How long ago did Adam come to the Earth? Why did humans stay in the Stone Age for 95% of their time?

[slipcatch]

You keep on repeating that but Atheism is not a religion or belief and is in fact the exact opposite of it.

atheism
/ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

In fact I think most people arguing against organized religions here are anti theists, i,e the lack of belief in religion (the established ones, anyway) all together.

Atheist aren't organised group of people who believe in discredit religion?

 

[hussain.r97]

Why do we assume that Adam was literally the first man? Perhaps Adam was the first modern/intelligent being, evolved from unintelligent beings?

It is very hard to deny evolution, I don't understand why people think it either has to be creation or evolution? Why can't evolution be a process that God uses to create?

If we bring evolution into, this perhaps the story of Adam is entirely metaphorical, and the reason Adam and Eve started covering their body with leaves is because the story is actually a metaphor for Adam being the first intelligent being, that has shame, in contrast to an unintelligent animal. If we assume that Adam was actually the first modern being, then the whole thing starts to make a lot more sense.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Ahmadi Muslims also believe that Adam came only 6000 years ago and whole age of the earth is only 7000 years


[MENTION=145569]Angrez Pakistani[/MENTION], are you an Ahmadi Muslim?

Anyhow, Ahmadi Muslims also don't have any escape door. Even if they keep on claiming that Adam was not the first human, while their own books are proving without any doubt that the total age of the earth is not more than 7,000 years.

So, what would you do with these Sahih (authentic Ahadith) of 7,000 years when according to science this earth is about 4.8 million years old?

Think it’s talking about the time between Adam and now. It doesn’t say that he was the first man as far as I can see from the excerpt. It also acknowledges that there is no clear time stamp on such things and we would only be speculating about the age of humanity.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Why do we assume that Adam was literally the first man? Perhaps Adam was the first modern/intelligent being, evolved from unintelligent beings?

It is very hard to deny evolution, I don't understand why people think it either has to be creation or evolution? Why can't evolution be a process that God uses to create?

If we bring evolution into, this perhaps the story of Adam is entirely metaphorical, and the reason Adam and Eve started covering their body with leaves is because the story is actually a metaphor for Adam being the first intelligent being, that has shame, in contrast to an unintelligent animal. If we assume that Adam was actually the first modern being, then the whole thing starts to make a lot more sense.

We shouldn’t even assume that he was the first intellectually modern man. If we are to believe that he was the first of the long line of messengers then there is also a need to recognise that the message was sent to those who could comprehend such a divine message. It’s just a guess.

 

[Azmi]

Think it’s talking about the time between Adam and now. It doesn’t say that he was the first man as far as I can see from the excerpt. It also acknowledges that there is no clear time stamp on such things and we would only be speculating about the age of humanity.

I am afraid you don't understand that your assumptions could not work even if you declare Adam for not being the first human on the earth, while according to Ahadith this his Ahmadi book mentioned:

(1) The Total life of the planet Earth is 7,000 years, after which the Qayammat comes and all things will be destroyed.

(2) And 6,000 years of this world had already been passed since Adam came to the earth.

(3) And now only 1,000 years remain.

(4) But science is refuting this claim of earth's total age being 7,000 years, while according to the science already age of the earth is 4.8 Billion years.

Please read it once again carefully to understand:

 

[Azmi]

Can Science disprove or prove that God exit?

Science does not need to prove or disprove god directly.

But if science proves that the stories from that god are wrong scientifically, then that god automatically becomes a false deity.

Same thing is happening in case of stories of Islamic Allah, the Hindu gods, the Greek gods, the Abrahamic God.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I am afraid you don't understand that your assumptions could not work even if you declare Adam for not being the first human on the earth, while according to Ahadith this his Ahmadi book mentioned:

(1) The Total life of the planet Earth is 7,000 years, after which the Qayammat comes and all things will be destroyed.

(2) And 6,000 years of this world had already been passed since Adam came to the earth.

(3) And now only 1,000 years remain.

(4) But science is refuting this claim of earth's total age being 7,000 years, while according to the science already age of the earth is 4.8 Billion years.

Please read it once again carefully to understand:

Perhaps you can highlight the point where it says that human beings are only 7000 years old.

 

[Azmi]

Perhaps you can highlight the point where it says that human beings are only 7000 years old.

I am writing the desired text from this image into Urdu with comments in the brackets from my side in order to make things more clear to you.

اور دوسری بڑی دلیل زمانے کے آخری ہونے پر یہ ہے کہ قرآن شریف کی سورۃ عصر سے معلوم ہوتا ہے کہ ہمارا یہ زمانہ حضرت آدم علیہ السلام سے ہزار ششم ( 6 ہزار سال) پر واقع ہے۔ یعنی حضرت آدم علیہ السلام کی پیدائش سے یہ چھٹا ہزار سال جاتا ہے۔ اور ایسا ہی احادیث صحیحہ سے ثابت ہے کہ آدم سے لے کر اخیر (قیامت کی وجہ سے دنیا کے آخر ختم ہونے) تک دنیا کی عمر سات ہزار سال ہے۔

حکیم ترمذی نے نوادر الاصول میں ابو ہریرہ سے روایت کی ہے کہ رسول خدا صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم نے فرمایا کہ دنیا کی (کُل) عمر سات ہزار سال ہے (جس کے بعد قیامت آ جائے گی اور دنیا ختم ہو جائے گی)۔ اور انس بن مالک سے روایت ہے کہ جو شخص اللہ کی راہ میاک مسلمان کی حاجت براری کرے اس کے لئے دنیا کی عمر کے اندازہ پر دن کو روزہ رکھنا اور رات کو عبادت کرنا لکھا جاتا ہے، اور دنیا کی (کُل) عمر سات ہزار سال ہے۔ دیکھو تاریخ ابن عساکر۔

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I am writing the desired text from this image into Urdu with comments in the brackets from my side in order to make things more clear to you.

