Hate speech on social media

[Ronaldo7]

I see a lot of hate speech on YouTube all the time usually by the viewers. Hatred towards Muslims, Christian, Blacks and Whites etc. Is pretty common but it's not usually the uploader who's doing it

I came across a channel which I'm surprised is still standing.

This guy makes videos on Islam and makes fun out of it.

Free speech is allowed on YouTube but this guy goes overboard.
Look at this profile picture. I'm seriously disgusted with this channel. But what makes this 100x worse is the comments. It's filled with INDIANS (no surprise) and white supremacists. Most of the comments are truly disgusting. TRULY DISGUSTING. I saw a comment saying that the Christchurch terror attack should happen again. Like What is going here??

YouTube in 2019 really went after youtubers who were Hatemongers

Here is an article on the YouTube rules:

https://support.google.com/youtube/a...01939?hl=en-GB


Few examples of why CAN NOT BE be said:
'[Person with attributes noted above] is the **** of the earth.''

[People with attributes noted above] are a disease.''
[People with attributes noted above] are less intelligent than us because their brains are smaller.''
"Our existence is threatened by [group with any of the attributes noted above], so we should drive them out at every chance we get.''
[Group with any of the attributes noted above] has an agenda to run the world and get rid of us.''

"[Attribute noted above] is just a form of mental illness that needs to be cured."

^
This Apostate keeps on calling Islam a mental disease and says that it should be eradicated. This is NOT allowed according to Youtube's own rules.

The comments are a lot worse.
This channel is like a free for all, for all the Islamophobes and I can't say that I'm surprised that there are so many Indians on there. So many Sanghis are on that channel and comment offensive stuff about Islam but nothing is done against them. This isn't Free speech.


I don't understand why YouTube hasn't done anything about this yet.

At least disable the comments so these Islamophobes can't talk **.

There are channels who criticise Islam but they work WITHIN THE RULES. They don't troll any religion. But this guy is just OTT.

I've reported this channel and have asked YouTube to AT LEAST disable the comments.

All of you should report this channel too and ask Youtube to at least disable the comments so this guy can't spread his gall so easily.

 

[Itachi]

have you been living under the cave or what?

goto any gaming channel, or even twitch and watch what are the languages that are thrown to the people of any color/race/age. The thing is, its better to leave it the way it is because this is something you can't control via technology. If you don't like the content or the comments, simply don't watch it.

 

[MenInG]

Do not post any examples of hate speech in a Youtube video etc on this thread or anywhere on PP.

 

[WebGuru]

I am noticing a similar pattern on Twitter (disgusting tweets and thn disgusting comments under those tweets using the free speech umbrella). This so called freedom of speech is only making things worse.

 

[Ronaldo7]

have you been living under the cave or what?

goto any gaming channel, or even twitch and watch what are the languages that are thrown to the people of any color/race/age. The thing is, its better to leave it the way it is because this is something you can't control via technology. If you don't like the content or the comments, simply don't watch it.

Did you actually read what I wrote or just got angry and replied??

I've given examples of what is allowed and what is not.

YouTube doesn't allow it. So action should be taken.

If I don't watch it, it doesn't mean It's not still being streamed to millions.

This quote says what I'm trying to say perfectly:

"Closing your eyes isn't going to change anything. Nothing's going to disappear just because you can't see what's going on. In fact, things will even be worse the next time you open your eyes. That's the kind of world we live in. Keep your eyes wide open. Only a coward closes his eyes. Closing your eyes and plugging up your ears won't make time stand still."

 

[Ronaldo7]

I am noticing a similar pattern on Twitter (disgusting tweets and thn disgusting comments under those tweets using the free speech umbrella). This so called freedom of speech is only making things worse.

Exactly.

People say whatever they want, they themselves know it is wrong and then use the phrase "freedom of speech" to promote their Ill fated narrative.

 

[Itachi]

Did you actually read what I write or just got angry and replied??

I've given examples of what is allowed and what is not.

YouTube doesn't allow it. So action should be taken.

If I don't watch it, it doesn't mean It's not still being streamed to millions.

This quote says what I'm trying to say perfectly:

"Closing your eyes isn't going to change anything. Nothing's going to disappear just because you can't see what's going on. In fact, things will even be worse the next time you open your eyes. That's the kind of world we live in. Keep your eyes wide open. Only a coward closes his eyes. Closing your eyes and plugging up your ears won't make time stand still."

Do you think youtube, twitch or any other streaming platforms aren't aware of these issues?

(btw, i actually agreed with you and not the other way)

but you even with complicated alogrithm, you can't weed such types of posts. And ignoring doesn't mean closing the eyes. There were multiple forums on hate speech but they died because people simply started to ignore those.

Any hate platforms feeds on just one factor.... more hate. Doesn't matter this hate is for or against. You are feeding it even more because people, who weren't even aware of such channels, now will watch those because you mentioned. In the end, guess who makes the profit?

 

[Ronaldo7]

Do you think youtube, twitch or any other streaming platforms aren't aware of these issues?

(btw, i actually agreed with you and not the other way)

but you even with complicated alogrithm, you can't weed such types of posts. And ignoring doesn't mean closing the eyes. There were multiple forums on hate speech but they died because people simply started to ignore those.

Any hate platforms feeds on just one factor.... more hate. Doesn't matter this hate is for or against. You are feeding it even more because people, who weren't even aware of such channels, now will watch those because you mentioned. In the end, guess who makes the profit?

You can use that example for literally anything. If you want people to be aware of something, you will have to share the content yourself first and then tell others that it's wrong.

This may mean a hate channel will get 10 followers because I shared their content but they'll also get 100 haters too.

 

[troodon]

People who cannot handle any sort of criticism resort to insults of the worst kind.

Some even use swear words as part of their regular speech.

 

[Itachi]

You can use that example for literally anything. If you want people to be aware of something, you will have to share the content yourself first and then tell others that it's wrong.

This may mean a hate channel will get 10 followers because I shared their content but they'll also get 100 haters too.

you are out of touch with the streaming platform. It doesn't matter people are loving or hating the videos. As long as view counts increases, it is all profit for the uploader. Be it viral in good or the bad way, any publicity is a good publicity in these cases.

Not only those 10 followers but those 100 haters will also watch those videos too. In the end, it is all that counts. 110 views in the above case.

 

[Ronaldo7]

you are out of touch with the streaming platform. It doesn't matter people are loving or hating the videos. As long as view counts increases, it is all profit for the uploader. Be it viral in good or the bad way, any publicity is a good publicity in these cases.

Not only those 10 followers but those 100 haters will also watch those videos too. In the end, it is all that counts. 110 views in the above case.

You think I don't know now about these platforms?
I used to make videos and actually got a good amount of views at one time too.

Channels which promote hate speech will make money anyways whether anyone criticises them or not.
Just because you fead that you're gonna give them a few extra views, it doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise them

 

[Itachi]

You think I don't know now about these platforms?
I used to make videos and actually got a good amount of views at one time too.

Channels which promote hate speech will make money anyways whether anyone criticises them or not.
Just because you fead that you're gonna give them a few extra views, it doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise them

As i said, making it viral makes the situation worse than better. An unknown uploader could gain millions of follower/ hater in a night if his/her videos go viral. If you will dig deeper, you will find even worse cases in multiple platforms but they have very small audience. Guess what can boost their infleunce?

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

have you been living under the cave or what?

goto any gaming channel, or even twitch and watch what are the languages that are thrown to the people of any color/race/age. The thing is, its better to leave it the way it is because this is something you can't control via technology. If you don't like the content or the comments, simply don't watch it.

I get it but we are absolving tech giants of any responsibility here. There is a difference between free speech and hate speech . The same tech giants crack down on antisemitism like their life depends on it . I can understand if such things are being shared of some far off corners of the internet where a bunch of basement dwellers are spewing hate .This is is youtube we are talking about . A video sharing company that is owned by Google!

