Hassan Ali's performance post comeback just re-emphasizes the importance of FC cricket and form

[Titan24]

In 2019 Hasan was struggling for rhythm and then faced a back injury followed by rib injury along with back injury reoccurrence which gave further dim look to his career trajectory.

It took him around 1.5 years or so to completely recover from those injuries and at the same time he obviously didnt bowl much.

Then came an opportunity for Hasan Ali in the form of QAE 2020 to not only prove himself again rather to also get his much needed rhythm and form back. He not only captained the team of Central Punjab extremely well, allowing them to defend their title but as a thorough professional gave it his all with the ball. He further used the platform to apply the work he has put in during his off time on his batting and his skills with the new ball.

He took 43 wickets in 9 matches at an average of 20 with 2 five wicket hauls and 1 ten wicket haul. This was a top performance to prove himself once again and to get into contention for Pakistan team.

What followed in test cricket was something like this:

1/61
1/61
5/54
5/60
4/53
5/36

This clearly shows how important it is to select players when they are in form and how important it is to select a player after he has performed in FC cricket whether you are making a comeback after a long injury lay off or weather you want to give someone a debut.

Hassan Ali has in one season played more FC matches than most of the young pacers Pak inducted into international cricket in last few years have played in their entire domestic career so far.

So definitely a food of thought for selectors and management to first allow any young player to have a couple of seasons where he creates an impact before selecting that player. This will naturally give them a more chance to succeed and make their transition much easier.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Too many youngster are rushed into Pakistan team without play domestic cricket.They should play at least too full seasons before they are selected for Pakistan.People keep saying playing domestic cricket will make no difference due to poor quality of cricket but there is no other criteria.The best performers will be noticed.They will still have technical issues but national bowling,batting and fielding coaches can sort out these issues.

 

[Hasan123]

Seems like some time away from the team has done Hasan Ali some good. It was the right call not to throw him straight back after he recovered from injury. He played some first class cricket and earned his place back in the team. He does give too many boundary balls for my liking, I hope he can improve in this aspect. But I have been impressed with him since he returned back to international cricket.

 

[AnonKB]

In 2019 Hasan was struggling for rhythm and then faced a back injury followed by rib injury along with back injury reoccurrence which gave further dim look to his career trajectory.

It took him around 1.5 years or so to completely recover from those injuries and at the same time he obviously didnt bowl much.

Then came an opportunity for Hasan Ali in the form of QAE 2020 to not only prove himself again rather to also get his much needed rhythm and form back. He not only captained the team of Central Punjab extremely well, allowing them to defend their title but as a thorough professional gave it his all with the ball. He further used the platform to apply the work he has put in during his off time on his batting and his skills with the new ball.

He took 43 wickets in 9 matches at an average of 20 with 2 five wicket hauls and 1 ten wicket haul. This was a top performance to prove himself once again and to get into contention for Pakistan team.

What followed in test cricket was something like this:

1/61
1/61
5/54
5/60
4/53
5/36

This clearly shows how important it is to select players when they are in form and how important it is to select a player after he has performed in FC cricket whether you are making a comeback after a long injury lay off or weather you want to give someone a debut.

Hassan Ali has in one season played more FC matches than most of the young pacers Pak inducted into international cricket in last few years have played in their entire domestic career so far.

So definitely a food of thought for selectors and management to first allow any young player to have a couple of seasons where he creates an impact before selecting that player. This will naturally give them a more chance to succeed and make their transition much easier.

Really well said. Let’s hope Naseem Shah can bounce back in the same way.

I also want Hasnain to play the next QeA season, the guy has got a lot of potential and it is being wasted if he’s just playing meaningless bilateral T20s.

 

[Savak]

Seems like some time away from the team has done Hasan Ali some good. It was the right call not to throw him straight back after he recovered from injury. He played some first class cricket and earned his place back in the team. He does give too many boundary balls for my liking, I hope he can improve in this aspect. But I have been impressed with him since he returned back to international cricket.

I would rather have our bowlers be a touch expensive but them atleast picking wickets as well like Hasan Ali unlike a look good do nothing bowler like Abbas bowling 0/90 in 40 overs. You ultimately win test matches by picking up 20 wickets.

 

[UzmanBeast]

FC Cricket is extremely important, but what's more important is that his performances show that the top bowlers in the first-class system are reliable for international exposure.

Good for Hasan, he looks like he's really enjoying himself in test cricket. He gets the old ball to talk well, and I think Shaheen and Hasan compliment each other quite well. Saw some aggressive short-pitched bowling from both of them today, Shaheen is finally putting that height to some good use.

Like I've said before, FC cricket is extremely important, and I think Shaheen should also spend some more time in the QEA Trophy season building skills and more importantly bowling long spells.

However, the bigger question right now lies on the third pacer, the issue which will pop up if we have a test series away from home. Who do we take as our third pacer overseas? The best bowling attacks in the world have players who fit well together with a variety of skills to cover a greater depth of circumstances.

If we look at our pace battery for test cricket at the moment, we've got Faheem who can chime in and keep things tight, but can potentially take a wicket if he's bowling well.

Shaheen's got the height, the pace, and the swing to be a big threat with the new ball. His old ball skills need to be improved, and I like that he's finally started using the bouncer much more frequently, though he needs to work on his accuracy with that delivery. A good bouncer (if he's coming around the wicket) should follow the batsman and rise late, right now his bouncers are rising a bit early so it's predictable. It will be developed in the future as he improves his wrist position and the flick of his wrist when releasing the ball.

Hasan hasn't really set a foot wrong since his comeback, but I'd like to see him work on swinging the new ball a bit more. If he can successfully and consistently take the new ball away from the right-hander, it will give us a better chance of creating openings. His old ball skills are excellent, I have been thoroughly impressed by how he maintains the ball and bowls when the ball is reversing. I'd like to see him improve on his short-pitched bowling as well, because though he doesn't have the height, his bouncer will come on a bit skiddier so it could be a wicket-taking delivery.

Faheem is at best a 4th seamer, he's not a wicket-taker but more a player who will hold one end to build pressure. I'm a bit disappointed with his bowling performances, I expected him to contribute in the wickets column far more frequently but he just hasn't. I think the management has tried to get him to become like Abbas essentially, put it in on one spot and don't try anything. If we want to improve as a test team, we need all-rounders who can take wickets frequently, and Faheem has got to improve his bowling in order to do so. He doesn't really swing the ball at all, so if he's going to rely on seam movement, he needs to improve those skills by a fair margin.

The third pacer spot is quite confusing, even for me. One option is to bring in a bowler who can swing the ball both ways and can pair up with Shaheen up front to save more overs for Hasan when the ball is older. Considering the composition of our bowling lineup, it would mean that Faheem and Hasan would bowl with the older ball, but Faheem seems quite ineffective at that role from what I've seen. Another option would be to bring in a guy like Wahab Riaz, someone who bowls extremely well with the old ball and is specialized for that role, giving Hasan and Shaheen the new ball. Both can be effective, but our domestic system doesn't contain either of those two types of bowlers. Dahani is too inexperienced and his stats are mediocre. Tabish could be considered, but then again, he's quite old now.

It will be interesting to see who Misbah and co. bring into the test team.

 

[Hasan123]

I would rather have our bowlers be a touch expensive but them atleast picking wickets as well like Hasan Ali unlike a look good do nothing bowler like Abbas bowling 0/90 in 40 overs. You ultimately win test matches by picking up 20 wickets.

Yes we want bowlers to take wickets. But in test cricket you do need to be able to not give loose balls away to keep pressure on teams.

 

[hitthestump]

Also, Hasan lost his place and decided he had to fight for it back. Those results in QeA were a result of extremely hard work on his side. Sometimes it's good to kick out a non-performer so they come back stronger rather than persisting with them endlessly hoping they come good.

 

[MenInG]

Hassan Ali speaking to the press after his performance today:

"First of all I would give credit for my success to the improved levels of fitness for which I have worked very hard; Playing first-class cricket has really helped me as that is the longer format; I had never played 9 back to back games in my career before as I did in this season; I did the skill work needed for that format, bowled short and long spells, bowled with the new and old ball, all that has really helped me; When I cam to South Africa, I bowled on slow tracks and we have similar tracks here in Zimbabwe also"

 

[shamaan]

Good to see he made a come back by playing in the domestic and proving his worth.Now lets see how he does on sena wickets.

 

[AnonKB]

Good to see he made a come back by playing in the domestic and proving his worth.Now lets see how he does on sena wickets.

We’re not playing in SENA for 2/3 years now. He’ll be very important for us if we want to beat Eng, NZ and Aus at home tho.

