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How long ago did Adam come to the Earth? Why did humans stay in the Stone Age for 95% of their time?

Hadi Rizvi said:
Amazing cop-out I must say.

Going by your theory of species evolving to form others:
What was the first species and how did it come into being? Did it just pop out of thin air?
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It's called Abiogenesis, which is separate to evolution. Got that first.

There are theories but the honest answer is we don't know, not God knows best. Some say panspermia where life is seeded on earth via comet/asteroid/etc collision with earth.

I think high pressure, chemicals, energy, conditions for chemistry which came about because of physics, now chemistry turns to biology with amino acid or summat rna, I will let scientist tell you.

You say the chances of that are high, you propose God and magic instead? You know how vast the universe is, how long it's been around, it's surprising that there isn't more life, but due to vastness and age, whole civilisations could have formed and gone extinct.
 
Musakhel said:
It is only true that the one to spark the big bang, must be above the laws which we observe in this universe.
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I wouldn't know, it is above my paygrade. But Muslims should think outside the book, Jews have thought outside their book.

Some scientist say that universe is multiple, some talk about big crunch, some say this universe popped up when another collapsed, we don't know.

If God can be the uncaused caused so can the universe.

One day shortly I am going to link a youtube video about idk six to ten mins long and I am gonna ask you to watch it and for once in your life have an open mind, it is about the vastness of the universe, bigger than any medieval soorhsayers would predict.
 
Azmi said:
I absolutely don't agree with this logic.

Human Rationale is enough to see which of them is wrong in case of clash. There could only be one Truth. The two contradictory and clashing thing could never be truth at the same time.

Actually, when two religions are clashing with each other, then Muslims very easily decide that their religion is right and other is wrong. Actually, they declare all remaining 99.99% (except Islam) to be wrong.

But when it comes to Islam vs Science, then the standards change, and now Muslims preach not to decide between them.




Science has nothing to do with the moral values, but it is the HUMANITY in us which is the best guide for us towards the morals.

On the bases of this Humanity, the great Buddah (an Atheist/Agnostic) was able to kick away the religion, and gave the teachings of morality which were solely based upon his own human thinking and rationale.

Same is about the non religious moral teachings of the Confucius.

Same is about the non religious moral teachings of the atheist/agnostic Taoism.

Same is about the non religious Western Morals of today, where they are giving equal rights to women, the foreigners, the blacks and all the races, and even animals are getting the rights for the first time in history. These things are unprecedented in the thousands of years of history of religions.

Slavery was abolished only by this non religious Secular West, while all god given religions failed badly in abolishing slavery and to give equal rights to the slaves.

None of any religion is any where near the modern morals of the modern Secular society, which has been guided by the Humanity in us, the human rationale and the human experience of the last thousands of years.
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Your first point has some vigor but this is the mistake often associated with Islam and science called "fideism'' where if there is a clash than theology will override. Instead, Islam implores to test and acquire great depths of knowledge to understand fully God's creations which is why scholars are so highly regarded ("the ink of a scholar is worth more than the blood of a martyr"). The current pseudo-science deciphering Quranic verses as embodiments of the laws of nature can be traced back to a French scientist and personal physician of King Faisal, Maurice Bucaille and his book, "The Quran and Modern Science". For thousands of years, Muslims made the distinction between the separation of the two forms of epistemology which is why when Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islam was flourishing in its Golden Age. (Arabic translations of Greek works and their own lead to the Renaissance and Enlightenment). Now there is the false notion that "there can only be one" but when one understands that there are two separate forms of the "truth", he will be at peace. One is to uncover the governance of our lives and the other to maintain our continuance in it. Muhammad Asad stated it beautifully why there cannot be a physical standard of morality (the aim of the "scientism" followers). A scientific investigation can be remedied and has no lasting consequences (it is ever changing) but not a spiritual one because it has personal ramifications. Hence the rise of subjective morality, spiritual garrisons Western society has obtained leading to rises in drug abuse and materialism (the unhealthy kind where you substitute your sorrow).

Coming to your second point, if you obtain that Western civilization is the paragon of equality than you are mistaken. Even in the glory of Athens, you had to be a citizen (not woman, slave, or captured refugee) to be able to vote and even Socrates along with the Founding Fathers believed the general public to be too ignorant to vest complete voting power. Hence, a representative democracy ensued with Houses and Bodies of individuals chosen to act on behalf of their voters. Western civilization was before the monotheistic dogmas for millennia and was there an absence of warfare, poverty, and inequality? NO. Here's a fact: Only twelve percent of all warfare in the history of mankind have been fought over religious matters (a great portion being the Crusades) with most being fought for economic or geopolitical reasons. They have and always will continue therefore the delusion that science will bring about everlasting peace is to ignore the annals of history.

I know you do not want to hear it but the Prophet (P.B.U.H) dealt with the issue of race twelve and a half hundred years before the bearers of the Enlightenment had the sense to even proclaim its ideals. The notion of women being able to separate from their spouses and being able to maintain or inherit their deserved share of the property is documented in Islam. Foreigners (immigrants?) did have to pay a jizya but it was often times less than the tax the Muslims had to pay to the national government. Slavery? Islam insists on indentured servants being given the same food, clothing, and household as the employer and if he wants to obtain freedom, the community is required to purchase his debts in order for him to do so. Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism are a part of world religions and were practiced (and continue to be also) as such for thousands of years with their own distinct codes of civility, norms, and hierarchy (spiritually and socially).
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
Our champion of Atheism here [MENTION=147293]Azmi[/MENTION] is hell bent on disproving Islam and Quranic texts because of some deluded sense of being Mr. Knowitall regarding Islam.
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There are some choice verses in the Qur'an that defy reasonable faith. I will bring them up as and when, usually I don't favour the hadith/fiqh/philosophy route, because getting Muslims to stick to one place is like trying to stick jelly to the wall with a nail.
 
ManFan said:
Your first point has some vigor but this is the mistake often associated with Islam and science called "fideism'' where if there is a clash than theology will override. Instead, Islam implores to test and acquire great depths of knowledge to understand fully God's creations which is why scholars are so highly regarded ("the ink of a scholar is worth more than the blood of a martyr"). The current pseudo-science deciphering Quranic verses as embodiments of the laws of nature can be traced back to a French scientist and personal physician of King Faisal, Maurice Bucaille and his book, "The Quran and Modern Science". For thousands of years, Muslims made the distinction between the separation of the two forms of epistemology which is why when Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islam was flourishing in its Golden Age. (Arabic translations of Greek works and their own lead to the Renaissance and Enlightenment). Now there is the false notion that "there can only be one" but when one understands that there are two separate forms of the "truth", he will be at peace. One is to uncover the governance of our lives and the other to maintain our continuance in it. Muhammad Asad stated it beautifully why there cannot be a physical standard of morality (the aim of the "scientism" followers). A scientific investigation can be remedied and has no lasting consequences (it is ever changing) but not a spiritual one because it has personal ramifications. Hence the rise of subjective morality, spiritual garrisons Western society has obtained leading to rises in drug abuse and materialism (the unhealthy kind where you substitute your sorrow).
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Human rationale deny it. There can never be 2 Truths, but there could only be one Truth which is in harmony with all.
And the writer of Quran himself indulged in science when it started telling about the creation of the universe, 7 heavens and 7 earths, flat earth, meteors for punishing devils, sperm coming from place between ribs and backbone etc.


Coming to your second point, if you obtain that Western civilization is the paragon of equality than you are mistaken. Even in the glory of Athens, you had to be a citizen (not woman, slave, or captured refugee) to be able to vote and even Socrates along with the Founding Fathers believed the general public to be too ignorant to vest complete voting power. Hence, a representative democracy ensued with Houses and Bodies of individuals chosen to act on behalf of their voters. Western civilization was before the monotheistic dogmas for millennia and was there an absence of warfare, poverty, and inequality? NO. Here's a fact: Only twelve percent of all warfare in the history of mankind have been fought over religious matters (a great portion being the Crusades) with most being fought for economic or geopolitical reasons. They have and always will continue therefore the delusion that science will bring about everlasting peace is to ignore the annals of history.
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I don't know why you went to Athens, while Athens was only the start, while today Western world achieved the golden age where women have equal rights, and there is absolutely no slavery, and even animals are getting the rights. This thing is unprecedented in thousands of years of religious history, which stays as it is and never reforms.
Look at the last century. Europe became free of wars for many decades. Most bloodshed happened only due to religion in last few decades. And Muslims shed the Muslim blood at maximum in these wars.
Economics and poverty will keep on causing the wars, but religion has become even bigger evil in today's world.

And science will not bring peace, but the Humanity will bring the peace and will end the wars and hatred. But religion is also one factor which kills the humanity and teaches hating all others and imposing your religion upon the others, and making them slaves and raping their women in name of slavery.


I know you do not want to hear it but the Prophet (P.B.U.H) dealt with the issue of race twelve and a half hundred years before the bearers of the Enlightenment had the sense to even proclaim its ideals. The notion of women being able to separate from their spouses and being able to maintain or inherit their deserved share of the property is documented in Islam. Foreigners (immigrants?) did have to pay a jizya but it was often times less than the tax the Muslims had to pay to the national government. Slavery? Islam insists on indentured servants being given the same food, clothing, and household as the employer and if he wants to obtain freedom, the community is required to purchase his debts in order for him to do so. Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism are a part of world religions and were practiced (and continue to be also) as such for thousands of years with their own distinct codes of civility, norms, and hierarchy (spiritually and socially).
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Racism was not present against the Blacks in pre-Islamic Arabia. Therefore, there is no credit to Islam. Remember the countries of blacks at that time (i.e. Habsha of Najashi etc.) had much higher CULTURE as compared to the desert culture of the Arabs which was tribal in nature. There was a sizeable community of the black people living in Arab, and they were free people even in the pre Islamic Arabia.

And Jizya is to humiliate the Christians/Jews. While there was no Jizya from the Kuffar and they were only given the option either to become Muslim under the pressure of SWORD, or to be killed. This is the worst part of Islam against the Humanity.

And you have to read about slaves in other cultures, and then you will find out that slaves were in much worse conditions under Islam, as compared to other nations.

And spiritualism in Buddhism is not related to calling Jinns etc., but Islamic so called spirituality is limited only to calling Jinns and souls etc.

Spiritualism for atheist Buddha was nothing else than meditating and using human rationale to find the way of leading a good life as a human being.
 
Musakhel said:
It is only true that the one to spark the big bang, must be above the laws which we observe in this universe.
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God is made of something (matter, energy, spirit or whatever you want to call it), how that something came from nothing?? - God may not be living in this Universe or any other, but he is not beyond logic, even in his so called books, he is trying to use logic to justify his actions or whatever he is trying to preach...

Science Vs Theology

We have not completely solved the Origin mystery, as this is still work in progress. Part of the reason is that is not something that happen very often. Understanding Evolution of Life and or Laws of Universe is easier (relatively), since we can experience, detect, gather evidence against them all the time. That's why foundation of Science on those matters is lot stronger than on events that happen very rarely.

