How did Indian pacers improve over last 2 years?

[silent ischemia]

I met an Indian cricket fan a few months back and he said just give Shaheen to Bharat Arun, he will be a world beater

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Recent games sort of debunk the myth that India relies on Ash/ Jadeja by preparing rank-turners. Indian pacers have been just as successful as their spinning counterparts.

This Indian bowling attack is as complete as they come in SC.

Thanks bhai....am xcited to watch your teen guns playing in the Aus series as well
Yes feels good as a long suffering indian fan when i used to see spinners on from the 4th over and us knocking over teams on rank turners,....nowadays the pitches are getting good as well, evenly bounce-thats the key..... but for making this complete we have a long way to go, no decent Left armer -Khaleel is pathetic and hopefully he's played his last game - unless he adds about 15 kmph...seconldly we donot have a second layer of young quicks, i heard Shivam or Kamlesh were injured-dunno who..but these along with navdeep, avesh need more time to be considered as second string to replace UY ,IS, JB, bhuvan or MS...the most heart warming part is finally we are becoming pace oriented, something pak always was....and long may this continue..

 

[Balthazar]

Previously, under Dhoni, they were treated like nothing more than door mats as he was more interested in LOIs and it was much easier to achieve success in that format. It took a top quality batsman to understand the essence of fast bowlers but the downside of Kohli is our batting has regressed and he is clueless in LOIs.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Love
Care

Indians are by nature sensitive and emotional people.

If you have to get the best out of Indians you must give them warmth and assurance.

This is what Indian pacers got under Kohli's leadership and surveillance of Rabi Shastri.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Previously, under Dhoni, they were treated like nothing more than door mats as he was more interested in LOIs and it was much easier to achieve success in that format. It took a top quality batsman to understand the essence of fast bowlers but the downside of Kohli is our batting has regressed and he is clueless in LOIs.

yea no. Batting has been just as strong. Kohli just doesn't pick the right players due to personal bias.
Shaw and Mayank should have been blooded in way earlier.
he drops pujara and rahane for key test matches in England and s.africa.

picks his buddy Rahul.

if he actually picks the right players there is no stopping india even in England.

 

[Indiafan]

Previously, under Dhoni, they were treated like nothing more than door mats as he was more interested in LOIs and it was much easier to achieve success in that format. It took a top quality batsman to understand the essence of fast bowlers but the downside of Kohli is our batting has regressed and he is clueless in LOIs.

Still remember dhoni asking ishant to bowl around the wicket and every ball short. He used to spoon feed his fast bowlers and used them as defensive options. Ishant and shami were completely confused under him, had to curb all natural instincts and be defensive and one dimensional. You couldn't bowl full when he wanted every ball to be short


People are crediting bharat arun here but if the captain wants Pacers to be defensive or spoon fed, there is not much they can do. I also feel kuldeep has regressed because dhoni used to spoon feed him every ball

 

[Xoib]

The way they keep their pace up though each spell in the game deep in to the series is commendable and that has been the difference

 

[Napa]

destroying and annihilating every freaking team in home and winning in australia for a start. india were good in South Africa too. <b>England is the only bogey team left and that will change soon.</b> No other team has won as many tests as india. No other team has dominated at home like india. Many teams have drawn and lost at home.

Actually India has already beaten England in England a while ago in 1971, on their way to the #1 ranking.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/series/17254/india-in-england-test-series

 

[Indiafan]

Actually India has already beaten England in England a while ago in 1971, on their way to the #1 ranking.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/series/17254/india-in-england-test-series

And again in 86 and 2007. We have win 3 series in england. South Africa and australia were always bigger challenges for india

 

[Sidilicious]

Actually India has already beaten England in England a while ago in 1971, on their way to the #1 ranking.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/series/17254/india-in-england-test-series

And again in 86 and 2007. We have win 3 series in england. South Africa and australia were always bigger challenges for india

But in each of the last 3 tours, we have been hammered by England, whereas against SA and Aus, we have managed to compete.

