Hagia Sophia reopened for Muslim worship

[KingKhanWC]

really glad to see this post from you

the important thing here is the fact that it was not just any old church.

Btw i was shocked to learn that dozen or so of the old mosques in istanbul were churches earlier and honestly i dont even see huge issue with reusing churches no longer in use at the time for other purposes. many of them still function as mosques.

while i wont put all blame on ottomans since they are product of time but atleast today we know bit more about things such as these and this particular building was the center of orthodox christianity and surely that should have been kept in mind when taking this decision

Ive also read very strong arguments the conquest of Constantinople by in 1453 does not fit the prophetic hadith of a great Muslim army liberating the city. According to some scholars , this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled by a new Muslim army which will conquer Istanbul along with Orthodox christians.

Ignoring the above the most compelling argument which many have stated, Istanbul and turkey are not short of mosques so this is a deliberate attempt to further political power and imo also to hurt the sentiments of the Russian orthodox church which heavily backs Putin. Russia and Turkey are on a path of conflict regardless of Russia selling them arms. In fact it was pretty stupid by Erdogan to buy the S400.

 

[Buffet]

where are you getting this 'trading' idea anyway? its not a game lol. and who will trade with who? Turkey will trade with Spain? Why? The Christianity in Spain is not the same as the Orthodox Eastern Christianity which was centered as Hagia Sophia! what would they gain? Also is there central authority for any of the trading parties in your mind? Why would Turkey care for Cordoba which has zero role in its history?

are you 15?

It's all about Muslims vs Christians with monolythic central authority all around the world ...

 

[Slog]

Spain and Turkey can benefit from increased tourism at those sites. They are already visited by a lot of people, but they will get more tourist if worship is allowed there. So there is an economic benefit for both countries.

Istanbul has no shortages of Mosques, and the close by Blue Mosque cant be filled with worshipers, so they there is no need for Hagia Sophia to be a mosque again. Same way not that many people attend church in Spain so they dont lose anything by it being a mosque again.

But most importantly if Christians dont like Hagia Sophia being a mosque, Muslims dont like Cordoba Mosque being a Church.

Who is negotiation for these ‘Muslims’ and ‘Christians.’ You act as if all on same page and bodies which has central authority over each of these communities

Besides what about Córdoba mosque being an church before. And also conveniently ignored that significance of two sites to their respective followers is not comparable

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Who is negotiation for these ‘Muslims’ and ‘Christians.’ You act as if all on same page and bodies which has central authority over each of these communities

Besides what about Córdoba mosque being an church before. And also conveniently ignored that significance of two sites to their respective followers is not comparable

The Christians and Europeans who are upset about Hagia Sophia should think that maybe Muslims could also have been upset about the Cordoba mosque. So instead of crying they should tell Spain to make Turkey that offer. Thats a fair solution. Instead of expecting one way tolerance.


Cordoba Mosque was the site of a church, which was then purchased by a Muslim King, who destroyed the church and built a mosque at that site. It was a completely new mosque. Christians did not construct it.

 

[Slog]

The Christians and Europeans who are upset about Hagia Sophia should think that maybe Muslims could also have been upset about the Cordoba mosque. So instead of crying they should tell Spain to make Turkey that offer. Thats a fair solution. Instead of expecting one way tolerance.

why would Turkey care for that offer? It has no relation to the Cordoba Mosque. Even the Otoomans had no love lost for the Moors of Spain. So why would they care at all for Cordoba?

Any would Spain care to make such an offer? The Hagia Sophia was centre for the Eastern Orthodox Christianity which the Spanish do not follow and in fact have no love lost for. They would have zero interest in that trade too.

So neither the Turks nor the Spanish have any interest to make such a trade and neither does it make snese for them but [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] on Pakpassion thinks this is a possibility. Thank God your not in international politics because God knows what kind of trades and deals you would propose next?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

why would Turkey care for that offer? It has no relation to the Cordoba Mosque. Even the Otoomans had no love lost for the Moors of Spain. So why would they care at all for Cordoba?

Any would Spain care to make such an offer? The Hagia Sophia was centre for the Eastern Orthodox Christianity which the Spanish do not follow and in fact have no love lost for. They would have zero interest in that trade too.

So neither the Turks nor the Spanish have any interest to make such a trade and neither does it make snese for them but [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] on Pakpassion thinks this is a possibility. Thank God your not in international politics because God knows what kind of trades and deals you would propose next?

I didn't say it was possible. But if Europeans/Christians are upset, they need to stop being hypocrites. Pope Francis is "deeply saddened" by this event, well he should first look to Spain and how they destroyed thousands of mosques. And made the most famous one into a church. For those Europeans and Christians who want Hagia Sophia to be a Church again, they should also support making Cordoba Cathedral a Mosque again. This one way tolerance is not going to fly anymore.

As for Turkey it would raise their status in the Muslim world. They will never be accepted as part of European Union. So might as well be top dog in the Middle East. Ottoman empire is dead, who cares if Ottoman Empire did not like Moors.

For Spain i mentioned they could make more tourist money. People in Spain dont follow Christianity anymore for the most part. So not a huge loss for them.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] - what would be your reactions if Christians asked to restore the Great Mosque of Damascus back to being a cathedral? It was a cathedral dedicated to John the Baptist so it clearly is very important. Also when Hazrat Khalid bin Walid conquered Damascus he decided it should remain a cathedral with only a small room for Muslims. So the 4 rightly guided caliphs were not in favor of converting it into a mosque. Only a later Umayyad ruler converted it fully.

