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How does New Zealand pick wickets with the new ball on flat tracks? Why can't Pakistan do the same?

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adil79

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So, every now and then PPers say that England has flat wickets and what not.

Now, why does NZ pacers pick up wickets? Why do they get swing and our bowlers don't?

Why are they reliable? Why haven't we developed our bowlers to that point, so that they can pick wickets with new ball?

See how the ball has upright seam,
See how they are smooth with action,
See how they have great pace.

Must not be because of their bowling coach. I mean, Boult & Southee were always this much lethal. Or, is it the opposite?

Capture111.PNGCapture3333.PNGCapture22222.PNG
 
Do yourself a favor & watch this match. Can our fast bowlers find any swing with new ball on these pitches? This is the first outing for NZ and look how lethal they are with new balls. While, we use new balls with wobbly seam & cross seam & spray around with no strategy.
 
1. It's not a flat track
2. Trent Boult is in a different league than any other new ball bowler let alone Pakistanis
3. English bowlers didn't pick up any wickets either against Pakistan

Stop comparing everything to Pakistan's performance. We haven't been a good enough team for a while, hence why we cannot be comparing ourselves to quality teams or players.
 
Shaddy86 said:
1. It's not a flat track
2. Trent Boult is in a different league than any other new ball bowler let alone Pakistanis
3. English bowlers didn't pick up any wickets either against Pakistan

Stop comparing everything to Pakistan's performance. We haven't been a good enough team for a while, hence why we cannot be comparing ourselves to quality teams or players.
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2) got smashed in the UAE.
 
Shaddy86 said:
1. It's not a flat track
2. Trent Boult is in a different league than any other new ball bowler let alone Pakistanis
3. English bowlers didn't pick up any wickets either against Pakistan

Stop comparing everything to Pakistan's performance. We haven't been a good enough team for a while, hence why we cannot be comparing ourselves to quality teams or players.
Click to expand...

Don't mix flat track with early conditions. England have always a bit of moisture early in innings.
 
Only bowler who used to come close to Boult was Amir.

But I reckon he is finished.

All my hopes for early strikes are on Shaheen, but he is still learning.

I’d try Hasnain and Shaheen opening the bowling with Hasan as first change against Bangladesh to fare how they do with the new ball.
 
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Look how close his release is to the stumps. NZ bowling coach has probably nothing to do with this
 
Boult is pure class. Best bowler in the world for years( sorry mitchell starc and bumra fans but true)
Amir needs to bowl close to the stumps, have an upright seam (pointing at 10 or 2 clock depending on inswing or outswing) and not a wobbly seam, and pitch the ball up yes he may go for runs but he may actually start taking wickets again.
 
Jill Sandwich™ said:
Because Pakistani bowlers are mediocre at best, even Sri Lanka and Bangladesh have got better bowling attacks.
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When Pak Bowling Unit clicks in this WC, you will see a different Pak Team. We are getting there, Amir bowled decently, wahab did well, shaheen seems to be lacking confidence right now. We will find our bowling doing good soon.
 
BD Tigers said:
Dont know about Sri Lanka but we certainly have
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Is this a joke? You were battered and humiliated in South Africa. The WI you lot beat, so did we home and away very easily. Your bowling is as garbage as ours. Ours have atleast won us something.
 
Pakistan bowlers have traditionally been terrible at utilising the new ball. Once in a while you will get one comes along who understands the art. Wasim Akram was decent, so was Aqib Javed. Waqar, not so much. Pak bowlers are used to waiting for the older ball to start reversing, then they become lethal.

Watch the current batch of Pakistan pacers, most of them struggle to bowl straight with a new ball, they end up scrambling the seam to maintain some control.
 
Of recent bowlers who can use the seam, Rao Iftikhar Anjum was decent although he bowled medium pace like Abbas. Umar Gul was good for a couple of years as well before he went off the rails.

The current bunch don't even bowl at the stumps. The tv analysts were showing that more than 90% of the balls delivered by the pace bowlers were missing the stumps yesterday. With a new ball if you hold the seam up and bowl straight you will probably get some movement.
 
Anyone considered the fact that conditions are not the same as they were in the recent EngvPak series?
 
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One of the reason bumrah is number 1. Just look at the seam and the execution of perfect yorker. It was bowled to left hander over the wicket by bumrah. I wonder why our bowlers don't got their wrists right or the swing these past 2 years? Probably explain our lack of wickets with new ball and 10 odis lost on the trott
 
Mueez said:
I’d try Hasnain and Shaheen opening the bowling with Hasan as first change against Bangladesh to fare how they do with the new ball.
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How can we expect to win anything when we're opening the bowling with two of the most inexperienced bowlers at a World Cup.
 