 

[shamaan]

We’re not playing in SENA for 2/3 years now. He’ll be very important for us if we want to beat Eng, NZ and Aus at home tho.

Yeah I just seen thankyou.yes definitely his bowling suites asain conditions in general with his reservse swing ability.

 

[Farabi]

Hassan Ali speaking to the press after his performance today:

"First of all I would give credit for my success to the improved levels of fitness for which I have worked very hard; Playing first-class cricket has really helped me as that is the longer format; I had never played 9 back to back games in my career before as I did in this season; I did the skill work needed for that format, bowled short and long spells, bowled with the new and old ball, all that has really helped me; When I cam to South Africa, I bowled on slow tracks and we have similar tracks here in Zimbabwe also"

Hassan Ali credit’s his performance to playing 9 back to back games in First Class. Meanwhile, Tabish, whose bowled his heart out in FC for nearly 20 years taking 570 wickets is warming the bench. He should have been played ahead of rookies like Shaheen and Hassan in this test just based on his domestic performances.
Merit ka qatl-e-aaamm!!!

 

[Savak]

Yes we want bowlers to take wickets. But in test cricket you do need to be able to not give loose balls away to keep pressure on teams.

We all saw the lovely pressure Abbas created with his Zulfiqar Babar spells. No need, I would rather our bowlers attack and take wickets even if it means conceding an extra 50 runs

 

[Hasan123]

We all saw the lovely pressure Abbas created with his Zulfiqar Babar spells. No need, I would rather our bowlers attack and take wickets even if it means conceding an extra 50 runs

Why do you keep mentioning Abbas? Have I said Abbas should be selected?

If Hasan Ali is not getting wickets, the way he bowls he will be expensive. He won’t be facing Zimbabwe every test.

 

[Saj]

And this is why rushing players into international cricket, whether they are batsmen or bowlers, makes no sense at all.

Try and test them properly in first-class cricket, make sure they have domestic matches under their belt and then bring them into international cricket.

 

[Farabi]

FC Cricket is extremely important, but what's more important is that his performances show that the top bowlers in the first-class system are reliable for international exposure.

Good for Hasan, he looks like he's really enjoying himself in test cricket. He gets the old ball to talk well, and I think Shaheen and Hasan compliment each other quite well. Saw some aggressive short-pitched bowling from both of them today, Shaheen is finally putting that height to some good use.

Like I've said before, FC cricket is extremely important, and I think Shaheen should also spend some more time in the QEA Trophy season building skills and more importantly bowling long spells.

However, the bigger question right now lies on the third pacer, the issue which will pop up if we have a test series away from home. Who do we take as our third pacer overseas? The best bowling attacks in the world have players who fit well together with a variety of skills to cover a greater depth of circumstances.

If we look at our pace battery for test cricket at the moment, we've got Faheem who can chime in and keep things tight, but can potentially take a wicket if he's bowling well.

Shaheen's got the height, the pace, and the swing to be a big threat with the new ball. His old ball skills need to be improved, and I like that he's finally started using the bouncer much more frequently, though he needs to work on his accuracy with that delivery. A good bouncer (if he's coming around the wicket) should follow the batsman and rise late, right now his bouncers are rising a bit early so it's predictable. It will be developed in the future as he improves his wrist position and the flick of his wrist when releasing the ball.

Hasan hasn't really set a foot wrong since his comeback, but I'd like to see him work on swinging the new ball a bit more. If he can successfully and consistently take the new ball away from the right-hander, it will give us a better chance of creating openings. His old ball skills are excellent, I have been thoroughly impressed by how he maintains the ball and bowls when the ball is reversing. I'd like to see him improve on his short-pitched bowling as well, because though he doesn't have the height, his bouncer will come on a bit skiddier so it could be a wicket-taking delivery.

Faheem is at best a 4th seamer, he's not a wicket-taker but more a player who will hold one end to build pressure. I'm a bit disappointed with his bowling performances, I expected him to contribute in the wickets column far more frequently but he just hasn't. I think the management has tried to get him to become like Abbas essentially, put it in on one spot and don't try anything. If we want to improve as a test team, we need all-rounders who can take wickets frequently, and Faheem has got to improve his bowling in order to do so. He doesn't really swing the ball at all, so if he's going to rely on seam movement, he needs to improve those skills by a fair margin.

The third pacer spot is quite confusing, even for me. One option is to bring in a bowler who can swing the ball both ways and can pair up with Shaheen up front to save more overs for Hasan when the ball is older. Considering the composition of our bowling lineup, it would mean that Faheem and Hasan would bowl with the older ball, but Faheem seems quite ineffective at that role from what I've seen. Another option would be to bring in a guy like Wahab Riaz, someone who bowls extremely well with the old ball and is specialized for that role, giving Hasan and Shaheen the new ball. Both can be effective, but our domestic system doesn't contain either of those two types of bowlers. Dahani is too inexperienced and his stats are mediocre. Tabish could be considered, but then again, he's quite old now.

It will be interesting to see who Misbah and co. bring into the test team.

Hassan Ali’s statement validates what many have already been saying on this forum: Respect your domestic system and use that data to build the team. The standard may be low but it’s low for all the players, and the best will still be those that rise to the top
For example, check Pakistan’s batting stats. With some exceptions, The trend is obvious:
List A average = ODI average
List A SR = ODI SR
FC average = Test Average
FC SR = Test SR

Obviously, the sample size should be big enough for data-set to mature. I’d say 30+ games. Look at Younis, Babar, Azhar Ali , Misbah, Fakhar, Rizwan. Their FC stats mimics Test stats, and list A stats mimics ODI stats. If the domestic standard is so low, then why is this true.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Hassan Ali’s statement validates what many have already been saying on this forum: Respect your domestic system and use that data to build the team. The standard may be low but it’s low for all the players, and the best will still be those that rise to the top
For example, check Pakistan’s batting stats. With some exceptions, The trend is obvious:
List A average = ODI average
List A SR = ODI SR
FC average = Test Average
FC SR = Test SR

Obviously, the sample size should be big enough for data-set to mature. I’d say 30+ games. Look at Younis, Babar, Azhar Ali , Misbah, Fakhar, Rizwan. Their FC stats mimics Test stats, and list A stats mimics ODI stats. If the domestic standard is so low, then why is this true.

You picked the cases where it worked, there are also a lot of examples where it doesn't work.

Our FC system is reliable, but the List A and T20 standards are still quite poor. Players who have done well in the FC system have done well for Pakistan, but the same isn't really said for players who solely do well in T20s or List A.

That's what Pakistan need to look at, why the List A and T20 systems aren't producing players capable of performing at the international level in that format.

 

[Farabi]

You picked the cases where it worked, there are also a lot of examples where it doesn't work.

If the standard is so low in List A, then shouldnt Babar/Rizwan average much higher like 75 or something lol
Our FC system is reliable, but the List A and T20 standards are still quite poor. Players who have done well in the FC system have done well for Pakistan, but the same isn't really said for players who solely do well in T20s or List A.

That's what Pakistan need to look at, why the List A and T20 systems aren't producing players capable of performing at the international level in that format.

Can you give me an example of 3 Pakistani players who have played 50+ ODIs and 50+ List A games, and the Average/SR is significantly better in Domestic vs Internationals. If the standard is so low and not indicative, then this should not be hard to find.

Also, why is FC system reliable but not List A? What's the reason. Aren't their the same no of teams, same umpires, same management, same live telecast, almost the same talent, same grounds and pitches etc.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Nah I think selecting players from talent hunts are more special and are even better on the eyes. That makes those selections stories a stuff of fables and folklore.

 

[Rana]

He’s also a much better batsman than he was previously tbf to him.

Btw, Sharjeel Khan also had a pretty decent season as an opener in DC but I guess the goalposts will shift in his case...

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Hasan and Amir are of similar age. Hasan found himself 2 years in obscurity with diminishing fan base and Amir found himself out for 4.5 years. Hassan has come back better while returned even more egotistical while being a mere shadow of a bowler he was.

Hasan rated international cricket higher than every other level of cricket and put in due effort to get back to the international standards whille Amir hasn't played a single game apart from t20s in national t20, LPL and PSL.

The good thing with Hasan is he is apparently kept in check regarding his fitness, practice, training etc by his elder brother (someone Hasan never shies away to attribute his success to) who Hasan himself says takes his cricket more seriously than Hasan himself.

 

[Farabi]

Hasan and Amir are of similar age. Hasan found himself 2 years in obscurity with diminishing fan base and Amir found himself out for 4.5 years. Hassan has come back better while returned even more egotistical while being a mere shadow of a bowler he was.