For Kohli's team to become India's greatest, they would need to conquer SA and Eng in their next tours. As long as that does not happen, our team from 08-11 would be India's best team. They drew in SA away, won against England, and the only team they lost to was Aus (that too marginally, Sydney 08 etc).

 

[Mainul]

But failure in the big matches just like AB. He gave away 40 runs to a average batsman Jadeha where Prasad was the winner between the battle with A Sohail plus got the wicket of Ijaz and Inzamam.

You can ridicule any great of cricket by picking up one particular incident. Every great had failures. That's why they were human. It is really funny to see comparison between Waqar and Prasad. Waqar is an all time great, a phenomenal bowler ,one of the best pacer the game have ever produced. No comparison with an average pacer.

 

[Napa]

You can ridicule any great of cricket by picking up one particular incident. Every great had failures. That's why they were human. It is really funny to see comparison between Waqar and Prasad. Waqar is an all time great, a phenomenal bowler ,one of the best pacer the game have ever produced. No comparison with an average pacer.

It's not just one incident. On the biggest stage, India vs. Pakistan in the WC, Prasad comprehensively outperformed Waqar. For all these games their combined figures are:

Prasad: 19.3-2-72-8 (run rate of 3.69 per over and 9 runs per wkt).
Waqar: 18.4-1-138-4 (run rate of 7.39 per over and 34.5 runs per wkt).

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ia-vs-pakistan-2nd-qf-wills-world-cup-1995-96
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ndia-vs-pakistan-4th-super-icc-world-cup-1999
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-vs-pakistan-36th-match-icc-world-cup-2002-03

The difference is massive, not sure how it can be explained given their performance at other times. Maybe Waqar froze at the prospect of playing India in the WC.

Prasad is certainly one of the important contributor for India's 12-0 WC streak against Pakistan.

 

[tyron_woodley]

But in each of the last 3 tours, we have been hammered by England, whereas against SA and Aus, we have managed to compete.

For Kohli's team to become India's greatest, they would need to conquer SA and Eng in their next tours. As long as that does not happen, our team from 08-11 would be India's best team. They drew in SA away, won against England, and the only team they lost to was Aus (that too marginally, Sydney 08 etc).

lol?this team is already amongst top 4 greatest of all time. Their sheer domination at home plus the away win in australia is sufficient. They are above india of 08-11 and graeme Smith's saffers.

kohli's india have won 32 out of 52 games. That's an insane record. second only to Waugh's Aussies.

I don't buy that weak era bullsh*t. india were weak in 90s yet we don't discount Australia's domination overall even though they never beat india away in 90s.

 

[Mainul]

It's not just one incident. On the biggest stage, India vs. Pakistan in the WC, Prasad comprehensively outperformed Waqar. For all these games their combined figures are:

Prasad: 19.3-2-72-8 (run rate of 3.69 per over and 9 runs per wkt).
Waqar: 18.4-1-138-4 (run rate of 7.39 per over and 34.5 runs per wkt).

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ia-vs-pakistan-2nd-qf-wills-world-cup-1995-96
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ndia-vs-pakistan-4th-super-icc-world-cup-1999
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-vs-pakistan-36th-match-icc-world-cup-2002-03

The difference is massive, not sure how it can be explained given their performance at other times. Maybe Waqar froze at the prospect of playing India in the WC.

Prasad is certainly one of the important contributor for India's 12-0 WC streak against Pakistan.

According to your logic, Sunil Joshi of India is a better bowler than Shane Warned as Joshi averged 32 with the ball against Aussies while S Warned 56 against India in ODIs.
You can focus on one area biasedly to glorify an average bowler over all time great.

 

[shantanu]

According to your logic, Sunil Joshi of India is a better bowler than Shane Warned as Joshi averged 32 with the ball against Aussies while S Warned 56 against India in ODIs.
You can focus on one area biasedly to glorify an average bowler over all time great.

