Hagia Sophia reopened for Muslim worship

[JaDed]

You need all kind for the survival and sustainment of a religion. The political ones, the hard core orthodox ones, the spiritual ones, the moderate ones. Too much of spiritual weakens the religion, and the moderate should defend the orthodox ones from outside criticism, they should not try to moderate down the religion

Practically you are right, that's how it works another thing needed in modern Liberal times is high fertility rate.

 

[Syed1]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yes, thousands of years ago when India had spaceships, internet, nuclear weapons, and toilets. <a href="https://t.co/tXrgUdRLQn">https://t.co/tXrgUdRLQn</a></p>— Jeremy McLellan (@JeremyMcLellan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeremyMcLellan/status/1281940614880403457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Giannis]

Jews were and are the original inhabitants of Israel and Jerusalem, long before Islam even came into being. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

The hypocrisy of people like you is astonishing. If muslims conquer something, or muslims are in majority, their writ should run. But when muslims lose power or are in minority then also the majority and victors should toe the muslim line. This hypocrisy wont last long. Slowly the people are realising this. Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

Lol you're such an idiot, the ancient jews and the modern jews are different people. The modern jews migrated from Europe and other countries around the world to Palestine because they have some ancient lineage going back 3000 years ago and then displacing the Arab natives who were living there. It doesn't matter if your ancestor from 3000 years ago was from some place, you have no right to "back" there. 3000 years ago was three millenias. Imagine if tomorrow white Americans decide to "go back" to Europe.

 

[Bigboii]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yes, thousands of years ago when India had spaceships, internet, nuclear weapons, and toilets. <a href="https://t.co/tXrgUdRLQn">https://t.co/tXrgUdRLQn</a></p>— Jeremy McLellan (@JeremyMcLellan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeremyMcLellan/status/1281940614880403457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yo what is b* fr tho I mean everything in the godamn world is a temple

 

[Syed1]

Yo what is b* fr tho I mean everything in the godamn world is a temple

Ancient Hindus were using jet packs and teleportation to travel to new worlds and set up temples wherever they set foot.

 

[finalfantasy7]

Where are Muslims converting active churches into mosques? Give evidence.

Christians are considered as ahlul kitab (people of the book) in Islam.

Please show some examples.

to be fair my mosque in Uk, was a church- then back in mid 1980's it became empty - and the council gave us it- now its a mosque, many churches in the UK have turned into mosques

 

[Buffet]

to be fair my mosque in Uk, was a church- then back in mid 1980's it became empty - and the council gave us it- now its a mosque, many churches in the UK have turned into mosques

In Buffalo, New York, two churches were converted into other places of worship. One became an Islamic mosque, the other a Buddhist temple. It's perfect use of place. If place of worship is empty, it should be developed for some other use or used for prayers by different faith.

 

[cricketjoshila]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] Don’t you keep parroting “Our country, Our rules” when someone talks about India? Then why do you care so much about what Turkey and other countries are doing? Follow your Own standard of “their country, their rules.“

I dont have a problem. Problem lies with people like you when Indians decided to construct ram mandir at ram janmabhoomi. Or if Israelis start construction of a temple on the temple mount. As long as that is fine its al right

 

[cricketjoshila]

Right to be at gutter level is not a good thing. It was not a good thing 1000 years ago and it's not a good thing right now. Now what constitutes a gutter level may vary from person to person, but simple test is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Well in this thread.

Converting Hagia Sofia to mosque is ok but someone changing the status of a mosque is not.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You obviously don’t know much about Islam and the history of muslims. Islam is the last link in the chain of divine religion revealed to all the Prophets and messangers, beginning with the first human ever Adam and ending with Muhammad - Peace and blessing be upon them all. All the Prophets were muslims. Muslims history goes back to the first human so don’t even start this discussion.

Do jews or christians consider their prophets(pbut) to be muslims?

If Judaism and Christianity dont agree with the views of islam on their prophets (pbut) then all you say is only the islamic view point and not the view point of others.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lol you're such an idiot, the ancient jews and the modern jews are different people. The modern jews migrated from Europe and other countries around the world to Palestine because they have some ancient lineage going back 3000 years ago and then displacing the Arab natives who were living there. It doesn't matter if your ancestor from 3000 years ago was from some place, you have no right to "back" there. 3000 years ago was three millenias. Imagine if tomorrow white Americans decide to "go back" to Europe.

Jews were forced to leave their home land and they returned. They will stay there.

Thats how power is, it always changes hands.

 

[Bigboii]

Jews were forced to leave their home land and they returned. They will stay there.

Thats how power is, it always changes hands.

Just Google their faces I am sure ginger vlad from Russia wasn't forced to leave anything especially not a place related to middle East

 

[Giannis]

Jews were forced to leave their home land and they returned. They will stay there.

Thats how power is, it always changes hands.

After 3000 years? there are so many ethnicities around the world that were forced to leave their homelands throughout history so I guess we all have the right of return according to you

 

[Zaz]

Jews were forced to leave their home land and they returned. They will stay there.

Thats how power is, it always changes hands.

My ancestors left modern day india too hundreds of years back

I ll come and take your house now thank you very much

See how stupid you sound?

 

[Hitman]

God right now has given Israel to jews. Accept it and move on.

It’s funny some people in today’s age believe Israel will cease to exist

 

[Thomaskutty]

First of all, Netanyahu doesn't have the balls to do that. He knows it can bring in trouble for him.

It would be trouble in a different sense. There will be multiple fatwas put on him and there will be a target on his back for the rest of his life, never-ending threats to his life from the extremist sections of your religion. He will be like poor Saman Rushdie.

This is something Ergodan will have to not worry about. He can do what he wants .. no christian leader or hawk is going to put a bounty on his life. It speaks to the difference btw the two faiths today.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Going by your logic if Netanyahu passes a law through parliament saying slavery is legal then it should also be ok then. No one should complain right? But for most people sovereignty is not enough to do whatever you want. You have to respect modern values or you end up as pariah.