For same phenomenas religion/theology has very different concepts, its not like religion only talks about how things started, that's small portion of it, how things govern and operate is main course. Religion(all of them) are completely off base on those matter, its a Scam of highest order, it completely junk and bogus ideology. Nothing in Universe operate the way it is described in Religion(there is no surprise, all of them are equally wrong). Religion is wrong tool to understand reality, that is the core conflict between Science and Theology.

A very simple examples are "Earth Revolve around Sun or Sun revolve around Earth", "Earth is flat or sphere"? popular culture at that time( since it was more apparent from naked eye), was that sun revolves around Earth and Earth is flat. Many religious books were either wrong about basic phenomenas like that or did not take a precise position. Language itself is vague, and not very scientific. Why anybody would take such books seriously? This is true of those books for lot of this about real world. Does not look like coming from a guy, who build all these things.
 
Religion(all of them) are completely off base on those matter, its a Scam of highest order, it completely junk and bogus ideology. Nothing in Universe operate the way it is described in Religion(there is no surprise, all of them are equally wrong).
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Religion with God is the biggest conspiracy theory ever been told.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Islamic apologetics, how do you explain Neanderthal DNA in modern humans alive today?
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Discussions with Muslims about Neanderthal is also very interesting.

Muslims deny evolution and claim that Neanderthals were also humans. Then I tell them that your Adam drifted now to 450,000 ago (as earliest Neanderthal fossils are 450,000 years old). This means that according to Islam humans stayed in STONE AGE for 445,000 years i.e. 98% of time after the arrival of Adam.

More interesting thing happens then when Muslims are showed the fossils of Homo Erectus, and Muslisms again deny the evolution and claim Homo Erectus too to be humans. This means Adam drifted away now 1.9 million years ago as oldest fossils of Homo Erectus are 1.9 million years old. This means human stayed in Stone age for 99.5% time.

Let us see how Muslims reply it now.
 
Azmi said:
Discussions with Muslims about Neanderthal is also very interesting.

Muslims deny evolution and claim that Neanderthals were also humans. Then I tell them that your Adam drifted now to 450,000 ago (as earliest Neanderthal fossils are 450,000 years old). This means that according to Islam humans stayed in STONE AGE for 445,000 years i.e. 98% of time after the arrival of Adam.

More interesting thing happens then when Muslims are showed the fossils of Homo Erectus, and Muslisms again deny the evolution and claim Homo Erectus too to be humans. This means Adam drifted away now 1.9 million years ago as oldest fossils of Homo Erectus are 1.9 million years old. This means human stayed in Stone age for 99.5% time.

Let us see how Muslims reply it now.
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Why is it necessary for you and taken a responsibility upon yourself to prove religion is false? Particularly Islam?
 
All you guys are not getting the very basic idea,,, that you guys are trying to prove spiritualism and metaphysical things with materialism and physical science,,, both may overlap in some regards but on the whole these are very different and both can exist independently,, and it's upto anyone in which one's believe, religion or science, no one is forcing anyone but Plz respect the other sides ideas and views even if you don't agree,,, Peace...
 
Zeshan547 said:
All you guys are not getting the very basic idea,,, that you guys are trying to prove spiritualism and metaphysical things with materialism and physical science,,, both may overlap in some regards but on the whole these are very different and both can exist independently,, and it's upto anyone in which one's believe, religion or science, no one is forcing anyone but Plz respect the other sides ideas and views even if you don't agree,,, Peace...
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Don't waste your time on them.

I know there are some knowledgable atheists out there but most of them online, such as OP here are legitimately so one track minded. They refuse to understand where we are even coming from. Their lack of understanding makes them so frustrated and funny though.
 
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Azmi said:
Discussions with Muslims about Neanderthal is also very interesting.

Muslims deny evolution and claim that Neanderthals were also humans. Then I tell them that your Adam drifted now to 450,000 ago (as earliest Neanderthal fossils are 450,000 years old). This means that according to Islam humans stayed in STONE AGE for 445,000 years i.e. 98% of time after the arrival of Adam.

More interesting thing happens then when Muslims are showed the fossils of Homo Erectus, and Muslisms again deny the evolution and claim Homo Erectus too to be humans. This means Adam drifted away now 1.9 million years ago as oldest fossils of Homo Erectus are 1.9 million years old. This means human stayed in Stone age for 99.5% time.

Let us see how Muslims reply it now.
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I suggest you do not talk on behalf of the muslims as there are plenty of them on this forum to talk on their own behalf.

The thread is about Adam and when Adam came to earth.

A general message to all posters, this thread is not about God or Islam. Please stick to the discussion and post your own views on the subject. Or your post will be deleted.
 
Badsha said:
Don't waste your time on them.

I know there are some knowledgable atheists out there but most of them online, such as OP here are legitimately so one track minded. They refuse to understand where we are even coming from. Their lack of understanding makes them so frustrated and funny though.
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So refute the OP with your explanation.

What has the Age of Adam got to do with Spiritualism and Metaphysical stuff?

God created Man by the name Adam and put him on Earth. From his rib he created a woman (Eve). They gave rise to the entire humanity (of all races in various continents).

Just answer when he arrived and why God made Adam and his progeny stay in stone age for several thousands of years?
 
yasir said:
God is made of something (matter, energy, spirit or whatever you want to call it), how that something came from nothing?? - God may not be living in this Universe or any other, but he is not beyond logic, even in his so called books, he is trying to use logic to justify his actions or whatever he is trying to preach...

Science Vs Theology

We have not completely solved the Origin mystery, as this is still work in progress. Part of the reason is that is not something that happen very often. Understanding Evolution of Life and or Laws of Universe is easier (relatively), since we can experience, detect, gather evidence against them all the time. That's why foundation of Science on those matters is lot stronger than on events that happen very rarely.

For same phenomenas religion/theology has very different concepts, its not like religion only talks about how things started, that's small portion of it, how things govern and operate is main course. Religion(all of them) are completely off base on those matter, its a Scam of highest order, it completely junk and bogus ideology. Nothing in Universe operate the way it is described in Religion(there is no surprise, all of them are equally wrong). Religion is wrong tool to understand reality, that is the core conflict between Science and Theology.

A very simple examples are "Earth Revolve around Sun or Sun revolve around Earth", "Earth is flat or sphere"? popular culture at that time( since it was more apparent from naked eye), was that sun revolves around Earth and Earth is flat. Many religious books were either wrong about basic phenomenas like that or did not take a precise position. Language itself is vague, and not very scientific. Why anybody would take such books seriously? This is true of those books for lot of this about real world. Does not look like coming from a guy, who build all these things.
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The scholars say Whatever we think of Allah, Allah is other than that, if you extrapolate the meaning of this, it means that nothing that we can observe of creation can be compared to Allah, so Allah did not come from something, Allah always was before there existed anything, And Allah is as he was, since he is not subject to change.

As for your examples of science and Quran, this is the wrong understanding of looking at the Quran, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did not explain the Quran with scientific explanation rather The Quran was a there to guide people to salvation.

It is a book of guidance not a science Manuel.
 
It is a very legitimate question, if the Neanderthal and Homo Erectus are also from the progeny of Adam or not.
If not, how then their DNA came into the Humans?
 
Once you open your mind, come out of your belief brainwashed upon you since childhood and study science, natural logics and human behaviour, the religion feels just the weirdest thing.

A religious criminal person has higher chance of getting to heaven than a charitable disbeliever. :D *** is this!!

By the end of 21 century,I believe most of the people, if humanity on earth survives,will be irreligious.
 
Azmi said:
It is a very legitimate question, if the Neanderthal and Homo Erectus are also from the progeny of Adam or not.
If not, how then their DNA came into the Humans?
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Both could have mate along the line. Try using your brain.
 
I sm a science student and believe in both religion and science,,, but religion comes 1st and I don't need any scientific verification of my religious beliefs or logical justification,, the very meaning of Allah in my view is that it's existence is beyond human imagination and logic, Like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan said in his famous Qawali k "Jo smajh me aa jaey wo khuda q kr ho" if you understand Urdu then this is a must listen if you haven't before,,, it will make you think and will give you some answers as well.The title is Tum ik Gorakh Dhanda ho,,,
 
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KingKhanWC said:
Both could have mate along the line. Try using your brain.
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I wished you would have provided more details. At moment, what I understand from your short reply is this that you consider Neanderthal to another species, which is different than Humans (and it is exactly what modern science proofs).

But then arises many Questions, like why then Eve was created from the the ribs of Adam? Why didn't Adam simply married a Neanderthal woman and his progeny continued.

And why then sons and daughters of Adam had to indulge in incest and marry each other? Why didn't then they married the Neanderthal girls and boys?

And most important one, why Quran or Hadith or Bible were totally unable to tell us about the existence of another human like species i.e. Neanderthal?
 
tonmoy said:
Anyways on a more serious note, You cannot choose both science and religion since one contradicts the other.
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That's what two hours of rocking back and forth at mosque for two hours after school, reading a language you don't understand does to you. The brainwash takes time to wear off, by the time GCSE biology comes round, it is too late.

Imagine instead of ten hours a week, rocking back and forth, it was spent learning important, creative stuff, how much better I would our kids be doing?
 
Guys there is a another thread on God.

This thread is about Adam. So please stick to the topic and present what your own views are rather than what others say.
 
JaDed said:
Someone who believes in Adam and Eve and Noah etc should really no use the taunt of s
'using your brain' w.r.t religious claims.
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Why not? Who would you back to produce your own bloodline over Adam and Eve? The big bang or chimpanzees?
 
Let me repeat the questions in this thread, which still remained unanswered:

(1) Why Religions were unable to tell about the Stone Age?

(2) What about the "Ice Age" which also ended about 10,000 years ago?

(3) Why religions didn't know about the Dinosaurs? What was the purpose of Dinosaurs then? What was actually the purpose of 99% of species who terminated to exist before the advent of humans?

Let us start with these questions once again before going toward the other questions.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Who sparked God?
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You did, isn't it?

You and [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] were there to observe it all: big bang, astral collisions, single celled organisms etc. We name it and you've observed with your own eyes, right?

How very naive? So you're telling me its all out of thin air in a pop, swish, kaboom and there it is, the perfectly balanced universe comes into being. Something out of nothing. How does Physics explain that huh? Are you gonna cop out and say that Law of Conservation of Energy doesn't apply at those "conditions"?

You wanted to go all-out with science to defy God, right; I'll start taking you seriously when you can explain why the laws of physics are decimated at the event horizon of a black hole.
 
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Azmi said:
Let me repeat the questions in this thread, which still remained unanswered:

(1) Why Religions were unable to tell about the Stone Age?

(2) What about the "Ice Age" which also ended about 10,000 years ago?

(3) Why religions didn't know about the Dinosaurs? What was the purpose of Dinosaurs then? What was actually the purpose of 99% of species who terminated to exist before the advent of humans?