 

[Zaz]

What aya sophia was 700 years back has no relevance today Its been a masjid for the last 500 years So the pope and co need to pipe down Its for the turkish people and courts to decide how it should be used

And there should be no issue if it goes back to being a masjid as it was until recently

 

[Slog]

I didn't say it was possible. But if Europeans/Christians are upset, they need to stop being hypocrites. Pope Francis is "deeply saddened" by this event, well he should first look to Spain and how they destroyed thousands of mosques. And made the most famous one into a church. For those Europeans and Christians who want Hagia Sophia to be a Church again, they should also support making Cordoba Cathedral a Mosque again. This one way tolerance is not going to fly anymore.
.

again you dont understand the basic idea. Cordoba mosque is not centre of any Islamic thought or sect. Hagia Sophia was. Besides most people arent asking to convert to church anyway. Most are askign for status quo to remain.

Finally theres dozens of mosques in Istanbul which were formerly churches. Are you fine with converting those too?

Also you are no one to judge whether Spanish people follow christianity anymore or not. As long as they identify as christian thats what matters. Dont play God

 

[Slog]

What aya sophia was 700 years back has no relevance today Its been a masjid for the last 500 years So the pope and co need to pipe down Its for the turkish people and courts to decide how it should be used

And there should be no issue if it goes back to being a masjid as it was until recently

its not being converted to mosque for Islam. its being converted for political gain.

The much bigger and grander Blue Mosque which is 20 steps away barely fills quarter of its space for daily prayer.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

[MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] - what would be your reactions if Christians asked to restore the Great Mosque of Damascus back to being a cathedral? It was a cathedral dedicated to John the Baptist so it clearly is very important. Also when Hazrat Khalid bin Walid conquered Damascus he decided it should remain a cathedral with only a small room for Muslims. So the 4 rightly guided caliphs were not in favor of converting it into a mosque. Only a later Umayyad ruler converted it fully.

First of all i am no Mullah. I have only did one namaz this year, on Eid.

Now as far as the Great Mosque of Damascus, Muslims paid the Christians for that site. And after that they constructed a new mosque there.

And before it was a Church, it used to be a Temple. Which Christians did not pay for, as far as i can tell.

 

[Slog]

First of all i am no Mullah. I have only did one namaz this year, on Eid.

Now as far as the Great Mosque of Damascus, Muslims paid the Christians for that site. And after that they constructed a new mosque there.

And before it was a Church, it used to be a Temple. Which Christians did not pay for, as far as i can tell.

Cordoba was paid for. The Damascus mosque was not paid for. What you read in your little google search was the payment to build the mosque.

Besides that is irrelevant. When a conquering force annexes a city it will get what it wants. Its usually a simple 'accept this price and sell OR we will take it from you anyway' type of deal. Its done out of duress so even if a nominal payment was made for Damascus cathedral it does not matter much.

Yes you may not say Namaz regularly but you are exactly the type of Mullah who hurts the Muslim cause and image. Most Al-Qaeda terrorists do not pray regularly either but see themselves of flag-bearers of Islam.

Anyways you are free to believe what you want and lets just agree to disagree. You are clearly falling into Erdogan's trap who's main motivation is not some love for Islam but political gain. Too bad it wont help him electorally but I guess will play well the uneducated rural folk.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

What aya sophia was 700 years back has no relevance today Its been a masjid for the last 500 years So the pope and co need to pipe down Its for the turkish people and courts to decide how it should be used

And there should be no issue if it goes back to being a masjid as it was until recently

What if An Western Government/private authority buys an historic old Masjid and converts it into Church? Will you be ok with it? Just wanted to know

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Cordoba was paid for. The Damascus mosque was not paid for. What you read in your little google search was the payment to build the mosque.

Besides that is irrelevant. When a conquering force annexes a city it will get what it wants. Its usually a simple 'accept this price and sell OR we will take it from you anyway' type of deal. Its done out of duress so even if a nominal payment was made for Damascus cathedral it does not matter much.

Yes you may not say Namaz regularly but you are exactly the type of Mullah who hurts the Muslim cause and image. Most Al-Qaeda terrorists do not pray regularly either but see themselves of flag-bearers of Islam.

Anyways you are free to believe what you want and lets just agree to disagree. You are clearly falling into Erdogan's trap who's main motivation is not some love for Islam but political gain. Too bad it wont help him electorally but I guess will play well the uneducated rural folk.

In this very thread i have mentioned multiple items how it was wrong for Muslims to take the church from Christians. I even voted in the poll in this thread for it to remain a church. What I and a lot of people dont like is the hypocrisy.

Christians stole a temple from pagans in Damascus and then Muslims stole it from them, so how can they complain? At least Muslims gave them something for it. Yet you vilify the Muslims, who were pretty tolerant for there era. Christians reduced the pagans in Syria to zero. Did every Pagan accept Jesus as his lord and savior????? Not even one wanted to remain a pagan?????

There are still Christians there. So its clear who was more tolerant. An intolerant group cant lecture a group who was more tolerant than them.

 

[Slog]

In this very thread i have mentioned multiple items how it was wrong for Muslims to take the church from Christians. I even voted in the poll in this thread for it to remain a church. What I and a lot of people dont like is the hypocrisy.

Christians stole a temple from pagans in Damascus and then Muslims stole it from them, so how can they complain? At least Muslims gave them something for it. Yet you vilify the Muslims, who were pretty tolerant for there era. Christians reduced the pagans in Syria to zero. Did every Pagan accept Jesus as his lord and savior????? Not even one wanted to remain a pagan?????

