of its own history, a clear reference to Germany's Nazi past.

But for many German politicians this vote was about exactly the opposite: it was about dealing with not just Turkey's difficult 20th century history, but also Germany's.

Many of the speeches in parliament focused on German responsibility in the 1915 killings. At the time, the German empire was a military ally of the Ottomans, and is accused of knowing about the massacres and not doing anything to prevent them. So for many Germans this resolution is about facing up to German historical guilt - something modern Germany is founded upon.

But the big question is what this all means for Europe's attempts to solve the migrant crisis. Diplomatic relations may be strained. But the hope in Berlin is that tensions don't scupper the EU's new refugee deal with Turkey.

Under a deal struck in March, Turkey agreed to take back migrants - including Syrians - arriving on Greek islands, in return for EU aid and a pledge to give Turks visa-free travel to most of Europe.

Germany accepted 1.1 million migrants last year - by far the highest influx in the EU.

German-Turkish relations were also strained this year by the case of comedian Jan Boehmermann, whose obscene poem about Mr Erdogan prompted a criminal complaint from the Turkish leader.

Last month a court in Hamburg ruled that Boehmermann's poem was satire, but banned him from repeating the sexual references in it, deeming them unacceptable.

Germany plans to repeal a clause in the constitution prohibiting insults that target foreign leaders - the clause invoked by Turkey in the complaint.


Hundreds of thousands of Christian Armenians died in 1915 at the hands of the Ottoman Turks, whose empire was disintegrating
Many of the victims were civilians deported to barren desert regions where they died of starvation and thirst. Thousands also died in massacres
Armenia says up to 1.5 million people were killed. Turkey says the number of deaths was much smaller
Most non-Turkish scholars of the events regard them as genocide - as do more than 20 states including France, Germany and Russia, and some international bodies such as the European Parliament
Turkey rejects the term "genocide", maintaining that many of the dead were killed in clashes during World War One, and that many ethnic Turks also suffered in the conflict

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36433114

 

[mani1]

The Turks are seething.

Did German MPs do the right thing?




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36433114

Do they recognise the circassian genocide?

 

[Syed2015]

It is a good step, appreciate it. Turkeys current important role in the refugee crisis shouldnt pose as hindrance for recognition and commemoration of such a horrific event in human history. The German government/the EU made enough compromises towards the turkish government for the sake of mantaining this already brittle refugee deal. Enough with this submission!

 

[Robert]

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law in five posts, Hitler said Germany would get away with the Final Solution because "No-one remembers the Armenians."

 

[sweep_shot]

The US House of Representatives has voted overwhelmingly in favour of recognising the mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during World War One as "genocide".

The issue is highly sensitive and comes at a time of difficult bilateral relations with Turkey.

Presidential hopeful Joe Biden said the vote honoured the memory of victims.

But Turkey's foreign minister said the vote was in revenge for its military offensive in northern Syria.

The House also voted overwhelmingly to call on President Donald Trump to impose sanctions on Turkey and some of its officials over the offensive.

How did the House vote?
The resolution passed by a vote of 405 to 11.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi joined her colleagues "in solemn remembrance of one of the great atrocities of the 20th Century".

Mr Biden tweeted: "By acknowledging this genocide we honour the memory of its victims and vow: never again."

Chairman of the House's Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, tweeted: "The House just voted to recognize the Armenian Genocide - a vote I fought for 19 years to make possible, that tens of thousands of my Armenian American constituents have waited decades to see. We will not be party to genocide denial. We will not be silent. We will never forget.

How has Turkey reacted?
It has strongly condemned the move. Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu called the vote "null and void", linking it to Turkey's military offensive against Kurdish fighters in northern Syria whom it regards as terrorists. Kurdish troops have been allied to the US in fighting the Islamic State (IS) group.

Mr Cavusoglu tweeted: "Those whose projects were frustrated turn to antiquated resolutions. Circles believing that they will take revenge this way are mistaken. This shameful decision of those exploiting history in politics is null and void for our Government and people."

Turkey denies that there was a systematic campaign to slaughter Armenians as an ethnic group during World War One.

What happened?
There is general agreement that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died when the Ottoman Turks deported them en masse from eastern Anatolia to the Syrian desert and elsewhere in 1915-16. They were killed or died from starvation or disease.

The total number of Armenian dead is disputed. Armenians say 1.5 million died. The Republic of Turkey estimates the total to be 300,000. According to the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), the death toll was "more than a million".