Let us start with these questions once again before going toward the other questions.
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Quran takes you back in history as far as we humans need to know. There may have been creatures before the dinosaurs and also before that. The cycle is a very long cycle. The purpose of Quran is to guide us in our life and therafter. Allah chose to share the most important guidlines and hence this resulted in this concise book. Otherwise the Quran would have ended up into 100s of volumes with thousands and thousands of pages. Allah knows what is best. If he had mentioned everything and everything it would have become far too obvious for the whole world to be muslim. This is a test for us, search for the truth and get the reward.
 
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gazza619 said:
Quran takes you back in history as far as we humans need to know. There may have been creatures before the dinosaurs and also before that. The cycle is a very long cycle. The purpose of Quran is to guide us in our life and therafter. Allah chose to share the most important guidlines and hence this resulted in this concise book. Otherwise the Quran would have ended up into 100s of volumes with thousands and thousands of pages. Allah knows what is best. If he had mentioned everything and everything it would have become far too obvious for the whole world to be muslim. This is a test for us, search for the truth and get the reward.
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If Adam/Eve were first humans than stone age is a part of history of mankind and occurred after Adam/Eve.
How about Giants and people that lived for nearly a 1000 years? Or Noah's flood? (stolen from epic of Gilgamesh) . There are no scientific basis to their existence. What is Islam's explanation to these facts since they contradict science.
 
gazza619 said:
Allah chose to share the most important guidlines and hence this resulted in this concise book.
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Not the best way to inform humankind of guidelines, books have a habit of being open to different interpretations. Hence everyone from Sufi to ISIS recruit can claim to following the straight path outlined in the Qur'an. Also not the best time to send thee book for all time for all of humankind, nearly everyone in the world thought the earth was flat, also to a region, Arabia that was in comparison to other parts of the world, I wouldn't use the term backward but they were hardly a leading civilisation of the time. Also to issue only in one language, sounds a little parochial and exclusive, why not the language the would eventually rule the world. Mandarin not English.

That's without talking about the actual Qur'an itself.
 
gazza619 said:
Quran takes you back in history as far as we humans need to know.
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Either this, or the author of Quran has absolutely no knowledge and no idea about:
(1) Stone Age
(2) Ice Age
(3) Dinosaurs, or the 99.9% Species which died on the Earth before the advent of Adam. Neither the author of Quran knew these species, nor he knew the PURPOSE why they were created and then destroyed.
(4) And author of Quran had no idea how long ago earth came into being. And what was the purpose of making earth 4,8 billion years ago when Adam had to come only few thousands years ago.


There may have been creatures before the dinosaurs and also before that. The cycle is a very long cycle.
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Again, what is the purpose of creating earth 4,8 billion years ago, and creating and then destroying 99.9% species before Adam?

Allah chose to share the most important guidlines and hence this resulted in this concise book.
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Oh NO, the author of Quran has no hesitation in telling the fantasy stories (and scientifically totally wrong) about the creation of the universe and earth. The author of Quran thought at that time that no one could ever judge the truth or the false in the stories of creation of universe and earth. But his mistake, while science today successfully challenged these fantasy stories and negated them.

Just look when author of Quran claims he created 7 heavens and 7 earths, while science tells us there is no such thing as heaven. The blue colour of sky is only only due to the rays of the sun, otherwise there is only dark space all over and no physical heaven as author of Quran claims.

And again no 7 heavens and no 7 earths are there.

There are lot more such claims made by the author of Quran, but modern science is proving them all wrong.

And lastly, you claim that Quran was concise and therefore author of Quran didn't record the most important events of the Human History like stone age, ice age, iron age, 99,9% species before Adam etc. ..... BUT WHAT ABOUT THE AHADITH?

As compared to concise Quran (according to your claim), there are several hundred thousands of Ahadith. Why the author of Quran and author of Ahadith was/were unable to tell about the most important events in the human history? Do you think the excuse of concise still could work for Ahadith too?

Otherwise the Quran would have ended up into 100s of volumes with thousands and thousands of pages.
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Quran is not as concise as you are claiming. It still consists of 6666 verses which makes it a voluminous book. And if Quran could talk in dozens of verses about the beginning of universe and earth and flat earth and physical 7 heavens with doors in them and angels there aiming at Shaitans with fire meteors etc.... then it should have not been difficult to tell in 2 lines about stone age and the ice age and the dinosaurs.

Again what about the non-concise Ahadith which are full of sciences like humans being 30 yard long and gradually decreasing in size till prophet Muhammad, but then scientists discovered thousands of human fossils which were much older than era of prophet Muhammad and still of the same size and present day humans.

Whey these hundred and thousands of ahadith failed to tell 2 lines about stone age and ice age and iron age?


Allah knows what is best. If he had mentioned everything and everything it would have become far too obvious for the whole world to be muslim. This is a test for us, search for the truth and get the reward.
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Either this, or the author of Quran had no knowledge of the beginning of universe and earth, and thus the flat earth, 7 heavens, 7 earths, meteors hitting the satans, physical heaven, sun setting in a pond of black water etc.

Quran claims it made it's verses clear so that every one could understand them. But in practice it is exactly the opposite, the verses of Quran are so unclear that only wrong science is emitting out of them.
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
You did, isn't it?

You and [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] were there to observe it all: big bang, astral collisions, single celled organisms etc. We name it and you've observed with your own eyes, right?
Click to expand...

I now already cannot take you seriously. Events leave evidence. If a car crashed into your house because the driver was drunk and luckily you were not home at the time and no one was on the street and the driver managed to flee the scene, ergo no witnesses, did the crash happen or not. According to you, no witnesses means it didn't happen.

How very naive? So you're telling me its all out of thin air in a pop, swish, kaboom and there it is, the perfectly balanced universe comes into being. Something out of nothing.Something out of nothing. How does Physics explain that huh? Are you gonna cop out and say that Law of Conservation of Energy doesn't apply at those "conditions"?
Click to expand...

Perfectly balanced? Odd term what do you mean by it. Do you mean something came into existence rather than nothing? The universe is vast, unimaginable, apparently we only know of the observable universe and some scientist say that the if the observable universe was a light bulb, the surrounding unobservsble universe would be the size of Pluto. Most of it is not suitable for life, even Earth was not suitable for life for billions of years. Hardly made for humans, it was the earth that made humans. You got things the wrong way round. Douglas Adams, writes of a rain puddle that gains conciousness and marvels at the fact that the hole he is situated in is made specifically for it. A marvel that did not last much in the sun. You say the chances of life are too high to by accident but someone at some point does win the lottery.

You know that the term 'nothing' in Science is that it is not nothing, there is always something.

As for conservation of energy, I am not a physicist.

You wanted to go all-out with science to defy God, right; I'll start taking you seriously when you can explain why the laws of physics are decimated at the event horizon of a black hole.
Click to expand...

Like I said not a scientist, I have a good general knowledge but physics weak as opposed to biology I presume no scientist can answer the question you posed? Even if that was the case, nothing changes regarding Science v God or at least specifically the Abrahamic God, because science changes to reflect the evidence and if you point out _one_ issue where supposedly it doesn't ring scientifically true, does not mean the fall of the whole edifice, whereas religion only needs _one_ issue, to fall because divinity cannot be fallible.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Not the best way to inform humankind of guidelines, books have a habit of being open to different interpretations. Hence everyone from Sufi to ISIS recruit can claim to following the straight path outlined in the Qur'an. Also not the best time to send thee book for all time for all of humankind, nearly everyone in the world thought the earth was flat, also to a region, Arabia that was in comparison to other parts of the world, I wouldn't use the term backward but they were hardly a leading civilisation of the time. Also to issue only in one language, sounds a little parochial and exclusive, why not the language the would eventually rule the world. Mandarin not English.

That's without talking about the actual Qur'an itself.
Click to expand...
In this particular post your use of so many commas and the lack of fullstop has made it really hard for me to completely understand what you are trying to say.
 
Azmi said:
Either this, or the author of Quran has absolutely no knowledge and no idea about:
(1) Stone Age
(2) Ice Age
(3) Dinosaurs, or the 99.9% Species which died on the Earth before the advent of Adam. Neither the author of Quran knew these species, nor he knew the PURPOSE why they were created and then destroyed.
(4) And author of Quran had no idea how long ago earth came into being. And what was the purpose of making earth 4,8 billion years ago when Adam had to come only few thousands years ago.




Again, what is the purpose of creating earth 4,8 billion years ago, and creating and then destroying 99.9% species before Adam?



Oh NO, the author of Quran has no hesitation in telling the fantasy stories (and scientifically totally wrong) about the creation of the universe and earth. The author of Quran thought at that time that no one could ever judge the truth or the false in the stories of creation of universe and earth. But his mistake, while science today successfully challenged these fantasy stories and negated them.

Just look when author of Quran claims he created 7 heavens and 7 earths, while science tells us there is no such thing as heaven. The blue colour of sky is only only due to the rays of the sun, otherwise there is only dark space all over and no physical heaven as author of Quran claims.

And again no 7 heavens and no 7 earths are there.

There are lot more such claims made by the author of Quran, but modern science is proving them all wrong.

And lastly, you claim that Quran was concise and therefore author of Quran didn't record the most important events of the Human History like stone age, ice age, iron age, 99,9% species before Adam etc. ..... BUT WHAT ABOUT THE AHADITH?

As compared to concise Quran (according to your claim), there are several hundred thousands of Ahadith. Why the author of Quran and author of Ahadith was/were unable to tell about the most important events in the human history? Do you think the excuse of concise still could work for Ahadith too?



Quran is not as concise as you are claiming. It still consists of 6666 verses which makes it a voluminous book. And if Quran could talk in dozens of verses about the beginning of universe and earth and flat earth and physical 7 heavens with doors in them and angels there aiming at Shaitans with fire meteors etc.... then it should have not been difficult to tell in 2 lines about stone age and the ice age and the dinosaurs.

Again what about the non-concise Ahadith which are full of sciences like humans being 30 yard long and gradually decreasing in size till prophet Muhammad, but then scientists discovered thousands of human fossils which were much older than era of prophet Muhammad and still of the same size and present day humans.

Whey these hundred and thousands of ahadith failed to tell 2 lines about stone age and ice age and iron age?




Either this, or the author of Quran had no knowledge of the beginning of universe and earth, and thus the flat earth, 7 heavens, 7 earths, meteors hitting the satans, physical heaven, sun setting in a pond of black water etc.

Quran claims it made it's verses clear so that every one could understand them. But in practice it is exactly the opposite, the verses of Quran are so unclear that only wrong science is emitting out of them.
Click to expand...

There are two sides of everything. You can add the phrase ‘either this or’ to every single statement and create doubt. It is really up to you what path you chose. Science did not discover that many things few decades ago, so did it mean they didnt exist?

Allah says,

“God is the one who caused two bodies of water to flow, one palpable and sweet, the other salty and bitter.
He placed a barrier between them, a partition that they are forbidden to surmount”. ( Quran 25:53)

Did you know that Science only became aware of this phenomenon in 1965, after the satellite Gemini 4 photographed the Nile Delta.