اور دوسری بڑی دلیل زمانے کے آخری ہونے پر یہ ہے کہ قرآن شریف کی سورۃ عصر سے معلوم ہوتا ہے کہ ہمارا یہ زمانہ حضرت آدم علیہ السلام سے ہزار ششم ( 6 ہزار سال) پر واقع ہے۔ یعنی حضرت آدم علیہ السلام کی پیدائش سے یہ چھٹا ہزار سال جاتا ہے۔ اور ایسا ہی احادیث صحیحہ سے ثابت ہے کہ آدم سے لے کر اخیر (قیامت کی وجہ سے دنیا کے آخر ختم ہونے) تک دنیا کی عمر سات ہزار سال ہے۔

حکیم ترمذی نے نوادر الاصول میں ابو ہریرہ سے روایت کی ہے کہ رسول خدا صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم نے فرمایا کہ دنیا کی (کُل) عمر سات ہزار سال ہے (جس کے بعد قیامت آ جائے گی اور دنیا ختم ہو جائے گی)۔ اور انس بن مالک سے روایت ہے کہ جو شخص اللہ کی راہ میاک مسلمان کی حاجت براری کرے اس کے لئے دنیا کی عمر کے اندازہ پر دن کو روزہ رکھنا اور رات کو عبادت کرنا لکھا جاتا ہے، اور دنیا کی (کُل) عمر سات ہزار سال ہے۔ دیکھو تاریخ ابن عساکر۔

A) The narrative on the end of time is more nuanced than it might appear. It is often repeatedly said that we live in the end of times. In other words, considering the overall age of the earth, the decaying process of the earth is far longer than any single moment in time. By saying that we live in the end of time what is actually meant here is the process of the end of the world is triggered.
B) You would be interested to know that in the Arab world at that time, the numerals ran out very quickly. So if someone at that time said that the world was 7000 years old, the underlying principle was that the world was old beyond anyone’s imagination and by association of 7000 years it was about strengthening the claim that it was very old.
Anyway, I would not take a religious book on its face value because a lot the times it is riddled with hyperboles and metaphors. Similarly, contextualising these books is important and without doing that we are bound to have rigidity within the religions or a total lack of faith among the followers and the outsiders alike.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Anyone who claims to be God or Spoken to God or Angels etc..

India never had any prophets. I do not believe in Indian Mythology. I am a skeptic when it comes to Religion and claims of God men.

Agreed. I would say that it is following yogis and billions of imaginary gods has kept India backwards, and is a main reason why they still have slums rather than orderly and clean dwelling locations like the Godless Chinese.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Islam is like a vicious circle. Parents get older, one foot in the grave and are told that their children's prayers will/can save them from hellfire, no wonder the indoctrination and brainwashing begins early.

 

[Azmi]

A) The narrative on the end of time is more nuanced than it might appear. It is often repeatedly said that we live in the end of times. In other words, considering the overall age of the earth, the decaying process of the earth is far longer than any single moment in time. By saying that we live in the end of time what is actually meant here is the process of the end of the world is triggered.

In my opinion, this assumption does not fits the clear words of the Hadith.

B) You would be interested to know that in the Arab world at that time, the numerals ran out very quickly. So if someone at that time said that the world was 7000 years old, the underlying principle was that the world was old beyond anyone’s imagination and by association of 7000 years it was about strengthening the claim that it was very old.

Again context of the hadith makes it impossible to come up to this conclusion in my opinion.

Anyway, I would not take a religious book on its face value because a lot the times it is riddled with hyperboles and metaphors. Similarly, contextualising these books is important and without doing that we are bound to have rigidity within the religions or a total lack of faith among the followers and the outsiders alike.

With this type of reasoning, even if Allah himself appears from somewhere, and tells that Islam is wrong, and he made a false statement scientifically, still you could deny Allah himself.

 

[troodon]

Agreed. I would say that it is following yogis and billions of imaginary gods has kept India backwards, and is a main reason why they still have slums rather than orderly and clean dwelling locations like the Godless Chinese.

Religion and inability to adapt to changing world. Too much population and too superstitious and brainless rituals sometimes.

Most Godmen turn out to be frauds and we see them getting busted everyday. I hope people stop following these Godmen who seem to talk to God through a direct phone line connection. Nicely shown in PK movie.

 

[slipcatch]

Science does not need to prove or disprove god directly.

But if science proves that the stories from that god are wrong scientifically, then that god automatically becomes a false deity.

Same thing is happening in case of stories of Islamic Allah, the Hindu gods, the Greek gods, the Abrahamic God.

Which 'stories' has science are wrong scientifically?

 

[slipcatch]

Islam is like a vicious circle. Parents get older, one foot in the grave and are told that their children's prayers will/can save them from hellfire, no wonder the indoctrination and brainwashing begins early.

Every aspect of life is some form of indoctrination.

You have been indoctrinated to dislike anyone who believe in Religion. Another form of hate.

 

[tonmoy]

Which 'stories' has science are wrong scientifically?

Moon splitting into two (from Quran)
Sun setting into the muddy spring (from Quran 18:86)
Black Cumin seeds is a cure for all disease as claimed by the prophet (from hadith, NOT quran)
Allah created man directly from dust/clay/altered black mud!! (From Quran)

etc etc etc..
I am sure there are many many more... some already discussed here

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Every aspect of life is some form of indoctrination.

You may have a point but rows of kids rocking back and forth reading a language they don't understand for two hours every school night is institutionalised brainwashing. Imagine what those kids could achieve in the 10 hours if week instead of indoctrination.

You have been indoctrinated to dislike anyone who believe in Religion. Another form of hate.

And you my friend don't know what you are talking about, that would include all my family and vast majority of my friends. If there is a negative emotion towards religious folks, it is pity.

Pity that my elderly steadfast parents day is controlled by namaaz timetable, in summer they have to wait till past eleven to sleep, the undue pressure fasting puts upon them, sure they don't have to keep them but they're Muslims.

 

[DeadBall]

Atheist aren't organised group of people who believe in discredit religion?

No they aren't an organised group of people on the scale of religion, there maybe a few small groups, clubs, alliances here and there but then you are bound to find such a group on almost about everything. There are no literature, rules, guidelines that an atheist has to follow and there can be from any race, background, caste, creed etc.

To reiterate, Atheism is simply a lack in belief in the existence of God(s).

 

[Devilsadvokat]

No they aren't an organised group of people on the scale of religion, there maybe a few small groups, clubs, alliances here and there but then you are bound to find such a group on almost about everything. There are no literature, rules, guidelines that an atheist has to follow and there can be from any race, background, caste, creed etc.

To reiterate, Atheism is simply a lack in belief in the existence of God(s).

It's like saying all non stamp collectors belong in one group.