There are still Christians there. So its clear who was more tolerant. An intolerant group cant lecture a group who was more tolerant than them.

i have been saying throughout the thread that if one side does wrong doesnt mean the other should do same. At no point have I praised Christians lol but obv your victim complex makes you think Im villifying Muslims and praising Christians. Tolerance is not a competition.

also you cant say to Eastern Orthodox christians that you should pay for the sins of Syrian Catholic Christians from over a millenium ago or Spanish reconquistadors from half a century ago. As i have been trying to say throughout the thread (and youve been failing to understand) - these are not monolith entities and nor do they have central authorities. Your comparisons are ridiculous

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] - what is your thought on Babri Mosque / Ram Mandir? Since indian supreme court allowed to build a temple there do you agree with it?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Cordoba was paid for. The Damascus mosque was not paid for. What you read in your little google search was the payment to build the mosque.

Besides that is irrelevant. When a conquering force annexes a city it will get what it wants. Its usually a simple 'accept this price and sell OR we will take it from you anyway' type of deal. Its done out of duress so even if a nominal payment was made for Damascus cathedral it does not matter much.

Yes you may not say Namaz regularly but you are exactly the type of Mullah who hurts the Muslim cause and image. Most Al-Qaeda terrorists do not pray regularly either but see themselves of flag-bearers of Islam.

Anyways you are free to believe what you want and lets just agree to disagree. You are clearly falling into Erdogan's trap who's main motivation is not some love for Islam but political gain. Too bad it wont help him electorally but I guess will play well the uneducated rural folk.

I am probably among the most liberal members on this site. People who hurt the image of Muslims are the ones who expect one way tolerance, like the following:

1 - Support restriction on Ahmadis from identifying themselves as Muslim.

2 - Are against rights for LGBT people. Or support denying Muslims who are LGBT from attending mosques.

3 - Have no problem if Muslim men marry women of other religions, but are against it if Muslim women do the same. In my family Muslim women have married non Muslim men and we have no problem with that. Nor did those men do sham marriages where they converted to Islam.

4 - Call people who believe in other religions "Kaafir".

5 - Are against there children leaving Islam.

6 - Want a restriction on what clothes a Muslim women could wear. A Muslim women should have the right to wear a burkha or a bikini.

7 - Support restrictions on alcolhol

I will leave it at 7 , though i could probably go into hundreds.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

[MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] - what is your thought on Babri Mosque / Ram Mandir? Since indian supreme court allowed to build a temple there do you agree with it?

My thoughts are the same as the Shaeed Ganj Mosque in Lahore, which was destroyed by the Sikhs and converted into a Gurdwara. Both British and Pakistani courts refused to give that land back to Muslims as too long in time had passed. A Gurdwara still exists there today. I am fine with that.

I think a country should accept the status quo of religious sites that existed at the time of its founding. Which for Pakistan is August 14, 1947.

India was formed on August 15, 1947 at which time a mosque existed there. That mosque was closed by Indian authorities in 1949 once some Hindus placed idols there, which they stated was done by a miracle. They then demolished the site in 90's, and then they gave it to Hindus. So i feel India should have accepted the status of the mosque as it existed at the time India existed, instead of legislating on alleged crimes centuries ago.

 

[Saeed]

He did the right thing, especially since its making Eastern Europeans angry who have destroyed ton of beautiful Islamic architecture. Inshallah Babri Masjid will be restored too to its glory.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What aya sophia was 700 years back has no relevance today Its been a masjid for the last 500 years So the pope and co need to pipe down Its for the turkish people and courts to decide how it should be used

And there should be no issue if it goes back to being a masjid as it was until recently

There is no timeline of history where Islamic principles can be ignored or changed.

When Umar liberated Jerusalum, he was offered to pray in the Holy Sepulcher he refused stating he feared if he prays here today, Muslims will turn into a mosque later and prayed outside at a distance.

Erodgan keeps claiming he an upholder of Islamic values yet doesn't know this? Turkey is still part of NATO and is secular in so many ways, he needs to accept this.

 

[Zaz]

its not being converted to mosque for Islam. its being converted for political gain.

The much bigger and grander Blue Mosque which is 20 steps away barely fills quarter of its space for daily prayer.

Political purpose or not the point is there should be no issue when the place has been used for the past 500 years as a masjid

 

[Zaz]

[MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] - what is your thought on Babri Mosque / Ram Mandir? Since indian supreme court allowed to build a temple there do you agree with it?

You cant legislate for crimes committed centuries back If you start doing that than white americans need to go back to europe


Babri masjid was a masjid for hundreds of years until recently its got no basis to be turned into a mandir after several centuries

The two cases are vastly different they bear no comparison

 

[Slog]

Political purpose or not the point is there should be no issue when the place has been used for the past 500 years as a masjid

but not for past 90 years. thats almost a century
who decides the cut off?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Talking about hypocrisy, how about conveying mosques to churches bring no uproar (Córdoba, Salerno and numerous examples given already kn this thread) but once Hagia Sophia is converted back from museum to a mosque, there is an uproar? I call that hypocrisy more than anything else.

Cordoba church was originally the site of a visgothic cathedral.

Muslims converted Hagia Sofia to a mosque simply because they have the brute strength of majority. They should not start whining when others do the same.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What aya sophia was 700 years back has no relevance today Its been a masjid for the last 500 years So the pope and co need to pipe down Its for the turkish people and courts to decide how it should be used

And there should be no issue if it goes back to being a masjid as it was until recently

Correct!!!

I too believe courts and people should decide such cases in every country.

 

[sweep_shot]

There is no timeline of history where Islamic principles can be ignored or changed.

When Umar liberated Jerusalum, he was offered to pray in the Holy Sepulcher he refused stating he feared if he prays here today, Muslims will turn into a mosque later and prayed outside at a distance.

Erodgan keeps claiming he an upholder of Islamic values yet doesn't know this? Turkey is still part of NATO and is secular in so many ways, he needs to accept this.

The thing is, this building was not a church for almost 500 years. This was a mosque. Ataturk turned it into a museum and then Erdogan decided to reverse it.