You keep changin the goalposts here. First you say it is about the law, then you say it isn't, then you say it's about modern values lol.. make up your mind.

 

[PetroDollars]

This thread clearly shows the situation that muslims and islamic countries are in, people supporting extremism and radicalisation but oppose it when its against them.

An extremist like Erdogan is supported while destorying other religions and cultures but these same people cant stand what happens to muslims and mosques in Israel or India. what is wrong with some people, you have no right to speak or laught at trump when you support islamic versions of them like Erdogan. He has dropped even below Trumps levels.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It’s funny some people in today’s age believe Israel will cease to exist

They also believe that converting churches or temples to mosques is ok. But the vice versa isnt.

Some of them are criticizing Ataturk for secularising Turkey, while they themselves mostly live in a secular western republic.

How long will such hypocrisy be tolerated?

 

[Thomaskutty]

Oof .. now Ergodan promises to liberate Jerusalem mosques.

This is what happens when you put an unhinged extremist in power. God help Turkey. It was such a beautiful place living in the finest traditions of Kemalism and now this crazy person is going to ruin it

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/t...a-after-turning-hagia-sophia-to-mosque-634700

 

[MenInG]

Oof .. now Ergodan promises to liberate Jerusalem mosques.

This is what happens when you put an unhinged extremist in power. God help Turkey. It was such a beautiful place living in the finest traditions of Kemalism and now this crazy person is going to ruin it



View attachment 102136

Sorry - exactly what did he say wrong?

Turkey is a beautiful place - its returning to its Islamic heritage and clearly that is bothering some.

 

[Slog]

As I said I don’t support this decision but to see The connoisseur and flag bearer of ‘our country our rules’ having an issue with Turkey taking such a decision is hilarious

 

[Slog]

People who say Hagia Sophia was oringinally a hindu temple probably don’t even know about the Byzantine empire

 

[finalfantasy7]

Have the canaanites raised a claim to the place? The jews have.


Remember Kabaa was used by pre islamic arabs to worship their idols. These idols were broken and Kabaa was taken over.


The holiest place of the jews, right now has a mosque standing over it. Dont they have the right to build their temple there? If not why?

the canaanites were taken over by the jews- as you know, discussion on how this occurred as typical scripture that old- many of it missing but also within hebrew txt- as its short verses - which is debatle - as jews say that it was done in a liberal way- such as transferring money as loans/ mainly tax - other argue jews never played a fair game as they cant tax themselves and used it against the canaanites ,

other transcripts do seem like the jews did use violence to over throw the canaanites - im trying to search for the video of 2 graduated oxford debating each other on speakers corner to post it, as the jew is debating that the canaanites converted to judism, but the muslim find hebrew sources which differ and he argues the case under torah- at that time how did the jews actual behave in these contracts signed.

 

[finalfantasy7]

heres a really good debate by al jazeraa:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ABSUaFg3RXg" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[sweep_shot]

It’s funny some people in today’s age believe Israel will cease to exist

You will be surprised how quickly things can change.

 

[sweep_shot]

They also believe that converting churches or temples to mosques is ok. But the vice versa isnt.

Some of them are criticizing Ataturk for secularising Turkey, while they themselves mostly live in a secular western republic.

How long will such hypocrisy be tolerated?

What are you going to do about it? Islam is growing stronger. Does it give you high blood pressure?

You have no issues when mosques were converted to churches but you have issues when opposite happened. It is funny.

 

[PetroDollars]

Sorry - exactly what did he say wrong?

Turkey is a beautiful place - its returning to its Islamic heritage and clearly that is bothering some.

Just like Israel turning Palestine around to its jewish heritage bothers some so does this or how India is turning Kashmir into its hindu heritage bothers some,

All those people getting bothered are the ones who get bothered by the other side doing things to there religion, you guys are just 2 sides of the same coin, pretty much like Erdogan, Trump and Modi, same ideas, same policies but only for there cultures.

 

[PetroDollars]

What are you going to do about it? Islam is growing stronger. Does it give you high blood pressure?

You have no issues when mosques were converted to churches but you have issues when opposite happened. It is funny.

Do you belong to taliban or something, where and how is Islam growing stronger, its in its worse state its ever been, muslim countries are being ripped apart by there own people and if there were any progressive muslim countries like turkey people like erdogan have torn those up too. Where is it growing? more muslims being oppressed then ever before? which world are you speaking off?

 

[El Generico]

They also believe that converting churches or temples to mosques is ok. But the vice versa isnt.

Some of them are criticizing Ataturk for secularising Turkey, while they themselves mostly live in a secular western republic.

How long will such hypocrisy be tolerated?

You keep repeating this, what exactly do you mean by it? Tolerated by who? What exactly do you want to happen to Muslims when they are not “tolerated”?

 

[sweep_shot]

Do you belong to taliban or something, where and how is Islam growing stronger, its in its worse state its ever been, muslim countries are being ripped apart by there own people and if there were any progressive muslim countries like turkey people like erdogan have torn those up too. Where is it growing? more muslims being oppressed then ever before? which world are you speaking off?

Islam has the most practicing followers in the world. More people convert to Islam than any other religion. Christianity is in decline and other religions are not growing also. That's what I meant when I wrote Islam is growing stronger.

I don't support Taliban. Where did I mention anything about Taliban?

 

[PetroDollars]

Islam has the most practicing followers in the world. More people convert to Islam than any other religion. Christianity is in decline and other religions are not growing also. That's what I meant when I wrote Islam is growing stronger.

I don't support Taliban. Where did I mention anything about Taliban?

Your posts quite clearly give that sense.

btw. growing in numbers does not equal being stronger, Jews are small in number but the strongest of all religions.

Islam growing doesnt mean anything when there are 100 odd divisions and most are all fighting each other and to immigrate out of muslim lands to the west is seen as reaching the promise land.

 

[sweep_shot]

Your posts quite clearly give that sense.

btw. growing in numbers does not equal being stronger, Jews are small in number but the strongest of all religions.