Allah says,

“WE MADE EVERY LIVING THING FROM WATER? WILL THEY NOT BELIEVE?”[21:30]

In this verse, water is pointed out as the origin of all life. All living things are made of cells. We now know that cells are mostly made up of water. For example, 80% of the cytoplasm (basic cell material) of a standard animal cell is described as water in biology textbooks.
The fact that living things consist mostly of water was discovered only after the invention of the microscope. In the deserts of Arabia, the last thing someone would have guessed is that all life came from water.

Allah says,


“WE SENT DOWN IRON WITH ITS GREAT INHERENT STRENGTH AND ITS MANY BENEFITS FOR HUMANKIND”[57:25]

Allah uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity. The fact that Iron came down to earth from outer space is something which could not be known by the primitive science of the 7th century.

Allah says,

“IT IS HE WHO CREATED NIGHT AND DAY, THE SUN AND THE MOON, EACH FLOATING IN ITS ORBIT.”[21:33]

The Quran would have been wrong according to astronomers just a couple of decades ago. But we now know that the Quranic account of the Sun’s motion is consistent with modern Astronomy.

Allah says,

“AND IT IS WE WHO HAVE BUILT THE UNIVERSE WITH [OUR CREATIVE] POWER AND KEEP EXPANDING IT.”[51:47]

The fact that the universe is expanding was discovered in the last century. The physicist Stephen Hawking in his book ‘A Brief History of Time’ writes, “The discovery that the universe is expanding was one of the great intellectual revolutions of the 20th century.” The Quran mentioned the expansion of the universe even before the invention of the telescope!
 
gazza619 said:
There are two sides of everything. You can add the phrase ‘either this or’ to every single statement and create doubt. It is really up to you what path you chose. Science did not discover that many things few decades ago, so did it mean they didnt exist?
Click to expand...

Human history is very short, but when the writer of Quran is not able to record the most important events of the human history, then off course question arises if he even knew about them or not. If he could fill a voluminous book like Quran with all kind of stories and strange sciences about creation of universe and earth, how then he could forget to mention about Neanderthal who had their DNA in non African humans. If humans were able to do intercourse with Neanderthals, why then need of ribs for creation of Eva, and then incest of Adam's children?

What about the voluminous Ahadith literature? Why no Neanderthals, no Ice age, no Stone age mentioned there. For Iron, there is whole Surah in Quran, but still author of Quran was unable to tell how long ago the iron age started.

And regarding iron, you wrote:

“WE SENT DOWN IRON WITH ITS GREAT INHERENT STRENGTH AND ITS MANY BENEFITS FOR HUMANKIND”[57:25]

Allah uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity. The fact that Iron came down to earth from outer space is something which could not be known by the primitive science of the 7th century.
Click to expand...

It is not only iron, but all the elements came to earth from outer space, while all the elements who are heavier than Helium, they could not be produced in our earth while all of them need Supernova to be formed, which never happened on the planet earth after it's formation. Thus all the elements came down from space.

And when author of Quran says he sent down Iron, then it means that iron came down from the heavens as God sent down Adam and Eve on the earth, and not from the space. This is again a contradiction.
 
gazza619 said:
In this particular post your use of so many commas and the lack of fullstop has made it really hard for me to completely understand what you are trying to say.
Click to expand...

That's something you got right, for once, I'm kidding. Yes I do know that I have that issue, so lemme repunctuate and maybe you can try tackling it.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Not the best way to inform humankind of guidelines, books have a habit of being open to different interpretations. Hence everyone from Sufi to ISIS recruit can claim to following the straight path outlined in the Qur'an.
Click to expand...

A book is not the best way to inform Mankind about guidelines set out by God. Books are open to interpretation, the Qur'an is open to interpretation, the proof of this is in the fact that both the Sufi and the ISIS recruit both believe they are following the straight path as outlined by the Qur'an.

Also not the best time to send thee book for all time for all of humankind, nearly everyone in the world thought the earth was flat, also to a region, Arabia that was in comparison to other parts of the world, I wouldn't use the term backward but they were hardly a leading civilisation of the time. Also to issue only in one language, sounds a little parochial and exclusive, why not the language the would eventually rule the world. Mandarin not English.
Click to expand...

Not only were the guidelines contained in s book which can be misrepresented. He Also sent that book to one small tribe in one language. Surely He could see the issue this would cause. Its like He creates the universe, with only one tiny tiny tiny ( times many tiny) rock called Earth but even when we scale down to Earth, He only seems interested in the Middle East and only interested in its politics between the years of 1000 BC to 600 summat AD. Hence my use of the terms parochial and exclusive.

That's without talking about the actual Qur'an itself.
Click to expand...

Well, of course I think there are issues in the Qur'an which to me don't seem to have a divine origin.
 
gazza619 said:
Allah says,

“God is the one who caused two bodies of water to flow, one palpable and sweet, the other salty and bitter.
He placed a barrier between them, a partition that they are forbidden to surmount”. ( Quran 25:53)

Did you know that Science only became aware of this phenomenon in 1965, after the satellite Gemini 4 photographed the Nile Delta.
Click to expand...

All these Quranic miracles (that you have mentioned above) are scientifically wrong.

For example, author of Quran used the word "Two Bahrain بحرین", which means "Two Oceans".

But since Oceans always have salty water, therefore Muslims got no answer to it where does this ocean of sweet water exists.

Lastly, they changed the translation from "Two Bahrain" from two oceans to "two bodies of water", and then called the sweat Nile delta as one of them.

Till this century, none of the Muslim Mufassir of Quran ever come to conclusion that God is talking about Nile Delta, but for the last 14 centuries, these Muslim Mufassirin (commentators) had another theory about these two oceans.

People of earlier centuries didn't know how water evaporates and how clouds are formed from which rain water comes. Therefore, they made a false assumption that there is an Ocean of Sweet Water on the heavens, and sweet rain water comes from that ocean on the heavens.

Same assumption was also made by the author of Quran. And from here came the Islamic claim that "Throne of Allah" is also established upon the water (i.e. water above the 7 heavens, and above the water there is throne of Allah).

Therefore, the author of Quran is repeating this fantasy story in this Quranic Verse of 2 Oceans, one salty and one sweet.

The Sahaba (companions) mentioned the same 2 oceans (one in heaven and one on earth) regarding this verse.

Tafsir al-Qurtabi (Commentary of Verse 25:33):
وقال ابن عباس وابن جبير: يعني بحر السماء وبحر الأرض.
قال ابن عباس: يلتقيان في كل عام وبينهما برزخ قضاء من قضائه. { وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً } حراماً محرّماً أن يعذب هذا الملح بالعذب، أو يملح هذا العذب بالملح.
Translation:
Companion Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubair said: "In these verses 2 Oceans mean one from the heavens and one from the earth"
Companion Ibn Abbas said: (Yultaqyaan) means they meat with each other every year, but still there always exists a barrier between them, and thus salty water didn't become sweet and vice versa.

Tafsir Dur-e-Manthus (Commentary of 25:33):
وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم عن الحسن في قوله { مرج البحرين } قال: بحر في السماء وبحر في الأرض
Translation:
Ibn Abi Hatim and Hassan Basri said: In this verse it is meant one Ocean on the heavens and one on the earth.

This is the only Commentary which was given by Sahaba and Tabaeen.

Therefore, it becomes clear which fantasy story was going in the mind of the author of Quran, as he was describing this verse.

This same Quranic Model has been earlier told by Bible too, where again the sweet water ocean is on the heavens and from there comes the sweet water of rain.

Flat%2BEarth.jpg


And this is Sumerian Cosmology, and again we find the same thing here where sweet water Ocean is on the heaven and from there comes the sweet water of rain when the gates of heavens are opened.

sumerian.jpg


And the author of Quran again told the same fantacy story in Quran at another place:

(Quran 23:18) وَأَنزَلْنَا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً بِقَدَرٍ فَأَسْكَنَّاهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ ۖ وَإِنَّا عَلَىٰ ذَهَابٍ بِهِ لَقَادِرُونَ
Translation:
And we send down from the sky (sweet) water in "measure", and We give it lodging in the earth, and lo! We are Able to withdraw it too (so that constant amount of sweet water stays on earth and it does not cause floods on the earth due to this excessive sweet water from the Ocean on the heaven).

This translation is by Pickthal with parenthesis from my side to make things clear.

So, you could see that author of Quran didn't know about that rain water comes from evaporation from the water which is already present on the earth.

But the author of Quran thought that rain water comes from the sky (from the ocean of sweet water on the heavens). And then God had to sent this water only in a "measured quantity" to stay on the earth. And since if sweet water comes contantly from the sky, then whole world will be flooded with water, therefore, God then had to take away/withdraw this extra water on the earth too.

Are you able to see the pseudo-science in Quran now?

We again find that Ahadith are also mentioning this sweet water on the heavens:

Sahih Bukahri, Book of Merits of Ansar (link: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/113):
... then Holy Prophet said: ' Then I was made to ascend to Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary) Behold! Its fruits were like the jars of Hajr (i.e. a place near Medina) and its leaves were as big as the ears of elephants. Gabriel said, 'This is the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary) . Behold ! There ran four rivers, two were hidden and two were visible, I asked, 'What are these two kinds of rivers, O Gabriel?' He replied,' As for the hidden rivers, they are two rivers in Paradise and the visible rivers are the Nile and the Euphrates.'

Today, we have been asking the Muslims how come the water of Neil and Euphrates comes from Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (which is above the 7 heavens). But Muslims don't reply.
Why?
Because Muslims are unable to tell the fanstasy story today that God makes the sweet water at Sidratul-Muntaha to rain down from heavens to Neil and Euphrates.

Sahih Muslim, Book of The Book of Paradise, its Description, its Bounties and its Inhabitants (Link: https://sunnah.com/muslim/53/30):

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.
 
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Azmi said:
Human history is very short, but when the writer of Quran is not able to record the most important events of the human history, then off course question arises if he even knew about them or not. If he could fill a voluminous book like Quran with all kind of stories and strange sciences about creation of universe and earth, how then he could forget to mention about Neanderthal who had their DNA in non African humans. If humans were able to do intercourse with Neanderthals, why then need of ribs for creation of Eva, and then incest of Adam's children?

What about the voluminous Ahadith literature? Why no Neanderthals, no Ice age, no Stone age mentioned there. For Iron, there is whole Surah in Quran, but still author of Quran was unable to tell how long ago the iron age started.

And regarding iron, you wrote:



It is not only iron, but all the elements came to earth from outer space, while all the elements who are heavier than Helium, they could not be produced in our earth while all of them need Supernova to be formed, which never happened on the planet earth after it's formation. Thus all the elements came down from space.