The dispute about whether it was genocide centres on the question of premeditation - the degree to which the killings were orchestrated. Many historians, governments and the Armenian people believe that they were; but a number of scholars question this.

Turkish officials accept that atrocities were committed but argue that there was no systematic attempt to destroy the Christian Armenian people. Turkey says many innocent Muslim Turks also died in the turmoil of war.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50229787.

 

[Napa]

Given that Ergodan has taken a very anti-India position, it is time for India to build a Armenian Genocide Museum in Delhi.

 

[AdamM97]

Given that Ergodan has taken a very anti-India position, it is time for India to build a Armenian Genocide Museum in Delhi.

India should instead build memorials dedicated to those killed during the partition before thinking of building museums for the poor Armenians who were killed in 1915.

 

[AdamM97]

The fact that it took the US this long to recognize the genocide tells you a lot about how political stuff like this is. As long as Turkey were serving America and their geo-strategic interests, the Americans were fine about not recognizing the Armenian Genocide.

On a different note, Russia is probably laughing and hoping for Turkey to either withdraw their NATO membership or getting kicked out by the Americans.

 

[hussain.r97]

Right steps taken to recognize the genocide, but extremely sad that it only came about due to politics. The Armenian Genocide was actually cited by Hitler before the Holocaust, and he said something along the lines of "no one will remember the Jews, similar to how no one remembers the Armenians."

This should have been recognized by the world a long time ago, but of course, the Armenians do not have a strong lobby to push for recognition. The Ottomans actually killed 2.5 million Christians, including 1.5 million Armenians, 750,000 Greeks, and 300,000 Assyrians. They massacred entire settlements, put people into forced labour and concentration camps, burnt villages down, drowned people, used doctors to kill people, starved people to death, made people walk into the desert, etc.

It's extremely sad and unfortunate that it's relatively unknown event. Everyone knows and hates the Nazi Party, but barely anyone has heard of The Young Turks. In fact, there's even an American online news channel called "The Young Turks", which is absurd considering how naming anything "The Nazi Party" is bound to draw the ire of the international community.

 

[JaDed]

Right steps taken to recognize the genocide, but extremely sad that it only came about due to politics. The Armenian Genocide was actually cited by Hitler before the Holocaust, and he said something along the lines of "no one will remember the Jews, similar to how no one remembers the Armenians."

This should have been recognized by the world a long time ago, but of course, the Armenians do not have a strong lobby to push for recognition. The Ottomans actually killed 2.5 million Christians, including 1.5 million Armenians, 750,000 Greeks, and 300,000 Assyrians. They massacred entire settlements, put people into forced labour and concentration camps, burnt villages down, drowned people, used doctors to kill people, starved people to death, made people walk into the desert, etc.

It's extremely sad and unfortunate that it's relatively unknown event. Everyone knows and hates the Nazi Party, but barely anyone has heard of The Young Turks. In fact, there's even an American online news channel called "The Young Turks", which is absurd considering how naming anything "The Nazi Party" is bound to draw the ire of the international community.

In all honesty, I didn’t know all that either, I mean granted all empires are cruel and have a history but yeah Genocide are political as expected.

 

[cric_man]

I wonder when will France/Germany et al condemn the Bengal Famine genocide engineered by British or atrocities committed by the Belgians in Congo?

 

[warcry]

the armenians orchestrated an azerbaijani genocide of their own, so really no point shedding tears for them.
I believe its called the Khojaly Massacre.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

the armenians orchestrated an azerbaijani genocide of their own, so really no point shedding tears for them.
I believe its called the Khojaly Massacre.

So you have no sympathy for the ~1.5 million Armenians butchered in the early 1900s because in 1992 several hundred people were massacred by the Armenian military.

What kind of logic is that?

 

[warcry]

So you have no sympathy for the ~1.5 million Armenians butchered in the early 1900s because in 1992 several hundred people were massacred by the Armenian military.

What kind of logic is that?

the early 1900s was world war 1. the armenians were collaborating with the russians, they got deported and sent to other parts of the ottoman empire, and in the process, some armenians died.

Turkey was fighting a war of survival, and had other more important priorities than the well being of what was a rebellious group of people.

There are other examples of such deportations. The Trail of Tears is one such example, the deportation of many ethnic groups such as the crimeans, the circassians, by the Russians, and then by the Soviets.