 

[Itachi]

I get it but we are absolving tech giants of any responsibility here. There is a difference between free speech and hate speech . The same tech giants crack down on antisemitism like their life depends on it . I can understand if such things are being shared of some far off corners of the internet where a bunch of basement dwellers are spewing hate .This is is youtube we are talking about . A video sharing company that is owned by Google!

youtube doesn't have enough employees to monitor over each and every comments. They probably get millions of reports each day and realistically speaking, that isn't possible for an organization with few thousand employees of which, many have no relation with the contents at all.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

youtube doesn't have enough employees to monitor over each and every comments. They probably get millions of reports each day and realistically speaking, that isn't possible for an organization with few thousand employees of which, many have no relation with the contents at all.

Its about the bottom line more than anything, these corporations want to do teh minimum thats required of them by the law .All it takes from them is to demonetize some big names channels when they cross a line . Doesn't even have to be permanent . It will send a clear message to others and once it starts eating into their money they will be more careful . Its not a perfect solution but it works more times than not . Lets also not forget that GOOGLE can easily take care of this by automating this .

 

[PakLFC]

We all know such channels exist. You must be living in a cave if you thought such formsof abuse is new. Simply ignore these channels, easy. Allah will have the final say with these people but know that many are simply fake ex-Muslims or whatever they claim to be.

 

[Tubs]

I see a lot of hate speech on YouTube all the time usually by the viewers. Hatred towards Muslims, Christian, Blacks and Whites etc. Is pretty common but it's not usually the uploader who's doing it

I came across a channel which I'm surprised is still standing.

This guy makes videos on Islam and makes fun out of it.

Free speech is allowed on YouTube but this guy goes overboard.
Look at this profile picture. I'm seriously disgusted with this channel. But what makes this 100x worse is the comments. It's filled with INDIANS (no surprise) and white supremacists. Most of the comments are truly disgusting. TRULY DISGUSTING. I saw a comment saying that the Christchurch terror attack should happen again. Like What is going here??

YouTube in 2019 really went after youtubers who were Hatemongers

Here is an article on the YouTube rules:

https://support.google.com/youtube/a...01939?hl=en-GB


Few examples of why CAN NOT BE be said:
'[Person with attributes noted above] is the **** of the earth.''

[People with attributes noted above] are a disease.''
[People with attributes noted above] are less intelligent than us because their brains are smaller.''
"Our existence is threatened by [group with any of the attributes noted above], so we should drive them out at every chance we get.''
[Group with any of the attributes noted above] has an agenda to run the world and get rid of us.''

"[Attribute noted above] is just a form of mental illness that needs to be cured."

^
This Apostate keeps on calling Islam a mental disease and says that it should be eradicated. This is NOT allowed according to Youtube's own rules.

The comments are a lot worse.
This channel is like a free for all, for all the Islamophobes and I can't say that I'm surprised that there are so many Indians on there. So many Sanghis are on that channel and comment offensive stuff about Islam but nothing is done against them. This isn't Free speech.


I don't understand why YouTube hasn't done anything about this yet.

At least disable the comments so these Islamophobes can't talk **.

There are channels who criticise Islam but they work WITHIN THE RULES. They don't troll any religion. But this guy is just OTT.

I've reported this channel and have asked YouTube to AT LEAST disable the comments.

All of you should report this channel too and ask Youtube to at least disable the comments so this guy can't spread his gall so easily.

If by 'hate speech' you mean videos which are inciting violence, then yes, they shouldn't be on there and you should report them. If you mean videos which you find offensive, that isn't hate speech, it's free speech. Islam can be criticised and mocked. While it can be in poor taste and offensive, it is free speech and should be allowed.

We all know such channels exist. You must be living in a cave if you thought such formsof abuse is new. Simply ignore these channels, easy. Allah will have the final say with these people but know that many are simply fake ex-Muslims or whatever they claim to be.

What are fake 'ex-Muslims'? This criticism is so silly. Can't you accept that some people have come to the conclusion that the burden of proof for Islam (or any other religion) being true hasn't been met?

 

[Ronaldo7]

If by 'hate speech' you mean videos which are inciting violence, then yes, they shouldn't be on there and you should report them. If you mean videos which you find offensive, that isn't hate speech, it's free speech. Islam can be criticised and mocked. While it can be in poor taste and offensive, it is free speech and should be allowed.



What are fake 'ex-Muslims'? This criticism is so silly. Can't you accept that some people have come to the conclusion that the burden of proof for Islam (or any other religion) being true hasn't been met?

‘’ There are channels which criticise Islam but they work within the rules’’

I have differentiated the two already

 

[PakLFC]

If by 'hate speech' you mean videos which are inciting violence, then yes, they shouldn't be on there and you should report them. If you mean videos which you find offensive, that isn't hate speech, it's free speech. Islam can be criticised and mocked. While it can be in poor taste and offensive, it is free speech and should be allowed.



What are fake 'ex-Muslims'? This criticism is so silly. Can't you accept that some people have come to the conclusion that the burden of proof for Islam (or any other religion) being true hasn't been met?

Fake ex-Muslim's are those who were never Muslim in the first place but pretend to be so. I have no problem with apostates but why do they then feel the need to insult their former faith knowing full well that there are still 2 billion believers in Islam? There is a massive difference between textual criticism/practises of any faith and mocking a belief for the sake of upsetting people.People like you have no idea of such things. The hypocrisy is that people can be jailed for questioning the holocaust so save your nonsense for zombies!

 

[sindhiboy]

Welcome to the internet, where every right wing populist has an urge to shove his ignorance disguised as pseudo intellectual diarrhea

 

[PakLFC]

Welcome to the internet, where every right wing populist has an urge to shove his ignorance disguised as pseudo intellectual diarrhea

Are you suggesting that defending Islam has become right wing fanaticism?

 

[Itachi]

Are you suggesting that defending Islam has become right wing fanaticism?

Read again.

 

[Tubs]

‘’ There are channels which criticise Islam but they work within the rules’’

I have differentiated the two already

Right, but mocking Islam is still free speech. If someone said to attack Muslims, however, that is illegal and should never be tolerated.

 

[Tubs]

Fake ex-Muslim's are those who were never Muslim in the first place but pretend to be so. I have no problem with apostates but why do they then feel the need to insult their former faith knowing full well that there are still 2 billion believers in Islam? There is a massive difference between textual criticism/practises of any faith and mocking a belief for the sake of upsetting people.People like you have no idea of such things. The hypocrisy is that people can be jailed for questioning the holocaust so save your nonsense for zombies!

You can't really verify who are 'fake' though. Many ex-Muslims are critical about Islam because there are certain hadith which suggest killing apostates is allowed, for example. Regardless, anyone is allowed to criticise any ideology, no matter how many people believe it. I also support the right for people to say things that offend me, as that's free speech.

I agree that someone should never be put in jail for questioning the holocaust. While it is certainly a historic fact, someone should never be put in jail for denying it. Many people are also reprimanded for questioning the legitimacy of the 6 million count, which is again, ridiculous. Whether they are inquiring for inquisitive reasons, or being purposefully inflammatory, they shouldn't face legal repercussion.


May I also say that I find it distasteful to just make videos about Islam/anything else just for the sake of upsetting people, however I support their right to do it even though it isn't my cup of tea. I support your right to say homosexuals are sinful, for example, even if I don't believe that (I actually think it's a disgusting mindset to have).

 

[Ronaldo7]

Right, but mocking Islam is still free speech. If someone said to attack Muslims, however, that is illegal and should never be tolerated.

Mate.

I've given proof that youtube doesn't allow comments such as 'this and that is a disease and should be eradicated'.

Even if it's only referring to the religion it's still not allowed

 

[PakLFC]

Read again.

I did. Make your point clearer.

 

[sweep_shot]

I used to visit 4Chan and 8Chan out of curiousity. YouTube is quite civilized compared to those places.

I would love to see social media having no offensive post but we all know that's not practical. There are always some idiots who would write offensive things.

 

[PakLFC]

You can't really verify who are 'fake' though. Many ex-Muslims are critical about Islam because there are certain hadith which suggest killing apostates is allowed, for example. Regardless, anyone is allowed to criticise any ideology, no matter how many people believe it. I also support the right for people to say things that offend me, as that's free speech.