Waqar (if he did not do any hanky panky bottle cap stuff in a systematic way) was a class above Prasad.
Its plain to see. There is no comparison.
But he is definitely not an ATG.
Failed miserably against strong batting lineups.

 

[Sidilicious]

lol?this team is already amongst top 4 greatest of all time. Their sheer domination at home plus the away win in australia is sufficient. They are above india of 08-11 and graeme Smith's saffers.

kohli's india have won 32 out of 52 games. That's an insane record. second only to Waugh's Aussies.

I don't buy that weak era bullsh*t. india were weak in 90s yet we don't discount Australia's domination overall even though they never beat india away in 90s.

They beat India in 04. They won against every country away in that period. India lost 2 consecutive series in 2018. Even the Indian team from 07-11 only lost 1 away series. Simple. Unless we stop losing abroad, we will not be in the same category as Australia of the 00s.

 

[MMHS]

May be they have started to eat beef .....

On a serious note, I think the skill set was always there, may not be at this level, but Indian pacers were good at using new ball - what it’s working now is their strength & stamina - even on 4th spell of the day they are charging at full throttle.

Second factor is, for the first time to Indian pacers are hunting together - in part individually, Kapil, Srinath or Zak could have matched current quartet (actually better), but they were always alone.

I think, main reason for this is systematic development for decades - all these inputs from pro coaches & mentors had to bring a result at one point and the change in mind set. In past, I have seen talented Indian pacers, instead of building Cody to sustain the work load, time median pacers were more focused on developing batting and prolonging career. Meanwhile, wickets have changed, domestic team composition has changed, coaching staffs have changed .....

 

[tyron_woodley]

They beat India in 04. They won against every country away in that period. India lost 2 consecutive series in 2018. Even the Indian team from 07-11 only lost 1 away series. Simple. Unless we stop losing abroad, we will not be in the same category as Australia of the 00s.

I totally agree with that but I was just referring to Smith's saffers and india of 08-11. Current india are better than those 2. Still below Aussies of 2000 because they need a win away vs england and one vs n.z.

 

[tyron_woodley]

May be they have started to eat beef .....

On a serious note, I think the skill set was always there, may not be at this level, but Indian pacers were good at using new ball - what it’s working now is their strength & stamina - even on 4th spell of the day they are charging at full throttle.

Second factor is, for the first time to Indian pacers are hunting together - in part individually, Kapil, Srinath or Zak could have matched current quartet (actually better), but they were always alone.

I think, main reason for this is systematic development for decades - all these inputs from pro coaches & mentors had to bring a result at one point and the change in mind set. In past, I have seen talented Indian pacers, instead of building Cody to sustain the work load, time median pacers were more focused on developing batting and prolonging career. Meanwhile, wickets have changed, domestic team composition has changed, coaching staffs have changed .....

yes I agree. Plus around mid 2000s, australia had a good first change bowler in lee and also an all rounder in Watson.

Smith's saffers had steyn, morkel and then won one like rabada or abbott as first change. Plus kalis could bowl.

You need good first change bowlers plus an all rounder who can bowl decent but ideally atleast a good first change option.

india have those privileges now hence they are strong.

 

[tyron_woodley]

pakistan back in the days had waqar wasim. then azar mahmood could come in later.
razzaq could bowl decent too as an all rounder.

 

[Napa]

According to your logic, Sunil Joshi of India is a better bowler than Shane Warned as Joshi averged 32 with the ball against Aussies while S Warned 56 against India in ODIs.
You can focus on one area biasedly to glorify an average bowler over all time great.

I did not make any judgement about who is the "better bowler", I said "On the biggest stage, India vs. Pakistan in the WC, Prasad comprehensively outperformed Waqar."

Joshi's average of 32 can in no way be compared to a Prasad's average of 9. And a run rate of 3.69 per over! He essentially destroyed Pakistani batting in the two biggest games of his career. In contrast Waqar got destroyed by Indian batsmen both time he played against them in the WC.