 

[DeadBall]

No they aren't an organised group of people on the scale of religion, there maybe a few small groups, clubs, alliances here and there but then you are bound to find such a group on almost about everything. There are no literature, rules, guidelines that an atheist has to follow and there can be from any race, background, caste, creed etc.

To reiterate, Atheism is simply a lack in belief in the existence of God(s).

Also Atheism isn't spoon fed like religion since birth and actually takes a lot of self reflection, research, etc to reach to that stage of thinking (regardless of the consequences, like being ostracized by family, loved ones, society) . In fact especially in Islam most of the atheists I know were very well versed in Islam and tried everything to believe in it and make sens out of it. I myself studied Fiqh in Makkah under a very knowledgeable scholar for 2 years apart from having grown into a very religious family (My mother is a very respected religious figure in Dubai), as as most of my family very religious.

I actually studied religion to debate with the non religious to make them see the light but the more I learned the more I doubted, also I traveled a lot which opened my eyes a lot and made me the person I am today. If one stays in a similar surrounding without neutral input or stimuli, with the same rhetoric being pumped into the brain everyday then it is very hard to think rationally.

 

[Syed1]

Don't understand why people love to discuss their religiosity (or lack off). Basic tenet of religion is that it is your connection to God. So keep it personal and don't shove it down people's throats. This goes for both people who are religiously inclined or lack religion.

 

[slipcatch]

Also Atheism isn't spoon fed like religion since birth and actually takes a lot of self reflection, research, etc to reach to that stage of thinking (regardless of the consequences, like being ostracized by family, loved ones, society) . In fact especially in Islam most of the atheists I know were very well versed in Islam and tried everything to believe in it and make sens out of it. I myself studied Fiqh in Makkah under a very knowledgeable scholar for 2 years apart from having grown into a very religious family (My mother is a very respected religious figure in Dubai), as as most of my family very religious.

I actually studied religion to debate with the non religious to make them see the light but the more I learned the more I doubted, also I traveled a lot which opened my eyes a lot and made me the person I am today. If one stays in a similar surrounding without neutral input or stimuli, with the same rhetoric being pumped into the brain everyday then it is very hard to think rationally.

Good for you in that you believe what you want to believe as it is your personal choice.

There are countless scientists, doctors, engineer who have excel in their field and are pious muslim, so the argument that atheist make that it is one way thinking is false. Islam does not stop anyone from excelling in their respective fields or science.

I do not care if someone is atheist or religious as it is always a personal choice.

What is hypocrite that atheist preaching their school of thoughts while accusing other for preaching theirs.

An atheist parent would teach their kids against belief in GOD and a religious parent would teach their kids their respective religion. You can't change that.

So debate about religion is always a debate in circle, and anyone would incline to believe in what they would want to believe.

 

[Azmi]

Don't understand why people love to discuss their religiosity (or lack off). Basic tenet of religion is that it is your connection to God. So keep it personal and don't shove it down people's throats. This goes for both people who are religiously inclined or lack religion.

It is known as the right to preach and the right to criticize.

There is absolutely no harm in debating, preaching or criticizing. Discussions bring the knowledge and help all to understand each other.

Harm comes only when someone starts to impose his ideology by force. Or try to snatch the rights from others to criticize.

Therefore, there should be no ban and prohibition upon the discussions, preaching or criticism, but people should learn how to discuss things and don't get angry when they are criticized.

 

[slipcatch]

You may have a point but rows of kids rocking back and forth reading a language they don't understand for two hours every school night is institutionalised brainwashing. Imagine what those kids could achieve in the 10 hours if week instead of indoctrination.


Islam suppose to be understood. so this argument is an immature argument.


And you my friend don't know what you are talking about, that would include all my family and vast majority of my friends. If there is a negative emotion towards religious folks, it is pity.

Pity that my elderly steadfast parents day is controlled by namaaz timetable, in summer they have to wait till past eleven to sleep, the undue pressure fasting puts upon them, sure they don't have to keep them but they're Muslims.

This statement is filled with ignorance, you believe you are better and anyone who decided to have belief is beneath you.

regards

 

[tonmoy]

What is hypocrite that atheist preaching their school of thoughts while accusing other for preaching theirs.

I only preach that people make sense and not resort to violence based on some nonsense.

Lets say the following quote from Dawkins.
Creator of the Universe went to great trouble to create the foreskin. Then insisted that you cut it off. Makes sense ???
- Richard Dawkins

 

[slipcatch]

No they aren't an organised group of people on the scale of religion, there maybe a few small groups, clubs, alliances here and there but then you are bound to find such a group on almost about everything. There are no literature, rules, guidelines that an atheist has to follow and there can be from any race, background, caste, creed etc.

To reiterate, Atheism is simply a lack in belief in the existence of God(s).

But they are. Just because the scale isn't similar that does not make they are 'not organized'

 

[slipcatch]

I only preach that people make sense and not resort to violence based on some nonsense.

Lets say the following quote from Dawkins.
Creator of the Universe went to great trouble to create the foreskin. Then insisted that you cut it off. Makes sense ???
- Richard Dawkins

who has on this forum resorted to violence?

You are preaching again to not belief in religion as that is their personal choice to believe or not.

 

[DeadBall]

An atheist parent would teach their kids against belief in GOD and a religious parent would teach their kids their respective religion. You can't change that.

Not true and I know that of many of the Atheist parents (either one or both) too. I have told my daughter she can believe or not believe whatever she wants. She has had her religious phases (mostly spiritual) and she has discussed with me regarding my beliefs or lack of which I have explained but have also said that she should do her own research and make her own decisions. Although due to the amount of information currently available and her age she is mostly non religious.

My wife is a Christian Orthodox European and we both agreed that we wouldn't enforce our beliefs on her. Although we do celebrate, Christmas, Easter and Eid so that she doesn't feel culturally and traditionally outcast from the rest.

 

[tonmoy]

who has on this forum resorted to violence?

You are preaching again to not belief in religion as that is their personal choice to believe or not.

Why "On this forum" ?
when did I say "on this forum"?


I am just stating that Creator of the Universe went to great trouble to create the foreskin. Then insisted that you cut it off.

There are many religion that lets you keep your foreskin, does that mean I am preaching those religion ?