Islam growing doesnt mean anything when there are 100 odd divisions and most are all fighting each other and to immigrate out of muslim lands to the west is seen as reaching the promise land.

I know Muslim rulers have been pretty spineless but that doesn't mean ummah is finished. There are almost 2-billion Muslims worldwide. That number is not decreasing.

To be fair, before the end times, Muslims are supposed to go through trials and tribulations. These are all in the prophecies.

 

[King-Misbah]

Oof .. now Ergodan promises to liberate Jerusalem mosques.

This is what happens when you put an unhinged extremist in power. God help Turkey. It was such a beautiful place living in the finest traditions of Kemalism and now this crazy person is going to ruin it



View attachment 102136

I hope you have the same views about Modi Turkey is no way extreme and still a beautiful country. I visit annually.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

God right now has given Israel to jews. Accept it and move on.

God does appear to have given too much to the People of The Book, this is a good observation joshila bhai. What has he given to those nations which don't follow the Abrahamic faiths?

 

[globalcitizen]

What are you going to do about it? Islam is growing stronger. Does it give you high blood pressure?

You have no issues when mosques were converted to churches but you have issues when opposite happened. It is funny.

If you mean Islam is growing in terms of population, you may be right. No one is volunteering to convert to a religion it’s such a minority. Most I know now don’t even believe in Islam or any religion and they have become atheists. Check ex-Muslim groups of North America or Australia or Canada

 

[sweep_shot]

The conflict between Zionists and Muslims is in our end times prophecy. There will be a major final battle.

I know non-Muslims (particularly Hindu/secular Indians) may find it unbelievable and that's understandable.

Muslims are supposed to experience trials and tribulations close to the end times. These are all in the prophecies. Whatever God has willed will happen.

 

[MenInG]

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has rejected international condemnation over the decision to change the status of Istanbul's landmark Hagia Sophia from a museum to a mosque, saying it represented his country's will to use its "sovereign rights".

In the past, he has repeatedly called for the stunning building to be renamed as a mosque and in 2018, he recited a verse from the Quran at Hagia Sophia.

"Those who do not take a step against Islamophobia in their own countries ... attack Turkey's will to use its sovereign rights," Erdogan said at a ceremony he attended via video-conference on Saturday.

The colossal Hagia Sophia was built 1,500 years ago as an Orthodox Christian cathedral and was converted into a mosque after the Ottomans conquered Constantinople, now Istanbul, in 1453. The secular Turkish government decided in 1934 to make it a museum.

Erdogan on Friday formally converted the building back into a mosque and declared it open for Muslim worship, hours after a high court annulled the 1934 decision turning it into a museum. He said Muslim prayers would begin at the UNESCO World Heritage Site on July 24.

The president went ahead with the plan despite appeals from NATO ally the United States and from Russia, with which Ankara has forged close relations in recent years.

Greece swiftly condemned the move as a provocation, France deplored it while the US also expressed disappointment.

Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko on Saturday said Moscow regretted the decision.

"The cathedral is on Turkey's territory, but it is without question everybody's heritage," he told the Interfax news agency.

The World Council of Churches wrote to Erdogan expressing "grief and dismay" over the move and urged him to reverse his decision.

As a World Heritage museum, "Hagia Sophia has been a place of openness, encounter and inspiration for people from all nations," interim secretary-general Ioan Sauca said in the letter released on Saturday.

Sauca said the museum status had been "a powerful expression" of Turkey's commitment to inclusion and secularism.

The influential bishop Hilarion, who heads the Russian Orthodox Church's department for external church relations, also expressed his sorrow.

"It is a blow to global Christianity ... For us [Hagia Sophia] remains a cathedral dedicated to the Saviour," he told state-controlled TV Rossiya24 late on Friday.

But Ozgur Unluhisarcikli, Ankara director of the German Marshall Fund, told AFP the move would win hearts and minds at home as most Turks "would favour such a decision for religious or nationalist sentiments.

"This is a debate president Erdogan cannot lose and the opposition cannot win. As a matter of fact, this issue also has the potential to disunite the opposition parties."

Erdogan's nationalist ally Devlet Bahceli welcomed the decision, saying that reopening Hagia Sophia to Muslim worship "has long been our desire".

On Saturday, police had put up barriers around Hagia Sophia.

"We wanted to come and visit Istanbul and the Hagia Sophia museum but unfortunately we realised that from today it is closed," said Renato Daleo, a tourist from Italy.

Ksennia Bessonova, a Russian living in Istanbul flanked by her 16-month-old daughter and her husband, said they had also wanted to visit. "It was our little dream because since our daughter was born we were not able to come and here we go," she said.

She hoped the authorities would not change anything inside.

"From what our friends and family were telling us it was something special and we wanted to feel the same. At the moment I am not sure what to expect but I feel sad in a way."

On Friday, Erdogan gave assurances that Hagia Sophia would be open to all visitors, including non-Muslims.

"The Hagia Sophia's doors will remain open to visitors from all around the world," his press aide Fahrettin Altun tweeted on Saturday.

"People of all religious denominations are welcome and encouraged to visit it - just as they have been able to visit other mosques, including the Blue Mosque."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...sm-hagia-sophia-decision-200711173640326.html

 

[gani999]

People who say Hagia Sophia was oringinally a hindu temple probably don’t even know about the Byzantine empire

The only person in India making that claim is a certain Capt. Ajit Vadakayil who is a well known bozo that no one takes seriously. His blog is a good cure for depression.

Anyone quoting him or citing his claims in a serious manner needs to have their head examined.

Jeremy McLellan is a comedian, and so he can get away with it.

 

[AdamM97]

Just another proof that the world is moving away from the liberalism en masse.

The blue mosque is literally there. This is a purely political move.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I thought the Turks were perfectly happy with their laid back attitude to religion, but I am guessing the point of this is to show the rest of the Muslim world that Turkey is still looking to take a leadership role in the Islamic world.