Prasad's bowling was massive for India's victories against Pakistan in WC 1996, and WC 1999. In no way does that compare to Joshi's 6 JAMODIs' average against Australia.

 

[Mainul]

I did not make any judgement about who is the "better bowler", I said "On the biggest stage, India vs. Pakistan in the WC, Prasad comprehensively outperformed Waqar."

Joshi's average of 32 can in no way be compared to a Prasad's average of 9. And a run rate of 3.69 per over! He essentially destroyed Pakistani batting in the two biggest games of his career. In contrast Waqar got destroyed by Indian batsmen both time he played against them in the WC.

Prasad's bowling was massive for India's victories against Pakistan in WC 1996, and WC 1999. In no way does that compare to Joshi's 6 JAMODIs' average against Australia.

Pakistan always had mental issues against India in world cup games. No generation of Pak players could beat India in WC. Even when Pakistan made beating India their habit in late 80s, 90's and there was a huge difference in winning and losing ratio between two sides, they couldn't beat India in WC. Pak bowlers, batsmen all had and have issues in World cups. Prasad's low average in two matches is the result of it. Nothing to glorify it.

 

[Sidilicious]

I totally agree with that but I was just referring to Smith's saffers and india of 08-11. Current india are better than those 2. Still below Aussies of 2000 because they need a win away vs england and one vs n.z.

Fair enough. However, I do feel that India from 07-11 were better than Kohli's India, because of our superior batting. The fast current bowling is obviously better. Although, if Kohli's India can continue this domination for another couple of years, they would have overtaken the 08-11 team. And if they can beat NZ in NZ, draw in Aus, and beat Eng and SA in respective countries, they would be on Par with Ponting and Waughs team, only behind the WI of 80s and Bradman's invincible.

 

[Captain caveman]

Still remember dhoni asking ishant to bowl around the wicket and every ball short. He used to spoon feed his fast bowlers and used them as defensive options. Ishant and shami were completely confused under him, had to curb all natural instincts and be defensive and one dimensional. You couldn't bowl full when he wanted every ball to be short


People are crediting bharat arun here but if the captain wants Pacers to be defensive or spoon fed, there is not much they can do. I also feel kuldeep has regressed because dhoni used to spoon feed him every ball

Dhoni like misbah, captained their spinners well, but were not good with the pacers. Kohli uses the pacers better.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Pakistan always had mental issues against India in world cup games. No generation of Pak players could beat India in WC. Even when Pakistan made beating India their habit in late 80s, 90's and there was a huge difference in winning and losing ratio between two sides, they couldn't beat India in WC. Pak bowlers, batsmen all had and have issues in World cups. Prasad's low average in two matches is the result of it. Nothing to glorify it.

A little choosy, are we? While the same logic can be used to state Virat is not a goat batsman, it doesnt apply to Waqar? World Cup is the biggest stage,and if you fail to perform on a world stage, are you really that great?
Btw, Waqar has been greatly helped by his stats in the first 2-3 yrs of his career. Post 94, he was more of an average bowler.

 

[Mainul]

A little choosy, are we? While the same logic can be used to state Virat is not a goat batsman, it doesnt apply to Waqar? World Cup is the biggest stage,and if you fail to perform on a world stage, are you really that great?
Btw, Waqar has been greatly helped by his stats in the first 2-3 yrs of his career. Post 94, he was more of an average bowler.

Waqar missed the all important 1992 WC due to injury, when he was in most peak as a bowler. Had he played ,Pakistan would have won more easily and Waqar would have performed magnificently. Then all the claiming of not performing in bigger stage would have gone.

 

[Napa]

Pak bowlers, batsmen all had and have issues in World cups. Prasad's low average in two matches is the result of it. Nothing to glorify it.

When you face your biggest opponents on the biggest stage, you can't deny a player credit saying "but the opponents were mentally shot".