I agree that someone should never be put in jail for questioning the holocaust. While it is certainly a historic fact, someone should never be put in jail for denying it. Many people are also reprimanded for questioning the legitimacy of the 6 million count, which is again, ridiculous. Whether they are inquiring for inquisitive reasons, or being purposefully inflammatory, they shouldn't face legal repercussion.


May I also say that I find it distasteful to just make videos about Islam/anything else just for the sake of upsetting people, however I support their right to do it even though it isn't my cup of tea. I support your right to say homosexuals are sinful, for example, even if I don't believe that (I actually think it's a disgusting mindset to have).

But there are still fake ones who exist. I have no problem with textual criticism at all, it is when they start insulting the Prophet and his companions that upsets believers. I see, so you are okay with people insulting your parents vy calling them names as well under the banner of free speech?

If you admit that questioning the holocaust should be allowed it still does not mean insulting religious figures should be tolerated. This is because Hitler did not have a problem with Judaism rather Jewish people and their practises. I hate Hindutva yet refuse to insult Hindu God's and Goddesses under the garb of free speech. I do not gain anything by insulting a belief system at all.

The intention of Islam haters is not to educate people rather to upset them. They are not like many Christian missionaries who question Islamic teachings in an intellectual and mature manner rather are like school kids who fight with each other in the playground. It is not questioning rather the insult that upsets people like me. Someone can easily say attacking them physically is also freedom as well! There has to be a line that can not be crossed which everyone can see.

 

[Tubs]

But there are still fake ones who exist. I have no problem with textual criticism at all, it is when they start insulting the Prophet and his companions that upsets believers. I see, so you are okay with people insulting your parents vy calling them names as well under the banner of free speech?

If you admit that questioning the holocaust should be allowed it still does not mean insulting religious figures should be tolerated. This is because Hitler did not have a problem with Judaism rather Jewish people and their practises. I hate Hindutva yet refuse to insult Hindu God's and Goddesses under the garb of free speech. I do not gain anything by insulting a belief system at all.

The intention of Islam haters is not to educate people rather to upset them. They are not like many Christian missionaries who question Islamic teachings in an intellectual and mature manner rather are like school kids who fight with each other in the playground. It is not questioning rather the insult that upsets people like me. Someone can easily say attacking them physically is also freedom as well! There has to be a line that can not be crossed which everyone can see.

That is freedom of speech, yes, but it may border on harassment. Also, my parents aren't public figures but Muhammad obviously is. And it is completely okay to insult Muhammad. The whole 'we love him more than our parents thing' means nothing in the face of free speech.

You obviously don't understand free speech. You can insult religious figures. If you don't want to, fine, but it is allowed. I myself wouldn't either as I believe it's rude (perhaps I would in response to someone calling me an atheist without morals or whatever, but it would be in retaliation- though being vindictive isn't good).

Yes, and there are Christian missionaries who will call Islam barbaric and whatever. They are allowed to. Someone else can call the trinity ridiculous, they're allowed to. Yes, people will make fun of an ideology just to be rude, oh well? Move on. It's not that big of a deal. Are you saying that religious people are so fickle that they can't ignore people being rude about their beliefs? You can't smuggle in physical assault when we're on about free speech to make a 'point'.

 

[Tubs]

Mate.

I've given proof that youtube doesn't allow comments such as 'this and that is a disease and should be eradicated'.

Even if it's only referring to the religion it's still not allowed

Oh, sure, if someone said 'eradicate religion x' that is surely an incitement to violence. I will say that in YT's defence, it is incredibly hard to police every comment, so many will slip through the cracks. There's also the fact that it may be seen as less bad as it's not a public figure calling for it, just an anonymous nobody commenting on a video. Those comments should certainly be reported, but I wouldn't be surprised if many slip through the cracks- YT comments are a cesspit.

My initial comment was in regards to actual videos on YouTube. If someone said 'Islam should be eradicated' in the video, yes, that should 100% be removed. Obviously, saying 'Islam is a barbaric ideology', for example, is free speech and should be allowed.

 

[PakLFC]

That is freedom of speech, yes, but it may border on harassment. Also, my parents aren't public figures but Muhammad obviously is. And it is completely okay to insult Muhammad. The whole 'we love him more than our parents thing' means nothing in the face of free speech.

You obviously don't understand free speech. You can insult religious figures. If you don't want to, fine, but it is allowed. I myself wouldn't either as I believe it's rude (perhaps I would in response to someone calling me an atheist without morals or whatever, but it would be in retaliation- though being vindictive isn't good).

Yes, and there are Christian missionaries who will call Islam barbaric and whatever. They are allowed to. Someone else can call the trinity ridiculous, they're allowed to. Yes, people will make fun of an ideology just to be rude, oh well? Move on. It's not that big of a deal. Are you saying that religious people are so fickle that they can't ignore people being rude about their beliefs? You can't smuggle in physical assault when we're on about free speech to make a 'point'.

No way should any religious figure be attacked by anyone. Well, public figures like politicians are parents are well most of time so your point does not stand. What you are saying is that politicians should not be attacked coz they are parents but religious figures can be under this freedom of speech thing you are n about. That we love the Prophet of Allah more then our parents means everything to Muslim people, there will always be someone who takes violent action when some religious figure is insulted.

No in Islam attacking religious figures including non-Muslim ones is disallowed, this is what partly makes me a believer in Islam. You can be whatever you want, don't use being an atheist as a reason to attack any religious figure for the sake of scoring points. I being a Muslim reject all figures Sikh's consider being divinely inspired yet it does not allow me to insult them for the sake of upsetting their community. This coz I want to be a good person with some class and personality. See if you insult religious figures then even being an atheist others will find ways of upsetting you by attacking your family or other things you hold dear. Being an atheist does not mean you can't be hurt one way or another.

Once again I don't believe in personal attacks on religious figures who I never met. Now if Christian's consider it acceptable to attack Islam then they have no one to blame if some nutcase physically attacks them. If a person keeps provoking another over any issues then there will eventually be a reaction. If you keep calling a person "ugly" or "fatty" then sooner or later the victim to your bullying will explode. Yes any person who believes in any God will eventually lose patience when you attack their faith just to upset them. He will only be moving towards your face pal so better to avoid it. When someone mocks your family this freedom of speech thing you are on about will not last five minutes!

 

[PakLFC]

So if an atheist attacks religious figures then for example be prepared to see your parents being victims of abuse as well. This will also be "freedom of speech" that will have you howling and crying like a baby in no time. Atheists are not exempt from being abused or having their feelings hurt as well one way or another. Atheists only abuse religious figures to feel powerful and hurt believers of any faith.

 

[Tubs]

Stop being ridiculous. Just because you revere someone as a prophet, it doesn't mean others have to respect them. Again, I don't advocate being inflammatory for no reason, but it is allowed. The parent analogy doesn't hold, no one cares if I say I love Gilgamesh more than my parents, they are allowed to criticise his historicity, claims to divinity, and whatever else. You saying that there will always be violence if theists feelings are hurt is really telling- you're not making a good case for yourself.

Oooh, a negative comment about atheists? What happened to the complete and utter respect for beliefs (or lack thereof)? See what I mean? Someone may find that incredibly offensive, but you still do it. I support your right to say it, and to say I'm a godless heathen who has no morals, or whatever. Of course, I will challenge you on it but I'd never silence you. If you can't understand the utility of free speech, then there's no point. But reading your signature, I shouldn't expect rationality from you.

 

[Itachi]

lots of hate against athiest to be honest. Here's the issue.

If a religious person is spreading his ideology, it's stated as "spreading love and the right path of life".

If an athiest clears his point of view, "you are insulting our religion, God etc...."

Ofcourse there will be athiest who will try to shove down their opinion. But there will be many who won't. It is rediculous to paint all the same.

It's like saying, if a terrorist who happens to be a muslim who is involved in violence, then all the muslims are violent in nature. Do you guys (who have hatred for athiest) realize how rediculous it sounds?

 

[imrankhannsu]

There will always be vile comments on social media. Thats part of life. One has to learn to ignore random thoughts by random and move on.