Hasan rated international cricket higher than every other level of cricket and put in due effort to get back to the international standards whille Amir hasn't played a single game apart from t20s in national t20, LPL and PSL.

The good thing with Hasan is he is apparently kept in check regarding his fitness, practice, training etc by his elder brother (someone Hasan never shies away to attribute his success to) who Hasan himself says takes his cricket more seriously than Hasan himself.

Fair enough.
Playing in T20 leagues is also a valuable experience if you want to be a T20 player. If Amir doesn’t want to play test cricket, I don’t think selectors and fans should make it an ego battle either.
If Amir can still offer something in ODIs and T20s, then Pakistan should have taken advantage of that.
At the time of dropping Amir, he was ranked 7th in ICC ODI bowlers ranking which indicates that he wasn’t a liability in the team before he was dropped based on “performance”.

 

[Farabi]

You picked the cases where it worked, there are also a lot of examples where it doesn't work.

Our FC system is reliable, but the List A and T20 standards are still quite poor. Players who have done well in the FC system have done well for Pakistan, but the same isn't really said for players who solely do well in T20s or List A.

That's what Pakistan need to look at, why the List A and T20 systems aren't producing players capable of performing at the international level in that format.

If List A is easier and stats are bloated, then shouldn’t the List A average and SR be higher for Pakistani players for List A vs ODIs? The data seems to be saying something else. Below are all the players who have played 50+ games to get significance in sample size:

Imam:
List A: 46 @ 77
ODIs: 51.7 @ 80

Fakhar
List A: 49.2 @ 97
ODIs: 49.8 @ 97

Babar:
List A: 55 @ 86
ODIs: 57 @ 89

Hafeez:
List A: 36 @ 79
ODI: 33 @ 77

Sarfaraz:
List A : 34 @ 87.8
ODIs: 32.4 Sr N/A

Shoib Malik
List A: 34.5 @ 82
ODIs: 38

Imad Wasim:
List A: 38 @ 100
ODIs: 43 @ 110

Haris Sohail
List A: 44 @ 87
ODIs: 47 @ 85

Clearly the performance doesn’t vary whether it’s List A or domestic.

 

[Nasty Naz]

If List A is easier and stats are bloated, then shouldn’t the List A average and SR be higher for Pakistani players for List A vs ODIs? The data seems to be saying something else. Below are all the players who have played 50+ games to get significance in sample size:

Imam:
List A: 46 @ 77
ODIs: 51.7 @ 80

Fakhar
List A: 49.2 @ 97
ODIs: 49.8 @ 97

Babar:
List A: 55 @ 86
ODIs: 57 @ 89

Hafeez:
List A: 36 @ 79
ODI: 33 @ 77

Sarfaraz:
List A : 34 @ 87.8
ODIs: 32.4 Sr N/A

Shoib Malik
List A: 34.5 @ 82
ODIs: 38

Imad Wasim:
List A: 38 @ 100
ODIs: 43 @ 110

Haris Sohail
List A: 44 @ 87
ODIs: 47 @ 85

Clearly the performance doesn’t vary whether it’s List A or domestic.

Yep, it's generally like that across the format. Which is why domestic is so incredibly important. It shows your talent level. You put up mediocre performances in domestic, it is going to be the same in domestic. However, it does not mean that if you put up great performances in domestic you are guaranteed of same success but generally provides you with a probability of doing so.

 

[Shaka81]

If List A is easier and stats are bloated, then shouldn’t the List A average and SR be higher for Pakistani players for List A vs ODIs? The data seems to be saying something else. Below are all the players who have played 50+ games to get significance in sample size:

Imam:
List A: 46 @ 77
ODIs: 51.7 @ 80

Fakhar
List A: 49.2 @ 97
ODIs: 49.8 @ 97

Babar:
List A: 55 @ 86
ODIs: 57 @ 89

Hafeez:
List A: 36 @ 79
ODI: 33 @ 77

Sarfaraz:
List A : 34 @ 87.8
ODIs: 32.4 Sr N/A

Shoib Malik
List A: 34.5 @ 82
ODIs: 38

Imad Wasim:
List A: 38 @ 100
ODIs: 43 @ 110

Haris Sohail
List A: 44 @ 87
ODIs: 47 @ 85

Clearly the performance doesn’t vary whether it’s List A or domestic.

Just look at Asad Shafiq's List A stats and compare with his ODI stats to see when good domestic performances don't equate to similar international performances.

 

[Savak]

Why do you keep mentioning Abbas? Have I said Abbas should be selected?

If Hasan Ali is not getting wickets, the way he bowls he will be expensive. He won’t be facing Zimbabwe every test.

He did well against South Africa too. I back him to do well against other sides. He has a good bowling brain and knows how to set batsmen up

 

[UzmanBeast]

Can you give me an example of 3 Pakistani players who have played 50+ ODIs and 50+ List A games, and the Average/SR is significantly better in Domestic vs Internationals. If the standard is so low and not indicative, then this should not be hard to find.

Also, why is FC system reliable but not List A? What's the reason. Aren't their the same no of teams, same umpires, same management, same live telecast, almost the same talent, same grounds and pitches etc.

FC system is reliable nowadays because the Dukes ball was taken out of the equation and replaced with the Kookaburra, meaning that trundlers now need to bend their backs and actually hit a good length to get wickets. The average batting score in FC has increased, meaning that bowlers are never really at rest and need to keep fighting for a wicket. On top of that, there aren't many grass-tops if any, and most pitches are dead with little to nothing on offer for the quick bowlers. That's why Hasan's QEA was such a standout season, on those dead wickets he was able to pick up wickets at consistent intervals, and it improved his ability to set up batsmen. The number of teams doesn't really affect the reliability of the system and neither does the live telecast and management. The pitches aren't that helpful for fast-bowlers, so when a fast-bowler does exceptionally well in the FC system, you know that they bowled with intellect and have a good skillset.

I can give you quite a few examples:

Misbah Ul Haq | ODI average of 43.4 with SR of 73.75 and no centuries | List A average of 46.89 with 11 hundreds.

Sharjeel Khan | ODI average of 32.47 with SR of 113.4 | List A average of 38.55 with SR 111.

Like [MENTION=51509]Shaka81[/MENTION] said, Asad Shafiq is another example:

ODI average of 24.74 with SR 67.50 | List A average of 40.83 with SR 82.17

Mohammad Nawaz | ODI average of 20.3 with SR 91 | List A average of 31.1 with SR 89.78

Mohammad Rizwan | ODI average of 28.59 with SR 85.02 | List A average of 47.36 with SR 88.79

They don't have to have played 50 matches for me to judge the standard of the List A system because if you thought through what you said, a player who was consistently failing at international level would not get 50 games to justify himself.

Those stats should be enough to confirm the standard of our domestic system. For your other post, just refer here.

 

[Titan24]

[MENTION=153791]UzmanBeast[/MENTION] While there is no doubt domestic white ball cricket needs to improve further but the modern structure is only couple of years old with two national T20 cups (First was single round robin) and just one Pakistan Cup (Played not in a stadium rather a ground due to few preparations going in at National Stadium) and without even most 2nd string players as a big squad of Pak and Shaheens (Pak A) was sent to NZ.

Not every batsman is not going to match his domestic stats rather most players in any of the domestic structures would struggle to do that and I can give you countless examples of other teams as well. So yes it can be used as some sort of indication to the quality but, if we solely consider it as criteria to judge a system than quite a lot of domestic structures around the world will appear to be over rated. I think the main point is that a player is selected after he has shown something at domestic level rather than fast tracking them after one season. Yes there can be cases when a player averaging slightly less in domestic structure than someone else might look a better international prospect but, important thing would be if he has played decent amount of domestic matches and has created some impact rather than selecting someone purely on potential with no numbers to back at all.

That being said, I think the key point is its just the 2nd year of the new domestic structure and things are still settling in. I personally think national T20 cup this year was of pretty decent quality, Rizwan and Fakhar were in the top 5 runs scorers (Other 3 werent selected due to the numbers they performed didnt have available slots on Pak team) and both did extremely well in white ball cricket on African tour. Not every domestic performer of any country in a season is going to come in and take the world cricket by storm. So alongside improvement in domestic structure, better development and talent recognition is needed as well.

 

[UzmanBeast]

[MENTION=153791]UzmanBeast[/MENTION] While there is no doubt domestic white ball cricket needs to improve further but the modern structure is only couple of years old with two national T20 cups (First was single round robin) and just one Pakistan Cup (Played not in a stadium rather a ground due to few preparations going in at National Stadium) and without even most 2nd string players as a big squad of Pak and Shaheens (Pak A) was sent to NZ.