And when author of Quran says he sent down Iron, then it means that iron came down from the heavens as God sent down Adam and Eve on the earth, and not from the space. This is again a contradiction.
Click to expand...
When Allah says he sent down Iron, how can you assume he is saying he sent down iron from heaven? Allah never said that, and science didnt know this fact there are things on this earth which were sent from somewhere else. Also you have convieniently not commented on the other verses which are scientifically true, I guess you didnt have an answer?

If Allah had mentioned everything about ice age stone age then it would have become far too obvious to become a muslim. As I said previously this world is a test.

Allah says,


And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Saabiroon (the patient).

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ‘Truly, to Allaah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.’

They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones”

[al-Baqarah 2:155-157]

He also says,


Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We believe,’ and will not be tested.

And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allaah will certainly make (it) known (the truth of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars, (although Allaah knows all that before putting them to test)”

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:2-3]

Praise be to Allah!
 
gazza619 said:
When Allah says he sent down Iron, how can you assume he is saying he sent down iron from heaven? Allah never said that, and science didnt know this fact there are things on this earth which were sent from somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Well the operative word is 'down' which fits the description of how the Qur'an saw earth and heaven. There is no 'down' in space.

Also you have convieniently not commented on the other verses which are scientifically true, I guess you didnt have an answer?
Click to expand...

Interesting, enlighten me please.

If Allah had mentioned everything about ice age stone age then it would have become far too obvious to become a muslim. As I said previously this world is a test.
Click to expand...

This I am afraid is too funny. Why do some people get the chance to be born to Muslim family, surely this makes becoming a Muslim far too easy, one has to do _nothing_.

To be a fairer test, if one is born to Muslim family and fails they should never smell Paradise, as they had an unfair start on people born to non-Muslim families. Not as current thinking has it, that eventually all Muslims will find themselves in Paradise.


Allah says,


And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Saabiroon (the patient).

Who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ‘Truly, to Allaah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.’

They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones”

[al-Baqarah 2:155-157]
Click to expand...

I do not know what this was in response to but this is just a platitude for the poor and/or suffering.

He also says,


Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We believe,’ and will not be tested.

And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allaah will certainly make (it) known (the truth of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars, (although Allaah knows all that before putting them to test)”

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:2-3]

Praise be to Allah!
Click to expand...

The telling phrase is (although Allah knows all that before putting them to test), so He already knows who is gonna fail, what was that about being most merciful.

Among the 99 attributes, is there are for being fair.

By the way I have reposted the post that you correctly identified as having too many commas and not enough full stops.
 
Azmi said:
All these Quranic miracles (that you have mentioned above) are scientifically wrong.

For example, author of Quran used the word "Two Bahrain بحرین", which means "Two Oceans".

But since Oceans always have salty water, therefore Muslims got no answer to it where does this ocean of sweet water exists.

Lastly, they changed the translation from "Two Bahrain" from two oceans to "two bodies of water", and then called the sweat Nile delta as one of them.

Till this century, none of the Muslim Mufassir of Quran ever come to conclusion that God is talking about Nile Delta, but for the last 14 centuries, these Muslim Mufassirin (commentators) had another theory about these two oceans.

People of earlier centuries didn't know how water evaporates and how clouds are formed from which rain water comes. Therefore, they made a false assumption that there is an Ocean of Sweet Water on the heavens, and sweet rain water comes from that ocean on the heavens.

Same assumption was also made by the author of Quran. And from here came the Islamic claim that "Throne of Allah" is also established upon the water (i.e. water above the 7 heavens, and above the water there is throne of Allah).

Therefore, the author of Quran is repeating this fantasy story in this Quranic Verse of 2 Oceans, one salty and one sweet.

The Sahaba (companions) mentioned the same 2 oceans (one in heaven and one on earth) regarding this verse.

Tafsir al-Qurtabi (Commentary of Verse 25:33):
وقال ابن عباس وابن جبير: يعني بحر السماء وبحر الأرض.
قال ابن عباس: يلتقيان في كل عام وبينهما برزخ قضاء من قضائه. { وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً } حراماً محرّماً أن يعذب هذا الملح بالعذب، أو يملح هذا العذب بالملح.
Translation:
Companion Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubair said: "In these verses 2 Oceans mean one from the heavens and one from the earth"
Companion Ibn Abbas said: (Yultaqyaan) means they meat with each other every year, but still there always exists a barrier between them, and thus salty water didn't become sweet and vice versa.

Tafsir Dur-e-Manthus (Commentary of 25:33):
وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم عن الحسن في قوله { مرج البحرين } قال: بحر في السماء وبحر في الأرض
Translation:
Ibn Abi Hatim and Hassan Basri said: In this verse it is meant one Ocean on the heavens and one on the earth.

This is the only Commentary which was given by Sahaba and Tabaeen.

Therefore, it becomes clear which fantasy story was going in the mind of the author of Quran, as he was describing this verse.

This same Quranic Model has been earlier told by Bible too, where again the sweet water ocean is on the heavens and from there comes the sweet water of rain.

Flat%2BEarth.jpg


And this is Sumerian Cosmology, and again we find the same thing here where sweet water Ocean is on the heaven and from there comes the sweet water of rain when the gates of heavens are opened.

sumerian.jpg


And the author of Quran again told the same fantacy story in Quran at another place:

(Quran 23:18) وَأَنزَلْنَا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً بِقَدَرٍ فَأَسْكَنَّاهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ ۖ وَإِنَّا عَلَىٰ ذَهَابٍ بِهِ لَقَادِرُونَ
Translation:
And we send down from the sky (sweet) water in "measure", and We give it lodging in the earth, and lo! We are Able to withdraw it too (so that constant amount of sweet water stays on earth and it does not cause floods on the earth due to this excessive sweet water from the Ocean on the heaven).

This translation is by Pickthal with parenthesis from my side to make things clear.

So, you could see that author of Quran didn't know about that rain water comes from evaporation from the water which is already present on the earth.

But the author of Quran thought that rain water comes from the sky (from the ocean of sweet water on the heavens). And then God had to sent this water only in a "measured quantity" to stay on the earth. And since if sweet water comes contantly from the sky, then whole world will be flooded with water, therefore, God then had to take away/withdraw this extra water on the earth too.

Are you able to see the pseudo-science in Quran now?

We again find that Ahadith are also mentioning this sweet water on the heavens:

Sahih Bukahri, Book of Merits of Ansar (link: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/113):
... then Holy Prophet said: ' Then I was made to ascend to Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary) Behold! Its fruits were like the jars of Hajr (i.e. a place near Medina) and its leaves were as big as the ears of elephants. Gabriel said, 'This is the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary) . Behold ! There ran four rivers, two were hidden and two were visible, I asked, 'What are these two kinds of rivers, O Gabriel?' He replied,' As for the hidden rivers, they are two rivers in Paradise and the visible rivers are the Nile and the Euphrates.'

Today, we have been asking the Muslims how come the water of Neil and Euphrates comes from Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (which is above the 7 heavens). But Muslims don't reply.
Why?
Because Muslims are unable to tell the fanstasy story today that God makes the sweet water at Sidratul-Muntaha to rain down from heavens to Neil and Euphrates.

Sahih Muslim, Book of The Book of Paradise, its Description, its Bounties and its Inhabitants (Link: https://sunnah.com/muslim/53/30):

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.
Click to expand...
In 1580, Bernard Palissy was the first man to describe the present day concept of 'water cycle'. He described how water evaporates from the oceans and cools to form clouds. The clouds move inland where they rise, condense and fall as rain. This water gathers as lakes and streams and flows back to the ocean in a continuous cycle. In the 7th century BC, Thales of Miletus believed that surface spray of the oceans was picked up by the wind and carried inland to fall as rain. In earlier times people did not know the source of underground water. They thought the water of the oceans, under the effect of winds, was thrust towards the interior of the continents. They also believed that the water returned by a secret passage, or the Great Abyss. This passage is connected to the oceans and has been called the 'Tartarus', since Plato's time. Even Descartes, a great thinker of the eighteenth century, subscribed to this view. Till the nineteenth century, Aristotle's theory was prevalent. According to this theory, water was condensed in cool mountain caverns and formed underground lakes that fed springs. Today, we know that the rainwater that seeps into the cracks of the ground is responsible for this.

The water cycle is described by the Qur'an in the following verses:

"Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours."
Al-Qur'an 39:21
"He sends down rain From the sky And with it gives life to The earth after it is dead: Verily in that are Signs For those who are wise."
Al-Qur'an 30:24
"And We send down water from the sky according to (due) measure, and We cause it to soak in the soil; And We certainly are able to drain it off (with ease)."
Al-Qur'an 23:18
No other text dating back 1400 years ago gives such an accurate description of the water cycle.

(ii) Winds Impregnate the Clouds

"And We send the fecundating winds, Then cause the rain to descend From the sky, therewith providing You with water (in abundance)."
Al-Qur'an 15:22
The Arabic word used here is lawaqih, which is the plural of laqih from laqaha, which means to impregnate or fecundate. In this context, impregnate means that the wind pushes the clouds together increasing the condensation that causes lightning and thus rain. A similar description is found in the Qur'an: "It is Allah Who sends the winds, and they raise the clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest raindrops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of His servants as He wills, behold, they do rejoice!" [Al-Qur'an 30:48]

The Qur'anic descriptions are absolutely accurate and agree perfectly with modern data on hydrology. The water cycle is described in several verses of the Glorious Qur'an, including 3:9, 7:57, 13:17, 25:48- 49, 36:34, 50:9-11, 56:68-70, 67:30 and 86:11.
 
gazza619 said:
The Qur'anic descriptions are absolutely accurate and agree perfectly with modern data on hydrology. The water cycle is described in several verses of the Glorious Qur'an, including 3:9, 7:57, 13:17, 25:48- 49, 36:34, 50:9-11, 56:68-70, 67:30 and 86:11.
Click to expand...

So is it the water cycle, Archangel Mikaeel or God himself who controls the rain or climate?

Most renowned internet dawah merchants now admit there is no science in the Qur'an, that it is a book of signs. These dawah merchants were taken to task by athiest on the internet and were made to admit that the embryology described in the Qur'an was inaccurate. I can send you a video link. Furthermore blame was attached to Maurice Bucaille who in 1976 I think, wrote a book ' The Qur'an, Bible and Science ( funded by House of Saud), which was to become a dominating theme in the Islamic world for the next forty years or so, some dawah merchants have labelled it Bucaillism, Zakar Naik suffers from it the most.

Also most Muslims alive now using the internet would have been greatly influenced by it, giving them false evidence for their faith exactly when it was about to come under severe scrutiny.

I don't understand why Muslims care so much about the Science, why does whatever Science say matter so much to you, you have faith, utter faith, that should be enough.

Science does _not_ allow you to cherry pick which bits Science you lay faith in, unlike the Qur'an where all Muslims, me included when I was one, cherry pick the verses that justify their own worries, wishes and wants, it's human nature to do so.

So if you want the water cycle, you _have_ to take evolution. I don't think you'd wanna take that deal.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
So is it the water cycle, Archangel Mikaeel or God himself who controls the rain or climate?