 

[PakLFC]

Stop being ridiculous. Just because you revere someone as a prophet, it doesn't mean others have to respect them. Again, I don't advocate being inflammatory for no reason, but it is allowed. The parent analogy doesn't hold, no one cares if I say I love Gilgamesh more than my parents, they are allowed to criticise his historicity, claims to divinity, and whatever else. You saying that there will always be violence if theists feelings are hurt is really telling- you're not making a good case for yourself.

Oooh, a negative comment about atheists? What happened to the complete and utter respect for beliefs (or lack thereof)? See what I mean? Someone may find that incredibly offensive, but you still do it. I support your right to say it, and to say I'm a godless heathen who has no morals, or whatever. Of course, I will challenge you on it but I'd never silence you. If you can't understand the utility of free speech, then there's no point. But reading your signature, I shouldn't expect rationality from you.

Of course you do not have to accept them as Prophets but that does not give you the right to abuse them for the sake of upsetting people. I am afraid it does hold...you can not even verbally abuse a police officer without being tanked by him!! You will be on your knee's in no time if someone verbally attacked your parents regardless of what or what no your belief is. Well of course if you keep attacking any belief system then there will be a response from believers.

The thing is that atheists think they are immune to being offended. It is similar to the school bully who upsets vulnerable students just to get a kick and to feel powerful. This is exactly how atheists think that we can upset believers of any faith without them reciprocating when this is not true at all! I still do what? You've lost me! My point is simple that you can be an atheist and disagree with all religions, water of my back. You can disagree with practises but to mock religious figures when you have never met any of them is going to far. When you do not understand the circumstances they lived in but feel the right to abuse them is childish and immature. How do I know what morals you don't or do have? I am glad you have read my signature as well for surely you know I won't accept abuse of Islam even if it means getting banned from any forum.

This free speech you are on about has limits as I said above harass a policeman and he'll put you in your place

 

[Itachi]

Of course you do not have to accept them as Prophets but that does not give you the right to abuse them for the sake of upsetting people. I am afraid it does hold...you can not even verbally abuse a police officer without being tanked by him!! You will be on your knee's in no time if someone verbally attacked your parents regardless of what or what no your belief is. Well of course if you keep attacking any belief system then there will be a response from believers.

The thing is that atheists think they are immune to being offended. It is similar to the school bully who upsets vulnerable students just to get a kick and to feel powerful. This is exactly how atheists think that we can upset believers of any faith without them reciprocating when this is not true at all! I still do what? You've lost me! My point is simple that you can be an atheist and disagree with all religions, water of my back. You can disagree with practises but to mock religious figures when you have never met any of them is going to far. When you do not understand the circumstances they lived in but feel the right to abuse them is childish and immature. How do I know what morals you don't or do have? I am glad you have read my signature as well for surely you know I won't accept abuse of Islam even if it means getting banned from any forum.

This free speech you are on about has limits as I said above harass a policeman and he'll put you in your place

The term "abuse" is relative. What is "abuse" in your eyes could be "criticism" from another. What you are doing here is, instead of taking your standing point as relative, you are declaring it as the absolute truth and hence all the deduction forth. But when your own position is already relative to some set of rules, dogma set by religion, you fail to grasp any other entity that are outside of it.

 

[PakLFC]

The term "abuse" is relative. What is "abuse" in your eyes could be "criticism" from another. What you are doing here is, instead of taking your standing point as relative, you are declaring it as the absolute truth and hence all the deduction forth. But when your own position is already relative to some set of rules, dogma set by religion, you fail to grasp any other entity that are outside of it.

I am saying that human feelings....not only Muslim ones are not to be attacked for the sake of feeling powerful. Now criticism is one things as I said I have no problem when people disagree with religious practises but when you start drawing offensive cartoons of the Prophet of Allah then it is going too far! Question is why do that when you know it will upset an entire community? I am afraid you have completely lost me with "

"But when your own position is already relative to some set of rules, dogma set by religion, you fail to grasp any other entity that are outside of it." What you on about with this absurd statement? I fully realise that there are other religions as well and atheists. If I do not offend their belief then am fully entitled to expect the same!

 

[Tubs]

Of course you do not have to accept them as Prophets but that does not give you the right to abuse them for the sake of upsetting people. I am afraid it does hold...you can not even verbally abuse a police officer without being tanked by him!! You will be on your knee's in no time if someone verbally attacked your parents regardless of what or what no your belief is. Well of course if you keep attacking any belief system then there will be a response from believers.

The thing is that atheists think they are immune to being offended. It is similar to the school bully who upsets vulnerable students just to get a kick and to feel powerful. This is exactly how atheists think that we can upset believers of any faith without them reciprocating when this is not true at all! I still do what? You've lost me! My point is simple that you can be an atheist and disagree with all religions, water of my back. You can disagree with practises but to mock religious figures when you have never met any of them is going to far. When you do not understand the circumstances they lived in but feel the right to abuse them is childish and immature. How do I know what morals you don't or do have? I am glad you have read my signature as well for surely you know I won't accept abuse of Islam even if it means getting banned from any forum.

This free speech you are on about has limits as I said above harass a policeman and he'll put you in your place

As the poster below said, don't use the word 'abuse' or 'harassment' when talking about free speech as they're not example of that. Muhammad, for example, can be called any disparaging comment, and it should be protected by law as it's free speech. And your beliefs about a 'response' for attacking a belief system is very interesting...

You can disparage atheists all you want, I honestly don't care as it's your free speech, even if I was offended. Wait, hang on, so people can't be offensive to religious figures they've never met, but you can love them more than your parents even though you haven't met? You've lost me now! You say that I don't understand the circumstances of their life to invalidate any criticism I may have of them, but surely you don't understand their circumstances either as you're not from their region or time period. These surface-level arguments hold no weight. Cute, you really do believe your cringey signature. Easy to be hard behind a keyboard though.

Again, harassment isn't speech, it's abuse, which is a crime. You have made no points, only mental backflips to try and justify shutting down any criticism of your religion because you're so insecure.

 

[Itachi]

If I do not offend their belief then am fully entitled to expect the same!

This where the issue lies. You aren't "entitled". It's an "expectation".

If you "care" about someone, then you "expect" that, that same person will care for you the same way. But it is what it is. It's an expectation. It may not hold true and that person may not care about you the same way you do. Just because you care, it doesn't give you entitlement.

Life doesn't run in balance mode. Just because you give respect, that doesn't give the entitlement. You "earn" the respect.

And even if you feel it is unfair, you can't control what is beyond your control. If someone is being abusive, then it will be a crime but the parameters of laws will vary from place to place. What is blasphemy in an islamic country, could be acceptable by a non islamic country. In that case, they won't be breaking the law and hence, they haven't committed a crime.

 

[PakLFC]

As the poster below said, don't use the word 'abuse' or 'harassment' when talking about free speech as they're not example of that. Muhammad, for example, can be called any disparaging comment, and it should be protected by law as it's free speech. And your beliefs about a 'response' for attacking a belief system is very interesting...

You can disparage atheists all you want, I honestly don't care as it's your free speech, even if I was offended. Wait, hang on, so people can't be offensive to religious figures they've never met, but you can love them more than your parents even though you haven't met? You've lost me now! You say that I don't understand the circumstances of their life to invalidate any criticism I may have of them, but surely you don't understand their circumstances either as you're not from their region or time period. These surface-level arguments hold no weight. Cute, you really do believe your cringey signature. Easy to be hard behind a keyboard though.

Again, harassment isn't speech, it's abuse, which is a crime. You have made no points, only mental backflips to try and justify shutting down any criticism of your religion because you're so insecure.

Harassment is exactly what you people do by upsetting people. We all know what happened when cartoons of the Prophet were drawn and the reaction that followed. Now you will say that the reaction was free expression yet it did get the job done. The west got the message that such blasphemy will not be tolerated. Hey, why don't you try insulting the Prophet on this website then call it free speech?

You see loving anyone does not cause offence where as insulting does, that is the difference. I do understand the circumstance through Islamic teachings hence my love for the Prophet of Allah. Equally, I may disagree with other religious figures yet never insult them for the sake of one-upmanship. The question again is why do you want to offend people by insulting their religious figures? The Hindu's were furious some years back when someone drew pictures of their God's and Goddesses on training shoes as were the Sikh's when a bulldog was shown with a turban on his head.