Greatness is subjective. I would happily take the 2 victories Prasad was responsible for against Pakistan in the WC, over everything Waqar achieved in his lifetime. Yes, it would not be your choice, but like I said, it is subjective. I can't care less about JAMODIs and a few Test match victories here and there compared to WC wins. That is my subjective choice.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Waqar missed the all important 1992 WC due to injury, when he was in most peak as a bowler. Had he played ,Pakistan would have won more easily and Waqar would have performed magnificently. Then all the claiming of not performing in bigger stage would have gone.

Thats rhetoric. Lets just talk about facts. 'Would, should, could' do not count. If my aunty was a man, she would be my uncle!
Let's only talk on facts and stick to them. So either you accept you have double standards or agree Waqar was at the best an above average bowler for 3-4 yrs of his career.

 

[MP2011]

Waqar missed the all important 1992 WC due to injury, when he was in most peak as a bowler. Had he played ,Pakistan would have won more easily and Waqar would have performed magnificently. Then all the claiming of not performing in bigger stage would have gone.

lol, are you for real?

These are intangibles and hence don't count while talking about real achievements.

 

[Mainul]

A little choosy, are we? While the same logic can be used to state Virat is not a goat batsman, it doesnt apply to Waqar? World Cup is the biggest stage,and if you fail to perform on a world stage, are you really that great?
Btw, Waqar has been greatly helped by his stats in the first 2-3 yrs of his career. Post 94, he was more of an average bowler.

Thats rhetoric. Lets just talk about facts. 'Would, should, could' do not count. If my aunty was a man, she would be my uncle!
Let's only talk on facts and stick to them. So either you accept you have double standards or agree Waqar was at the best an above average bowler for 3-4 yrs of his career.

Winning WC is not the only criteria to prove a player ATG or not. Winning WC is a team effort. Pakistan did it in 1992, a team work. Waqar missed it, a great miss because people are talking about winning a WC. I don't agree on it. There are many memorable performance of Waqar even after 1994. So it's not true he was done beyond 1994. Sunny (Gavascar) was a trash ODI player, yet he is a legend, an ATG. You have to judge a player overall. Go through Waqar's test and ODI performances. See all his bowling videos available in internet ( I have watched almost all of his career which was televised) and then sit down think ask yourself. If you still don't get the answer, it's your problem, Waqar will remain an ATG.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Winning WC is not the only criteria to prove a player ATG or not. Winning WC is a team effort. Pakistan did it in 1992, a team work. Waqar missed it, a great miss because people are talking about winning a WC. I don't agree on it. There are many memorable performance of Waqar even after 1994. So it's not true he was done beyond 1994. Sunny (Gavascar) was a trash ODI player, yet he is a legend, an ATG. You have to judge a player overall. Go through Waqar's test and ODI performances. See all his bowling videos available in internet ( I have watched almost all of his career which was televised) and then sit down think ask yourself. If you still don't get the answer, it's your problem, Waqar will remain an ATG.

I love how you escape the question with your rhetorics. And for fark sake, get off that high horse you're riding. I have been watching cricket since 1982'sh and have seen Younish debut.

Now please mention, where in my post I spoke about someone winning a WC? Please show me. The point made was his performance in world cup matches, and against India in world cup. He may have had great career, but obviously he wasnt a big stage, big match, high pressure cooker situation player. He relished playing with opponents who were weaker when there wasnt a pressure of performance.

And what is this comparison between Sunny and Waqar? Who's compared them? Whoever mentioned Sunny was an ATG ODI player? Who, where when? Please show me. Sunny is often considered one of the best TEST OPENERS of all time. Perhaps you are a little weak in history and cricket, thought I would teach you a fact or 2 for the day!
So, lets come back to the point again - Between Prasad and Waqar, who was a big match player? Who brought his Game A when it mattered more?

 

[Revolution]

In 2019, among bowlers with more than 10 Wickets, 7 Pacers average less than 20.