 

[DeadBall]

But they are. Just because the scale isn't similar that does not make they are 'not organized'

There are also groups of people who believe in Unicorns, people who collect buttons, people who like knitting etc. As I said if you were to look you will find a group of people with similar interests forming an alliance no matter what the subject.

The scale isn't similar either as I mentioned as you cannot compare something with millions or billions of followers with hundreds or thousands.

 

[Azmi]

But they are. Just because the scale isn't similar that does not make they are 'not organized'

No, they are not. It is not even about the scale, but it the voice of humanity in you, which will automatically guide you to some conclusions.

For example, I was a strict believing Muslim, but humanity in me was at that time to guiding me without any doubt that if non Muslims are allowed to enter into Islam, then is should also be allowed for the Muslims to leave Islam without being killed in name of Irtadad.

There is at least no Organisation of Atheists present in Pakistan. I knew no atheist when I became doubtful of Islam. I left Islam at my own. There are tons of such ex-Muslim Atheists who were guided directly by their rationale. They were able to see the clash between the Science and Islam.

At moment atheism is the fastest spreading ideology in the world. Islam is no where near atheism.

Muslim countries and Muslims donates Billions of Dollars every year for the religion, Madaris, Tableegh etc. There are millions of Muslim students studying in the schools etc to become the Islamic Scholars and then spread Islam.

As compared to that, there is no Atheist organisation which has own Schools for producing the atheist scholars. We are all self made scholars.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I only preach that people make sense and not resort to violence based on some nonsense.

Lets say the following quote from Dawkins.
Creator of the Universe went to great trouble to create the foreskin. Then insisted that you cut it off. Makes sense ???
- Richard Dawkins

Who can say what makes sense? Even without the Creator's insistence men and women are getting their nipples pierced, drilling ink into their skin and sticking metal poles through their tongues. Mankind is a curious beast, and perhaps beyond Richard Dawkin's perception of sense and sensibility alas.

 

[DeadBall]

But they are. Just because the scale isn't similar that does not make they are 'not organized'

I concur. You have foiled the plot of the 200 odd members of the organised "Atheists whose favorite color is blue" militia going on a crusade to peacefully spread their religion by the sword. Good job exposing them.

 

[DeadBall]

Who can say what makes sense? Even without the Creator's insistence men and women are getting their nipples pierced, drilling ink into their skin and sticking metal poles through their tongues. Mankind is a curious beast, and perhaps beyond Richard Dawkin's perception of sense and sensibility alas.

What a person does to their own body is their right. Sense and Sensibility does not mean you cannot pierce/tattoo yourself if you wish to. It's just you who perceives it as curious because how you were brought up. Drilling Ink and sticking metal poles have been the bedrock of most civilizations, be it to intimidate, ornate etc.

Mankind is indeed a curious beast but not in the way you portray it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What a person does to their own body is their right. Sense and Sensibility does not mean you cannot pierce/tattoo yourself if you wish to. It's just you who perceives it as curious because how you were brought up. Drilling Ink and sticking metal poles have been the bedrock of most civilizations, be it to intimidate, ornate etc.

Mankind is indeed a curious beast but not in the way you portray it.

It wasn't my portrayal that desecration of the flesh made no sense.

 

[gazza619]

A fascinating thread. I wonder how humans evolved to be so different. The black, the white, the brown, the chinese etc.

Did God send an Adam in each continent and all of them were different to each other?

 

[notAgainPlease]

I have a personal theory.

Adam came 6000 years ago in current human form. Before that Allah sent lot of other man-like creatures for thousands of years. Ever wondered why Satan declined to obey Adam and said to Allah "Have you not seen of earlier creatures you created mischef and wthat they did on? Satan was pointing to those 200K years worth creatures otherwise he had no reason to say no to Adam.

 

[Azmi]

Who can say what makes sense? Even without the Creator's insistence men and women are getting their nipples pierced, drilling ink into their skin and sticking metal poles through their tongues. Mankind is a curious beast, and perhaps beyond Richard Dawkin's perception of sense and sensibility alas.

Individual humans and their activities regarding their personal lives may be out of perception, but when it comes to collective works (like laws for the society), then they could never be beyond perception, but they should always make sense.
And gods works always lie in the circle of this collective work, and thus it should always make clear sense.

But if humanity in us guide us that works/laws of gods are going towards wrong direction, and making no sense, then here starts the problems with gods.

 

[Azmi]

A fascinating thread. I wonder how humans evolved to be so different. The black, the white, the brown, the chinese etc.

Did God send an Adam in each continent and all of them were different to each other?

Japanese/Chinese have their4th or 5th generations in US. And the height of this 5th generation has increased and especially their EYES are now much wider than their ancestors.

Mainly it happened due to the diet.

In China/Japan, humans only drank mother milk for 2 years, and after that they never consumed any other milk of cow/sheep etc. And they also didn't consume any milk products like butter, cheese etc.

But as soon as their younger generations started eating like the Americans (especially the consumption of milk) than their height increased and also their eyes started becoming wider and they started looking more like the Americans.

Actually, today even inside China/Japan, people have started consuming milk and milk products. And as result, even in China and Japan height has started increasing and eyes becoming bigger.


Also "Sticky Rice" is believed to play role in the yellow race (face features). All the yellow race are eating this special type of sticky rice, like China, Mangolia, Japan, Thailand etc. And it is their staple food. While races with wheat as staple food have different facial features.

Then come other type of factors like humidity, temperature, vegetation, sea level, other climate features etc.


http://www.internetlooks.com/humandifferentiation.html

 

[Azmi]

I have a personal theory.

Adam came 6000 years ago in current human form. Before that Allah sent lot of other man-like creatures for thousands of years. Ever wondered why Satan declined to obey Adam and said to Allah "Have you not seen of earlier creatures you created mischef and wthat they did on? Satan was pointing to those 200K years worth creatures otherwise he had no reason to say no to Adam.

Your theory is only a conjecture, which is itself going against all the material in Quran or Hadith, which are unanimous that Adam was the first person on the earth, and that is why Eve had to be born from the ribs of Adam, and sons of Adam had to marry with the daughters of Adam (i.e. their sisters).

Had there been other humans, then there would have been no need of this incest or ribs.

In my opinion, while Quran is not divine but a human creature, therefore there are contradictions in it due to human nature. Every story teller makes such human mistakes.

For example, Islamic ideology is this that humans sin only when Satan misguides him.

Thus Adam sinned only when Satan misguided him.