When modern Turkey was formed, this was a mosque.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Cordoba church was originally the site of a visgothic cathedral.

Muslims converted Hagia Sofia to a mosque simply because they have the brute strength of majority. They should not start whining when others do the same.

It was first a Roman temple, which the Visigoths seized and built a Church there. Muslims paid the Christians for that site, and demolished the church and built a mosque there, which was converted into a cathedral.

You can make a case that the Christians only accepted payment under duress, but at least the Muslims paid for the site, unlike the Christians who seized a temple and paid nothing.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

I am probably among the most liberal members on this site. People who hurt the image of Muslims are the ones who expect one way tolerance, like the following:

1 - Support restriction on Ahmadis from identifying themselves as Muslim.

2 - Are against rights for LGBT people. Or support denying Muslims who are LGBT from attending mosques.

3 - Have no problem if Muslim men marry women of other religions, but are against it if Muslim women do the same. In my family Muslim women have married non Muslim men and we have no problem with that. Nor did those men do sham marriages where they converted to Islam.

4 - Call people who believe in other religions "Kaafir".

5 - Are against there children leaving Islam.

6 - Want a restriction on what clothes a Muslim women could wear. A Muslim women should have the right to wear a burkha or a bikini.

7 - Support restrictions on alcolhol

I will leave it at 7 , though i could probably go into hundreds.

You realise what you're ant is diametrically opposed to Islam?.. I don't what kind ofIslam you follow or region but women marketing non Muslim and men marrying other than able Kitab is prohibited...

 

[KingKhanWC]

The thing is, this building was not a church for almost 500 years. This was a mosque. Ataturk turned it into a museum and then Erdogan decided to reverse it.

When modern Turkey was formed, this was a mosque.

Modern day Turkey is a secular state, nothing close to being an Islamic nation but a nation which has mostlly Muslims. Have you been to Turkey? They display Islamic gifts next to adult toys in some resort shops.

As for 500 years, I've stated earlier, time or history cannot change the Islamic Principle of not taking over churches.

Do you agree this great church should never have become a mosque? If Yes, then simply return to the Orthodox Christians, who STILL value this and believe it's a church.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Cordoba church was originally the site of a visgothic cathedral.

Muslims converted Hagia Sofia to a mosque simply because they have the brute strength of majority. They should not start whining when others do the same.

Muslims took over much of the civilsed world ruled your land for hundreds of years and built 1000's of mosques, nobody is whining apart from the RSS chaps.

Get over history, it wont change but you are looking at this to say us Hindus will get our temples back...even those we made up in our heads.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Muslims took over much of the civilsed world ruled your land for hundreds of years and built 1000's of mosques, nobody is whining apart from the RSS chaps.

Get over history, it wont change but you are looking at this to say us Hindus will get our temples back...even those we made up in our heads.

Well that's what want, and after Babri masjid, whose to say they wont. The next ones they want are a masjid in Mathura and Benares. For these two mandirs, the land was granted by the Mughals, however once they rebelled they took the land back and destroyed the mandirs and built mosques over them. You can say its wrong by modern standards what they did, but there are consequences against rebelling against the King.

 

[sweep_shot]

Islam getting stronger? Or muslimophobia getting stronger? Do i even need to tell you how is the society and govts reacting?

Which governments are you referring to? Western countries aren't discriminating against Muslims. Are you referring to eastern Europe? Eastern Europe is irrelevant and is like third world.

 

[sweep_shot]

Modern day Turkey is a secular state, nothing close to being an Islamic nation but a nation which has mostlly Muslims. Have you been to Turkey? They display Islamic gifts next to adult toys in some resort shops.

As for 500 years, I've stated earlier, time or history cannot change the Islamic Principle of not taking over churches.

Do you agree this great church should never have become a mosque? If Yes, then simply return to the Orthodox Christians, who STILL value this and believe it's a church.

I mentioned on this thread that I don't support converting active churches to mosques. I only support converting inactive buildings.

What is your opinion on Cordoba cathedral? They changed it from a mosque to a cathedral.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I mentioned on this thread that I don't support converting active churches to mosques. I only support converting inactive buildings.

What is your opinion on Cordoba cathedral? They changed it from a mosque to a cathedral.

Sure but its only inactive because its no longer a church. I dont see the harm in handing it back to them, it will be good for tourism and not needed by Muslims.

Ive been to much of old Islamic Spain, you should visit if you get the chance.

Those who converted the mosque to a cathedral were extremists claiming to be Christians. Its interesting when you visit many of the old forts, palaces they were decorated again by Muslims who were forced to convert or they would be killed. But they were still Muslims in their heart , so within the designs they made hidden Islamic symbols which were only understood.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well that's what want, and after Babri masjid, whose to say they wont. The next ones they want are a masjid in Mathura and Benares. For these two mandirs, the land was granted by the Mughals, however once they rebelled they took the land back and destroyed the mandirs and built mosques over them. You can say its wrong by modern standards what they did, but there are consequences against rebelling against the King.

Tbf much of the Indian history is hidden or flawed. India is a huge land, there was no need to build mosques on top of temples. There was no temple under Babri, this is just a Hindutva lie backed by their corrupt officials.

If they want to continue, perhaps they should start by knocking down the Taj Mahal. It's not a mosque but its THE building which represents India outside of India. Built by a Muslim so must make the extremists burn.

 

[Zaz]

Correct!!!

I too believe courts and people should decide such cases in every country.

Yes but not kangaroo courts like in the ayodya case

There is no legality in tearing down a 500yr masjid and the courts ruling for a temple to be built where it stood Absolute none

Shows how secular india is lol

 

[sweep_shot]

Sure but its only inactive because its no longer a church. I dont see the harm in handing it back to them, it will be good for tourism and not needed by Muslims.