 

[Zaz]

I guess the turks have realised that they can run after the west as much as they like with their liberalism but the west will never accept them no matter what Theyve not accepted them into the EU even tho turkey was willinh to jump through hoops

Theyve decided to go back to their roots and look east instead of west and now the west is getting upset The west want their cake and to eat it

One quick question how come the mesquita in cordoba is not a mueseum but still a functioning cathedral?

 

[irfan]

I guess the turks have realised that they can run after the west as much as they like with their liberalism but the west will never accept them no matter what Theyve not accepted them into the EU even tho turkey was willinh to jump through hoops

Theyve decided to go back to their roots and look east instead of west and now the west is getting upset The west want their cake and to eat it

One quick question how come the mesquita in cordoba is not a mueseum but still a functioning cathedral?

erm you expected them (Ferdinand & Isabel)to turn it into a museum in 1230s after the reconquest of Andalusia? Many also claim that originally a church stood there and that it was demolished to build the mosque.

You should concentrate on the now failed campaign in recent years for Muslims to use part of it as a mosque, this was rejected on the basis it's for Catholic worship only.

Apparently, Allama Iqbal was allowed to pray there but not exactly sure.

 

[Zaz]

erm you expected them (Ferdinand & Isabel)to turn it into a museum in 1230s after the reconquest of Andalusia? Many also claim that originally a church stood there and that it was demolished to build the mosque.

You should concentrate on the now failed campaign in recent years for Muslims to use part of it as a mosque, this was rejected on the basis it's for Catholic worship only.

Apparently, Allama Iqbal was allowed to pray there but not exactly sure.

No but if current spain has a right to do with the mesquita as they wish ie to carry on using it as a place for catholic worship then turkey can do the same and use it for islamic purpose

Why the hue and cry here?

 

[OldWarHorse]

The only person in India making that claim is a certain Capt. Ajit Vadakayil who is a well known bozo that no one takes seriously. His blog is a good cure for depression.

Anyone quoting him or citing his claims in a serious manner needs to have their head examined.

Jeremy McLellan is a comedian, and so he can get away with it.

Haha...he blames everything under the sun on the Jews. Crazy Nutjob with all sorts of conspiracy theories.

 

[irfan]

The poll question is misleading, it hasn't been a church since 1453, was a mosque until 1931 and museum since then. I would say it's one of the most awe inspiring buildings in the world' I always visit it and the Sulemaniye Mosque (more architecturally splendid than the Blue Mosque) whenever I go to Istanbul.

There is a great deal of misinformation on Ataturk on this thread, as has been mentioned if it wasn't for him there would not even be a Turkey within its present borders for you to go and enjoy its Islamic heritage.

 

[KB]

Apparently, Allama Iqbal was allowed to pray there but not exactly sure.

Yes, this is true. Inspired by the visit, Iqbal also wrote one of his most well known poems (masjid-e-qurtuba). It is a beautiful poem exhibiting 'ravani', that is flow and rhythm which is delightful to the ears when recited.

 

[AdamM97]

I guess the turks have realised that they can run after the west as much as they like with their liberalism but the west will never accept them no matter what Theyve not accepted them into the EU even tho turkey was willinh to jump through hoops

Theyve decided to go back to their roots and look east instead of west and now the west is getting upset The west want their cake and to eat it

One quick question how come the mesquita in cordoba is not a mueseum but still a functioning cathedral?

The golden age of liberalism is over which is why most non-western nations are moving away from the liberal bloc led by the US. I’d suggest you watch the realist political thinker John Mearsheimer’s lecture on the demise of the liberal hegemony:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ESwIVY2oimI

 

[topspin]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] your thoughts?

 

[Pakpak]

The golden age of liberalism is over which is why most non-western nations are moving away from the liberal bloc led by the US. I’d suggest you watch the realist political thinker John Mearsheimer’s lecture on the demise of the liberal hegemony:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ESwIVY2oimI

????

When was the non-Western bloc ever liberal????

 

[pillionrider]

A long time back I'd read something about Albania converting churches and their adjoining grounds into gyms and parks. Was going to post this impressive bit of information but thought I'd google it first. Looks like I either remember wrong or it was a dated story from a long-forgotten era. Islam is apparently the largest now, followed by Christianity. Wonder if Albanian Muslims wouldn't mind turning existing gyms into mosques

On topic, I'm not sure there is any point going hundreds of years back and fussing over it having been a church. It was a mosque most recently in modern times - so they're reverting to that.

Only - don't support this, yet also criticize the idea of a Ram temple at one of the holiest places for North Indians.

 

[pillionrider]

I have always thought that Indonesia is better role model for muslim countries than Turkey. Indonesia is over 90% muslim and apart from some bad press in East Timor (now independent) has had an excellent record of human rights and respect for its minorities.

I understand Indonesia has become the latest poster child in Hindutva lectures, but please also watch docus or read on Indonesia's terrible past in wiping out atheists and communists.

 

[Firebat]

Pope 'very pained' by decision to turn Istanbul's Hagia Sophia museum into mosque

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis said on Sunday he was hurt by Turkey’s decision to make Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia museum a mosque, the latest religious leader to condemn the move.

“My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of Santa Sophia and I am very pained,” he said during his weekly blessing in St. Peter’s Square.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has said the first prayers would be held in Hagia Sophia on July 24, after declaring the ancient monument was once again a mosque following a court ruling revoking its status as a museum.

The World Council of Churches has called on Erdogan to reverse his decision and Patriarch Bartholomew, the Istanbul-based spiritual leader of the world’s Orthodox Christians, called it disappointing.

Erdogan said the nearly 1,500-year-old Hagia Sophia, which was once a Christian cathedral, would remain open to Muslims, Christians and foreigners.

He added that Turkey had exercised its sovereign right in converting it to a mosque and would interpret criticism of the move as an attack on its independence.