But problem is this that Satan himself became devil when he refused to prostrate Adam.

How then Satan was misguiding the people before Adam on the earth, and making to to shed blood and kill each other?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Individual humans and their activities regarding their personal lives may be out of perception, but when it comes to collective works (like laws for the society), then they could never be beyond perception, but they should always make sense.
And gods works always lie in the circle of this collective work, and thus it should always make clear sense.

But if humanity in us guide us that works/laws of gods are going towards wrong direction, and making no sense, then here starts the problems with gods.

Agreed. That is why your opinion which you share with Mr Dawkins are fine as long as we recognise that your aversion to circumcision reflect your own personal views.

 

[Azmi]

Agreed. That is why your opinion which you share with Mr Dawkins are fine as long as we recognise that your aversion to circumcision reflect your own personal views.

I don't think Mr. Dawkins is questioning the individuals for their liking for circumcision, but he is asking the question about the God's wisdom, if this skin is so bad, why then God in the first place put it up on the penis? Why God becomes happy when small children undergo the operation and cry with the pain, while thousands and thousands of children in the earlier centuries died due to unhygienic conditions for such operation.

And God puts foreskin, and then says He made human according to His image. What does this mean? I am uncomfortable with such wisdom of God.

 

[tonmoy]

Who can say what makes sense? Even without the Creator's insistence men and women are getting their nipples pierced, drilling ink into their skin and sticking metal poles through their tongues. Mankind is a curious beast, and perhaps beyond Richard Dawkin's perception of sense and sensibility alas.

What are you on about?
God created us as his perfect creation and than asked us to circumcise, to cut off a piece of his creation!! That makes no sense.

That was my point!! My point was not about how humans treat their body..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Wow, so all these non_Muslims get upset when God ordains circumcision, but get ants in their pants when I mention that men and women routinely mutilate their genitals/belly buttons and tongues regardless of religion.

Apologies guys, but God isn't going to step down and answer your circumcision musings, so I am just doing my best to give some input as a forum contributor.

 

[troodon]

Wow, so all these non_Muslims get upset when God ordains circumcision, but get ants in their pants when I mention that men and women routinely mutilate their genitals/belly buttons and tongues regardless of religion.

Apologies guys, but God isn't going to step down and answer your circumcision musings, so I am just doing my best to give some input as a forum contributor.

Its a choice for Non-Muslims to get piercings etc.

Is there a choice for a young Muslim boy to opt out of circumcision?

As someone said above, why even put foreskin on the pee-pee if it was meant to be cut off? is it an error on part of God'c creation that he wants humans to rectify?

 

[tonmoy]

Its a choice for Non-Muslims to get piercings etc.

Is there a choice for a young Muslim boy to opt out of circumcision?

As someone said above, why even put foreskin on the pee-pee if it was meant to be cut off? is it an error on part of God'c creation that he wants humans to rectify?

Forget it bro... He does not get the logic of your last sentence. We tried..

 

[Musakhel]

What are you on about?
God created us as his perfect creation and than asked us to circumcise, to cut off a piece of his creation!! That makes no sense.

That was my point!! My point was not about how humans treat their body..

Flawed reasoning are you saying God has to create perfect creations every time he wills something? God creates some people healthy and with fully functioning senses and others with limitations, This is All to do with Allah will, and as Allah says in the Quran, “He is not asked about what He does to creation, but the creation is asked.” (Al-Anbiya, 23).

 

[slipcatch]

There are also groups of people who believe in Unicorns, people who collect buttons, people who like knitting etc. As I said if you were to look you will find a group of people with similar interests forming an alliance no matter what the subject.

The scale isn't similar either as I mentioned as you cannot compare something with millions or billions of followers with hundreds or thousands.

But their are groups, regardless of what the scale is, and scale doesn't exist due two reasons, not enough support and second not everyone is trying to convert religion to atheism.

Let's take an example of Muslims on this forum.

How many Muslims on this forum actively trying to convert non-muslims to Islam? not that many, probably an odd one once in a while.

Do muslims congratulate when someone converted to Islam, yea! but I am sure many Atheist would support many who would give up on religion.

You can compare anything with anything.

 

[slipcatch]

Not true and I know that of many of the Atheist parents (either one or both) too. I have told my daughter she can believe or not believe whatever she wants. She has had her religious phases (mostly spiritual) and she has discussed with me regarding my beliefs or lack of which I have explained but have also said that she should do her own research and make her own decisions. Although due to the amount of information currently available and her age she is mostly non religious.

My wife is a Christian Orthodox European and we both agreed that we wouldn't enforce our beliefs on her. Although we do celebrate, Christmas, Easter and Eid so that she doesn't feel culturally and traditionally outcast from the rest.

You said not true and then you went on saying "many", do you know every atheist? I know plenty of Muslims who do not teach very little about Islam to their kids.

So it is your personal example.

But I am sure many who promote not to believe in God as that is their personal choice.

 

[slipcatch]

I concur. You have foiled the plot of the 200 odd members of the organised "Atheists whose favorite color is blue" militia going on a crusade to peacefully spread their religion by the sword. Good job exposing them.

You are getting upset. No need to.

Not trying to expose anything as I am not on a mission to turn anyone toward God.

 

[Azmi]

Flawed reasoning are you saying God has to create perfect creations every time he wills something? God creates some people healthy and with fully functioning senses and others with limitations, This is All to do with Allah will, and as Allah says in the Quran, “He is not asked about what He does to creation, but the creation is asked.” (Al-Anbiya, 23).

These are the lame excuses by the creator of the story of God, as he didn't know how to answer these question why to create a faulty creature, why to bring a mentally abnormal child in the world, why to let this child suffer all his next 60-70 years of life where he is at full mercy of others and even unable to tell for small things/pains to others, where he had to **** and **** in his clothes.

What does God achieves by making such child suffer the pains for 60 years?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Let's take an example of Muslims on this forum.

How many Muslims on this forum actively trying to convert non-muslims to Islam? not that many, probably an odd one once in a while.

Dawah merchants abound in every city centre at weekends. It is a hobby of many Muslims, my Dad used to try and convert the Jehovah's Witnesses when they knock in the door.