Most renowned internet dawah merchants now admit there is no science in the Qur'an, that it is a book of signs. These dawah merchants were taken to task by athiest on the internet and were made to admit that the embryology described in the Qur'an was inaccurate. I can send you a video link. Furthermore blame was attached to Maurice Bucaille who in 1976 I think, wrote a book ' The Qur'an, Bible and Science ( funded by House of Saud), which was to become a dominating theme in the Islamic world for the next forty years or so, some dawah merchants have labelled it Bucaillism, Zakar Naik suffers from it the most.

Also most Muslims alive now using the internet would have been greatly influenced by it, giving them false evidence for their faith exactly when it was about to come under severe scrutiny.

I don't understand why Muslims care so much about the Science, why does whatever Science say matter so much to you, you have faith, utter faith, that should be enough.

Science does _not_ allow you to cherry pick which bits Science you lay faith in, unlike the Qur'an where all Muslims, me included when I was one, cherry pick the verses that justify their own worries, wishes and wants, it's human nature to do so.

So if you want the water cycle, you _have_ to take evolution. I don't think you'd wanna take that deal.
Click to expand...
I absolutely do not cherry pick. Science matters to us as well because Science can help the non believers believe in Allah and in the Quran.

The absolute purpose of a Muslim is and should be to spread their faith (in a kind and unforceful way).
 
Would strongly advise posters, some of the threads are sensitive. Either add something meaningful to the discussion or do not post. This message was not for Azmi or devilsadvokat
 
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gazza619 said:
When Allah says he sent down Iron, how can you assume he is saying he sent down iron from heaven?
Click to expand...

All the things that God sends down (نازل کرنا) is from the heavens.

The Arabic word used in the verse 57:25 is وأنزلنا , which is a proof that Allah send it down from the heavens.

What proof do you need more?

And most surprisingly, how it has been counted as miracle, while all the elements except for Helium have come from space?

Also you have convieniently not commented on the other verses which are scientifically true, I guess you didnt have an answer?
Click to expand...

No sir.
I didn't commented upon all these verses while:
(1) Firstly you are changing the Topic, without giving answers to our questions regarding Stone Age, Iron Age, Neanderthal DNA in only non-African Humans. Were they another species? If yes, why then ribs of Adam were used for Eve, and why then incest between children of Adam?
(2) Secondly, the already started discussions about sending of iron and salty/sweet oceans is incomplete.

What does it brings when you leave one discussion incomplete and then jump to 10 other topics?
 
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gazza619 said:
In 1580, Bernard Palissy was the first man to describe the present day concept of 'water cycle'. He described how water evaporates from the oceans and cools to form clouds. The clouds move inland where they rise, condense and fall as rain. This water gathers as lakes and streams and flows back to the ocean in a continuous cycle. In the 7th century BC, Thales of Miletus believed that surface spray of the oceans was picked up by the wind and carried inland to fall as rain. In earlier times people did not know the source of underground water. They thought the water of the oceans, under the effect of winds, was thrust towards the interior of the continents. They also believed that the water returned by a secret passage, or the Great Abyss. This passage is connected to the oceans and has been called the 'Tartarus', since Plato's time. Even Descartes, a great thinker of the eighteenth century, subscribed to this view. Till the nineteenth century, Aristotle's theory was prevalent. According to this theory, water was condensed in cool mountain caverns and formed underground lakes that fed springs. Today, we know that the rainwater that seeps into the cracks of the ground is responsible for this.

The water cycle is described by the Qur'an in the following verses:

"Seest thou not that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours."
Al-Qur'an 39:21
"He sends down rain From the sky And with it gives life to The earth after it is dead: Verily in that are Signs For those who are wise."
Al-Qur'an 30:24
"And We send down water from the sky according to (due) measure, and We cause it to soak in the soil; And We certainly are able to drain it off (with ease)."
Al-Qur'an 23:18
No other text dating back 1400 years ago gives such an accurate description of the water cycle.

(ii) Winds Impregnate the Clouds

"And We send the fecundating winds, Then cause the rain to descend From the sky, therewith providing You with water (in abundance)."
Al-Qur'an 15:22
The Arabic word used here is lawaqih, which is the plural of laqih from laqaha, which means to impregnate or fecundate. In this context, impregnate means that the wind pushes the clouds together increasing the condensation that causes lightning and thus rain. A similar description is found in the Qur'an: "It is Allah Who sends the winds, and they raise the clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest raindrops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of His servants as He wills, behold, they do rejoice!" [Al-Qur'an 30:48]

The Qur'anic descriptions are absolutely accurate and agree perfectly with modern data on hydrology. The water cycle is described in several verses of the Glorious Qur'an, including 3:9, 7:57, 13:17, 25:48- 49, 36:34, 50:9-11, 56:68-70, 67:30 and 86:11.
Click to expand...

This is not an answer to the salty/sweet oceans miracle which you posted above.

Why don't you want to directly answer that post, but instead want to copy paste other topics?

I promise we will discuss all your Quranic miracles one by one, but no jumping please.
 
gazza619 said:
I absolutely do not cherry pick. Science matters to us as well because Science can help the non believers believe in Allah and in the Quran.
Click to expand...

But I said you can't cherry pick from Science either, or you have to accept Evolution. If you respond with "its only a theory" let me tell you right now a 'theory' in scientific terms is the nearest thing you can have to a _fact_ as Science does not deal with absolute proofs. Evolution is fact (there might be debate as to some inconsequential details) just as much gravity, the earth going round the Sun and that microorganism cause disease, which is otherwise known as germ theory. That would have been handy science 1400 years ago.

The absolute purpose of a Muslim is and should be to spread their faith (in a kind and unforceful way).
Click to expand...

You are a gent and a scholar but can you see that some people may have a problem with this.

I just wanted to say that I don't hate any Muslim for their faith, I hate Islam I guess. Like I have tried to mention twice now the vast majority of Islamic code lived by ordinary people, is a qualified good for society. One can lead a perfectly moral, good, respectful, honourable, worthy life with the right verses from the Quran. Attaching divinity to it is the issue.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
But I said you can't cherry pick from Science either, or you have to accept Evolution. If you respond with "its only a theory" let me tell you right now a 'theory' in scientific terms is the nearest thing you can have to a _fact_ as Science does not deal with absolute proofs. Evolution is fact (there might be debate as to some inconsequential details) just as much gravity, the earth going round the Sun and that microorganism cause disease, which is otherwise known as germ theory. That would have been handy science 1400 years ago.



You are a gent and a scholar but can you see that some people may have a problem with this.

I just wanted to say that I don't hate any Muslim for their faith, I hate Islam I guess. Like I have tried to mention twice now the vast majority of Islamic code lived by ordinary people, is a qualified good for society. One can lead a perfectly moral, good, respectful, honourable, worthy life with the right verses from the Quran. Attaching divinity to it is the issue.
Click to expand...

Wrong. "Law" is the closest thing science has to facts.

And I thought you weren't a physicist. Or do you only become one whenever it is convenient for you?
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
Wrong. "Law" is the closest thing science has to facts.

And I thought you weren't a physicist. Or do you only become one whenever it is convenient for you?
Click to expand...

Kasme, I despair, what if you wrong, is it easy as that, you will believe in Evolution if it says otherwise?

Can I presume you are taking me seriously now after your last post to me?

Nothing is fact fact in Science as it doesn't deal with proofs.

I will give you time to do some research, look up scientific theory, I think you are getting confused by laws of gravity, well gravity is described best by theory of relativity.

Research so you don't look a fool on the internet.
 
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In general, a scientific law is the description of an observed phenomenon. It doesn't explain why the phenomenon exists or what causes it. The explanation of a phenomenon is called a scientific theory. It is a misconception that theories turn into laws with enough research.

Mr Rizvi, I don't need to be a physicist, Professor or Sheikh Google is your friend, well not yours in this case.

Also that the Earth goes round the Sun is known as Heliocentric Theory.

That disease is caused by micro organism is known as Germ Theory.

That fire needs oxygen to combust is the Oxygen Combustion Theory.

I think most Muslims hear theory in relation to Evolution and it gives them s false sense of security that they don't have to accept it, because they either willfully or unwillfully take theory in the philosophical sense and not the scientific sense, a sense in which it is near enough FACT.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Most renowned internet dawah merchants now admit there is no science in the Qur'an, that it is a book of signs. These dawah merchants were taken to task by athiest on the internet and were made to admit that the embryology described in the Qur'an was inaccurate. I can send you a video link. Furthermore blame was attached to Maurice Bucaille who in 1976 I think, wrote a book ' The Qur'an, Bible and Science ( funded by House of Saud), which was to become a dominating theme in the Islamic world for the next forty years or so, some dawah merchants have labelled it Bucaillism, Zakar Naik suffers from it the most.

Also most Muslims alive now using the internet would have been greatly influenced by it, giving them false evidence for their faith exactly when it was about to come under severe scrutiny.
.
Click to expand...

I pointed out this similarly in a another thread. Further more, the burden on Muslims is even IF they can give a million instances of accurate science in the Quran, atheists like you just need one which isn't to debunk it. There is an elephant in the room which is not being addressed here. Islam is not just the Quran, it's also the sunnah. Even the sahih hadiths are filled with teachings & statements that defy science & logic, for example there is one sahih narration that tries to educate us that when a baby is conceived, it will resemble the parent who had the orgasm first!! So how are Muslims going to deal with these things? Reject it? The same hadiths contains/is the bedrock of the 5 pillars of Islam.

Devilsadvokat said:
One can lead a perfectly moral, good, respectful, honourable, worthy life with the right verses from the Quran. Attaching divinity to it is the issue.
Click to expand...

If you can use your brain/discretion to pick the "right" verses, why you need the Book at all?
 
[MENTION=147223]Devilsadvokat[/MENTION]
I have no idea what those sentences meant in your reply. Please paraphrase. However, I've realised we both were wrong. Both a Theory or a Law could be a fact. E.g. evolution is called "a theory and a fact" by many scientific communities. Hence that clears some of the misunderstanding we had. The difference between us is; we, as Muslims take religion as the absolute truth and find whatever we can from science to support our narrative. You, on the other hand, take scientific theory/law as the absolute truth while ignoring religion as mystical creation of man.
 
Hadi Rizvi said:
[MENTION=147223]Devilsadvokat[/MENTION]
I have no idea what those sentences meant in your reply. Please paraphrase. However, I've realised we both were wrong. Both a Theory or a Law could be a fact. E.g. evolution is called "a theory and a fact" by many scientific communities. Hence that clears some of the misunderstanding we had. The difference between us is; we, as Muslims take religion as the absolute truth and find whatever we can from science to support our narrative. You, on the other hand, take scientific theory/law as the absolute truth while ignoring religion as mystical creation of man.
Click to expand...

Which sentences did you not understand, which post, please kindly point it out, I will endeavour to paraphrase.