Greece has condemned the move and UNESCO said its World Heritage Committee would review Hagia Sophia’s status and that Turkey’s decision raised questions about the impact on its universal value as a site of importance transcending borders and generations.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hagia-sophia-museum-into-mosque-idUSKCN24D0CG

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

A long time back I'd read something about Albania converting churches and their adjoining grounds into gyms and parks. Was going to post this impressive bit of information but thought I'd google it first. Looks like I either remember wrong or it was a dated story from a long-forgotten era. Islam is apparently the largest now, followed by Christianity. Wonder if Albanian Muslims wouldn't mind turning existing gyms into mosques

On topic, I'm not sure there is any point going hundreds of years back and fussing over it having been a church. It was a mosque most recently in modern times - so they're reverting to that.

Only - don't support this, yet also criticize the idea of a Ram temple at one of the holiest places for North Indians.

Is there any benefit for outsiders to see a Ram temple built on the site of mosques? Can Pakistanis for instance come to India and pray at a Ram temple?

 

[ahmedzee]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yes, thousands of years ago when India had spaceships, internet, nuclear weapons, and toilets. <a href="https://t.co/tXrgUdRLQn">https://t.co/tXrgUdRLQn</a></p>— Jeremy McLellan (@JeremyMcLellan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeremyMcLellan/status/1281940614880403457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This indian has no clue where exactly basilica cistern is and where Hagia Sophia is. It is not under. It’s under and a mile away lol.

 

[ahmedzee]

I guess the turks have realised that they can run after the west as much as they like with their liberalism but the west will never accept them no matter what Theyve not accepted them into the EU even tho turkey was willinh to jump through hoops

Theyve decided to go back to their roots and look east instead of west and now the west is getting upset The west want their cake and to eat it

One quick question how come the mesquita in cordoba is not a mueseum but still a functioning cathedral?

Mesquita in Cordova is a cathedral and not a museum because of massive hypocrisy of the western nations when it comes to mosques being converted to churches. They cry about Hagia Sophia which was a church in 1400s and converted to masjid then and then to museum back again to masjid. They won’t even talk about mosque in Salerno or Córdoba being converted to cathedral ever.

 

[ahmedzee]

They also believe that converting churches or temples to mosques is ok. But the vice versa isnt.

Some of them are criticizing Ataturk for secularising Turkey, while they themselves mostly live in a secular western republic.

How long will such hypocrisy be tolerated?

Talking about hypocrisy, how about conveying mosques to churches bring no uproar (Córdoba, Salerno and numerous examples given already kn this thread) but once Hagia Sophia is converted back from museum to a mosque, there is an uproar? I call that hypocrisy more than anything else.

 

[gani999]

Actually, a good way to go about it would have been through a referendum. Turkey's population should have been asked to decide through a poll whether they want the place retained as a museum or converted into a mosque.

It would have been really interesting to see the results of such a referendum in Turkey - a country which seems equally modern, westernised and secular on one hand, and conservative Islamic on the other. Would have been great to see which section has, or is gaining the upper hand.

 

[Slog]

Actually, a good way to go about it would have been through a referendum. Turkey's population should have been asked to decide through a poll whether they want the place retained as a museum or converted into a mosque.

It would have been really interesting to see the results of such a referendum in Turkey - a country which seems equally modern, westernised and secular on one hand, and conservative Islamic on the other. Would have been great to see which section has, or is gaining the upper hand.

if it took place in istanbul, izmir etc then the museum would win but you have to realize a lot of rural turkey is conservative which is where erdogan gets most of his support from. his party routinely gets routed in istanbul.

 

[Slog]

Mesquita in Cordova is a cathedral and not a museum because of massive hypocrisy of the western nations when it comes to mosques being converted to churches. They cry about Hagia Sophia which was a church in 1400s and converted to masjid then and then to museum back again to masjid. They won’t even talk about mosque in Salerno or Córdoba being converted to cathedral ever.

dont really get the point of this post. One should not stop taking sensible decisions from the heart just because the other party is not doing so.

cordoba was originally a church and then was was initially a half church half mosque post-Umayyad conquest before being bought outright by the Emir.

i do get that now they suppress its islamic past and when i visited it def was sth i did not like. But as i said just because the other party is doing wrong we should not take the same step. it should be independent. secondly (and while bit irrelevant; it is true) the mosque of cordoba certainly did not have the same significance to Islam as Hagia Sophia did to Christianity. And once it was converted to museum (reaching sort of a compromise) then I dont see the point of antagonizing flames.

Finally and most importantly. The problem I have here is that Erdogan is not taking this step out of some special love for Islam. The Blue Mosque is significantly bigger and grander and is literally 20 steps away if you've ever been to the area. This is purely a political play and I do not like the idea of a religious place of worship being used as a tool to advance your political positions.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

Actually, a good way to go about it would have been through a referendum. Turkey's population should have been asked to decide through a poll whether they want the place retained as a museum or converted into a mosque.

It would have been really interesting to see the results of such a referendum in Turkey - a country which seems equally modern, westernised and secular on one hand, and conservative Islamic on the other. Would have been great to see which section has, or is gaining the upper hand.

The result would be to convert it to a Mosque. Probably 75% - 25% distribution

I would vote for it to be converted to a mosque, not because I believe there is any need for more mosques in Turkey (Sultanahmet less than 500m away from Ayasofya is never full and Erdogan just said last year to people who asked about Ayasofya to fill the Sultan Ahmet first) but because this is our land,
Ayasofya became a mosque in 1453 and no outside pressure can dictate to us what to do with our land.

However, the way it was done is purely to divert attention from the real issues facing Turkey, to start a discussion about Ataturk that will get nowhere and is totally unnecessary at this time. Therefore I do not support the way the decision was taken in actual life.

Another fun fact is that Ottomans really valued Non Muslims in the empire and protected them with many laws but they paid higher taxes than muslim population. Some ignorant internet warriors believe that Ottomans were very anti minorities and Ataturk changed that and that was bad (or some stupid idea like that) which is not true one bit.