MenInG said:
Anyone considered the fact that conditions are not the same as they were in the recent EngvPak series?
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I am basing my view on watching Pakistan bowling with the new ball for the past six months or so. I think there are statistics which show they have one of the poorest records of getting wickets in the first ten overs of all the leading sides.
 
Well until 2 weeks ago we were still opening the bowling with Faheem Ashraf. Our captain still doesn't seem to have faith in our best opening bowler, Hasan Ali.
 
aloo paratha said:
Well until 2 weeks ago we were still opening the bowling with Faheem Ashraf. Our captain still doesn't seem to have faith in our best opening bowler, Hasan Ali.
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Hasan Ali was rubbish with the new ball as well when he got it in the games against England.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Of recent bowlers who can use the seam, Rao Iftikhar Anjum was decent although he bowled medium pace like Abbas. Umar Gul was good for a couple of years as well before he went off the rails.

The current bunch don't even bowl at the stumps. The tv analysts were showing that more than 90% of the balls delivered by the pace bowlers were missing the stumps yesterday. With a new ball if you hold the seam up and bowl straight you will probably get some movement.
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Muhammad Asif was also very good with new ball.
 
Jill Sandwich™;10272525 said:
What has your world class bowling attack done in the last 12 matches? Oh yes, lost all of them and in the process went for 6+ RPO in most of them.
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Who has called this bowling attack "world class?"

Do yourself a favour and stop generalising. We know this is the most inept and poorest bowling unit we've had for decades, no-one in their right mind would call them world class.
 
Afhan Ali said:
Muhammad Asif was also very good with new ball.
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Indeed. Actually even Junaid can be useful with it, that is why he was selected for the initial world cup squad I suspect. The problem for all these guys is that they are medium pace, so if they don't take wickets with the new ball, they become liabilities later on in the game, because once the ball is old, they are canon fodder for quality batsmen.
 
The excuses just never end for Pakistan. We were told how slow were the UAE pitches and how hard was it to bat on them then we saw how easy it was for the Indian and Australian batsmen to score runs on those pitches.

Now a similar excuse has been presented for English pitches and Pakistan’s inept bowling. The likes of Boult, Starc, Cummins, etc will wreak havoc on the same pitches.

Pakistan is just a mediocre team, we must accept it. It has nothing to with conditions or pitches.

Both India and Sri Lanka exposed Pakistan’s toothless bowling in South Africa.
 
Swing has nothing to do with the nature of the track. It depends on weather conditions and the skill of the bowler.

It’s a skill. Our bowlers have lost the new ball bowling skills. Stop blaming the pitches.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Hasan Ali was rubbish with the new ball as well when he got it in the games against England.
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He got 5 overs in total, you're going to use 5 overs as your sample size to judge a player? In one game he bowled 3 overs for 13, in the other he bowled 2 overs for 16. That's not rubbish considering the types of pitches we played on. He bowled very well with the new ball in the PSL, I have no doubt that if we stick with him with the new ball, he will take wickets, especially since the pitches in the world cup will be a lot better than those of 1-2 weeks ago.
 
Pakistani bowlers need to find the out swing going to get edges... the classic art of new ball out swing... very under rated...
 
The pitch had a bit of grass on it and ball was swinging.New Zealand bowlers are very good at swinging the ball.Our bowlers can't swing the ball. They don't know what length to bowl at.I am watching Eng vs Aus warm match.The Australian bowlers are not express but they are bowling in good areas and troubling batsmen.Starc and Cummins are not even playing.
 
As per commentators , Kohli knew it was a bowler friendly wicket but he opted to bat first to give his batsmen valuable practice to bat under difficult conditions, as it was just a warm up game.
 
Well they failed to take advantage of the chance then. I don’t see them spending much time on the crease. So that plan didn’t work.
 
Conditions were conducive. Trent Boult is world no.2 ranked bowler who is probably the best swing option in swinging conditions. He has proved against almost all the teams he has played against. Not sure any other team has this option. Probably Anderson can do. But he doesn't play one dayers.
 
Trent Boult and Starc are the best new bowl bowlers in the world as far as ODI's are concerned. They have natural swing, Starc has that extra zip with pace while Boult can utilize seam very well.
5-6 years ago, Steyn was sitting in the top spot.
Rabada is very good as well, but he is the overall package, he can be a bit wayward with the new ball at times in ODI's and T20is.

Kemar Roach and Junaid Khan were very promising back in 2011-14 period. Roach suffered that horrible accident after which he lost considerable amount of pace and Junaid had that knee injury. Amir back in 2009-10 was also extremely good with the new ball.

While Junaid might be past the age to get his pace back upto 140+kph, Amir still has 2-3 years to get to that peak fitness level that were maintained by Steyn, Walsh, Johnson, Imran Khan for a good period of time.
But I don't think Amir has the hunger or self belief left in him to go an extra mile to get to those fitness levels. He lost 15 kph of pace atleast and his pace goes down even more if he is playing Tests.
 