And since we are talking about genocides and massacres, when will India accept the Jammu Massacre of 1947-48 , which was orchestrated by Hari Singh with the Approval of Nehru, as well as the tens of thousands that have been slaughtered in kashmir since 1989 ? and continues to this very day?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Stupid move by Germany having a large Turkish population. No benefit for the Germans but after WW2 they are now tow the political line showed down their throat by others.

 

[hussain.r97]

the armenians orchestrated an azerbaijani genocide of their own, so really no point shedding tears for them.
I believe its called the Khojaly Massacre.

That event is only called a Genocide by the Azerbaijani government, in bad taste, to upset the Armenian side. In the rest of the world, it's called the Khojaly Massacre, where about 200 Azeri civilians were massacred by Armenian forces during the Nagorno Karabakh War.

Yes, the Armenian forces committed a dispocable and disgusting act, but it's also absolutely absurd to compare the massacre of 200 civilians during wartime to the planned and premeditated genocide of 2.5 million Christians by the Ottoman Empire. It's also absurd to base your sympathies for people based on a single action taken by the military.

 

[Pakistanian]

The Armenian genocide did indeed happen and the Turks should stop denying it however what Germany and other European countries are doing is 'virtue signalling'. They don't care about the Armenians or about any genocide that occurred cause there are numerous genocide that have occured in the past and some are going on right now, the reason why they condemn Turkey is because of their anti-Turkish sentiment that dates back centuries during the Ottoman reign. It's also their way putting Turkey "in place", they could care less about Armenians. Most of these EU member states wouldn't pass a resolution recognizing the Circassian genocide or the Native American genocide cause Russia and the United States are superpowers and Europe depends on them.

 

[Technics 1210]

Isn't it strange that most of society is unaware of other human tragedies in history, yet we are constantly reminded of another genocide, the Holocaust.

Some more weirdness, the term 'genocide' did not exist prior to 1944.

 

[hussain.r97]

Isn't it strange that most of society is unaware of other human tragedies in history, yet we are constantly reminded of another genocide, the Holocaust.

Some more weirdness, the term 'genocide' did not exist prior to 1944.

Unfortunately these days you need a strong political lobby to get the genocide of your people recognized. The Jews have a strong lobby, hence their genocide is recognized all over the world, taught in schools, and has a huge amount of movies and documentaries made about it. The Armenian, Circassian, or any other genocides are almost unknown because the Armenians and Circassians don't have any political power in front of Turkey or Russia.

 

[kk1992]

Strange world, passing resolutions to recognize past genocides while directly or indirectly supporting current genocides.

 

[Saeed]

Turks act like if somebody condemned them to death. Every nation has done something wrong in the past. It should not be hard to accept that what The Young Turks did was wrong and move on.

 

[Robert]

Isn't it strange that most of society is unaware of other human tragedies in history, yet we are constantly reminded of another genocide, the Holocaust.

It all came out in the Nuremburg War Crimes trials and therefore gained international attention. The West has a free press so the information was not suppressed as would an extermination within USSR or Red China.

The term is codified in the UN Genocide Convention of 1948 thus:

Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I would disagree that people are unaware - many could cite the Kymer Rouge or the Rwandan Genocide as more recent examples.

 

[Robert]

Stupid move by Germany having a large Turkish population. No benefit for the Germans but after WW2 they are now tow the political line showed down their throat by others.

Germany is extremely open about the horrors perpetrated by past Germans, in order that the horrors do not return.

They expect the same honesty and self-reflection in others, especially NATO allies who want to join the EU.

 

[Technics 1210]

It all came out in the Nuremburg War Crimes trials and therefore gained international attention. The West has a free press so the information was not suppressed as would an extermination within USSR or Red China.

The term is codified in the UN Genocide Convention of 1948 thus:

Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I would disagree that people are unaware - many could cite the Kymer Rouge or the Rwandan Genocide as more recent examples.

Except people are free to deny other examples of Genocide, case in the OP, without the fear of being sent to prison in certain countries.

 

[Syed1]

Ironic that German of all people are talking about genocide.

 

[dildilpak]

Ironic that German of all people are talking about genocide.

Difference is that Germany recognizes that it was a genocide & has apologised for it repeatedly. Can you say that about any other nation in this world? Genocide has been happening in many regions of the world

 

[warcry]

That event is only called a Genocide by the Azerbaijani government, in bad taste, to upset the Armenian side. In the rest of the world, it's called the Khojaly Massacre, where about 200 Azeri civilians were massacred by Armenian forces during the Nagorno Karabakh War.