During the height of Ottoman Empire (15-16th Centuries), non muslim kids were taken from their families (1/5 of boys were taken) to be raised by the state (they were converted to Islam ofcourse) in a system called Devsirme. And the best of these became the grand vezirs / vezirs of the palace.

 

[angrypathan]

I am glad that Turkey has taken this decision.

I have always loved Turkey for its Islamic heritage and I hated what Ataturk did to them by wiping away their language and Islamic roots.

Well done to Erdogan.

Ataturk wiping away the language? I hate to be blunt, but you are grossly misinformed. Ataturk RESTORED the Turkish language, and merely removed loan words from Arabic and Persian that had been introduced over centuries. He also changed the script, from the Persian script to a modified Latin alphabet, which funnily enough made the language a lot easier to learn for locals and their literacy rates skyrocketed after this was done. Turkey has a government department dedicated to introducing new Turkish words for newly encountered discoveries across the world, which is why Turks can converse in their language without pretty much any substitution with English or other languages, unlike almost the entire population of Pakistan.

Coming to the issue at hand, this is clearly a decision made to stir up populist sentiments and entirely symbolic. The Sultanahmet mosque (Blue Mosque) is hardly across the road from the Hagia Sophia. There is no practical purpose for reconverting it to a mosque.

 

[Zaz]

Aya sophia hasnt been a church for 600 years So no idea why the pope and co are chiming in

Until 90 years ago it was a functioning masjid for 500 years

Now you may question why its status is being changed all of a sudden but you cant legitmately ask for a it to be turned into a church not when it hasnt been one for over half a millenia

This isnt the same as ayodya as some not so clever indian posters are comparing it to because ayodya was a masjid and had been once for centuries until the hindutva goons tore it down because in their delusion they think it was a temple

Recent history and people matter not one from millenia ago

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

we have to ask ourselves: Why is Turkey a role model for the muslims who view it to be so?

If the answer is, because Turkey has always been a predominantly muslim country who was able to adapt to the times, which had relative freedom, a loose class system with ties to the west and east, that is slowly eroding.

It seems to me that all the rest of the muslim world is looking up to Turkey but at the same time trying to pull Turkey back to the medieval stuff.

Erdogan is trying to keep his power. That is his game, he is no different to any other politician who exploits religion to solidify his power. (Whoever claps Erdogan should also clap Modi)

Anyway, Ayasofya (as we call it) to me can be a mosque and that is for the Turkish people to decide. However to use it as a political tool to attack Ataturk is where the problem lies to me and millions of other Turkish people.

The rest of the world is not responsible for Turkish internal politics. In fact Turkish liberals should do some self reflection and think that maybe they took things too far when they had political power. Were they fair to more religious Turks? Did there armed forces respect democracy, when they deemed themselves to be the guardians of Secularism?


One example the headscarf ban. Was that fair? How would they Liberal Turks feel if a government mandated every women had to wear a headscarf?

Now the shoe is on the other foot you dont like it. Same thing with Iran you had a secular dictatorship which was replaced by an Islamic dictatorship. Iranian liberals had no problem with the Shah, but now another dictatorship has replaced it which is Islamist, they cry.

There is no comparison with Modi and Erdogan as far as i am concerned. But more importantly people in Pakistan admired Turkey before Erdgoan, during Erdgoan, and i am sure it will continue after Erdgoan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It should be given back to the Christians, absolute disgrace and a dark mark on the history of the Islamic empire this great building which is not any old church but THE church of the Orthodox Chrisitians was turned into a mosque.

it doesnt matter what the extremist Hindus or extremist Christians have done, Muslims are ordered to protect holy sites which belong to the people of the book.

Muslims controlled Jerusalum yet the Church of the Holy Sepulchre still stands to this day.

Ottomons are being overly romantasiced with tv shows and warped history, it was them who were the leaders of the Islamic world and let it fall apart. Never will Turks ever be the heads of any future Islamic Empire.

Btw I love Turkey as a nation.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

The rest of the world is not responsible for Turkish internal politics. In fact Turkish liberals should do some self reflection and think that maybe they took things too far when they had political power. Were they fair to more religious Turks? Did there armed forces respect democracy, when they deemed themselves to be the guardians of Secularism?


One example the headscarf ban. Was that fair? How would they Liberal Turks feel if a government mandated every women had to wear a headscarf?

Now the shoe is on the other foot you dont like it. Same thing with Iran you had a secular dictatorship which was replaced by an Islamic dictatorship. Iranian liberals had no problem with the Shah, but now another dictatorship has replaced it which is Islamist, they cry.

There is no comparison with Modi and Erdogan as far as i am concerned. But more importantly people in Pakistan admired Turkey before Erdgoan, during Erdgoan, and i am sure it will continue after Erdgoan.

Firstly, Turkey was never ruled by liberals. Seculars / Militarists yes, Liberals no. And I dont consider my beliefs to be generalised to be liberal. Certain aspects of it probably, but I am not a liberalist per se.

Your presumptions about my beliefs are wrong, full stop. I was against the head-scarf ban in middle school 1994-95, attending the most prestigious middle/high school in Turkey (robert college) arguing against the teachers who had strict secular views.
So please spare me your patronising tone based on loose presumptions which are untrue.

Pakistan - Turkey friendship was always there as you say. Hence when I got interested in cricket I started
supporting Pakistan very naturally, I always believe this stems from the Turkish Independence War where the muslim Indians were the only nation which supported our cause. It is very wide spread both for secular and non secular people in Turkey.

It is strange but I believe somewhere along when we are growing in Turkey, idea that Pakistani nation is our friend gets rooted in us. It is subtle but my observation is most Turkish people have this feeling.

 

[Slog]

It should be given back to the Christians, absolute disgrace and a dark mark on the history of the Islamic empire this great building which is not any old church but THE church of the Orthodox Chrisitians was turned into a mosque.

it doesnt matter what the extremist Hindus or extremist Christians have done, Muslims are ordered to protect holy sites which belong to the people of the book.

Muslims controlled Jerusalum yet the Church of the Holy Sepulchre still stands to this day.