Not every batsman is not going to match his domestic stats rather most players in any of the domestic structures would struggle to do that and I can give you countless examples of other teams as well. So yes it can be used as some sort of indication to the quality but, if we solely consider it as criteria to judge a system than quite a lot of domestic structures around the world will appear to be over rated. I think the main point is that a player is selected after he has shown something at domestic level rather than fast tracking them after one season. Yes there can be cases when a player averaging slightly less in domestic structure than someone else might look a better international prospect but, important thing would be if he has played decent amount of domestic matches and has created some impact rather than selecting someone purely on potential with no numbers to back at all.

That being said, I think the key point is its just the 2nd year of the new domestic structure and things are still settling in. I personally think national T20 cup this year was of pretty decent quality, Rizwan and Fakhar were in the top 5 runs scorers (Other 3 werent selected due to the numbers they performed didnt have available slots on Pak team) and both did extremely well in white ball cricket on African tour. Not every domestic performer of any country in a season is going to come in and take the world cricket by storm. So alongside improvement in domestic structure, better development and talent recognition is needed as well.

I agree with all your points but it is important to understand that talent recognition is impossible with the fact that posters hype up every other street cricketer in the system.

Neither Misbah nor Waqar have the eye for talent, but more importantly, talent is not nurtured in the system at all.

Performers are also ignored, and for the people saying that the selection of Tabish and Dahani was good, both were borderline mediocre this season of QEA and did not deserve a callup ahead of others who performed far better.

If the management sees something in Dahani which could make him into a world-class player, that's understandable but the inclusion of Tabish again shows our backward thinking. Some selections are a step in the right direction whereas others are absolutely unnecessary.

From our domestic system, we have yet to find a single capable batsman in the middle order which is quite shocking. Those who have been tried out failed to keep a spot for themselves on the team, and some have been given more than ample opportunities which they continue to fail in utilizing.

Player development itself is non-existent, we can see Haider repeating the same mistakes over and over without learning anything. Bowlers like Shaheen have only marginally improved in the coaching tenure of Waqar Younis, showing that there is little to no improvement at that young age. Players like Naseem were practically tortured to play even after sustaining injuries, and forced to change their natural action.

The fact is that more players are regressing on our team than they are actually becoming better, which is quite sad to see.

The domestic system is also to blame, but I completely agree that the management holds a greater percentage of the blame as well.

 

[Farabi]

FC system is reliable nowadays because the Dukes ball was taken out of the equation and replaced with the Kookaburra, meaning that trundlers now need to bend their backs and actually hit a good length to get wickets. The average batting score in FC has increased, meaning that bowlers are never really at rest and need to keep fighting for a wicket. On top of that, there aren't many grass-tops if any, and most pitches are dead with little to nothing on offer for the quick bowlers. That's why Hasan's QEA was such a standout season, on those dead wickets he was able to pick up wickets at consistent intervals, and it improved his ability to set up batsmen. The number of teams doesn't really affect the reliability of the system and neither does the live telecast and management. The pitches aren't that helpful for fast-bowlers, so when a fast-bowler does exceptionally well in the FC system, you know that they bowled with intellect and have a good skillset.

I can give you quite a few examples:

Misbah Ul Haq | ODI average of 43.4 with SR of 73.75 and no centuries | List A average of 46.89 with 11 hundreds.

Sharjeel Khan | ODI average of 32.47 with SR of 113.4 | List A average of 38.55 with SR 111.

Like [MENTION=51509]Shaka81[/MENTION] said, Asad Shafiq is another example:

ODI average of 24.74 with SR 67.50 | List A average of 40.83 with SR 82.17

Mohammad Nawaz | ODI average of 20.3 with SR 91 | List A average of 31.1 with SR 89.78

Mohammad Rizwan | ODI average of 28.59 with SR 85.02 | List A average of 47.36 with SR 88.79

They don't have to have played 50 matches for me to judge the standard of the List A system because if you thought through what you said, a player who was consistently failing at international level would not get 50 games to justify himself.

Those stats should be enough to confirm the standard of our domestic system. For your other post, just refer here.

50 min games is absolutely necessary from a mathematical point of view because we are comparing averages of two different data-sets. We need to make sure that the ODI data-set has matured before the average/SR data becomes reliable. Also, important to note that first few games are also nervy for debutants and don’t actually indicate the quality of the player.

My Central hypothesis is that MOST players will replicate their List A performance into international ODIs AS LONG AS they are given a long enough rope (50+ games), confidence and backing from management, and consistent chances at the right batting order. Most does not mean all.

Your example for Asad Shafiq is a good one where a player wasn’t able to convert their domestic performances into international. As I’ve said before, there will be exceptions to the general rule, and Asad Shafiq is a statistical anomaly.

Misbah and Sharjeel’s stats are pretty close and I would call that natural variation. Sharjeel’s international data-set is a bit small, and if he had played 30-40 more games, that gap would have shrunk for sure and we might see that happening soon.

For Rizwan, it is too early. Just 38 games and he’s moved around the batting order a lot. His List A average is 47 and I am pretty confident Rizwan will achieve 47 as an overall ODI average pretty soon now that he’s playing that no4 slot. Let’s circle back on it.

Again, Mohammad Nawaz too early to say with just 16 games.

 

[Farabi]

I agree with all your points but it is important to understand that talent recognition is impossible with the fact that posters hype up every other street cricketer in the system.

Neither Misbah nor Waqar have the eye for talent, but more importantly, talent is not nurtured in the system at all.

Performers are also ignored, and for the people saying that the selection of Tabish and Dahani was good, both were borderline mediocre this season of QEA and did not deserve a callup ahead of others who performed far better.

If the management sees something in Dahani which could make him into a world-class player, that's understandable but the inclusion of Tabish again shows our backward thinking. Some selections are a step in the right direction whereas others are absolutely unnecessary.

From our domestic system, we have yet to find a single capable batsman in the middle order which is quite shocking. Those who have been tried out failed to keep a spot for themselves on the team, and some have been given more than ample opportunities which they continue to fail in utilizing.

Player development itself is non-existent, we can see Haider repeating the same mistakes over and over without learning anything. Bowlers like Shaheen have only marginally improved in the coaching tenure of Waqar Younis, showing that there is little to no improvement at that young age. Players like Naseem were practically tortured to play even after sustaining injuries, and forced to change their natural action.

The fact is that more players are regressing on our team than they are actually becoming better, which is quite sad to see.

The domestic system is also to blame, but I completely agree that the management holds a greater percentage of the blame as well.

Forget Misbah/Waqar, no one has the eye for talent.
Fawad was called to camps after scoring tons of runs, and ignored after selector/coaches “saw” him in the nets. Virtually no one “saw” his talent over a decade. He was included after media pressure. More than 5 selectors ignored Fawad, countless experts, coaches and campaigns. All these self-styled pundits who seem to claim they can “eyeball” talent had no clue. That’s why we should trust data!!!

On dirth of local batting talent, I humbly disagree. Like I’ve said before, Pakistan has batting talent, the problem is pathways and how we transition them to international cricket, giving confidence and consistent. Chances. We either didn’t try the right middle order batsmen or didn’t give those players a long enough rope to prove themselves.
The conventional wisdom is that players need2-3 games. Most of these guys were dropped after couple games. There was a Musical circus of chopping and changing.
They should’ve identified 1 best middle order batsman based on domestic data and given him 20-30 games.


And not all batsmen are not regressing. Rizwan, Babar, Fakhar all seem to have improved. Haris and Imam haven’t regressed.
Which established batsman has regressed in the team?

 

[Saj]

I think you also have to remember that when this lad came into international cricket he had done the hard yards in domestic cricket and at junior levels and for Pakistan A. He was ready for international cricket and not rushed into it like so many others are these days.

 

[Farabi]

I think you also have to remember that when this lad came into international cricket he had done the hard yards in domestic cricket and at junior levels and for Pakistan A. He was ready for international cricket and not rushed into it like so many others are these days.

Absolutely aligned Saj.
PCB just doesn’t seem like a very professional and data-driven entity. They continuously fast-track youngsters before they are ready and punt on players w/o proven performances. Other times, players are never given consistent chances in the right format at the right batting position before they are discarded.
Impatient fans think players can be judged after 2-3 international games. When the player fails, they start blaming the domestic system and call for reforms.
It’s really a travesty. How can Khurram Manzoor get only 7 ODI games after 55 List A average or how come Fawad got just 2 tests after averaging 55 in FC.
Because we miss these types of players that our domestic system DOES produce, it seems as if the domestic system is not producing battling talent, when it is, and we are just too incompetent to utilize it.