Tho I must admit I do see your point, and it must be infuriating when it's not counted due to definitions. Athiest among once-Muslim probably more of a similar nature or five natures. Athiest as a whole, a lot more disparate. Their are those never taught, reared in religion but if once religious the athiest (and of course I would say this) has overcome the indoctrination and usually has a sceptical, questioning, curious mind and sees thru the story of God as Father Christmas for adults. Similar mindset perhaps. But still your point does not count in the real world.

 

[DeadBall]

But their are groups, regardless of what the scale is, and scale doesn't exist due two reasons, not enough support and second not everyone is trying to convert religion to atheism.

Let's take an example of Muslims on this forum.

How many Muslims on this forum actively trying to convert non-muslims to Islam? not that many, probably an odd one once in a while.

Do muslims congratulate when someone converted to Islam, yea! but I am sure many Atheist would support many who would give up on religion.

You can compare anything with anything.

No one is trying convert anyone into Atheism, in fact in almost all cases turning away from religion comes from critical thinking and self reflection. Most people here are just pointing out the fallacies inherent to religion be it, Islam, Christianity or any other organized religion.

Also most people who are anti religion are fed up with religion especially given how it affects society, especially Pakistani and SC when a group of Mullahs or radical elements can cause chaos, havoc, killing of innocents, destroying of property etc at the slightest excuse. or even here when the more knowledgeable posters who after doing verbal gymnastics or referencing various random sources cannot prove their claim then they either say it is as it is or that the other person will burn in hell for eternity.

I personally don't debate such topics anymore as I know it is quite pointless but there are some posts which are so audacious that I have to give my two cents. Not commenting on ignorance is the same is letting it spread.

 

[slipcatch]

No, they are not. It is not even about the scale, but it the voice of humanity in you, which will automatically guide you to some conclusions.

Muslims are human, too.

For example, I was a strict believing Muslim, but humanity in me was at that time to guiding me without any doubt that if non Muslims are allowed to enter into Islam, then is should also be allowed for the Muslims to leave Islam without being killed in name of Irtadad.

How many Muslims have tried to kill you?


There is at least no Organisation of Atheists present in Pakistan. I knew no atheist when I became doubtful of Islam. I left Islam at my own. There are tons of such ex-Muslim Atheists who were guided directly by their rationale. They were able to see the clash between the Science and Islam.

Try google, you'll find plenty of them.

It is like saying I want to go to Party but I do not have any friends.

At moment atheism is the fastest spreading ideology in the world. Islam is no where near atheism.
It may be, If people wants to then that is their choice. No one should prevent them.

Muslim countries and Muslims donates Billions of Dollars every year for the religion, Madaris, Tableegh etc. There are millions of Muslim students studying in the schools etc to become the Islamic Scholars and then spread Islam.
Because they believe in religion. Whats the big deal? Every organization in the world does that regardless of religion affiliation or not

As compared to that, there is no Atheist organisation which has own Schools for producing the atheist scholars. We are all self made scholars.
I do not get it, why would you scholars if one does not believe in belief, what would need to be explained? "There is no God"?

Regards

 

[DeadBall]

You said not true and then you went on saying "many", do you know every atheist? I know plenty of Muslims who do not teach very little about Islam to their kids.

So it is your personal example.

But I am sure many who promote not to believe in God as that is their personal choice.

I meant to say many of the Atheist parents that I know of.

 

[slipcatch]

No one is trying convert anyone into Atheism, in fact in almost all cases turning away from religion comes from critical thinking and self reflection. Most people here are just pointing out the fallacies inherent to religion be it, Islam, Christianity or any other organized religion.
Thread was created to doubt religion by an Atheist with factually incorrect info.


Also most people who are anti religion are fed up with religion especially given how it affects society, especially Pakistani and SC when a group of Mullahs or radical elements can cause chaos, havoc, killing of innocents, destroying of property etc at the slightest excuse. or even here when the more knowledgeable posters who after doing verbal gymnastics or referencing various random sources cannot prove their claim then they either say it is as it is or that the other person will burn in hell for eternity.

But they are radicalized, who were fed wrong info, now there are millions of Muslims in Pakistan who are against those Mullah, Just go on social media relating to recent events in Pakistan and on this forum. let's not try to lump everyone in one group. Find it insulting by someone who are proponent of science and critical thinking.

I personally don't debate such topics anymore as I know it is quite pointless but there are some posts which are so audacious that I have to give my two cents. Not commenting on ignorance is the same is letting it spread.

same here but like you said some radical from both side of the aisle need to be told.

Regards

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Flawed reasoning are you saying God has to create perfect creations every time he wills something? God creates some people healthy and with fully functioning senses and others with limitations, This is All to do with Allah will, and as Allah says in the Quran, “He is not asked about what He does to creation, but the creation is asked.” (Al-Anbiya, 23).

Appendix? What was that about? Backache? Why, if we're perfect. There is a nerve/summat that goes from the summat like the nose to ear but travels down to the chest, why? Cos evolution, early species on earth set the pattern.
Humans are far from perfect in design, we could have been much better.

Backache - coz we used to walk like ape apes (we are apes too). Same reason why birth canal in humans is smaller than required, hence why we give birth to young that are underdeveloped because any longer they could not exit womb. Hence why in humans we children stick so long with parents, because of the bonding of childhood making us think we are unique but all due to walking upright.

There are 5 million hair follicles in humans same as chimpanzee, except their hair is heavier and thicker.

The gene for speech is tiny, it's not major. Apes don't have it.

There's more, lots more and I will get you name of the nerve/summat which travels way way longer to get between two points, if designed by an intelligent designer.

 

[slipcatch]

Dawah merchants abound in every city centre at weekends. It is a hobby of many Muslims, my Dad used to try and convert the Jehovah's Witnesses when they knock in the door.

Tho I must admit I do see your point, and it must be infuriating when it's not counted due to definitions. Athiest among once-Muslim probably more of a similar nature or five natures. Athiest as a whole, a lot more disparate. Their are those never taught, reared in religion but if once religious the athiest (and of course I would say this) has overcome the indoctrination and usually has a sceptical, questioning, curious mind and sees thru the story of God as Father Christmas for adults. Similar mindset perhaps. But still your point does not count in the real world.

In real world.

Atheist: Religion kill

Atheist: All Muslims actively on missioin Dawah

Atheist: Why cut the foreskin.

Atheist: Every Muslims support Mullah version of Islam.

Atheist: Religion has prevented people from excelling in Science, Medicine, etc.