Ottomons are being overly romantasiced with tv shows and warped history, it was them who were the leaders of the Islamic world and let it fall apart. Never will Turks ever be the heads of any future Islamic Empire.

Btw I love Turkey as a nation.

really glad to see this post from you

the important thing here is the fact that it was not just any old church.

Btw i was shocked to learn that dozen or so of the old mosques in istanbul were churches earlier and honestly i dont even see huge issue with reusing churches no longer in use at the time for other purposes. many of them still function as mosques.

while i wont put all blame on ottomans since they are product of time but atleast today we know bit more about things such as these and this particular building was the center of orthodox christianity and surely that should have been kept in mind when taking this decision

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

The rest of the world is not responsible for Turkish internal politics. In fact Turkish liberals should do some self reflection and think that maybe they took things too far when they had political power. Were they fair to more religious Turks? Did there armed forces respect democracy, when they deemed themselves to be the guardians of Secularism?


One example the headscarf ban. Was that fair? How would they Liberal Turks feel if a government mandated every women had to wear a headscarf?

Now the shoe is on the other foot you dont like it. Same thing with Iran you had a secular dictatorship which was replaced by an Islamic dictatorship. Iranian liberals had no problem with the Shah, but now another dictatorship has replaced it which is Islamist, they cry.

There is no comparison with Modi and Erdogan as far as i am concerned. But more importantly people in Pakistan admired Turkey before Erdgoan, during Erdgoan, and i am sure it will continue after Erdgoan.

Forgot to say.
To be fair I do not follow India politics that closely, so my observation that Erdogan = Modi might be off. However, for me exploitation of 'us vs them' politics are the same whether you are Muslim / Hindu / Jew or whatever. Especially if this becomes the major selling point of a politician, but as I said I could be wrong as I would not know India's affairs that well.

 

[Slog]

Forgot to say.
To be fair I do not follow India politics that closely, so my observation that Erdogan = Modi might be off. However, for me exploitation of 'us vs them' politics are the same whether you are Muslim / Hindu / Jew or whatever. Especially if this becomes the major selling point of a politician, but as I said I could be wrong as I would not know India's affairs that well.

who is the 'them' i nErdogans scenario when Turkey is 98-99% Muslim and i do not think there any Sunni-Shiite tribalism?

Modi has 200mm muslims to demonize so strategy works

 

[JaDed]

who is the 'them' i nErdogans scenario when Turkey is 98-99% Muslim and i do not think there any Sunni-Shiite tribalism?

Modi has 200mm muslims to demonize so strategy works

Ethnic Turks and others? Liberals vs Conservatives..??

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Firstly, Turkey was never ruled by liberals. Seculars / Militarists yes, Liberals no. And I dont consider my beliefs to be generalised to be liberal. Certain aspects of it probably, but I am not a liberalist per se.

Your presumptions about my beliefs are wrong, full stop. I was against the head-scarf ban in middle school 1994-95, attending the most prestigious middle/high school in Turkey (robert college) arguing against the teachers who had strict secular views.
So please spare me your patronising tone based on loose presumptions which are untrue.

Pakistan - Turkey friendship was always there as you say. Hence when I got interested in cricket I started
supporting Pakistan very naturally, I always believe this stems from the Turkish Independence War where the muslim Indians were the only nation which supported our cause. It is very wide spread both for secular and non secular people in Turkey.

It is strange but I believe somewhere along when we are growing in Turkey, idea that Pakistani nation is our friend gets rooted in us. It is subtle but my observation is most Turkish people have this feeling.

I didn't mean to suggest you were a liberal, just that most Turkish liberals, like most Muslim liberals, in general dont respect democracy if they feel that Islamic parties will win.

I am actually a liberal, and come from a family that is very liberal. My family wanted an Attaruk for Pakistan, they thought he had the right ideas to put the "Mullahs" in their place.

And that was the reason that they supported a liberal dictator in Ayub Khan in the 60's. And Pakistan was definitely more liberal than, but what happened was in the 80's Pakistan got another dictator Zia who was an Islamist. So while most Pakistani liberals curse Zia, they fail to see that liberal Ayub was the reason that Islamist Zia took over. And instead of seeing the errors of there ways they supported another Liberal Dictator in Musharraf. And if another liberal dictator comes they will support him as well.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You keep changin the goalposts here. First you say it is about the law, then you say it isn't, then you say it's about modern values lol.. make up your mind.

I will try one last time. I am making a LEGAL case, not a moral one. Take emotions out of it and look at the following points

1 - In 1935 a Turkish President made a mosque into a Museum. The question before the courts is was that legal? The courts said no, so that means it goes back to the status it was before.

2 - It was absolutely wrong for a Turkish Sultan to convert a Church into a Mosque, but as Turkey was formed in 1923 Turkish courts are not responsible for something that happened before the country was formed.

3 - In Modern era every country has or should have laws that protect the status of religious sites. No one wants to open a Pandora's box, so countries should respect the status of religious sites at the time of there forming, and not try to fix mistakes that happened centruies, if not thousands of years ago.


Before we got into a legal debate, i mentioned this to you

"In the ideal situation Hagia Sophia would be a church again, and Cordoba Cathedral would be a mosque again. Second best option would be for Hagia Sophia to stay as a museum, as Turkey gets a lot of tourist money for that. But its Turkey's choice for what they want to do."

So clearly i dont support this being a Mosque again.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

It should be given back to the Christians, absolute disgrace and a dark mark on the history of the Islamic empire this great building which is not any old church but THE church of the Orthodox Chrisitians was turned into a mosque.

it doesnt matter what the extremist Hindus or extremist Christians have done, Muslims are ordered to protect holy sites which belong to the people of the book.

Muslims controlled Jerusalum yet the Church of the Holy Sepulchre still stands to this day.

Ottomons are being overly romantasiced with tv shows and warped history, it was them who were the leaders of the Islamic world and let it fall apart. Never will Turks ever be the heads of any future Islamic Empire.