Rohit Sharma is an example of a player that took time to convert his amazing domestic performance at international level. Many Pakistanis think he was persisted with because he “looked” talented to the naked eye and that he was some sort of selection “punt”. But Sharma was actually a very consistent domestic performer and he had beastly domestic stats even when he was failing internationally.

 

[Farabi]

Just look at Asad Shafiq's List A stats and compare with his ODI stats to see when good domestic performances don't equate to similar international performances.

Agreed about Asad and there are indeed other such examples as well.
BUT by and large, for most players who have played enough ODIs and List A games, when you compare their performance after a few years, you will not find a lot of difference between what they achieved domestically and internationally. Their seems to be a strong correlation there.

 

[UzmanBeast]

50 min games is absolutely necessary from a mathematical point of view because we are comparing averages of two different data-sets. We need to make sure that the ODI data-set has matured before the average/SR data becomes reliable. Also, important to note that first few games are also nervy for debutants and don’t actually indicate the quality of the player.

My Central hypothesis is that MOST players will replicate their List A performance into international ODIs AS LONG AS they are given a long enough rope (50+ games), confidence and backing from management, and consistent chances at the right batting order. Most does not mean all.

Your example for Asad Shafiq is a good one where a player wasn’t able to convert their domestic performances into international. As I’ve said before, there will be exceptions to the general rule, and Asad Shafiq is a statistical anomaly.

Misbah and Sharjeel’s stats are pretty close and I would call that natural variation. Sharjeel’s international data-set is a bit small, and if he had played 30-40 more games, that gap would have shrunk for sure and we might see that happening soon.

For Rizwan, it is too early. Just 38 games and he’s moved around the batting order a lot. His List A average is 47 and I am pretty confident Rizwan will achieve 47 as an overall ODI average pretty soon now that he’s playing that no4 slot. Let’s circle back on it.

Again, Mohammad Nawaz too early to say with just 16 games.

Your whole argument is practically flawed because you are isolating your argument only to the cases where this trend is true and ignoring all other trends.

The only reason there is no data to counter your flawed claim is that you have created a standard where it is practically impossible to find data pieces to contradict yourself.

I think you need to look through your argument and add a bit of sense to it because 38 games is quite a large sample size to judge a player.

With your logic, Asad Shafiq should be recalled to the ODI team and should be given 25 more ODI games before we can drop him.

Absolutely ridiculous, I expected a more reasonable argument from you.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Forget Misbah/Waqar, no one has the eye for talent.
Fawad was called to camps after scoring tons of runs, and ignored after selector/coaches “saw” him in the nets. Virtually no one “saw” his talent over a decade. He was included after media pressure. More than 5 selectors ignored Fawad, countless experts, coaches and campaigns. All these self-styled pundits who seem to claim they can “eyeball” talent had no clue. That’s why we should trust data!!!

On dirth of local batting talent, I humbly disagree. Like I’ve said before, Pakistan has batting talent, the problem is pathways and how we transition them to international cricket, giving confidence and consistent. Chances. We either didn’t try the right middle order batsmen or didn’t give those players a long enough rope to prove themselves.
The conventional wisdom is that players need2-3 games. Most of these guys were dropped after couple games. There was a Musical circus of chopping and changing.
They should’ve identified 1 best middle order batsman based on domestic data and given him 20-30 games.


And not all batsmen are not regressing. Rizwan, Babar, Fakhar all seem to have improved. Haris and Imam haven’t regressed.
Which established batsman has regressed in the team?

Eye for talent does exist, some players are extremely talented yet haven't performed yet.

Take the example of Rohit Sharma, pushed deep into the middle order. It's quite clear that Dhoni saw the potential in the guy and took a gamble by sending him to open. Now, he is arguably the best white-ball opener.

The point is that people do have an eye for talent, it truly does exist. Only a few people, however, possess the ability to find talent and make that talent into superstar material.

Shadab, Imad, Amir, Wahab, Haider, etc. are all regressing whether we admit it or not. Some by age, others by skill level, and more. Add Naseem to that list as well.

Fawad wasn't a talented cricketer, he was an extremely dedicated and gritty player, one who uses common sense and intellect when he's at the crease. I rate him ahead of most in our test team simply because he puts his limited talent to use. He might not be pleasing, but he sure as heck is an effective player, and his ability to rotate strike and pick gaps is quite commendable.

Yes, I agree that players need a long rope but that's given that they perform as well.

Certain roles in the team require longer ropes than others. For example, the #4 slot is absolutely crucial to the ODI setup, Saud will have only a handful of games to make that spot his own because it's a spot that holds the innings together.

Compare that with a hitter down at #6, people understand that it's difficult to come out and smash the ball, so the management is willing to give a longer rope to a player at that position.

Right now, we are basically lacking an entire middle order from 4-6 in ODI, and positions 5 and 6 in T20Is.

How we go about filling those gaps will determine where we actually stand before the T20 World Cup.

 

[Rellu_Katta]

more than ever , Haider Ali needs to go back n play domestic for at least 2 seasons ..

he really needs to develop situation assessment... his current reading of the game is really stupid

Hope to see Naseem and Haider picking up their game along with Hussnian ... they are the future

 

[Farabi]

Your whole argument is practically flawed because you are isolating your argument only to the cases where this trend is true and ignoring all other trends.

The only reason there is no data to counter your flawed claim is that you have created a standard where it is practically impossible to find data pieces to contradict yourself.

I think you need to look through your argument and add a bit of sense to it because 38 games is quite a large sample size to judge a player.

With your logic, Asad Shafiq should be recalled to the ODI team and should be given 25 more ODI games before we can drop him.

Absolutely ridiculous, I expected a more reasonable argument from you.

You don’t provide a mathematical reason as to why it’s flawed. It’s basic stats that you can’t makes conclusion on a data-set without adequate Sample size.
On Rizwan, yes 38 games is a good sample size. That said Rizwan averaged 47 in Lish A higher up the order at no 4 slot whereas he played a completely different role of no 7 slogger for internationals.
Now that he’s been moved up the order in ODIs, just wait and see... he will be averaging close to 47 in 1-2 years.
Asad’s played 60 games so his results are pretty stable at this point, so no we should not be bringing him back at this point.

 

[Farabi]

Eye for talent does exist, some players are extremely talented yet haven't performed yet.

Take the example of Rohit Sharma, pushed deep into the middle order. It's quite clear that Dhoni saw the potential in the guy and took a gamble by sending him to open. Now, he is arguably the best white-ball opener.

The point is that people do have an eye for talent, it truly does exist. Only a few people, however, possess the ability to find talent and make that talent into superstar material.

Shadab, Imad, Amir, Wahab, Haider, etc. are all regressing whether we admit it or not. Some by age, others by skill level, and more. Add Naseem to that list as well.

Fawad wasn't a talented cricketer, he was an extremely dedicated and gritty player, one who uses common sense and intellect when he's at the crease. I rate him ahead of most in our test team simply because he puts his limited talent to use. He might not be pleasing, but he sure as heck is an effective player, and his ability to rotate strike and pick gaps is quite commendable.

Yes, I agree that players need a long rope but that's given that they perform as well.

Certain roles in the team require longer ropes than others. For example, the #4 slot is absolutely crucial to the ODI setup, Saud will have only a handful of games to make that spot his own because it's a spot that holds the innings together.

Compare that with a hitter down at #6, people understand that it's difficult to come out and smash the ball, so the management is willing to give a longer rope to a player at that position.

Right now, we are basically lacking an entire middle order from 4-6 in ODI, and positions 5 and 6 in T20Is.

How we go about filling those gaps will determine where we actually stand before the T20 World Cup.

Look I agree on your point about Fawad. Don’t you think it’s a great case study where the eye test failed!!
8 different team managements ignored him because he didn’t “look” talented on the eye?
Likes of Mohammad Ilyas, Haroon Rasheed, Inzamam, Mickey, Misbah, you name it, they all got it wrong when they trusted their own eyes over what the data was saying.

As for Rohit, I agree that he looked special on the eyes. But let’s not forget that Rohit was also a bully in domestic cricket. He had extraordinary performances both in FC and List A EVEN BEFORE Dhoni sent him as an opener in 2013.
Until 2013, Rohit’s Average was 61 in FC and 47 in List A.
Rohit’sf domestic stats were always very promising and indicated a very high ceiling, and after a loooonnnnnngggg rope, Rohit finally started fulfilling that potential from 2013.

 

[Shaka81]

Agreed about Asad and there are indeed other such examples as well.
BUT by and large, for most players who have played enough ODIs and List A games, when you compare their performance after a few years, you will not find a lot of difference between what they achieved domestically and internationally. Their seems to be a strong correlation there.