No I wasn't wrong, just you, there is no Law of Evolution, just a theory, methinks you got thrown by Laws of Gravity and as you can see gravity in action each time you climb outta window in the 15th floor of some apartment block. But the laws are based on the Theory of Relativity.

I did not necessarily discount Law as fact, my aim was to nail down the fact that a scientific theory is as good as a fact in the real world.

There is something called natural law, haven't looked into it.

Yes absolutely, religion is the creation of man, probably since the first hominid that had an actual thought enter his head, he must have thought God wad speaking to him. I wonder who that hominid was?
 
Mages said:
There is an elephant in the room which is not being addressed here. Islam is not just the Quran, it's also the sunnah. Even the sahih hadiths are filled with teachings & statements that defy science & logic.
Click to expand...

Debunk the Quran and the hadith follow naturally.

I was once told by a student of the top Saudi religious institution that his sheikhs so to speak reject logic where religion is concerned.

As evidence for ignoring logic is the hadith that states that one can wipe the top of the foot with water, if logic was relevant, the sheikhs say that the hadith would have stated that the bottom of the foot be wiped.

If you can use your brain/discretion to pick the "right" verses, why you need the Book at all?
Click to expand...

Humans apparently are hard wired to believe in a God.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
But I said you can't cherry pick from Science either, or you have to accept Evolution. If you respond with "its only a theory" let me tell you right now a 'theory' in scientific terms is the nearest thing you can have to a _fact_ as Science does not deal with absolute proofs. Evolution is fact (there might be debate as to some inconsequential details) just as much gravity, the earth going round the Sun and that microorganism cause disease, which is otherwise known as germ theory. That would have been handy science 1400 years ago.



You are a gent and a scholar but can you see that some people may have a problem with this.

I just wanted to say that I don't hate any Muslim for their faith, I hate Islam I guess. Like I have tried to mention twice now the vast majority of Islamic code lived by ordinary people, is a qualified good for society. One can lead a perfectly moral, good, respectful, honourable, worthy life with the right verses from the Quran. Attaching divinity to it is the issue.
Click to expand...
Evolution is an interesting subject. Let me correct you though, it is not a fact, it is a theory which has missing links.
If we had evolved from Apes today we should have had some species (in museums) who were between humans and apes. Even according to experts of molecular biology it is absurd to think that the DNA of human beings evolved from apes.
Darwin’s theory was a “FALSE” theory and shall remain a theory. It was never a proclaimed fact. Majority of scientists do not accept this theory. It is still taught in schools as theory not a fact.

Another important point, if evolution was a fact than why dont they teach it in medical colleges? Once something becomes a fact it comes into text books of medicine. When theory becomes a fact, it becomes a law, and hence it should have been called by now the law of evolution.

You will be dissappointed to know that evolution is a theory hence restricted to primary and secondary school children (or some universities) to keep them amused. We even used to make fun at school since there are missing links in the theory of evolution so when we found an idiot we would call him the missing link.

We muslims believe in the fact of creation not the theory of evolution.

Let me make you happy though by telling you that Allah talks about Big Bang:

". . . the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30).

Following this big explosion, Allah

". . . turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11).

Thus the elements and the matter destined to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
 
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gazza619 said:
Evolution is an interesting subject. Let me correct you though, it is not a fact, it is a theory which has missing links
Click to expand...

I suggest you have a chat with Mr Rizvi, he came round to agree with me that Evolution is a fact.

If we had evolved from Apes today we should have had some species (in museums) who were between humans and apes.
Click to expand...

I think we do, every fossil is a transitional fossil. The fossil record is one of the main evidences for Evolution. The transition from ape ape to human ape can be shown using fossils. The first things on the body that changed during the transition are the hands and feet, because they were the body parts most in contact with the environment.

Even according to experts of molecular biology it is absurd to think that the DNA of human beings evolved from apes.
Click to expand...

Do you have citation from these experts in molecular biology, I have peer reviewed scientific papers that state we are 98 per cent chimp, tho we do have 55 per cent same DNA with cabbage or banana, can't remember which one exactly, again proving we came from the same origin, everything did.

Darwin’s theory was a “FALSE” theory and shall remain a theory. It was never a proclaimed fact. Majority of scientists do not accept this theory. It is still taught in schools as theory not a fact.
Click to expand...

Darwin's theory has stood the test of time, that living organism evolve, on the micro and macro scale is as much fact as gravity. I refer you to Mr Rizvi regarding scientific theory, a scientific theory is the nearest thing to scientific fact without calling it as such. There is no argument the animals evolve through natural selection. Please don't ask me why if we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys.

Another important point, if evolution was a fact than why dont they teach it in medical colleges? Once something becomes a fact it comes into text books of medicine. When theory becomes a fact, it becomes a law, and hence it should have been called by now the law of evolution.
Click to expand...

There are no equations in Evolution, I think there are regarding gravity, hence law but Laws of Gravity are based on the _theory_ of general relativity.


https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/evolution-in-medicine/

A recent series of article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) discusses the role of evolutionary biology in modern medicine. The authors collectively make a forceful point – medicine is an applied science. It is based upon a number of basic sciences, and one of those basic sciences is evolution.

The above paragraph is from the link above it. Must do better.

You will be dissappointed to know that evolution is a theory hence restricted to primary and secondary school children (or some universities) to keep them amused. We even used to make fun at school since there are missing links in the theory of evolution so when we found an idiot we would call him the missing link.
Click to expand...

Do you go to Islamic school? I think you may have confused British schools for some schools in USA, in the more religious areas.

We muslims believe in the fact of creation not the theory of evolution.
Click to expand...

There is no fact of creation, even if there was, the Theory of evolution does not contradict it as evolution is concerned with life once it has started, it does not concern the start of life, that is Abiogenesis.

Let me make you happy though by telling you that Allah talks about Big Bang:

". . . the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30).

Following this big explosion, Allah
Click to expand...

It's amazing how evidence in found in the Qur'an after scientist propose theories, it would be good if the scholars of the Qur'an told us before. Usually they just make the Quranic verses fit, if tomorrow they found that it wasn't big bang but summat else, you would fit the Quranic verses to suit the new theory. I don't just think that, I know that, as it has happened in my life time, regarding determining the sex of foetus.

"
 
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Devilsadvokat said:
I suggest you have a chat with Mr Rizvi, he came round to agree with me that Evolution is a fact.



I think we do, every fossil is a transitional fossil. The fossil record is one of the main evidences for Evolution. The transition from ape ape to human ape can be shown using fossils. The first things on the body that changed during the transition are the hands and feet, because they were the body parts most in contact with the environment.



Do you have citation from these experts in molecular biology, I have peer reviewed scientific papers that state we are 98 per cent chimp, tho we do have 55 per cent same DNA with cabbage or banana, can't remember which one exactly, again proving we came from the same origin, everything did.



Darwin's theory has stood the test of time, that living organism evolve, on the micro and macro scale is as much fact as gravity. I refer you to Mr Rizvi regarding scientific theory, a scientific theory is the nearest thing to scientific fact without calling it as such. There is no argument the animals evolve through natural selection. Please don't ask me why if we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys.



There are no equations in Evolution, I think there are regarding gravity, hence law but Laws of Gravity are based on the _theory_ of general relativity.


https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/evolution-in-medicine/

A recent series of article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) discusses the role of evolutionary biology in modern medicine. The authors collectively make a forceful point – medicine is an applied science. It is based upon a number of basic sciences, and one of those basic sciences is evolution.

The above paragraph is from the link above it. Must do better.



Do you go to Islamic school? I think you may have confused British schools for some schools in USA, in the more religious areas.



There is no fact of creation, even if there was, the Theory of evolution does not contradict it as evolution is concerned with life once it has started, it does not concern the start of life, that is Abiogenesis.



It's amazing how evidence in found in the Qur'an after scientist propose theories, it would be good if the scholars of the Qur'an told us before. Usually they just make the Quranic verses fit, if tomorrow they found that it wasn't big bang but summat else, you would fit the Quranic verses to suit the new theory. I don't just think that, I know that, as it has happened in my life time, regarding determining the sex of foetus.

"
Click to expand...
Quran is a book written 1400 years ago. The verses are the same. Yes with time we muslims have understood the meaning in a bettee way but it is the same glorious Quran which mentions scientific facts after scientific facts.

I think you are getting confused between creation and evolution. I can perhaps narrate a proper definition:

“Evolution is the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth”

“Creation is the action or process of bringing something into existence”

I have no idea how to see similarities between the two. Mind you, we are talking about creation/evolution of humans here.

Not interested in what Mr Rizvi has say. Narrate me the Quran or quote me a scientific fact (not theories). You were quoting his scientific theory which according to you is nearest thing to a scientific fact. Again not interested in nearest facts. or almost fact, or theories. Please quote a fact and then I will answer.

Nope I didnt go Islamic School, does it matter?

Read the article you quoted from series of article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). All I can say is I felt cheated as I wasted my time reading it. Were you assuming I would not read the article? Or did you not read the article at all? It talks about evolutionary biology and the obvious ways in which evolutionary principles apply to infectious diseases. It talks about how we live in a largely hygienic environment, and have even taken steps to eliminate parasites and how this has unintentionally deprived our immune systems of needed stimulation, resulting in poor immune regulation, and subsequent increase in auto-immune diseases like asthma and multiple sclerosis.
 
gazza619 said:
Evolution is an interesting subject. Let me correct you though, it is not a fact, it is a theory which has missing links.
.
Click to expand...

Ah the usual "theory" rebuttal. First of all I would like you to read up on the definition of a scientific theory. It isn't a theory as in someone cooked up and which everyone had to then believe without any opposition or research since it was divine ordinance.

Scientific Theory
noun

A coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation.

Contrary to popular belief, when scientists use the word "theory", they are not referring to conjectures that they have pulled out of thin air and have no data to support such claims. The scientific use of the word "theory" is much different than the colloquial use.

In science, a theory refers to an integrated set of principles that explain and predict events that are observed in the natural world. Theories, in the scientific sense, summarize and explain facts, and imply testable predictions that allow for the falsification of the theory. Theory is vital to scientific endeavour, as it generates hypotheses to be tested, gives direction to research (and even suggests new areas for research), and, if the theory is good, has a high amount of explanatory power without requiring extensive modification to the theory. Theory without data is just conjecture, but data without a theoretical explanation is as good as meaningless to scientific practice.

An example of a scientific theory that is often mistaken as just a "theory" is the theory of evolution. Contrary to common misconceptions, evolutionary biology is one of the most prolific fields in science, with hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed papers attesting to the theory's veracity, and an ever-increasing body of research.
 
Evolutionary medicine or Darwinian medicine is the application of modern evolutionary theory to understanding health and disease. Modern medical research and practice have focused on the molecular and physiological mechanisms underlying health and disease, while evolutionary medicine focuses on the question of why evolution has shaped these mechanisms in ways that may leave us susceptible to disease. The evolutionary approach has driven important advances in our understanding of cancer,[1] autoimmune disease,[2] and anatomy.[3] Medical schools have been slower to integrate evolutionary approaches because of limitations on what can be added to existing medical curricula.[4

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_medicine
 
gazza619 said:
Quran is a book written 1400 years ago. The verses are the same. Yes with time we muslims have understood the meaning in a bettee way but it is the same glorious Quran which mentions scientific facts after scientific facts
Click to expand...