Ive been to much of old Islamic Spain, you should visit if you get the chance.

Those who converted the mosque to a cathedral were extremists claiming to be Christians. Its interesting when you visit many of the old forts, palaces they were decorated again by Muslims who were forced to convert or they would be killed. But they were still Muslims in their heart , so within the designs they made hidden Islamic symbols which were only understood.

Nice.

Would love to visit those beautiful Moorish architectures in Spain.

Do you think they should change it back to mosque (since it was mosque before)?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nice.

Would love to visit those beautiful Moorish architectures in Spain.

Do you think they should change it back to mosque (since it was mosque before)?

They wont, if you go there and even raise your hands in prayer, they will stop you. I didnt do it but saw others.

Granada is beautiful too esp the Alhambra Palace, those Muslim rulers lived a life of elegance. They have built a church within the grounds of this palace. I remember I had a debate with one of the guides and he finally agreed the Muslims didnt invade Spain, therefore it wasnt a conquest, which means it wasn't a reconquest by defeating the Muslims.

Great lecture if you're interested in this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBcySL09c8A

 

[IAJ]

He did the right thing, especially since its making Eastern Europeans angry who have destroyed ton of beautiful Islamic architecture. Inshallah Babri Masjid will be restored too to its glory.

Today I heard there were hundreds of mosques in Europe which has been converted into churches, and even destroyed as you said? Don’t know why everyone is crying here.

Aya Sofia has been a mosque for nearly 500 years and you just can’t ignore those centuries as if nothing happend. Turkey haven’t done anything wrong here at all.

Anf it’s refreshing to see a muslim country doing what it thinks is right instead of listning to outsiders. Well done, and congratulations to all who welcomed this move.

And ameen to your dua for Babri Masjid brother.

 

[Syed1]

Sultan Mehmet bought the church and made it a mosque.


If I buy a property and add another floor to it, will the previous owner come back and say I sold you one storey house you can't convert it to two storey house?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When Sultan Mehmet conquered Constantinople at the age of 21 and ended the Byzantine Empire in 1453, he paid for the property of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HagiaSophia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HagiaSophia</a> from his personal wealth before converting it into a mosque. The details of the renumeration are still saved in Turkish museums. <a href="https://t.co/pnFZf5SqrQ">pic.twitter.com/pnFZf5SqrQ</a></p>— Fidato (@tequieremos) <a href="https://twitter.com/tequieremos/status/1281864855251755010?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[PetroDollars]

Sultan Mehmet bought the church and made it a mosque.


If I buy a property and add another floor to it, will the previous owner come back and say I sold you one storey house you can't convert it to two storey house?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When Sultan Mehmet conquered Constantinople at the age of 21 and ended the Byzantine Empire in 1453, he paid for the property of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HagiaSophia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HagiaSophia</a> from his personal wealth before converting it into a mosque. The details of the renumeration are still saved in Turkish museums. <a href="https://t.co/pnFZf5SqrQ">pic.twitter.com/pnFZf5SqrQ</a></p>— Fidato (@tequieremos) <a href="https://twitter.com/tequieremos/status/1281864855251755010?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If nawaz sharif sold Faisal Mosque or Badshaah mosque to modi, who then converted it to a temple, would the muslims accept it?

 

[PetroDollars]

Today I heard there were hundreds of mosques in Europe which has been converted into churches, and even destroyed as you said? Don’t know why everyone is crying here.

Aya Sofia has been a mosque for nearly 500 years and you just can’t ignore those centuries as if nothing happend. Turkey haven’t done anything wrong here at all.

Anf it’s refreshing to see a muslim country doing what it thinks is right instead of listning to outsiders. Well done, and congratulations to all who welcomed this move.

And ameen to your dua for Babri Masjid brother.

Many of them were probably from medievil times, which the europeans have distanced themselves from.

But the point made here and elsewhere is that, they also allow you to leave your poverty countries and come to there civilised countries, get free rights and open new mosques while Muslims are busying destroying minorities and nonmuslim places of worship.

Theres a major constrast there.

..and most muslims complaing are either complaing about a bigot leader like Erdogan who himself complains about israels treatment of muslims yet doe the same to every non-muslim, or they are complaining at the sad state of affairs happening in turkey, which was once a progressive muslim country which other muslim countries looked up too as models to follow and today it pales in comparison to the country erdogan took hold off, with inflation sky high, gdp stagnant and we laught at the pak rupee yet the turkish lira does worse, having lost 80% of the value since the bigot came to power, he has taken turkey and thrown it to the dogs.

Yet deluided muslims hold him as a great leader because he beats the drums of war and thumps his chest, proving to the world that islam and its followers are the radicals the west shows them to be.

That is the sad state of affairs that people are complaing about.

 

[Slog]

Sultan Mehmet bought the church and made it a mosque.


If I buy a property and add another floor to it, will the previous owner come back and say I sold you one storey house you can't convert it to two storey house?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When Sultan Mehmet conquered Constantinople at the age of 21 and ended the Byzantine Empire in 1453, he paid for the property of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HagiaSophia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HagiaSophia</a> from his personal wealth before converting it into a mosque. The details of the renumeration are still saved in Turkish museums. <a href="https://t.co/pnFZf5SqrQ">pic.twitter.com/pnFZf5SqrQ</a></p>— Fidato (@tequieremos) <a href="https://twitter.com/tequieremos/status/1281864855251755010?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

these are called purchases under duress.

Do you think if the selling party was not willing to sell then the Ottomans would have just left it alone? The option is 'sell it and earn a little or we will take it anyway.' Dont be so naive.