4 of them are from India #INDvBAN

13 - Jasprit Bumrah
15 - Umesh Yadav
15 - Mohammed Shami
17 - Neil Wagner
17 - Kemar Roach
18 - Ishant Sharma
18 - Pat Cummins

 

[sunny85]

But Indian pacers have been doin this in seamer friendly conditions of subcontinent against C grade teams . Bring them to the test in flat tracks like Gabba (Brisbane) or Perth WACA they will be found wanting

 

[Sir Alex]

What I like about the current Indian pace attack is their ability to work as a team. It is very rare one of them goes and do a one man demolition job. Instead they repeatedly share two or three wicket hauls among themselves.

No wonder that in 2019 indian pacers combined have taken 95 wickets @ 15 average and 31 strike rate. Apparently no other team has achieved that kind of strike rate before in history.

 

[Buffet]

Huge difference between Indian pace unit under Dhoni and Kohli.

Kohli has transformed Indian pace unit. He is an atacking captain so he will lose some matches which could be drawn, but on flip side he will win lot more matches due to wanting to win every single test. His tactics has imporved as well. I won't be surprised to see him ending up as captain with most wins in history.

Not taking credit away from Indian pacers here, but Kohli played a big part.

 

[Indiafan]

A tale of two captains

 

[jnaveen1980]

Huge difference between Indian pace unit under Dhoni and Kohli.

Kohli has transformed Indian pace unit. He is an atacking captain so he will lose some matches which could be drawn, but on flip side he will win lot more matches due to wanting to win every single test. His tactics has imporved as well. I won't be surprised to see him ending up as captain with most wins in history.

Not taking credit away from Indian pacers here, but Kohli played a big part.

Dhoni was a defensive Test captain. Part of the reason being a keeper he didn't like to keep for quick bowlers lol He literally instructed Ishant to bowl short when his best stock delivery was full and inswinging delivery. He completely lost it under Dhoni.

 

[MenInG]

The ongoing edition of the Indian Premier League has witnessed some breathtaking speed by raw pacer Umran Malik. The 22-year-old has been constantly clocking the 150 kmph mark on the speed gun and has impressed several greats with his ability to generate raw pace. (IPL 2022 full coverage)

Batting great Brian Lara is one of the many who believes Umran will soon be knocking the door of Team India and drew comparisons between the Indian and Windies quick Fiedel Edwards.

“Umran Malik reminds me a lot about Fiedel Edwards when he first started, a lot of pace and I hope that he understands it as he goes into international cricket, which I think he'll eventually play.”

"In the IPL, a lot of batsmen get accustomed to playing sheer pace, so I hope that he adds a little bit more to his armoury later on. He's a quick learner in the nets, he's willing to learn and it's just awesome to see India has a pacer of that calibre, it's just tremendous," said Lara about the 22-year-old player from Jammu and Kashmir.

Now as the tournament proceeds, another promising Indian talent has expressed to hit the 150 kmph. 25-year-old Rajasthan Royals pacer Kuldeep Sen, who played a huge role in his side's 29-run win over Royal Challengers Bangalore on Tuesday evening, feels he is on the right path and will soon be hitting the 150 kmph mark.

"150 kmph is on the way. I am somewhere around it right now," said Sen during his post-match discussion with Riyan Parag.

Sen picked four wickets in the clash in the 3.3 overs he bowled and conceded just 20 runs as RCB were bundled out for 115 while chasing a paltry 145.

Speaking about his performance, the 25-year-old added: “During the first 3-4 overs, I was talking to Sanju (Sanju Samson). He told me that it was not easy to score runs on this wicket. Every time I came to bowl, I thought of hitting hard lengths.”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...ock-150-kmph-in-ipl-2022-101651064331912.html

 

[Front Foot Pull]

skiddy indian pacers outplaying the visiting pacers in india. bowling pace in india is a skill in itself.