Same to you pal that it is easy for you to talk tough by saying you have the right to insult Muhammad and religious figures! Let me see you mocking the Prophet of Islam in front of a believing Muslim? If a believer finds drawings as abuse then that is how he see's it. Just coz you have no faith does not give you the right to insult other religious figures by drawing cartoons of them. You can call it whatever you want, people of faith have the right to attack you should you deliberately hurt their feelings. If attacking blasphemous cartoons make me and others insecure in your ignorance then so be it.

 

[PakLFC]

This where the issue lies. You aren't "entitled". It's an "expectation".

If you "care" about someone, then you "expect" that, that same person will care for you the same way. But it is what it is. It's an expectation. It may not hold true and that person may not care about you the same way you do. Just because you care, it doesn't give you entitlement.

Life doesn't run in balance mode. Just because you give respect, that doesn't give the entitlement. You "earn" the respect.

And even if you feel it is unfair, you can't control what is beyond your control. If someone is being abusive, then it will be a crime but the parameters of laws will vary from place to place. What is blasphemy in an islamic country, could be acceptable by a non islamic country. In that case, they won't be breaking the law and hence, they haven't committed a crime.

Whatever you call it is irrelevant. The point is that if you abuse the Prophet of 2 billion people then there will be a reaction. This reaction will vary according to how that person see's it like some will go completely berserk whilst others will not. I am not saying I'll react in a violent way...what I may do is make remarks against what you consider as being a crucial part of your life.

Now what you are on about is very different to what is the subject here. I am someone who always stands up for what he believes in no matter what others think or say. Back to the subject that even on this website the mod's will take action against you if you insult any religious figure, go ahead try it then see the reaction. Most work places do not allow this kind of behaviour either so your "freedom of speech" nonsense is a myth. It is controlled on this very website for starters so what have you been drinking? That Dutch politician who insulted the Prophet of Allah got the message as well when all Dutch products where thrown out in Muslim countries, since then he has not done such a thing again.

By the way I do not agree with many blasphemy laws in Muslim countries either.

 

[PakLFC]

I can prove right here that so called freedom of speech has limits. Just make a blasphemous comment about any religious figure by posting offensive content and I'll report you! There goes your freedom of speech! Abuse a policeman on duty under your "freedom of speech" belief and he'll take care of you behind bars

 

[Tubs]

Harassment is exactly what you people do by upsetting people. We all know what happened when cartoons of the Prophet were drawn and the reaction that followed. Now you will say that the reaction was free expression yet it did get the job done. The west got the message that such blasphemy will not be tolerated. Hey, why don't you try insulting the Prophet on this website then call it free speech?

You see loving anyone does not cause offence where as insulting does, that is the difference. I do understand the circumstance through Islamic teachings hence my love for the Prophet of Allah. Equally, I may disagree with other religious figures yet never insult them for the sake of one-upmanship. The question again is why do you want to offend people by insulting their religious figures? The Hindu's were furious some years back when someone drew pictures of their God's and Goddesses on training shoes as were the Sikh's when a bulldog was shown with a turban on his head.

Same to you pal that it is easy for you to talk tough by saying you have the right to insult Muhammad and religious figures! Let me see you mocking the Prophet of Islam in front of a believing Muslim? If a believer finds drawings as abuse then that is how he see's it. Just coz you have no faith does not give you the right to insult other religious figures by drawing cartoons of them. You can call it whatever you want, people of faith have the right to attack you should you deliberately hurt their feelings. If attacking blasphemous cartoons make me and others insecure in your ignorance then so be it.

Quite disgusting that you support people being killed for some drawings. And no, upsetting people isn't harassment. Saying 'Muhammad was a terrible person' is not harassment, it is free speech. I don't try to go around offending people, so I won't insult Muhammad here. I also would rather not get banned. However, what would really happen if I did? People would get angry at me over the internet, whatever would I do!?!

Again, I don't advocate being rude and inflammatory for no reason. I would not insult Muhammad, Vishnu, Guru Nanak, or whoever just to upset people as I'm not a rude person. However, if someone did mock them, they are allowed, it just is a rude thing to do.

When Muslims have given me grief for being an apostate, I have made disparaging remarks about Muhammad after they claimed he was perfect. I'm not saying that makes me a hard guy, but I have made those comments before. Why don't you publicly proclaim your support for the Charlie Hebdo shooters? So if I make fun of Muhammad, you are allowed to physically assault me? You are so incredibly fickle it's hilarious.

 

[Tubs]

I can prove right here that so called freedom of speech has limits. Just make a blasphemous comment about any religious figure by posting offensive content and I'll report you! There goes your freedom of speech! Abuse a policeman on duty under your "freedom of speech" belief and he'll take care of you behind bars

False equivalency. Forums have rules and terms of service, violate them and it's a bannable offence. I know you think you made a great point there, I'm sorry to ruin it for you.

Again with the 'assault' thing. That's not speech. Besides, the only one advocating assaulting people is you if people's feelings get hurt.

 

[Itachi]

Whatever you call it is irrelevant. The point is that if you abuse the Prophet of 2 billion people then there will be a reaction. This reaction will vary according to how that person see's it like some will go completely berserk whilst others will not. I am not saying I'll react in a violent way...what I may do is make remarks against what you consider as being a crucial part of your life.

of course they will be angry. And anger is a part of life. Hypocrisy will be, if that person, who stated negative remarks about the prophet will complain for objections. He isnt entitled to be above criticism either.

Now what you are on about is very different to what is the subject here. I am someone who always stands up for what he believes in no matter what others think or say. Back to the subject that even on this website the mod's will take action against you if you insult any religious figure, go ahead try it then see the reaction. Most work places do not allow this kind of behaviour either so your "freedom of speech" nonsense is a myth. It is controlled on this very website for starters so what have you been drinking? That Dutch politician who insulted the Prophet of Allah got the message as well when all Dutch products where thrown out in Muslim countries, since then he has not done such a thing again.

By the way I do not agree with many blasphemy laws in Muslim countries either.

I don't think I wrote anything about freedom of speech. None the less, PP is a Pakistan centric forum with majority of Muslim users. Hence, of course it won't be allowed here.

And Did the Dutch products got thrown out in non Islamic countries?

You see, everything you wrote is centered around Islamic countries, or entities that follow the same principles.

There's a world outside of it where it isn't encouraged but it isn't seen as blasphemous too. Hence, they can state whatever they want according to their rules. If you are insulted by it, that's your reaction which you can express or you may not. But the world doesn't revolve around Islamic principles only. Hence, rest will just work according their own principles while you can follow your own.

 

[Itachi]

I can prove right here that so called freedom of speech has limits. Just make a blasphemous comment about any religious figure by posting offensive content and I'll report you! There goes your freedom of speech! Abuse a policeman on duty under your "freedom of speech" belief and he'll take care of you behind bars

Freedom of speech is also a relative entity. What isn't accepted in PP could just be accepted in another forum. It just depends on their terms and conditions.

Go to an atheist forum and while the same words that could ban you here, those will be discussed on those forums.

You seem to be in the belief that everything is absolute and has clear boundaries.

They aren't. It depends on what rules you agreed to follow. While joining PP, I agreed to follow it's rules and hence I won't write anything that will break here.

But if another forum doesn't forbid me from posting those, then nothing will happen even if I post those same contents.

It's all relative.

 

[PakLFC]

Quite disgusting that you support people being killed for some drawings. And no, upsetting people isn't harassment. Saying 'Muhammad was a terrible person' is not harassment, it is free speech. I don't try to go around offending people, so I won't insult Muhammad here. I also would rather not get banned. However, what would really happen if I did? People would get angry at me over the internet, whatever would I do!?!

Again, I don't advocate being rude and inflammatory for no reason. I would not insult Muhammad, Vishnu, Guru Nanak, or whoever just to upset people as I'm not a rude person. However, if someone did mock them, they are allowed, it just is a rude thing to do.