Anyways i dont even have an issue with that happening. it was custom of the time. The issue is that now we are more tolerant as humans and by and large everyone is okay with the status quo so why shake the hornets nest for purely political purposes. And yes it is purely a political move. The Blue Mosque which is a stone throws away and much grander is not able to fill itself so there is literally no need for another mosque at a 2 min walking distance

 

[sweep_shot]

these are called purchases under duress.

Do you think if the selling party was not willing to sell then the Ottomans would have just left it alone? The option is 'sell it and earn a little or we will take it anyway.' Dont be so naive.

Is there any proof that it was done under duress? If there is no proof, I don't think we should assume.

 

[Slog]

Today I heard there were hundreds of mosques in Europe which has been converted into churches, and even destroyed as you said? Don’t know why everyone is crying here.

So this is revenge for you since the Europeans did that to mosques centuries ago?

besides a dozen or more cathedrals and churches asides from Hagia Sophia in Istanbul only were converted to mosques as well. Theres no great call to take action on those.

Hagia Sophia was centre of Eastern Orthodox Christianity and that is why its important. Its not just a great structure but has religious significance. It is like Masjid-e-Nabwi for us. They arent even asking to convert it back to Church but just keep it as the neutral museum its been for almost a century

 

[Slog]

Is there any proof that it was done under duress? If there is no proof, I don't think we should assume.

is there any proof it wasnt? Considering the standard of the time the default assumption is it was under duress. The inhabitants were conquered and were being driven away.

 

[sweep_shot]

is there any proof it wasnt? Considering the standard of the time the default assumption is it was under duress. The inhabitants were conquered and were being driven away.

If I accuse you of being something, I am the one who has to bring proof. You don't have to prove anything.

Burden of proof is on accuser and not accused.

I am not saying duress is impossible but there needs to be proof.

 

[Slog]

If I accuse you of being something, I am the one who has to bring proof. You don't have to prove anything.

Burden of proof is on accuser and not accused.

I am not saying duress is impossible but there needs to be proof.

No. The standard is that such transactions were under duress. What needs to be provided is that in this particular instance that did not happen.

 

[shaykh]

It’s a populist move but it is being blown out of proportion.

It’s not a cathedral being converted into a mosque. That conversion happened 500 years ago.

It’s been a museum for less than a century (since 1934).

Christian mosaics are still in there and structures won’t be changed to my understanding. It is still going to be a tourist hotspot. If of course those mosaics are taken down and the Christian aspect of the structure is amended then that is a shame.

 

[Zaz]

Its hilarious how the indian posters on here suddenly become the champions of justice when they treat their minorities as third class citizens

Where were these voices when ayodya was being teared down? Or the beef ban was put in place? or muslims were being lynched daily?

I dont think secular turkey needs lessons from indian posters on how to behave

 

[CricketCartoons]

Its hilarious how the indian posters on here suddenly become the champions of justice when they treat their minorities as third class citizens

Where were these voices when ayodya was being teared down? Or the beef ban was put in place? or muslims were being lynched daily?

I dont think secular turkey needs lessons from indian posters on how to behave

Wrong on many counts. Minorities like Jains and Parsis are treated like first class citizens. And Muslims are not third class, they are second class. Not fair to count them as minority as they were the erstwhile rulers.

When Masjid-e-Janmasthan was being torn down, the posters were either not born, or were too young, and more importantly PP didn't exist where they could raise their voice.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Muslims took over much of the civilsed world ruled your land for hundreds of years and built 1000's of mosques, nobody is whining apart from the RSS chaps.

Get over history, it wont change but you are looking at this to say us Hindus will get our temples back...even those we made up in our heads.

Hindus christians jews buddhists whoever wants to take back what waa historically theirs in a country they have majority, they will slowly start taking it.

Spain has removed much of its islamic history.

These days people are removing the history of slave owners and despots and tyrants.

Indians may decide to remove the signs of muslim invaders. As someone said that Turkey is rightfully moving to its islamic roots and removing Ataturks secular values, india too should move towards its cultural roots.

Muslims shouldn't have a problem. They can choose to do whatever they want in their country. Esp pakistanis who seem to be up in arms on every muslim issue anywhere.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes but not kangaroo courts like in the ayodya case

There is no legality in tearing down a 500yr masjid and the courts ruling for a temple to be built where it stood Absolute none

Shows how secular india is lol

Just like the turkish courts and govt decided the faith of Hagia Sofia. Indian courts and govt decided the fate Ayodhya.

Pakistanis wont decide the legality of anything Indian, just like Indians wont decide the legality of anything turkish.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yes but not kangaroo courts like in the ayodya case

There is no legality in tearing down a 500yr masjid and the courts ruling for a temple to be built where it stood Absolute none

Shows how secular india is lol

Read the full text of the judgement on Masjid-e-Janmasthan case here https://www.sci.gov.in/pdf/JUD_2.pdf

Full 1045 pages of judgement which will make King Solomon proud.

 

[irfan]

Hindus christians jews buddhists whoever wants to take back what waa historically theirs in a country they have majority, they will slowly start taking it.

Spain has removed much of its islamic history.

These days people are removing the history of slave owners and despots and tyrants.

Indians may decide to remove the signs of muslim invaders. As someone said that Turkey is rightfully moving to its islamic roots and removing Ataturks secular values, india too should move towards its cultural roots.

Muslims shouldn't have a problem. They can choose to do whatever they want in their country. Esp pakistanis who seem to be up in arms on every muslim issue anywhere.

So Indian Muslims aren't Indian & don't have a country?

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

It’s a populist move but it is being blown out of proportion.

It’s not a cathedral being converted into a mosque. That conversion happened 500 years ago.

It’s been a museum for less than a century (since 1934).

Christian mosaics are still in there and structures won’t be changed to my understanding. It is still going to be a tourist hotspot. If of course those mosaics are taken down and the Christian aspect of the structure is amended then that is a shame.