Btw I love Turkey as a nation.

Should Muslims also not get back Cordoba Mosque? Thats not just any Mosque, its one of the most iconic mosques in Muslim history. maybe now Christians will feel that what they did to that mosque was wrong, and offer it back to the Muslims. That would be the fair thing to do have Hagia Sophia as a Church and Cordoba Cathedral as Mosque?

We cant have one way tolerance.

 

[Slog]

Should Muslims also not get back Cordoba Mosque? Thats not just any Mosque, its one of the most iconic mosques in Muslim history. maybe now Christians will feel that what they did to that mosque was wrong, and offer it back to the Muslims. That would be the fair thing to do have Hagia Sophia as a Church and Cordoba Cathedral as Mosque?

We cant have one way tolerance.

Cordoba mosque was at no point center for any Islamic sect at any point. this is like claiming Faisal Mosque is equivalent to Al-Aqsa and is ridiculous logic.

secondly. it was initially a church to begin with

finally. its not a ***-for-tat trade and 'Christians' and 'Muslims' are not deciding. Even if other party is wrong doesnt mean you have to be wrong if you have choice to not be.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

The result would be to convert it to a Mosque. Probably 75% - 25% distribution

I would vote for it to be converted to a mosque, not because I believe there is any need for more mosques in Turkey (Sultanahmet less than 500m away from Ayasofya is never full and Erdogan just said last year to people who asked about Ayasofya to fill the Sultan Ahmet first) but because this is our land,
Ayasofya became a mosque in 1453 and no outside pressure can dictate to us what to do with our land.

However, the way it was done is purely to divert attention from the real issues facing Turkey, to start a discussion about Ataturk that will get nowhere and is totally unnecessary at this time. Therefore I do not support the way the decision was taken in actual life.

Another fun fact is that Ottomans really valued Non Muslims in the empire and protected them with many laws but they paid higher taxes than muslim population. Some ignorant internet warriors believe that Ottomans were very anti minorities and Ataturk changed that and that was bad (or some stupid idea like that) which is not true one bit.

During the height of Ottoman Empire (15-16th Centuries), non muslim kids were taken from their families (1/5 of boys were taken) to be raised by the state (they were converted to Islam ofcourse) in a system called Devsirme. And the best of these became the grand vezirs / vezirs of the palace.

Would Turks be open to letting Hagia Sophia be a Church again? What if there was a trade with the Cordoba Cathedral being a mosque again, in exchange for Hagia Sophia being a church again?

 

[Technics 1210]

Why are Atheists so bothered with this descision? Wannabe pretenders.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

who is the 'them' i nErdogans scenario when Turkey is 98-99% Muslim and i do not think there any Sunni-Shiite tribalism?

Modi has 200mm muslims to demonize so strategy works

There is always them to demonise if you look for it.

For a nation of 80m+ it is extremey easy.

Firstly:
from the top of my head
Turkey has 10m or so Kurdish population.
About 10-15m Alevite population.

About 48% of people who voted in the last elections did not vote for Erdogans alliance.

Erdogan's enemy timeline ( a loose one at that)

2002- 2010 secular army (friendly with the liberals, friendly with Kurds, ally with Gulen movement)
2010-2013 westernised youth
2016 - 2018 Gulen movement & Kurd political movement HDP
2018 - 2020 Everyone who does not vote for him

All the while he was always in direct conflict with the CHP party which is the main opposition.

He changed stance on many fundamental issues based on his political calculations. Most notables:

His main ally in the beginningü, the Gulenist movement which he very happily gave control of the judiciary and police force and infiltrated the Army had a fallout with him around 2012 and attemtpted the coupe in 2016. Then they became the biggest traitors. (and they are, but he refused to listen to people who were againt Gulen movement until he fell out with them)

His position on the Kurdish question was to have a peaceful solution up until 2015 election where the Kurdish party HDP had a big success but were opposing his desire to become the President. He quickly chaned position became allies with ultra nationalist MHP, declared everyone who opposes him of supporting the PKK (the armed terrorist group of Kurdish movement)

 

[Slog]

Would Turks be open to letting Hagia Sophia be a Church again? What if there was a trade with the Cordoba Cathedral being a mosque again, in exchange for Hagia Sophia being a church again?

where are you getting this 'trading' idea anyway? its not a game lol. and who will trade with who? Turkey will trade with Spain? Why? The Christianity in Spain is not the same as the Orthodox Eastern Christianity which was centered as Hagia Sophia! what would they gain? Also is there central authority for any of the trading parties in your mind? Why would Turkey care for Cordoba which has zero role in its history?

are you 15?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Cordoba mosque was at no point center for any Islamic sect at any point

secondly. it was initially a church to begin with

finally. its not a ***-for-tat trade and 'Christians' and 'Muslims' are not deciding. Even if other party is wrong doesnt mean you have to be wrong if you have choice to not be.

Muslims paid for that site, and created a new mosque there. The cathedral was the old Mosque. Its the exact opposite of Hagia Sophia.

And it might not have been a point center of Muslims, but its one of the most famous mosques in history. If Christians want Hagia Sophia back Muslims want Cordoba back. And neither Muslims or Christians have any legal right to those sites, so a trade could work.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

where are you getting this 'trading' idea anyway? its not a game lol. and who will trade with who? Turkey will trade with Spain? Why? The Christianity in Spain is not the same as the Orthodox Eastern Christianity which was centered as Hagia Sophia!

are you 15?

Spain and Turkey can benefit from increased tourism at those sites. They are already visited by a lot of people, but they will get more tourist if worship is allowed there. So there is an economic benefit for both countries.

Istanbul has no shortages of Mosques, and the close by Blue Mosque cant be filled with worshipers, so they there is no need for Hagia Sophia to be a mosque again. Same way not that many people attend church in Spain so they dont lose anything by it being a mosque again.

But most importantly if Christians dont like Hagia Sophia being a mosque, Muslims dont like Cordoba Mosque being a Church.