Where are of all you crying about pitches now lol? NZ bowling attack is just better. Boult is better than any bowler in Pakistan. We don't have the quality to compete with the top teams on flat pitches.
 
Hasan123 said:
Where are of all you crying about pitches now lol? NZ bowling attack is just better. Boult is better than any bowler in Pakistan. We don't have the quality to compete with the top teams on flat pitches.
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On dead pitches even he looks helpless. Have u forgotten how he got thrashed by Fakhar in the 2nd and 3rd odi in 2018??
 
Ronaldo7 said:
On dead pitches even he looks helpless. Have u forgotten how he got thrashed by Fakhar in the 2nd and 3rd odi in 2018??
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NZ have flat pitches and he has performed plenty of times there.

Yes 1 performance against Pakistan means he is rubbish on flat pitches.
 
Hasan123 said:
Where are of all you crying about pitches now lol? NZ bowling attack is just better. Boult is better than any bowler in Pakistan. We don't have the quality to compete with the top teams on flat pitches.
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This wasn't a flat wicket. CDG was hooping it around like Anderson too. But yeah, he is lethal when he gets it right.
 
Hasan123 said:
Wasn't impossible to score on though.
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This is an era where batsman play the line. Applicable to all teams. There are no Rahul Dravids opening the batting. Most of them are technically not adaptible. Remember how Finch and Guptill got worked over by Shami with his incoming deliveries. They don't have a second line of defense. Any hint of movement they are going to be exposed. Rohit sharma despite being a successful ODI opener is not a natural opener in Tests or first class. So he is not going to be good against moving balls. Dhawan although is a natural opener has still question marks against moving balls. Kohli atleast tried something different to see that spell off only to get bowled by CDG. Mind you not all bowlers are capable of exploiting this surface. On the same surface Ferguson didn't get any purchase.
 
Chokli said:
How can we expect to win anything when we're opening the bowling with two of the most inexperienced bowlers at a World Cup.
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We need Amir to get back his old form, otherwise we are in a big mess regarding our bowling.
 
Capturewqwq.jpg

While i was watching our game with afghanistan, look at the seam of Hassan from Afghanistan. At least we can do better than Afghanistan in getting the basics right, to get early swing with new ball? or is that too much of a big ask?
 
Remember Trent Boult is on a different level to anything we have at the moment.
 
Boult is a fantastic bowler, taking nothing away from him, but that pitch was not flat in any way. In fact there was a fair bit of grass on the surface, and the conditions were quite overcast. I would expect the likes of Amir and Shaheen to get movement in these types of conditions too.
 
Stewie said:
Pakistani bowlers need to find the out swing going to get edges... the classic art of new ball out swing... very under rated...
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Aqib Javed was a master at this, and in more recent history Rao Iftikhar and Rana Naved were picked specifically for their ability in this regard. Bob Woolmer brought Rao into the team where Pakistani selectors would probably have overlooked him for lack of pace. That said, he had the same problem as other medium pacers in that he was a liability once the shine was off the ball.

That said, the Aussie death bowler Stoinis was barely medium pace, but England couldn't get him away just because he was pitching in awkward areas and mixing up deliveries cleverly. Makes it even more pathetic that Pak medium pacers bowl so stupidly.
 
Notice how Boult has improved his game:

Capture112.jpgCapture111.jpg

Gone for runs, but still trying to pick wickets. Which is his job
 
And he got one warning, for running on pitch. So, thats clear indication he gets as close to stumps while releasing as possible which makes it difficult for him to leave
 
Shaddy86 said:
1. It's not a flat track
2. Trent Boult is in a different league than any other new ball bowler let alone Pakistanis
3. English bowlers didn't pick up any wickets either against Pakistan

Stop comparing everything to Pakistan's performance. We haven't been a good enough team for a while, hence why we cannot be comparing ourselves to quality teams or players.
Click to expand...

Good reality check post
 
NZ have outstanding pace bowlers, especially in ODIs. It's their batting which is substandard. I don't know why OP is comparing with our sling merchants.
 
Three words - Accuracy, Pace and Consistency

That’s the difference - for whatever talent and skills the current Pakistani pace bowlers have , what they don’t do well is bowl consistently in terms of pace and accuracy — if you see the pitch map where they show where the balls were delivered, usually with the Pakistani quicks they are all over the place, no consistency in line or length, and same with speeds. One minute they are easing it through at 145kph and a couple of overs later they are huffing and puffing to get to 135kph.

Root cause? Fitness and lack of practice I would imagine. Accuracy and control only come from practice and lots of it until you get it right.. there’s no shortcuts I’m afraid.
 
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