No way the mosaics are going to be taken down. Instead they are thinking of trying to blur them using some lighting (lasers) during prayers.
There is discussions going on to be able to do that without harming the paintings.

 

[shaykh]

No way the mosaics are going to be taken down. Instead they are thinking of trying to blur them using some lighting (lasers) during prayers.
There is discussions going on to be able to do that without harming the paintings.

I saw an interview where curtains were suggested ?...

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

I saw an interview where curtains were suggested ?...

yes that is the traditional option and maybe the one that makes the most sense but as I said there is discussions about the alternatives.


This is the latest translated from a newspaper that is close to Erdogan's AKP.

"The first prayer in Hagia Sophia will be performed on Friday, July 24. In the parts of the mosque to be prayed, a light system will be placed on the floor. The light will be reflected in mosaics and frescos, and will be kept closed during prayer. It is also on the agenda that mosaics and frescoes are closed with a curtain mechanism during worship hours. However, this option does not come to the fore. It is emphasized that they will be treated very sensitively in order not to experience any negativity in the historical structure.

NOTRE DAME EXAMPLE

It is considered that the opening of Hagia Sophia to worship will not decrease anything from its historical world heritage identity, and more tourists can visit Hagia Sophia. It is stated that the Notre Dame and Sacre Coeur churches in Paris are both worshiped and visited, and the same method is applied in many of the historical churches in Europe."

 

[cricketjoshila]

So Indian Muslims aren't Indian & don't have a country?

Ask this question to Turkish christians and Pakistani hindus.

 

[Zaz]

Ask this question to Turkish christians and Pakistani hindus.

Thanks very much for clearing that up Next you ll say all indian muslims should go to pakistan now right?

These people think they can tell turkey how to conduct themselves when they themselves cant treat their citizens as citizens

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Hindus christians jews buddhists whoever wants to take back what waa historically theirs in a country they have majority, they will slowly start taking it.

Spain has removed much of its islamic history.

These days people are removing the history of slave owners and despots and tyrants.

Indians may decide to remove the signs of muslim invaders. As someone said that Turkey is rightfully moving to its islamic roots and removing Ataturks secular values, india too should move towards its cultural roots.

Muslims shouldn't have a problem. They can choose to do whatever they want in their country. Esp pakistanis who seem to be up in arms on every muslim issue anywhere.

What are the chances that happens? About 15% of Indians are Muslim, and Liberal Hindus dont consider Muslims born in the subcontinent to be invaders, and dont consider there culture to be foreign.

 

[sweep_shot]

Hindus christians jews buddhists whoever wants to take back what waa historically theirs in a country they have majority, they will slowly start taking it.

Who told you western countries are taking back their countries? LOL. Have you ever lived in west? It seems like you get your information from far-right sites.

For your information, western countries are moving toward atheism and not their cultural roots (Christianity).

Your deep hatred for Islam is quite visible. Too much hatred can give you health problems. Maybe you should cut down on the hate.

 

[Slog]

From an economic perspective this would hurt turkey as they won’t be able to charge an entrance fee to one fo the most visited places in the world

 

[Zaz]

Indians may decide to remove the signs of muslim invaders

Would you consider aurangzeb an invader even though hes a 5th generation subcontinent born and bread?

Are all muslims in india invaders to you?

 

[ahmedzee]

dont really get the point of this post. One should not stop taking sensible decisions from the heart just because the other party is not doing so.

cordoba was originally a church and then was was initially a half church half mosque post-Umayyad conquest before being bought outright by the Emir.

i do get that now they suppress its islamic past and when i visited it def was sth i did not like. But as i said just because the other party is doing wrong we should not take the same step. it should be independent. secondly (and while bit irrelevant; it is true) the mosque of cordoba certainly did not have the same significance to Islam as Hagia Sophia did to Christianity. And once it was converted to museum (reaching sort of a compromise) then I dont see the point of antagonizing flames.

Finally and most importantly. The problem I have here is that Erdogan is not taking this step out of some special love for Islam. The Blue Mosque is significantly bigger and grander and is literally 20 steps away if you've ever been to the area. This is purely a political play and I do not like the idea of a religious place of worship being used as a tool to advance your political positions.

I agree with your point that Hagia Sophia has more relevance to Christians than Cordoba to Islam. Also agree that a mosque at that spot was not required since it is merely 100 m away to Sultan Ahmet Mosque (been there and yes it is grander with more capacity).

THis is true, it is a political ploy. My argument is only that they converted a Museum into a Mosque, which was a mosque before it was a museum. Its last status was not a Church that is converted to mosque (yes it used to be once upon a time).

West should still reciprocate places to become Museum rather than igniting such debates. Mosque in Palermo, Grenada, Seville, Cordoba, and so many more in Spain and Sicily (that were of any importance to Musims back then) should indeed be turned into Museums.

As for Hagia Sophia, I do agree this is a political ploy. Before people had to buy museum passes to get into it. Now people of all religion can enter it without a ticket. Whose loss is that in revenue? Turkey in the last 100 years tried their best to be a part of Eurozone (later on European Union), but they kept getting cold shouldered, only to seek to the east for strengthening of relationships. If the EU is saying that despite your liberal society you are not welcome, then I feel Turkey didn't lose much there.

 

[ahmedzee]

Cordoba church was originally the site of a visgothic cathedral.

Muslims converted Hagia Sofia to a mosque simply because they have the brute strength of majority. They should not start whining when others do the same.

Atleast Musims had the humanity to spare thousands of souls. The cordoba river opposite the mosque was red for weeks post the takeover by the city from Ferdinand. They didn't even spare a single soul int he city, killing even babies. Explain that to yourself next time. Maybe such a thing should've been done to all hindus by Ghauri or others, you wouldn't be alive now. Luckily for you, they werent barbarics they teach you in your history books and bollywood.