Another big example for me would be Shan Masood. He's a giant in the domestic scene for List A games but no one can convince me he can do similar in the international game.

 

[Farabi]

Another big example for me would be Shan Masood. He's a giant in the domestic scene for List A games but no one can convince me he can do similar in the international game.

Why can’t he? Opening in white ball is MUCH easier than in Red Ball.
Shan deserves to be in Pakistan’s ODI planning based on his amazing List A stats. Shan is classic example of flawed PCB planning where Shan was wrongly selected in test cricket when his performance was in List A not FC. Mostly likely to accommodate Imam
You have to give Shan 30-40 ODI games before judging.

 

[Farabi]

Everyone bats and bowls on the same pitches the best players are always most likely to be those who perform better than others consistently. If they fail to take their chance in internationals, fine, discard, and pick again. There is no more reliable system than this, and should be noted that domestic performance tends to track international quite well in ODIs.

 

[Titan24]

I think you also have to remember that when this lad came into international cricket he had done the hard yards in domestic cricket and at junior levels and for Pakistan A. He was ready for international cricket and not rushed into it like so many others are these days.

Exactly. He was well prepared playing domestic cricket as well as for Pak A and then PSL gave him to platform to take that extra leap. Its ironic when we look at the fact that while making his comeback Hasan played more FC matches let alone before making his debut than quite a few youngsters who have been in and out of the Pakistan team in recent times.

Really don’t understand the rush of fast tracking every player who shows bit of something straight to the national team. At most if any such player is identified he should be transitioned to the NHPC coaches to have off season emerging camps so that their development can be given extra push. When there were not many such facilities with highly paid coaches like NHPA and NCA currently have than one could have argued that a player can learn by being around national team but, it now it makes no sense for a player to pushed to national team for development purposes when PCB has whole set pf coaches at the back end who can fine tune their game.

 

[UzmanBeast]

You don’t provide a mathematical reason as to why it’s flawed. It’s basic stats that you can’t makes conclusion on a data-set without adequate Sample size.
On Rizwan, yes 38 games is a good sample size. That said Rizwan averaged 47 in Lish A higher up the order at no 4 slot whereas he played a completely different role of no 7 slogger for internationals.
Now that he’s been moved up the order in ODIs, just wait and see... he will be averaging close to 47 in 1-2 years.
Asad’s played 60 games so his results are pretty stable at this point, so no we should not be bringing him back at this point.

Players shouldn't need 50 games to exhibit at least one or two innings of quality to suggest that they can replicate domestic performances at the international level. Especially against weaker opponents and the D teams of other countries.

Your idea about a sample size is fine for ODI cricket as the World Cup is reasonably far away, but for T20 Cricket, we don't have the luxury of an incredibly long rope to offer players. Furthermore, if these leg-side hacks don't perform in the opportunities they are provided against weak teams, the management has no reason to trust that they will do the same against full-strength outfits.

The teams in the National T20 Cup had better bowling attacks than the South African and Zimbabwean bowling lineups, yet our players still failed continuously.

Our batsmen are practically timid and have no spine when they are batting, especially our middle order. I can't think of a more spineless middle order in modern day cricket amongst the top 10 playing nations.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Look I agree on your point about Fawad. Don’t you think it’s a great case study where the eye test failed!!
8 different team managements ignored him because he didn’t “look” talented on the eye?
Likes of Mohammad Ilyas, Haroon Rasheed, Inzamam, Mickey, Misbah, you name it, they all got it wrong when they trusted their own eyes over what the data was saying.

As for Rohit, I agree that he looked special on the eyes. But let’s not forget that Rohit was also a bully in domestic cricket. He had extraordinary performances both in FC and List A EVEN BEFORE Dhoni sent him as an opener in 2013.
Until 2013, Rohit’s Average was 61 in FC and 47 in List A.
Rohit’sf domestic stats were always very promising and indicated a very high ceiling, and after a loooonnnnnngggg rope, Rohit finally started fulfilling that potential from 2013.

Fawad was dropped because of sheer incompetence by the selection panel, and I can't imagine how braindead and brain-damaged the selectors must have been to ignore him in the domestic circuit.

However, at Fawad's time, Pakistan had already invested in Misbah, Younis, Azhar, and Asad, so there was basically no room to fit Fawad into the team.

After Misbah and Younis retired, Fawad should have been considered but unfortunately, he wasn't.

The eye for talent I'm referring to is when a player at a very young age is found and identified for a particular format and is developed until he is fulfilling his talent at the highest level. Seeing what happened with Naseem Shah was quite devastating because he was fast-tracked as opposed to being allowed to bowl and grow in the domestic system. If Naseem had not been selected for away tours and kept for home tours, and had been asked to bowl long overs in the QEA, I can tell you that he would have been a very, very good prospect for us.

All that Naseem had to overcome was finding his natural hard-length, that was the last obstacle he faced before he could become a consistent bowler, but taking him to different tours around the world on foreign conditions ruined his growth.

He should have been bowling on those dead QEA Trophy wickets to improve as a bowler, and now, we have perhaps ruined a very good prospect for the future. It's sad to think about, but it's an example of how we identified the talent but destroyed it instead of nurturing it.

 

[Farabi]

Players shouldn't need 50 games to exhibit at least one or two innings of quality to suggest that they can replicate domestic performances at the international level. Especially against weaker opponents and the D teams of other countries.

Your idea about a sample size is fine for ODI cricket as the World Cup is reasonably far away, but for T20 Cricket, we don't have the luxury of an incredibly long rope to offer players. Furthermore, if these leg-side hacks don't perform in the opportunities they are provided against weak teams, the management has no reason to trust that they will do the same against full-strength outfits.

The teams in the National T20 Cup had better bowling attacks than the South African and Zimbabwean bowling lineups, yet our players still failed continuously.

Our batsmen are practically timid and have no spine when they are batting, especially our middle order. I can't think of a more spineless middle order in modern day cricket amongst the top 10 playing nations.

Oh yeah! Agreed that genuine players don’t need 50 games, they will show their potential within 5-10 games. The 50 games threshold is for a new player to achieve their full potential in ODI cricket.
Happy path for the typical player:
First 1-5 games —> nervy, fearful and cautious
5-15 games —-> gets a good knock in, develops little confidence
15-30 —->> few knocks under the belt, some confidence has developed
30-50 games —-> full confidence and starts performing near potential
.
There will be exceptions to this path and some players who are very confident starters. But others are mere mortals like you and I.

 

[Farabi]

Fawad was dropped because of sheer incompetence by the selection panel, and I can't imagine how braindead and brain-damaged the selectors must have been to ignore him in the domestic circuit.

However, at Fawad's time, Pakistan had already invested in Misbah, Younis, Azhar, and Asad, so there was basically no room to fit Fawad into the team.

After Misbah and Younis retired, Fawad should have been considered but unfortunately, he wasn't.

The eye for talent I'm referring to is when a player at a very young age is found and identified for a particular format and is developed until he is fulfilling his talent at the highest level. Seeing what happened with Naseem Shah was quite devastating because he was fast-tracked as opposed to being allowed to bowl and grow in the domestic system. If Naseem had not been selected for away tours and kept for home tours, and had been asked to bowl long overs in the QEA, I can tell you that he would have been a very, very good prospect for us.

All that Naseem had to overcome was finding his natural hard-length, that was the last obstacle he faced before he could become a consistent bowler, but taking him to different tours around the world on foreign conditions ruined his growth.

He should have been bowling on those dead QEA Trophy wickets to improve as a bowler, and now, we have perhaps ruined a very good prospect for the future. It's sad to think about, but it's an example of how we identified the talent but destroyed it instead of nurturing it.

There’s a very sinister reason for Fawad’s non-selection and it shouldn’t be a mystery at all!
Fawad’s non-selection was due to a consistent pattern in Pakistan cricket of favoring stylish/elegant batsmen who are pleasing on the eyes. Guys like Umer Akmal, Ahmed Shahzad, Umer Amin are huge beneficiaries. [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] wrote an article about this as well.
The selectors ignored Fawad because he didn’t look right on the eyes due to his unusual stance and game.
Inzi for example famously said “I’ve seen better players than Fawad” after rejecting him in 2016/2017. And I think it’s the “seeing” part that tells you everything you need to know.
My stance is this: selectors upon selectors and coaches upon coaches ignored Fawad’s runs because of his unorthodoxy. Turns out they were all wrong as their “eyes” were not dependable. then why should we trust them and not the data.