Atheist: Religion is bad and people who have belief are bad and ignorant.

I have no issue with Atheism, as I live in a country where there are plenty of them and I know plenty of them from Pakistan, and I have daily interaction with them, only issue I have is that when they come up with ridiculous example to discredit.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

In real world.

Atheist: Religion kill

Atheist: All Muslims actively on missioin Dawah

Atheist: Why cut the foreskin.

Atheist: Every Muslims support Mullah version of Islam.

Atheist: Religion has prevented people from excelling in Science, Medicine, etc.

Atheist: Religion is bad and people who have belief are bad and ignorant.

I have no issue with Atheism, as I live in a country where there are plenty of them and I know plenty of them from Pakistan, and I have daily interaction with them, only issue I have is that when they come up with ridiculous example to discredit.

As much as I would love further discussion tonight, I'm afraid I'm unusually busy, same time ish tomorrow ish for response. Y'all be good.

 

[troodon]

In real world.

Atheist: Religion kill

Atheist: All Muslims actively on missioin Dawah

Atheist: Why cut the foreskin.

Atheist: Every Muslims support Mullah version of Islam.

Atheist: Religion has prevented people from excelling in Science, Medicine, etc.

Atheist: Religion is bad and people who have belief are bad and ignorant.

I have no issue with Atheism, as I live in a country where there are plenty of them and I know plenty of them from Pakistan, and I have daily interaction with them, only issue I have is that when they come up with ridiculous example to discredit.

All Muslims are not on Mission Dawah. The Mullah and Madrasah types are.
Why cut the foreskin if God made you born that way. Are you trying to rectify a flaw in God's design?
I heard there is only one version of Islam. What do you mean Mullah version? You have to believe in Islam and Muhammed and the hadiths that are sahih.
Religion is all good as long as science does not go against it. The moment Science proves something that is wrong in religious books, Science becomes the word of Devil.
Religion has no place in this modern society. What you believe should be in your home. Nobody should bring it to the streets and start demanding things just because their religion says so.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

All Muslims are not on Mission Dawah. The Mullah and Madrasah types are.
Why cut the foreskin if God made you born that way. Are you trying to rectify a flaw in God's design?
I heard there is only one version of Islam. What do you mean Mullah version? You have to believe in Islam and Muhammed and the hadiths that are sahih.
Religion is all good as long as science does not go against it. The moment Science proves something that is wrong in religious books, Science becomes the word of Devil.
Religion has no place in this modern society. What you believe should be in your home. Nobody should bring it to the streets and start demanding things just because their religion says so.

In the modern and civilised world, nobody does come onto the streets demanding things because their religion says so. This happens in third world countries mostly, such as India and Pakistan.

 

[Musakhel]

These are the lame excuses by the creator of the story of God, as he didn't know how to answer these question why to create a faulty creature, why to bring a mentally abnormal child in the world, why to let this child suffer all his next 60-70 years of life where he is at full mercy of others and even unable to tell for small things/pains to others, where he had to **** and **** in his clothes.

What does God achieves by making such child suffer the pains for 60 years?

If Allah wants to make someone suffer, prove to me that it is wrong? But you know you can't.

 

[tonmoy]

Islam does prevent people from excelling in Science and Medicine.

1/Correct me if I am wrong, but a muslim cannot donate their body to Medical science. It is a big NO NO.. How do you expect to create next generation doctors if everyone on earth becomes a muslim?

2/It forces you to disbelieve evolution, carbon dating, Jurrassic triassic periods, age of the universe , how earth was created etc etc

3/ Forces you to believe in mythical creatures Giants and Jinns which has no basis or proof in Science.

 

[troodon]

In the modern and civilised world, nobody does come onto the streets demanding things because their religion says so. This happens in third world countries mostly, such as India and Pakistan.

Nah!! People demanding Halal food in schools was in the News not long ago. This was in US of A.

 

[ManFan]

Nah!! People demanding Halal food in schools was in the News not long ago. This was in US of A.

Which is their right to do so under the Constitution’s First Ammendment.

 

[slipcatch]

Islam does prevent people from excelling in Science and Medicine.

1/Correct me if I am wrong, but a muslim cannot donate their body to Medical science. It is a big NO NO.. How do you expect to create next generation doctors if everyone on earth becomes a muslim?

false

2/It forces you to disbelieve evolution, carbon dating, Jurrassic triassic periods, age of the universe , how earth was created etc etc
Hasn't prevented any practicing Muslim from excelling in science, technology, etc.

3/ Forces you to believe in mythical creatures Giants and Jinns which has no basis or proof in Science.
Hasn't stop practicing muslims from excelling in science.

Regards

 

[slipcatch]

All Muslims are not on Mission Dawah. The Mullah and Madrasah types are.
Why cut the foreskin if God made you born that way. Are you trying to rectify a flaw in God's design?
I heard there is only one version of Islam. What do you mean Mullah version? You have to believe in Islam and Muhammed and the hadiths that are sahih.
Religion is all good as long as science does not go against it. The moment Science proves something that is wrong in religious books, Science becomes the word of Devil.
Religion has no place in this modern society. What you believe should be in your home. Nobody should bring it to the streets and start demanding things just because their religion says so.

You heard?

You have limited knowledge regarding Islam.

I am not going to type up to explain you Islam.

You are coming here with preconceive notion to discuss with ridiculous and played out point.

I suggest you to understand Islam on your own before indulging any further.

 

[slipcatch]

Nah!! People demanding Halal food in schools was in the News not long ago. This was in US of A.

And also limited knowledge regarding American Constitution.

 

[tonmoy]

Which is their right to do so under the Constitution’s First Ammendment.

I agree there is nothing wrong in demanding Halal food...

On the other hand in Canada, there was large protest from the community to prevent kids from "sex education" by deeming it anti islamic.
There are push in UK to promote faith based schools that prevent children the knowledge of Evolution. They are forced taught the morals and principals based on the 7th century Arabia.

The above if tolerated can only cause harm to the society.

 

[slipcatch]

Nah!! People demanding Halal food in schools was in the News not long ago. This was in US of A.

what is ironic about the above comment, yet, you are promoting everyone rights to chose what they want to practice but get upset when some religious person practice it.

Has US stopped anyone from being Atheist.

Try to be less hypocrite.

 

[slipcatch]

I agree there is nothing wrong in demanding Halal food...