 

[ahmedzee]

If nawaz sharif sold Faisal Mosque or Badshaah mosque to modi, who then converted it to a temple, would the muslims accept it?

There is a 150 year old Church in Brampton, Ontario, Canada, that was bought recently (10 years ago) by Muslims (including the land). They expanded it into the parking lot and made it a mosque. Now if we go by the logic of some joshila folks here, that is still wrong because it was a church before, irrespective of purchases.

 

[JaDed]

Atleast Musims had the humanity to spare thousands of souls. The cordoba river opposite the mosque was red for weeks post the takeover by the city from Ferdinand. They didn't even spare a single soul int he city, killing even babies. Explain that to yourself next time. Maybe such a thing should've been done to all hindus by Ghauri or others, you wouldn't be alive now. Luckily for you, they werent barbarics they teach you in your history books and bollywood.

Don't think the Central board's education books mention anyone as "barbaric" .

Below is for CISE and I studied Matric it had similar details.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PkBjDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=ghori+in+indian+history+books&source=bl&ots=1-fURazl7S&sig=ACfU3U1kQc8Yw2Yrlrga9MkyqEuhXauvog&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr-oXM0MrqAhUCnKwKHfEkAmQQ6AEwCXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=ghori%20in%20indian%20history%20books&f=false


Maybe you need to make sure your knowledge is just not posters and bollywood as well.

 

[Syed1]

If nawaz sharif sold Faisal Mosque or Badshaah mosque to modi, who then converted it to a temple, would the muslims accept it?

You could have come up with a better argument than that. Nawaz Sharif isn't the owner of Faisal mosque, first he would have to purchase it himself before deciding to sell to Modi. I think CDA has ownership of the mosque and if they don't want to sell then Nawaz won't be able to sell it to his chaddi buddy.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Who told you western countries are taking back their countries? LOL. Have you ever lived in west? It seems like you get your information from far-right sites.

For your information, western countries are moving toward atheism and not their cultural roots (Christianity).

Your deep hatred for Islam is quite visible. Too much hatred can give you health problems. Maybe you should cut down on the hate.

Tell this to the voters who voted Trump and co.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Would you consider aurangzeb an invader even though hes a 5th generation subcontinent born and bread?

Are all muslims in india invaders to you?

Aurangzeb and the mughals described themselves as timurids, used Persian as their court language, hardly Indian.

I dont know why are you so perturbed by what we do in India. Turkish are free to do whatever they want in Turkey, pakistanis in pakistan, so are Indians in India.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Don't think the Central board's education books mention anyone as "barbaric" .

Below is for CISE and I studied Matric it had similar details.

Maybe you need to make sure your knowledge is just not posters and bollywood as well.

And that is wrong. Indian text books should teach about the barbarians.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Atleast Musims had the humanity to spare thousands of souls. The cordoba river opposite the mosque was red for weeks post the takeover by the city from Ferdinand. They didn't even spare a single soul int he city, killing even babies. Explain that to yourself next time. Maybe such a thing should've been done to all hindus by Ghauri or others, you wouldn't be alive now. Luckily for you, they werent barbarics they teach you in your history books and bollywood.

Muhammad of Ghor and other muslim invaders killed millions in India, looted the country, destroyed places of worship.

I am alive and following the religion of my ancestors because they refused to submit and struggled on. Not because of the benevolence of some invader.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What are the chances that happens? About 15% of Indians are Muslim, and Liberal Hindus dont consider Muslims born in the subcontinent to be invaders, and dont consider there culture to be foreign.

More than 85 percent are non muslims. Muslims are free to practice their religion. But that doesn't mean the rest of the people have to keep up with the signs of tyrannical invaders.

Religion of islam is one thing.

Invaders different.

 

[JaDed]

And that is wrong. Indian text books should teach about the barbarians.

They do teach about them, are you saying they should judge them as barbaric?

 

[sweep_shot]

Tell this to the voters who voted Trump and co.

What a stupid post! Do you think all Trump voters hate Muslims? This is what happens when you don't live in west and try to be an expert in western matters.

US population: 320,000,000 (approximately)
Trump voters last time: 62,984,828

You lost all your credibility with this post alone. Not everyone in west is a BJP lunatic like yourself.

 

[sweep_shot]

Tell this to the voters who voted Trump and co.

A lot of Trump voters didn't vote for Trump because they hated Muslims. They voted for many different reasons.

I am not sure if you are aware of swing states and swing voters. Maybe too complex for a BJP cheerleader like yourself.

 

[sweep_shot]

Aurangzeb and the mughals described themselves as timurids, used Persian as their court language, hardly Indian.

I dont know why are you so perturbed by what we do in India. Turkish are free to do whatever they want in Turkey, pakistanis in pakistan, so are Indians in India.

If Mughals wanted to, they could've wiped your kind out. But, they didn't do that. If they were really barbaric invaders, they probably would've done that. Think about it.

 

[Bigboii]

Tell this to the voters who voted Trump and co.

I wish voting for trump was as simple as hating on Muslims lol and if that was the case we would like India (a poor country with majority killing other ethnicities and taking their basic rights away from tham )

 

[ahmedzee]

Muhammad of Ghor and other muslim invaders killed millions in India, looted the country, destroyed places of worship.

I am alive and following the religion of my ancestors because they refused to submit and struggled on. Not because of the benevolence of some invader.

I guess that's the propaganda they teach the hindutva class that you attend. If millions were killed and your ancestor refused, and if Ghauri was the barbarian that you suggest, then trust me we won't be talking today. Believe what you want to believe to keep yourself happy but the so called foreign invader in India were still respectful of your religion and allowed India to flourish. It is our history as well so lets not kid ourselves.