Yes, the Armenian forces committed a dispocable and disgusting act, but it's also absolutely absurd to compare the massacre of 200 civilians during wartime to the planned and premeditated genocide of 2.5 million Christians by the Ottoman Empire. It's also absurd to base your sympathies for people based on a single action taken by the military.

planned? premediated? you would have bring evidence that it was premediated.

besides the ottomans were fighting the triple entente (Russia, the British Empire) in world war 1, and was in a fight for its survival. I think they had other priorities rather than ethnic cleansing.

The armenians were being deported from the russo turkish border, which was an active front during world war 1. where they may have been used by the russians to disrupt ottoman activity.

Some armenians may have died during the relocation, whether that was intentional or not, I do not know.

 

[hussain.r97]

planned? premediated? you would have bring evidence that it was premediated.

besides the ottomans were fighting the triple entente (Russia, the British Empire) in world war 1, and was in a fight for its survival. I think they had other priorities rather than ethnic cleansing.

The armenians were being deported from the russo turkish border, which was an active front during world war 1. where they may have been used by the russians to disrupt ottoman activity.

Some armenians may have died during the relocation, whether that was intentional or not, I do not know.

The genocide has eyewitness accounts and photographic evidence. There are also plenty of all transcripts between various nations during the time clearly saying that the Turks are carrying out a systematic ethnic cleansing of Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks. These photos and transcripts are easily found online. There is plenty of evidence that the Ottoman forces were involved in these killings on direct orders of the Three Pashas, and there is even widespread evidence of there being concentration camps, as well as instances of Ottoman forces drowning, burning, and making Armenians walk into the desert.

There are also various quotes from people around that time, or just after that time, that make it clear that the genocide was very real.

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.
-Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
-Adolf Hitler

The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.
-Enver Pasha (one of the rulers of the Empire during the genocide)

Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention. What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.
-Talat Pasha (one of the rulers of the Empire during the genocide)

800,000 Armenian deportees were actually killed...by holding the guilty accountable the government is intent on cleansing the bloody past.
-Cemal Pasha (Minister of Interior of Turkey)

I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they intended to recommence the massacres which had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from him was: 'It is decided. It is the program.'
-Prince Abdul Mecid (Heir to the Ottoman Throne)

Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them.
-Mustafa Arif (Minister of Interior)

When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact. . . . I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915.
-Henry Morgenthau, SR. (US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire)

In its attempt to carry out its purpose to resolve the Armenian question by the destruction of the Armenian race, the Turkish government has refused to be deterred neither by our representations, nor by those of the American Embassy, nor by the delegate of the Pope, nor by the threats of the Allied Powers, nor in deference to the public opinion of the West representing one-half of the world.
-Count Wolff-Metternich (German Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire)

. . . the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it . . . the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense.
-Theodore Roosevelt

 

[warcry]

The genocide has eyewitness accounts and photographic evidence. There are also plenty of all transcripts between various nations during the time clearly saying that the Turks are carrying out a systematic ethnic cleansing of Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks. These photos and transcripts are easily found online. There is plenty of evidence that the Ottoman forces were involved in these killings on direct orders of the Three Pashas, and there is even widespread evidence of there being concentration camps, as well as instances of Ottoman forces drowning, burning, and making Armenians walk into the desert.

There are also various quotes from people around that time, or just after that time, that make it clear that the genocide was very real.

lets take these quotes and assume that there was intent to commit an ethnic cleansing of armenians.

So the question is. Can you hold the Turkish government responsible for the actions made by the Young Turks who have dead for centuries.

It would be like holding Angela Merkal Responsible for the actions of Hitler Holocast.

Adopting this form of denial by the turkish government is not new. They donot want to be held responsible for actions that they specifically didnot commit. And neither do they want to give free lunches to armenia.

In a similar way, The Japanese Government denies the Rape of Nanking. even though it happened. They do not want to be held accountable for actions that they did not commit.

 

[Robert]

Except people are free to deny other examples of Genocide, case in the OP, without the fear of being sent to prison in certain countries.

Why would you want the freedom to deny the truth?

Germany has law to prevent that hideous passage of their history from returning and good for them.

 

[Technics 1210]

Why would you want the freedom to deny the truth?

Germany has law to prevent that hideous passage of their history from returning and good for them.