When Muslims have given me grief for being an apostate, I have made disparaging remarks about Muhammad after they claimed he was perfect. I'm not saying that makes me a hard guy, but I have made those comments before. Why don't you publicly proclaim your support for the Charlie Hebdo shooters? So if I make fun of Muhammad, you are allowed to physically assault me? You are so incredibly fickle it's hilarious.

Where did I say I support people for drawing blasphemous cartoons? More complete nonsense from you! To Muslim's anything said about the Prophet of Islam is a sensitive issue. There is freedom of speech to a degree like saying "he was not a Prophet" is fine by me but drawing cartoons is not. So as you are afraid of being banned it proves your so called freedom of speech indeed is limited. Even if you made hurtful remarks against any religion at work it could lead to a sacking.

Again over the internet you hide behind a box. This is because you dare not say anything against people's religion on their face. Let me see you insult any religious personality in their place of worship if you are that free to say whatever you want? People can mock but there are consequences as well as seen with that Dutch politician after so many Muslim's went mad at him.

You can't judge all Muslim's by insulting the Prophet of 2 billion. It was not Muhammad(saw) who told those people to give you a hard time then why attack him? Well, I am a Muslim as well and don't give a toss about you having left Islam, it dos not bother me in the slightest neither am I interested in reconverting you. I don't support any murderer anymore then those like you who believe in hate speech thereby encouraging violence. You are so ignorant thinking you are a hero for free speech or a rebel like figure like Robin Hood that I feel embarrassed for you. If defending the Prophet of Allah makes me fickle in the eyes of disbelievers then so be it, I don't care.

 

[PakLFC]

Freedom of speech is also a relative entity. What isn't accepted in PP could just be accepted in another forum. It just depends on their terms and conditions.

Go to an atheist forum and while the same words that could ban you here, those will be discussed on those forums.

You seem to be in the belief that everything is absolute and has clear boundaries.

They aren't. It depends on what rules you agreed to follow. While joining PP, I agreed to follow it's rules and hence I won't write anything that will break here.

But if another forum doesn't forbid me from posting those, then nothing will happen even if I post those same contents.

It's all relative.

Sure coz cowards like you hide behind forums! You will never enter a place of worship to challenge the faithful fully well knowing the consequences. The difference is that I have nothing to fear even though I don't believe in all messengers of the divine but I don't have the right to insult them either. You on the other hand think that being an atheist gives you the right to hurt people's feelings because you atheists are bullies. This is particularly true for people like you who converted to atheism so seem all excited as if you've hit the jackpot or something.

Yes in Islam everything is absolute. Now tell me that what atheist Prophet can I insult that could have me banned? Yes you can hide behind a forum and say anything but not openly confirming your freedom of speech is restricted.

 

[PakLFC]

of course they will be angry. And anger is a part of life. Hypocrisy will be, if that person, who stated negative remarks about the prophet will complain for objections. He isnt entitled to be above criticism either.


I don't think I wrote anything about freedom of speech. None the less, PP is a Pakistan centric forum with majority of Muslim users. Hence, of course it won't be allowed here.

And Did the Dutch products got thrown out in non Islamic countries?

You see, everything you wrote is centered around Islamic countries, or entities that follow the same principles.

There's a world outside of it where it isn't encouraged but it isn't seen as blasphemous too. Hence, they can state whatever they want according to their rules. If you are insulted by it, that's your reaction which you can express or you may not. But the world doesn't revolve around Islamic principles only. Hence, rest will just work according their own principles while you can follow your own.

What exactly is your idea for free speech? If you mean denying Muhammad's(saw) prophecy then that is fine but making blasphemous pictures is not. Reacting differently to situations is a human thing not restricted to religion only.

So if it won't be allowed here it confirms that your freedom of speech is overrated and a myth. Insulting religions is also banned in many work places as well which is why most people do not do so openly but only behind a laptop coz it's easier for them that way.

I am not in an Islamic country yet talk on any religion is banned in my work place. There are many Muslim countries that did not react much to the cartoons back then in case it missed you. Yes I believe Dutch products were thrown out which is why they have completely stopped doing such acts. It hit them very hard in the pocket. They can do whatever they want in the sense that no one can hold their tongues but there will be consequence. If a friend of mines insulted the Prophet I would see it as a means to hurt my sentiments thus would end all contact with him, this ciz I do not accept the right to deliberately offend religious sentiments like you do.

I regard respecting other people's religious belief as basic humanity not Islamic principles.

 

[Itachi]

Yes in Islam everything is absolute. Now tell me that what atheist Prophet can I insult that could have me banned? Yes you can hide behind a forum and say anything but not openly confirming your freedom of speech is restricted.

Restricted freedom of speech.... That's exactly what I said. Freedom of speech is a relative entity with respect to existing rules and terms that you agree upon.

These rules and terms are different across different institutions.

I asked one question, did non Islamic countries threw away the Dutch products in the example you gave?

 

[Itachi]

What exactly is your idea for free speech? If you mean denying Muhammad's(saw) prophecy then that is fine but making blasphemous pictures is not. Reacting differently to situations is a human thing not restricted to religion only.

So if it won't be allowed here it confirms that your freedom of speech is overrated and a myth. Insulting religions is also banned in many work places as well which is why most people do not do so openly but only behind a laptop coz it's easier for them that way.

freedom of speech is relative. Everything in life is relative in respect to something else. When you say a car is moving at 60 mph, that doesn't mean the car is moving at 60 mph for everyone. It means the car is moving at 60 mph with respect to a person who is stationary and for a moving person, it could be something else.

am not in an Islamic country yet talk on any religion is banned in my work place. There are many Muslim countries that did not react much to the cartoons back then in case it missed you. Yes I believe Dutch products were thrown out which is why they have completely stopped doing such acts. It hit them very hard in the pocket. They can do whatever they want in the sense that no one can hold their tongues but there will be consequence. If a friend of mines insulted the Prophet I would see it as a means to hurt my sentiments thus would end all contact with him, this ciz I do not accept the right to deliberately offend religious sentiments like you do.

if you cut contact, that's your personal decision.

I'll ask again, why non Islamic countries didn't prohibit Dutch products?

i regard respecting other people's religious belief as basic humanity not Islamic principles.

That's your view. But your expectations isn't your entitlement.

 

[PakLFC]

Restricted freedom of speech.... That's exactly what I said. Freedom of speech is a relative entity with respect to existing rules and terms that you agree upon.

These rules and terms are different across different institutions.

I asked one question, did non Islamic countries threw away the Dutch products in the example you gave?

Once again if you say making blasphemous pics of religious figures is freedom of expression then I disagree. If you deny any religious figure or leave the religion you were born in to then there is no problem. Non Islamic countries were eventually forced in to shutting up, they don't do such acts anymore. This is what Muslim's wanted not for them to throw away their own products so the job was done.

 

[PakLFC]

freedom of speech is relative. Everything in life is relative in respect to something else. When you say a car is moving at 60 mph, that doesn't mean the car is moving at 60 mph for everyone. It means the car is moving at 60 mph with respect to a person who is stationary and for a moving person, it could be something else.

if you cut contact, that's your personal decision.

I'll ask again, why non Islamic countries didn't prohibit Dutch products?



That's your view. But your expectations isn't your entitlement.

Coz they are not Muslim obviously. The point is that Muslim's got the Dutch to end making offensive cartoons. Now I don't know where your car comes comes in here!!

But you see by ending contact with someone it makes the other person visit their conscience. Once again, Muslim's got the Dutch to end their blasphemy which was the target not getting rid of their own products. Yes, many people there did protest at the time as well if I remember correctly.

 

[PakLFC]

So the so called freedom of speech of the Dutch was even restricted in their own country. They now know full well that repeating such an act means similar consequences. It is your idea of freedom of speech that I'll do whatever and whenever I want without a care in the world of other peoples feelings that is clearly wrong.

 

[Itachi]

Coz they are not Muslim obviously.

This is what i refered as the reaction will vary depending upon the institution that you are in.

The point is that Muslim's got the Dutch to end making offensive cartoons. Now I don't know where your car comes comes in here!!

i don't think you did understand my question in the first place. What i asked was, did non islamic countries threw away dutch products? The subject in the question is non islamic countries.