Aligned on your Naseem comment. I am glad Hassan’s come out in support of FC which will influence guys like Naseem , Shadab and Hasnain to also follow suit
I grew up watching cricket in the 90s when guys like Saeed, Saqlain, Inzi almost always placed FC games, and that showed in their quality. It’s sad that these young kids like Shadab, Imad and Hassan are seen playing leagues instead of FC which is why their quality deteriorated so much

 

[UzmanBeast]

Oh yeah! Agreed that genuine players don’t need 50 games, they will show their potential within 5-10 games. The 50 games threshold is for a new player to achieve their full potential in ODI cricket.
Happy path for the typical player:
First 1-5 games —> nervy, fearful and cautious
5-15 games —-> gets a good knock in, develops little confidence
15-30 —->> few knocks under the belt, some confidence has developed
30-50 games —-> full confidence and starts performing near potential
.
There will be exceptions to this path and some players who are very confident starters. But others are mere mortals like you and I.

There's also a mindset issue in Pakistan Cricket, especially for new batsmen.

They take way too much time to play their natural game.

Someone like Ishan Kishan steps out, doesn't care who the bowler is but knows his role, and gets straight to it. These guys like Kishan, Pant, Suryakumar are first of all experienced in domestic cricket but are given confidence and backing at the international level. It has a lot of factors, primarily because they know there are reliable batsmen around them but more importantly they don't shy away from pressure. Pakistani batsmen are very prone to be criticized in the media for XYZ reasons and tend to have very low self-esteem.

It's something interesting which should be looked into.

 

[UzmanBeast]

There’s a very sinister reason for Fawad’s non-selection and it shouldn’t be a mystery at all!
Fawad’s non-selection was due to a consistent pattern in Pakistan cricket of favoring stylish/elegant batsmen who are pleasing on the eyes. Guys like Umer Akmal, Ahmed Shahzad, Umer Amin are huge beneficiaries. [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] wrote an article about this as well.
The selectors ignored Fawad because he didn’t look right on the eyes due to his unusual stance and game.
Inzi for example famously said “I’ve seen better players than Fawad” after rejecting him in 2016/2017. And I think it’s the “seeing” part that tells you everything you need to know.
My stance is this: selectors upon selectors and coaches upon coaches ignored Fawad’s runs because of his unorthodoxy. Turns out they were all wrong as their “eyes” were not dependable. then why should we trust them and not the data.

Aligned on your Naseem comment. I am glad Hassan’s come out in support of FC which will influence guys like Naseem , Shadab and Hasnain to also follow suit
I grew up watching cricket in the 90s when guys like Saeed, Saqlain, Inzi almost always placed FC games, and that showed in their quality. It’s sad that these young kids like Shadab, Imad and Hassan are seen playing leagues instead of FC which is why their quality deteriorated so much

I agree with your comments about Fawad, but his chances for selection realistically only began after the retirement of Misbah and Younis. That's when he should have been selected, but he wasn't because of the reasons you mentioned.

Young players in the Pakistan setup are too caught up in playing in flashy T20 leagues and getting good money as opposed to bending their backs in the FC system. I repeat my point that if Shadab played about 20-30 more FC games, he'd be much more consistent in his bowling. Heck, he could even have replaced Yasir for overseas tours if he played more FC cricket.

Imad is a different example, he purposely didn't bowl himself as KK captain to avoid the pressure as his bowling deteriorated greatly. He never promoted himself up the order playing for KK and neither in the Pakistan National team for reasons unknown. What Imad needs is to find a new dimension to his bowling, because darting the ball only works to some extent. Maybe he could add a carrom ball or another variation in his sleeve to assist him in his bowling.

 

[shamaan]

I agree with all your points but it is important to understand that talent recognition is impossible with the fact that posters hype up every other street cricketer in the system.

Neither Misbah nor Waqar have the eye for talent, but more importantly, talent is not nurtured in the system at all.

Performers are also ignored, and for the people saying that the selection of Tabish and Dahani was good, both were borderline mediocre this season of QEA and did not deserve a callup ahead of others who performed far better.

If the management sees something in Dahani which could make him into a world-class player, that's understandable but the inclusion of Tabish again shows our backward thinking. Some selections are a step in the right direction whereas others are absolutely unnecessary.

From our domestic system, we have yet to find a single capable batsman in the middle order which is quite shocking. Those who have been tried out failed to keep a spot for themselves on the team, and some have been given more than ample opportunities which they continue to fail in utilizing.

Player development itself is non-existent, we can see Haider repeating the same mistakes over and over without learning anything. Bowlers like Shaheen have only marginally improved in the coaching tenure of Waqar Younis, showing that there is little to no improvement at that young age. Players like Naseem were practically tortured to play even after sustaining injuries, and forced to change their natural action.

The fact is that more players are regressing on our team than they are actually becoming better, which is quite sad to see.

The domestic system is also to blame, but I completely agree that the management holds a greater percentage of the blame as well.

Saud shakeel,kamran ghullam,usman saladin can potentially play at 3-5

 

[UzmanBeast]

Saud shakeel,kamran ghullam,usman saladin can potentially play at 3-5

I wasn't referring to tests, more towards ODI and T20I.

Saud can fit in ODI, but we have no good middle-order options in T20s.

 

[shamaan]

I wasn't referring to tests, more towards ODI and T20I.

Saud can fit in ODI, but we have no good middle-order options in T20s.

Consistent chance is the key to performance.we tend to give people 3 chances and then drop them or we end up giving them 100 chances with little to show in performance.

 

[HussainZ]

Saud shakeel,kamran ghullam,usman saladin can potentially play at 3-5

Don't think Usman can get a chance in the middle order for a while. He seriously needs to start opening in FC as he's way better than the competition i.e. Abid/Butt/Shan/Imam

 

[shamaan]

Don't think Usman can get a chance in the middle order for a while. He seriously needs to start opening in FC as he's way better than the competition i.e. Abid/Butt/Shan/Imam

I agree he does need to open like you said he has a better technique than the ones you mentioned.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Playing newbies on international stage is not investment, its illogical

International game is results business.

Pakistan management over the last decade or so, have been treating it as a training ground for young cricketers.

Enough evidence is in place with the likes of Musa, Naseem, Abdullah Shafiq and others that fast tracking players with few domestic games under their belt is suicidal.

The place to put an investment in young bowlers is in domestic cricket. That is where you learn to move the ball, grind it out when things are not in favor, learn to read the pitch and play the conditions, set traps for batsmen, understand the psychology of opposition, give back to the wall performances, win and lose against odds and eventually rise through a mixture of talent and hardwork.

Same for batsmen.

Rewarding those who haven't done it for even a season sets Pakistan cricket up for failure - as we have seen over and over again.

People are up in arms about Dhani not getting a debut in Zimbabwe forget that he has had barely any time in domestic game. If he played and took 10 wickets in the game, it would have set him back more than brought him forward - because he would not learn anything from it.

It's time to use those who have known how to get wickets and score runs for years to get some results on the pitch.

Playing Tabish is not a reward for his years in cricket. It is a selfish thing so he can get you wickets and everyone around him learns from his craft. I seriously hope he performs.

Pakistan domestic cricket, contrary to popular belief, provides a very good guage of international performance.

Stop the non-sense over playing nobodies over those who know how to do it.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

I do wish he had got his chance 8 years earlier but really, what have we seen in these 8 years?

 

[Farabi]

International game is results business.

Pakistan management over the last decade or so, have been treating it as a training ground for young cricketers.

Enough evidence is in place with the likes of Musa, Naseem, Abdullah Shafiq and others that fast tracking players with few domestic games under their belt is suicidal.

The place to put an investment in young bowlers is in domestic cricket. That is where you learn to move the ball, grind it out when things are not in favor, learn to read the pitch and play the conditions, set traps for batsmen, understand the psychology of opposition, give back to the wall performances, win and lose against odds and eventually rise through a mixture of talent and hardwork.

Same for batsmen.

Rewarding those who haven't done it for even a season sets Pakistan cricket up for failure - as we have seen over and over again.

People are up in arms about Dhani not getting a debut in Zimbabwe forget that he has had barely any time in domestic game. If he played and took 10 wickets in the game, it would have set him back more than brought him forward - because he would not learn anything from it.

It's time to use those who have known how to get wickets and score runs for years to get some results on the pitch.

Playing Tabish is not a reward for his years in cricket. It is a selfish thing so he can get you wickets and everyone around him learns from his craft. I seriously hope he performs.

Pakistan domestic cricket, contrary to popular belief, provides a very good guage of international performance.

Stop the non-sense over playing nobodies over those who know how to do it.