On the other hand in Canada, there was large protest from the community to prevent kids from "sex education" by deeming it anti islamic.
There are push in UK to promote faith based schools that prevent children the knowledge of Evolution. They are forced taught the morals and principals based on the 7th century Arabia.

The above if tolerated can only cause harm to the society.

All of the above fell into category, personal choice and what they want to preach their kids.

 

[tonmoy]

All of the above fell into category, personal choice and what they want to preach their kids.

I want to emphasize on the word "CHOICE"... if kids are not given the choice between "rationality" and "magic" than it is no longer a choice.

 

[ManFan]

I agree there is nothing wrong in demanding Halal food...

On the other hand in Canada, there was large protest from the community to prevent kids from "sex education" by deeming it anti islamic.
There are push in UK to promote faith based schools that prevent children the knowledge of Evolution. They are forced taught the morals and principals based on the 7th century Arabia.

The above if tolerated can only cause harm to the society.

There is a Creationist Museum in the State of Kentucky! Americans love their religion and if there are enough voters than any law can be passed.

The evolution theory is not what Muslims disagree with but Darwinism. Al-Jahiz detailed many facets of evolution (not complete of course) and so did Ibn Khaldun (a predecessor to Adam Smith).

The separation of the study of matter and soul was made during the Enlightenment and ensued into a worldwide revolution of advancement in scientific achievement. But, to compensate the empirical for the metaphysical is incorrect just as it would be the other way around.

Which is why science should be studied regardless of religious intrusion and vice versa. If there is a “clash” than that means we do not have sufficient evidence of one to falsify the other completely.

Scientism is impractical for society to base its moral values because in the end, it is not laws of nature that govern men but their conduct towards one another. And that will remain unhindered til the end of time because we will always have ideologies. From the Stoics to the Radicals during the French Revolution, a personal philosophy will remain a part of being.

 

[Azmi]

Which is why science should be studied regardless of religious intrusion and vice versa. If there is a “clash” than that means we do not have sufficient evidence of one to falsify the other completely.

I absolutely don't agree with this logic.

Human Rationale is enough to see which of them is wrong in case of clash. There could only be one Truth. The two contradictory and clashing thing could never be truth at the same time.

Actually, when two religions are clashing with each other, then Muslims very easily decide that their religion is right and other is wrong. Actually, they declare all remaining 99.99% (except Islam) to be wrong.

But when it comes to Islam vs Science, then the standards change, and now Muslims preach not to decide between them.

Scientism is impractical for society to base its moral values because in the end, it is not laws of nature that govern men but their conduct towards one another. And that will remain unhindered til the end of time because we will always have ideologies. From the Stoics to the Radicals during the French Revolution, a personal philosophy will remain a part of being.

Science has nothing to do with the moral values, but it is the HUMANITY in us which is the best guide for us towards the morals.

On the bases of this Humanity, the great Buddah (an Atheist/Agnostic) was able to kick away the religion, and gave the teachings of morality which were solely based upon his own human thinking and rationale.

Same is about the non religious moral teachings of the Confucius.

Same is about the non religious moral teachings of the atheist/agnostic Taoism.

Same is about the non religious Western Morals of today, where they are giving equal rights to women, the foreigners, the blacks and all the races, and even animals are getting the rights for the first time in history. These things are unprecedented in the thousands of years of history of religions.

Slavery was abolished only by this non religious Secular West, while all god given religions failed badly in abolishing slavery and to give equal rights to the slaves.

None of any religion is any where near the modern morals of the modern Secular society, which has been guided by the Humanity in us, the human rationale and the human experience of the last thousands of years.

 

[yasir]

First off, This whole Adam and Eve story is a fantasy story like all religious stories. There was never a first men or women or first of any species, if you understand little bit of how evolution works. Species evolve from one another, not magically appear one day. Otherwise why would our DNA matches with rest of living beings??

 

[notAgainPlease]

Your theory is only a conjecture, which is itself going against all the material in Quran or Hadith, which are unanimous that Adam was the first person on the earth, and that is why Eve had to be born from the ribs of Adam, and sons of Adam had to marry with the daughters of Adam (i.e. their sisters).

Had there been other humans, then there would have been no need of this incest or ribs.

In my opinion, while Quran is not divine but a human creature, therefore there are contradictions in it due to human nature. Every story teller makes such human mistakes.

For example, Islamic ideology is this that humans sin only when Satan misguides him.

Thus Adam sinned only when Satan misguided him.

But problem is this that Satan himself became devil when he refused to prostrate Adam.

How then Satan was misguiding the people before Adam on the earth, and making to to shed blood and kill each other?

How do you define person? May be Adam was first of his kind and all other creatures had vanished before he landed on earth.

Regarding Santan misgudies man ..may be because Allah created man differently from Satan.

Listen man, you could go in circles and wont reach or recognize clear signs and you are not the first one. May Allah guides all of us.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Our champion of Atheism here [MENTION=147293]Azmi[/MENTION] is hell bent on disproving Islam and Quranic texts because of some deluded sense of being Mr. Knowitall regarding Islam.

If you want to criticize anything let alone something as vast as Islam then atleast get your facts straight and from credible sources. Saudi Mufti is not a seal of credibility.

Secondly, I would like to ask something from all Atheists who also fully believe in science. I'm pretty sure all Athiests out there know the Law of Conservation of Energy, i.e. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

If that holds true then how come the Universe came into being if there was Nothing before.

Who sparked the Big Bang?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

First off, This whole Adam and Eve story is a fantasy story like all religious stories. There was never a first men or women or first of any species, if you understand little bit of how evolution works. Species evolve from one another, not magically appear one day. Otherwise why would our DNA matches with rest of living beings??

Amazing cop-out I must say.

Going by your theory of species evolving to form others:
What was the first species and how did it come into being? Did it just pop out of thin air?

 

[troodon]

Amazing cop-out I must say.

Going by your theory of species evolving to form others:
What was the first species and how did it come into being? Did it just pop out of thin air?

Life started from single celled organisms and over more than a billion years it evolved into multi cellular.

No species can sustain itself by simply placing 2 individuals at one place. It will die off in no time.

How even those single celled organisms came into being is something Science will find out soon. No magic wand involved there.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Our champion of Atheism here [MENTION=147293]Azmi[/MENTION]

Who sparked the Big Bang?

Who sparked God?