But you see by ending contact with someone it makes the other person visit their conscience.

it may or it may not. Above is your expectation. But above isn't entitlement.

Following isn't an insult of any sort but just a feeling that i felt reading the words you wrote (forgive me for being straight forward but I just want to let this one out). You seem to live in a dimension where everything, everyone reciprocrates to you in the same way as you do or atleast, you expect them to do which gives you the notion of "entitlement".

But in reality (as we know it), things don't go according to plan. Life isn't fair and sometimes even after good deeds, you may receive the short end of the stick. Sometimes, you may respect someone but he/she may not react the same way as you would have expected in return.

But you can't complain because this isn't your entitlement in the first place.

 

[PakLFC]

This is what i refered as the reaction will vary depending upon the institution that you are in.

i don't think you did understand my question in the first place. What i asked was, did non islamic countries threw away dutch products? The subject in the question is non islamic countries.



it may or it may not. Above is your expectation. But above isn't entitlement.

Following isn't an insult of any sort but just a feeling that i felt reading the words you wrote (forgive me for being straight forward but I just want to let this one out). You seem to live in a dimension where everything, everyone reciprocrates to you in the same way as you do or atleast, you expect them to do which gives you the notion of "entitlement".

But in reality (as we know it), things don't go according to plan. Life isn't fair and sometimes even after good deeds, you may receive the short end of the stick. Sometimes, you may respect someone but he/she may not react the same way as you would have expected in return.

But you can't complain because this isn't your entitlement in the first place.

So if the reaction is dependant on a thing or people fear speaking their mind for some reason then it can't be freedom of speech like you insist. Many people want but can not abuse religion being fearful of the consequences.

Why would non Muslim countries throw away products but many non Muslim's living there did strongly condemn the action of the dutch. Following what isn't an insult? No I believe that attacking anything without reason is cruel and unfair irrespective of who the perpetrator is. Even if a Muslim insulted an atheist I would remain firm on this.

Let us get to the point here:

Do you condone or condemn the cartoons of the Prophet of Allah?

 

[Itachi]

So if the reaction is dependant on a thing or people fear speaking their mind for some reason then it can't be freedom of speech like you insist. Many people want but can not abuse religion being fearful of the consequences.

I already stated freedom of speech is relative. Relative to the rules and regulations to the system you are in. There's no ideal freedom of speech exists in the real world as it works differently from one system to another.

Let us get to the point here:

Do you condone or condemn the cartoons of the Prophet of Allah?

I am an atheist. I don't believe in any religion. But I restrict that to myself only.

If you pray to a God, or a prophet (doesn't matter it is prophet of islam, jews, christians or hinduism), i have no objection.

If you condemn them, i have no objections.

i have apathy towards religion be it in praising or insulting.

 

[PakLFC]

I already stated freedom of speech is relative. Relative to the rules and regulations to the system you are in. There's no ideal freedom of speech exists in the real world as it works differently from one system to another.



I am an atheist. I don't believe in any religion. But I restrict that to myself only.

If you pray to a God, or a prophet (doesn't matter it is prophet of islam, jews, christians or hinduism), i have no objection.

If you condemn them, i have no objections.

i have apathy towards religion be it in praising or insulting.

Don't try to ignore the question I asked. Do you condone or condemn attacks on holy figures of any faith? Yes or no?

No freedom of speech is curtailed. That Dutch PM as forced to stop his nonsense after the pressure he wwas put under by his own people as well. In his own country he can no longer hurt Muslim sentiments. The rules of the Netherlands allow him to laugh at and have his people publish blasphemous content. Pressure from Muslim countries forced him to put a permanent end too it.

 

[Itachi]

Don't try to ignore the question I asked. Do you condone or condemn attacks on holy figures of any faith? Yes or no?

you don't seem to grasp different concepts clearly.

For me, any religion, god or prophets are imaginary entity.

Do you condemn or condone the events that occur in your dreams? None.

I have apathy towards religion as i stated earlier. Hence, neither i condone nor condemn.

You condone or codemn something which is siginificant towaeds your ideology. But since, i have no connection with religion and has no siginificance towards my life, hence i do neither.

 

[PakLFC]

you don't seem to grasp different concepts clearly.

For me, any religion, god or prophets are imaginary entity.

Do you condemn or condone the events that occur in your dreams? None.

I have apathy towards religion as i stated earlier. Hence, neither i condone nor condemn.

You condone or codemn something which is siginificant towaeds your ideology. But since, i have no connection with religion and has no siginificance towards my life, hence i do neither.

Never mind the concepts and all! Just answer the damn question that is simple enough instead of beating around the bush. You can not compare dreams to a simple question I am asking that do you condemn or condone blasphemous cartoons that upset the faithful of any religion? You may not be a believer in any faith that is not an answer at all.

 

[Itachi]

Never mind the concepts and all! Just answer the damn question that is simple enough instead of beating around the bush. You can not compare dreams to a simple question I am asking that do you condemn or condone blasphemous cartoons that upset the faithful of any religion? You may not be a believer in any faith that is not an answer at all.

I already stated. I neither condone not condemn.

 

[Itachi]

I already stated. I neither condone not condemn.

*nor

 

[Stewie]

I actually agree with itachi on certain parts of this discussion.

Simply protesting or complaining against hate speech simply gives them publicity.. there is no such thing as negative publicity. And forcing them to cease and desist is not going to achieve anything. You simply provoke them with laws of foreign lands backing them based on FOS.

 

[PakLFC]

I already stated. I neither condone not condemn.

Sitting on the shelf remaining neutral is the way or a coward. As you do not condemn then you condone it by default. This being so you have no right to complain when your "freedom of speech" extends to matters outside religion.

 

[Itachi]

Sitting on the shelf remaining neutral is the way or a coward. As you do not condemn then you condone it by default. This being so you have no right to complain when your "freedom of speech" extends to matters outside religion.

Where did I complain? You live your own way, I will live mine. Your whole argument doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

I love how xenophobes on the internet say hate speech is free speech as long as it aligns with their views. Free speech goes hand in hand with responsibility and everyone should be held accountable for what they say. If you’re a bigot then you deserve to be called out and shunned. Unfortunately, the internet especially YouTube is a hub for white nationalists and alt right pieces of trash

 

[LongHorn]

Hate speech normally follows 3 steps on social media

1) Make negative comments about a minority race or religion
2) Some people object to that
3) Complain about how PC is destroying the world

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Hate speech normally follows 3 steps on social media

1) Make negative comments about a minority race or religion
2) Some people object to that
3) Complain about how PC is destroying the world

Yep. Anyone who uses the term “sjw” as an insult or complains about how sensitive people are can very safely be ignored

 

[Tubs]

Once again if you say making blasphemous pics of religious figures is freedom of expression then I disagree. If you deny any religious figure or leave the religion you were born in to then there is no problem. Non Islamic countries were eventually forced in to shutting up, they don't do such acts anymore. This is what Muslim's wanted not for them to throw away their own products so the job was done.

Again, blasphemy is freedom of speech in a free society. Once again, you- stealthily- show your approval for terrorists attacks in response to blasphemy. And don't think for a second that non-Islamic countries have stopped free expression, if someone wants to draw Muhammad they can, will and do.

 

[Itachi]

I love how xenophobes on the internet say hate speech is free speech as long as it aligns with their views. Free speech goes hand in hand with responsibility and everyone should be held accountable for what they say. If you’re a bigot then you deserve to be called out and shunned. Unfortunately, the internet especially YouTube is a hub for white nationalists and alt right pieces of trash

It depends on frame of reference.

 

[PakLFC]

Where did I complain? You live your own way, I will live mine. Your whole argument doesn't make any sense at all.

My argument simple for people of understanding. Any form of deliberate offence is to be condemned. You are saying "I'll sit on the shelf when it comes to such matters".

 

[PakLFC]

Again, blasphemy is freedom of speech in a free society. Once again, you- stealthily- show your approval for terrorists attacks in response to blasphemy. And don't think for a second that non-Islamic countries have stopped free expression, if someone wants to draw Muhammad they can, will and do.