Thank you!
Problem is that selectors take punts on guys like Dhani, Danish Aziz who never actually did the grind in domestic and go on to fail at the international level. Then Media/social media/PP fans say domestic system is unreliable. Lol
Somebody like Saud Shakeel would be a really good gauge of how good the domestic system really is because Saud has done the grind from the grassroots level. Unfortunately, he didn’t get a game today.
Rizwan and Babar are other examples of guys who joined after theek thaak domestic “raghra”

 

[Saj]

23 wickets so far in his last 5 Test innings.

Fantastic effort.

 

[Maliq_Mudasir]

Not everyone blames system, some put their efforts at domestic level and make a strong comeback.

#Amir #hasan

 

[Yasir_ch]

He has been breath of fresh air.Best player in the team right now.I hope he keeps working hard and keeps picking up wickets.

 

[ChTab]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A few days ago Hassan Ali had his best figures in Test cricket - 5/36<br><br>Today he's improved that and taken - 5/27<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ZIMvPAK?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ZIMvPAK</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1391327142395457536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[ChTab]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hassan Ali's figures in the last 5 innings in Tests:<br><br>5/27<br>5/36<br>4/53<br>5/60<br>5/54<br><br>24 wickets at an average of 9.58<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/lzGie581wR">pic.twitter.com/lzGie581wR</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1391326544753221633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Slim]

Top lad! So good to see him hitting back form.

 

[Saj]

The ball is just coming out of his hand so nicely and watching his bowling compared to Tabish, it was clear that there was some zip and carry through to the keeper when Hassan was bowling, whereas for Tabish the ball was dying on the way to Rizwan.

Reversed it too in this match, good pace and looks in great form.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Not everyone blames system, some put their efforts at domestic level and make a strong comeback.

#Amir #hasan

Don’t think Hasan Ali was getting called out by the team management like Amir was, just because Amir didn’t want to play tests.

Don’t think Hasan Ali would be happy getting dropped for an important tour over players likes Musa Khan, Haris Rauf, Sohail Khan, Mohammad Hasnain etc.

And I certainly don’t think Hassan Ali could bowl 380 overs in test cricket in a year after being banned for 5 years.

#Hasan #Amir

 

[Savak]

I like the pathway in the Indian set up, if you impress in the U19 team, you graduate to first class cricket, if you impress and show consistency in domestic cricket for atleast 2 years, you graduate to the A team, IPL, if you perform in the A team and IPL, you graduate to the national side.

The way India has developed its bench strength in the last 5 years should be a lesson for all teams world wide

 

[shamaan]

It's obvious Hassan Ali likes the slow low wickets we're their is enough reserve swing avaliable but nevertheless brilliant effort I hope he continues to work hard and gets the results for Pakistan.

 

[Farabi]

It's obvious Hassan Ali likes the slow low wickets we're their is enough reserve swing avaliable but nevertheless brilliant effort I hope he continues to work hard and gets the results for Pakistan.

Hassan Ali was always does better with the red ball vs the white ball. It remains to be seen how he does vs teams like NZ, Australia, England and India, particularly in LOI where he struggled on flat tracks when under the pump.

 

[shaz619]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hassan Ali's figures in the last 5 innings in Tests:<br><br>5/27<br>5/36<br>4/53<br>5/60<br>5/54<br><br>24 wickets at an average of 9.58<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/lzGie581wR">pic.twitter.com/lzGie581wR</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1391326544753221633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] what do you make of this superb performance so far from Ali ?

 

[MesonK]

Yawn, he is going to predictably lash out at Hasan for his Wagah Border antics against the Indians which for Lord Mamoon is blasphemy, how Rohit and Dhawan made him their ***** a d how Hasan Ali deserves no credit for feasting in an ordinary South African team and a minnow Zimbabwe team

He is an irrational extremist against anything Pakistani. Opinion giver, devoid of actual stats.

Same logic also applies to Amir vs Kohli ... Ever since Amir's ownage of Kohli in CT, Kohli is averaging like 29 in tests. Can we even call someone who averages 29 in tests for 2+ years a legend ? Did Bradman, Sachin, Hobbs also went through 20s averaging patches ? This whole logic of some player ending anothers career is stupid at best.

On topic, Hassan Ali might become first Pakistani quick, post Shoaib and Waqar to take 200 ODI and 200 Test wickets in his career and this will come at 24-26 like averages. Him and Shaheen will get there. Hassan Already has big tournament win to his credit.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Same logic also applies to Amir vs Kohli ... Ever since Amir's ownage of Kohli in CT, Kohli is averaging like 29 in tests. Can we even call someone who averages 29 in tests for 2+ years a legend ? Did Bradman, Sachin, Hobbs also went through 20s averaging patches ? This whole logic of some player ending anothers career is stupid at best.

Kohli averages 57 in tests since the Champions Trophy final.

He has declined a bit over the last two years though, but nowhere close to what you're implying. His test average over the last 2 years is 43.

 

[MesonK]

Kohli averages 57 in tests since the Champions Trophy final.

He has declined a bit over the last two years though, but nowhere close to what you're implying. His test average over the last 2 years is 43.

Kohli in last 10 tests since 2019 (since his 254 inning)

Matches/Runs/Average/Strike rate/100/50s

10/436/29.06/49.94/1/3

The great Kohli is averaging 29 for last 2 years since late 2019 ... in his last 10 tests. No Bradmans or Sachins, Hobbs had these elongated failure patches in their careers.

 

[Markhor]

I like the pathway in the Indian set up, if you impress in the U19 team, you graduate to first class cricket, if you impress and show consistency in domestic cricket for atleast 2 years, you graduate to the A team, IPL, if you perform in the A team and IPL, you graduate to the national side.

The way India has developed its bench strength in the last 5 years should be a lesson for all teams world wide

Pakistan hasn't had that pathway because we had a hotchpotch of departments, regions, grade cricket, district and junior cricket, and a club setup full of bogus teams that existed only on paper. A tours were (and still are) once in a blue moon.

It was so easy for cricketers to get lost in the system - hence why we debut so many 30+ year olds who were previously ignored.

Various administrations oversaw this pathetic system for decades that caused Pakistan cricket's downfall.

It's literally only now that the pathway has been restructured and streamlined: School--Club--City--U19--2nd XI--FC. Yet people are still moaning the current administration hasn't fixed 70 years of mismanagement in 3.

 

[AnonKB]

Misbah and Wasim are messing up Hasnain’s career and development. The guy has been travelling around with the squad warming benches and playing occasional games when he should be playing first class cricket.

I was shocked when I found out he’s only played two first class games - and that the last one he played was in 2018! It’s pretty ridiculous when you think about it. He’s someone that could be an excellent test option in the future with his pace.

 

[shamaan]

Hassan Ali was always does better with the red ball vs the white ball. It remains to be seen how he does vs teams like NZ, Australia, England and India, particularly in LOI where he struggled on flat tracks when under the pump.

Whilst I agree with you he still won the champions trophy for us.hes now fully fit hopefully he transfers the form into the odis and future tours

 

[Nasty Naz]

Kohli in last 10 tests since 2019 (since his 254 inning)

Matches/Runs/Average/Strike rate/100/50s

10/436/29.06/49.94/1/3

The great Kohli is averaging 29 for last 2 years since late 2019 ... in his last 10 tests. No Bradmans or Sachins, Hobbs had these elongated failure patches in their careers.

Tendulkar - 17 AVG in 2003 (5 matches - 9 innings) High score: 55. Averaged 91.50 the year after.
In year 2006 - 24.27 AVG in 8 matches - 12 innings. High score: 63. Averaged 55.42 the year after.

Every player has peaks and valleys.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Dont know whats happened to him in the Wt20 so far.

His average pace was below 130 today. He has been carried by his team mates, but it cant keep happening.

He brings so much to do the team when on song, and there is no replacement since Dahani is in the reserves.

Needs to be sorted out

 

[ExpressPacer]

Dont know whats happened to him in the Wt20 so far.

His average pace was below 130 today. He has been carried by his team mates, but it cant keep happening.

He brings so much to do the team when on song, and there is no replacement since Dahani is in the reserves.

Needs to be sorted out

His line and length is of the type that he is bound to get attacked but he is a wicket-taker.

However, I'm worried that you suggest his pace was under 130 KPH on average. Was this because of slower balls and was he bowling faster deliveries or were there none over 140? He maintained decent pace vs India.

This could suggest he's carrying a niggle or an injury which is not good news because he's one of our best bowlers because the man takes wickets.

 

[realitygaf]

Dont know whats happened to him in the Wt20 so far.

His average pace was below 130 today. He has been carried by his team mates, but it cant keep happening.

He brings so much to do the team when on song, and there is no replacement since Dahani is in the reserves.

Needs to be sorted out

He got hit on the knee in a National t20 game and was bowling and hobbling instead of going off the field . Babar kept bowling him. He hasn’t been effective ever since