I am amazed. You champion free speech, but not free thought? Irrelevant whether something is true or not, I should be free to think what I like without the fear of being sent to prison.

As for the law, it didn't work, clearly. In all 14 nations.

Laws do not prevent crime, laws only deter.

Are you sure you are a Liberal?

 

[hussain.r97]

lets take these quotes and assume that there was intent to commit an ethnic cleansing of armenians.

So the question is. Can you hold the Turkish government responsible for the actions made by the Young Turks who have dead for centuries.

It would be like holding Angela Merkal Responsible for the actions of Hitler Holocast.

Adopting this form of denial by the turkish government is not new. They donot want to be held responsible for actions that they specifically didnot commit. And neither do they want to give free lunches to armenia.

In a similar way, The Japanese Government denies the Rape of Nanking. even though it happened. They do not want to be held accountable for actions that they did not commit.

No one is holding the Turkish Government accountable, but the least they can do is recognise that the Ottomans conducted such a genocide, condemn it, and distance themselves from it. If the Germans can do it, why can't the Turks?

 

[warcry]

No one is holding the Turkish Government accountable, but the least they can do is recognise that the Ottomans conducted such a genocide, condemn it, and distance themselves from it. If the Germans can do it, why can't the Turks?

perhaps the reason why the turkish government wont, and the same reason the japanese wont,is beacause if they recognize, the next thing you will the see the armenians demanding reparations.

today the germans still pay reparations over the holocast, even though the current generation is innocent and should not be held accountable.

 

[hussain.r97]

perhaps the reason why the turkish government wont, and the same reason the japanese wont,is beacause if they recognize, the next thing you will the see the armenians demanding reparations.

today the germans still pay reparations over the holocast, even though the current generation is innocent and should not be held accountable.

They aren't obliged to pay reparations, and the Armenian lobby is nowhere near as strong as the Israeli lobby.

However, morally, they should pay reparations. As should Japan, as well as the US (for slavery). The massacre of 1.5 million, and the attempted annihilation of an entire race isn't a joke, and should not be taken lightly.

 

[Robert]

I am amazed. You champion free speech, but not free thought? Irrelevant whether something is true or not, I should be free to think what I like without the fear of being sent to prison.

As for the law, it didn't work, clearly. In all 14 nations.

Laws do not prevent crime, laws only deter.

Are you sure you are a Liberal?

I am a tough liberal. Don’t confuse liberalism with libertarianism. Liberalism does not elevate the right to spread the most pernicious hatred to oppress minorities. Liberalism seeks to set everyone free to behave is a responsible way.

I’m sure I don’t want Nazism to emerge again. We live in dangerous days. If the Germans want to defend liberalism by jailing Holocaust deniers then good on ‘em. They do what they have to in order to protect their society. Holocaust deniers are at best misguided contrarians and at worst the nastiest people you can imagine.

 

[Robert]

No one is holding the Turkish Government accountable, but the least they can do is recognise that the Ottomans conducted such a genocide, condemn it, and distance themselves from it. If the Germans can do it, why can't the Turks?

Exactly.

The British have a bloody history but at least accept that the Potato Famine happened and have expressed regret for the Amritsar Massacre and other such horrors.

So why can’t Turkey and Japan?

 

[Technics 1210]

I am a tough liberal. Don’t confuse liberalism with libertarianism. Liberalism does not elevate the right to spread the most pernicious hatred to oppress minorities. Liberalism seeks to set everyone free to behave is a responsible way.

I’m sure I don’t want Nazism to emerge again. We live in dangerous days. If the Germans want to defend liberalism by jailing Holocaust deniers then good on ‘em. They do what they have to in order to protect their society. Holocaust deniers are at best misguided contrarians and at worst the nastiest people you can imagine.

I do not want Nazism to emerge again either, but sadly no one actually addressed the cause to Nazism, and plus, the laws will not prevent the rise of fascism.

Now had the law been applied to just Germany, I would have understood, but the law is applicable in 14 nations, including Canada. I can see Nazism rise in Canada [tongue firmly in cheek].

However, the point was, I should be free to think and accept what I want as truth/false, in the same way you reject the reality/truth of the 2016 Referendum.

Ultimately we all reject what others consider the truth, we may be called madmen, or delusional etc, but to be sent to prison?

I do not think you are a left. Your economic and health views in line with Labour, your Brexit view is inline with LDs, and your view of British Business Taxation is in line with the Tory party.