Where did I approve "terrorist attacks"? Your free society picks and chooses what to and not condemn that is the problem. Yes they have stopped producing cartoons being fearful of a backlash. They know all their products will be thrown out on the streets costing them millions of $$$/£££ in damage. It has been years since such cartoon were published. I am sure you support racist groups like the EDL who have now naturally died as well.

 

[Itachi]

My argument simple for people of understanding. Any form of deliberate offence is to be condemned. You are saying "I'll sit on the shelf when it comes to such matters".

My pov is little bit different. When people will fight over their imagination, however ugly it may be, I'll distance myself from it. Because those people are fighting over whose imagination has more truth in it and I simply have better things to do.

 

[PakLFC]

My pov is little bit different. When people will fight over their imagination, however ugly it may be, I'll distance myself from it. Because those people are fighting over whose imagination has more truth in it and I simply have better things to do.

What imagination are you talking about? Verbal offence is not an imagination but a fact that can lead to violence.

 

[Tubs]

Where did I approve "terrorist attacks"? Your free society picks and chooses what to and not condemn that is the problem. Yes they have stopped producing cartoons being fearful of a backlash. They know all their products will be thrown out on the streets costing them millions of $$$/£££ in damage. It has been years since such cartoon were published. I am sure you support racist groups like the EDL who have now naturally died as well.

See, you are happy that the attacks happened because some publications fear 'backlash'. Again, would you rather publications publish depictions of Muhammad and be safe, or would you rather they be attacked? 'Pick and choose' what? As long as there is no incitement to violence, speech and expression are allowed. And no, harassment is not a part of that before you try and smuggle that in. I fully support boycotting products, so that's no issue at all. Though I doubt that Islamic countries boycotting will do too much, considering Denmark and Netherlands for example export a lot of haram goods. I certainly do not support EDL, I am just not a ideologue who screams and cries when I get offended and would rather people be brutally murdered than be offended.

 

[PakLFC]

See, you are happy that the attacks happened because some publications fear 'backlash'. Again, would you rather publications publish depictions of Muhammad and be safe, or would you rather they be attacked? 'Pick and choose' what? As long as there is no incitement to violence, speech and expression are allowed. And no, harassment is not a part of that before you try and smuggle that in. I fully support boycotting products, so that's no issue at all. Though I doubt that Islamic countries boycotting will do too much, considering Denmark and Netherlands for example export a lot of haram goods. I certainly do not support EDL, I am just not a ideologue who screams and cries when I get offended and would rather people be brutally murdered than be offended.

By backlash I mean throwing products out of their stores. I would rather that they did not publish anything blasphemous at all coz it does not do anyone any favours. It is people like you who encourage the likes of the EDL and BNP to sprout their hatred then call it freedom of expression when those thugs get violent. Hate speech is provocation to violence and you know it so stop pretending otherwise. The purpose is to upset any community to they become violent, nothing else. Now ace even many non Muslim's were protesting against those cartoons saying exactly what I am that there was no need for it at all. You can not say insulting someone who is holy to over 2 billion people is not inciting hatred, I am not having it for a minute. The Dutch and the Danish lost a lot of money at the time so much that they cancelled such future campaigns in fear of losing even more. It became a diplomatic crises as well between the Muslim countries and the perpetrators of such vile offence so don't tell me they'll do it again. I am afraid you will cry if someone offends your family like this, don't tell me that is different to this issue coz it ain't.

 

[Itachi]

What imagination are you talking about? Verbal offence is not an imagination but a fact that can lead to violence.

For me, every religion is just an imagination on minds. Over the years, different religion have fought to establish who has the true God. Which is nothing different than comics fans fighting for their favorite character about who is stronger (in my point of view). If people are taking offence on such matters and become violent, then why should I be part of such fights (either way) since for me, why I'll get involved in any way for things which have zero priorities for me.

You'll get offended and become violent? Fine, go and fight. Neither I'll support, nor I'll forbid.

 

[PakLFC]

For me, every religion is just an imagination on minds. Over the years, different religion have fought to establish who has the true God. Which is nothing different than comics fans fighting for their favorite character about who is stronger (in my point of view). If people are taking offence on such matters and become violent, then why should I be part of such fights (either way) since for me, why I'll get involved in any way for things which have zero priorities for me.

You'll get offended and become violent? Fine, go and fight. Neither I'll support, nor I'll forbid.

So do you expect the supreme himself to you!!? People will fight over land, money, wealth, earth's resources and whatever else because Allah tells us to but it is in our nature. It is absurd of you to compare fictional characters to what people consider as the greatest people ever to have walked the earth. No one is asking you to become part of anything just don't initiate trouble by deliberately saying something offensive that will trigger it off. I will not get violent but millions of all faiths will do so leading to conflict so your belief of saying anything whenever you want in nonsensical. Problem is people like you too are regularly made to obey the law of the country you live in yet think it is okay to say whatever you want. Doesn't make sense at all.

 

[Tubs]

By backlash I mean throwing products out of their stores. I would rather that they did not publish anything blasphemous at all coz it does not do anyone any favours. It is people like you who encourage the likes of the EDL and BNP to sprout their hatred then call it freedom of expression when those thugs get violent. Hate speech is provocation to violence and you know it so stop pretending otherwise. The purpose is to upset any community to they become violent, nothing else. Now ace even many non Muslim's were protesting against those cartoons saying exactly what I am that there was no need for it at all. You can not say insulting someone who is holy to over 2 billion people is not inciting hatred, I am not having it for a minute. The Dutch and the Danish lost a lot of money at the time so much that they cancelled such future campaigns in fear of losing even more. It became a diplomatic crises as well between the Muslim countries and the perpetrators of such vile offence so don't tell me they'll do it again. I am afraid you will cry if someone offends your family like this, don't tell me that is different to this issue coz it ain't.

You won't admit it, but you're happy the attacks happened. Will you categorically say that you'd rather the cartoonists not have been physically harmed in any form? People like you always strawman your opposition and say they support the EDL and BNP. I am Pakistani, why would I support racists who think I am not British? I am against all forms of violence, unlike you who is happy that cartoonists died for 'blaspheming'. Yes, 'hate speech' if you mean inciting hatred is bad, and it is illegal for a reason. Direct calls for violence is not protected under speech. And no, insulting a holy figure is not tantamount to violence, you're just saying that to justify the irrationality that some Muslims portray when Muhammad is insulted. I am no lover of Christianity at all, but Jesus gets ridiculed all the time and no one (or far, far less so that it's not even a news story) dies for it. I'm not sure if that's true in regards to how much money they lost, but I don't care, I support the right to protest, as I support free speech and expression. Many places still hold 'Draw Muhammad' competitions. I don't necessarily like them as they're incredibly inflammatory and edgy for the sole purpose to offend, but it's their right to do it. The more you say you can't do it, the more they want to. The more violence happens because of it, the more it will happen. Muslims are better than this, they aren't thin-skinned babies, and it is such a disservice to the global Muslim community when everyone gets way too hung up on it. Sure, you can be offended, but when such an uproar is made over it (including violence) it looks very bad on Muslims. And my family aren't public figures, nor have they made inflammatory comments publicly (which can be said of Muhammad, depending on your side of an issue), so certain offensive comments made towards them could be classed as slander or harassment. There is nuance to this. However, if someone made some ugly comments, yes I would not be happy, but if they don't enter illegal areas (such as libel, slander, harassment, etc), it is free speech. Muhammad is not alive today, so he can't be harassed, slandered, etc, so any comments regarding him are allowed (though I will say historically incorrect statements should immediately be shot down and corrected as he is a historic figure, I'm not advocating censorship, but education).

We obviously won't agree on this, but just because you (and many other Muslims) love him more than your parents doesn't mean he gets special privileges in non-Islamic countries. Again, I don't necessarily want people to hate on him, but it's allowed. Your parents are real people (I am assuming they are alive, my sincerest apologies if not) and people have memories of them. They can be slandered, abused, harassed, etc. They have far more rights than Muhammad under non-Islamic law, so please don't act like the West is under Islamic theocracy. If you really don't want to hear negative things about Muhammad, stay off certain parts of the internet and don't live in the West, as it is free speech.