I thought I had sent the link in which leading dawahgandist Hamza Tzortzis admits the Quran is not a book of science but a book of signs.

https://youtu.be/fyf4gecrY8c

He explains that Maurice Bucaille who worked for House of Saud wrote, The Qur'an, The Bible and Science which modern Muslims took and ran and ran and ran and ran with it, erroneously.

He did so because he was shown that Quranic verses regarding embryology is wrong and as I said we only need to find _one_ inaccuracy to debunk the science in the Qur'an. I mean to I have to mention the Quranic verse which states that shooting stars are spears aimed at the heart of Djinn?
 
gazza619 said:
I think you are getting confused between creation and evolution. I can perhaps narrate a proper definition:

“Evolution is the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth”

“Creation is the action or process of bringing something into existence”
Click to expand...

Tkay, so creation is big bang and creation is the correct term for the first biological matter on Earth ( Which scientist call Abiogenesis). Evolution takes over after the first biological entity is formed.

Not interested in what Mr Rizvi has say.
Click to expand...

Well he was saying the same things as you but credit to him he agreed with the rest of the scientific world as to what theory means. Maybe Deadball can get thru to you.

Or did you not read the article at all?
Click to expand...

To be honest I didn't, don't tell me I linked you to some pseudo science site.

Once again the fact that microorganism cause disease is known as Germ Theory.

The fact that the Earth travels round the Sun is known as The Heliocentric Theory.

The fact that fire needs oxygen to burn is known as the Theory if Oxygen Combustion.

I could carry on citing at least ten more facts that are known as theories.

I think the only reason they are not called facts is because science does not deal in 100 per cent proofs, but for layman like me and you, it's easier to treat it as fact, not unless you have emotional reasons not to treat them as facts.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Tkay, so creation is big bang and creation is the correct term for the first biological matter on Earth ( Which scientist call Abiogenesis). Evolution takes over after the first biological entity is formed.



Well he was saying the same things as you but credit to him he agreed with the rest of the scientific world as to what theory means. Maybe Deadball can get thru to you.



To be honest I didn't, don't tell me I linked you to some pseudo science site.

Once again the fact that microorganism cause disease is known as Germ Theory.

The fact that the Earth travels round the Sun is known as The Heliocentric Theory.

The fact that fire needs oxygen to burn is known as the Theory if Oxygen Combustion.

I could carry on citing at least ten more facts that are known as theories.

I think the only reason they are not called facts is because science does not deal in 100 per cent proofs, but for layman like me and you, it's easier to treat it as fact, not unless you have emotional reasons not to treat them as facts.
Click to expand...
I dont think there is much for me to comment here as you have accepted the fact (not theory) that you didnt read the article which you were quoting on your point of evolution. So i rest my case there. (I am beginning to doubt if you even read my post, if you dont then please let me know I actually have a life outside this forum).

Secondly when you say science does not deal in 100 per cent proofs, what is the percantage of the chances that humans evolved from apes?

Allah say,

“O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.” [Al Hujurat : 6].

It is not a sin if you doubt about islam. Allah challenges us to test the Holy Quran (Al baqarah : 23–24). So, skepticism in islam is very recommended.

Just because we have same characteristics in our DNA or body structure, doesn't mean that you were on the same species as Apes. You could see apes who could think, but they couldn't talk like us.

To conclude evolution is a religion, its not even a science (nevermind a fact).

PS: Off topic but I quite like the movie series ‘The Planet of the Apes’. Never missed a movie. Not because I saw it as a fact but i see it as a fiction and a mode of entertainment.
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color#Genetics

Comparisons between known skin pigmentation genes in chimpanzees and modern Africans show that dark skin evolved along with the loss of body hair about 1.2 million years ago and that this common ancestor had dark skin. Investigations into dark skinned populations in South Asia and Melanesia indicate that skin pigmentation in these populations is due to the preservation of this ancestral state and not due to new variations on a previously lightened population.

Always wondered what colour Adam would be and how we get black, white, brown etc...
 
Devilsadvokat said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color#Genetics

Comparisons between known skin pigmentation genes in chimpanzees and modern Africans show that dark skin evolved along with the loss of body hair about 1.2 million years ago and that this common ancestor had dark skin. Investigations into dark skinned populations in South Asia and Melanesia indicate that skin pigmentation in these populations is due to the preservation of this ancestral state and not due to new variations on a previously lightened population.

Always wondered what colour Adam would be and how we get black, white, brown etc...
Click to expand...

So now you have gone to wikipedia? I call that a downgrade.

See what wikipedia says (fact) about evolution:

Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.[1][2] These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction. Different characteristics tend to exist within any given population as a result of mutation, genetic recombination and other sources of genetic variation.[3] Evolution occurs when evolutionary processes such as natural selection (including sexual selection) and genetic drift act on this variation, resulting in certain characteristics becoming more common or rare within a population.[4] It is this process of evolution that has given rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms and molecules.[5]
 
gazza619 said:
I dont think there is much for me to comment here as you have accepted the fact (not theory) that you didnt read the article which you were quoting on your point of evolution. So i rest my case there.
Click to expand...

Are you being serious? I read the first paragraph, it was a mistake not to read the rest, I then acknowledged my oversight and linked to a site I did read more than opening paragraph.

(I am beginning to doubt if you even read my post, if you dont then please let me know I actually have a life outside this forum).
Click to expand...

And I called you a gent and a scholar, of course I read your posts, I have been taking them to bits all day long.

Secondly when you say science does not deal in 100 per cent proofs, what is the percantage of the chances that humans evolved from apes?
Click to expand...

More than the Quranic hypothesis, that God fashioned him with his own hands.

So, skepticism in islam is very recommended.
Click to expand...

So how come I get the feeling that you are preparing to shut down debate. Islam says question everything but God, hardly scepticism.

Just because we have same characteristics in our DNA or body structure, doesn't mean that you were on the same species as Apes. You could see apes who could think, but they couldn't talk like us.
Click to expand...

Maybe it would be better if you read up about Evolution without preconceived notions and thinking you know what Evolution is about. We are a different species of ape,the apex of the hominids. Homo erectus, habilis, and a host of others. The gene for speech is a small mutation which made a huge difference.

To conclude evolution is a religion, its not even a science (nevermind a fact).
Click to expand...

I hope the thesis you wrote to come to that conclusion is offered for peer review.

PS: Off topic but I quite like the movie series ‘The Planet of the Apes’. Never missed a movie. Not because I saw it as a fact but i see it as a fiction and a mode of entertainment.
Click to expand...

It's funny isn't it the closeness of ape apes to human apes, I mean didn't Allah turn a particular tribe of people into monkeys! So they realised they were close but got them the wrong way round.

Humans to Ape apes - Islam
Ape apes to Humans - Science n Evolution

You decide.
 
gazza619 said:
So now you have gone to wikipedia? I call that a downgrade.

See what wikipedia says (fact) about evolution:

Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.[1][2] These characteristics are the expressions of genes that are passed on from parent to offspring during reproduction. Different characteristics tend to exist within any given population as a result of mutation, genetic recombination and other sources of genetic variation.[3] Evolution occurs when evolutionary processes such as natural selection (including sexual selection) and genetic drift act on this variation, resulting in certain characteristics becoming more common or rare within a population.[4] It is this process of evolution that has given rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms and molecules.[5]
Click to expand...

How does any of that detract from what I have said?
 
Zeshan547 said:
All you guys are not getting the very basic idea,,, that you guys are trying to prove spiritualism and metaphysical things with materialism and physical science,,, both may overlap in some regards but on the whole these are very different and both can exist independently,, and it's upto anyone in which one's believe, religion or science, no one is forcing anyone but Plz respect the other sides ideas and views even if you don't agree,,, Peace...
Click to expand...

Can you explain what is spiritualism, in specific terms??

Spiritualism is mostly about how you feel, it is designed to trigger emotions, its not a tool to discover objective reality. Science is about discovering what is real independent of how you feel or it's associated with you. Even evidence gathering in Science is more multi-dimensional, independent of source(who comes up with the theory), keep on improving using as much different and independent tools to an extend that now Human senses is least reliable tool, since our senses are not that sensitive...

If spiritualism is better than Science in explaining reality, well nobody has stopped those guy, its free market of ideas, they cannot compete and hide behind religion, they prey on helpless and ignorant masses... Its a drug therapy, it does not solution to real problems!!
 
Musakhel said:
The scholars say Whatever we think of Allah, Allah is other than that, if you extrapolate the meaning of this, it means that nothing that we can observe of creation can be compared to Allah, so Allah did not come from something, Allah always was before there existed anything, And Allah is as he was, since he is not subject to change.

As for your examples of science and Quran, this is the wrong understanding of looking at the Quran, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did not explain the Quran with scientific explanation rather The Quran was a there to guide people to salvation.

It is a book of guidance not a science Manuel.
Click to expand...

Can you explain why we cannot understand Allah, this is COP out??

Why those arguments were not made, when Prophet was explaining logical benefits of One God Vs many(how many Gods will fight with each other and world will be in Chaos) ?? - Why he had to use logic to convince others about the nature of Allah. Now Faithfuls are finding it hard to explain true nature of Allah to Atheists, since we know lot more about how Universe works, most of what Quran talk about is primitive literature. Its not that Quran does not talk about logic or Science, problem is that it's too primitive and outdated.

Some of the Stats about Quran:

1. Quran has 6600+ Verses
2. Name Allah has appeared 2600+ times, that's more than 40% of all verses. God/Allah is Trump on steroids, I cannot think of an example where person/entity is so much full of himself. Why you will be talking about your self so much and yet your followers claim after 1400 years, we cannot ever know any thing about him, now that is blind following of highest order :yk2:

2. God praises himself 1000+ verses - There is a reason I call God as Trump on Steroids. He knows everything, he is better than everybody, mostly by empty statements, the same empty statement repeated all the time, much like our President without caring about backing it with data ;-)

3. God Threaten people around 1000 times in those verses. Carrot and stick is his model, he is using it all the time, fear is big part of his tool not the intellect. Book even starts off every clearly, that this book is only for people, who have blind faith in it...Now, most important book ever created, starts with such pre-text, so much for the importance of logic and intellect. Maybe this is the most important ingredient of Spiritualism, as Master Ughaway said: "You have to believe" :Ashwin

4. God talks about rewards about 1000 times as well. This is again carrot and stick policy of every religion. If you take out After life from Islam, all defender of Faith will care very little about it. All this Army of faith is basically scared of what will happen to them in After life, like parents used to scare kids of Jin/Ghost and other super natural...Faithfuls are mostly kids not grown up or scared for life. That's why indoctrination of Faith is considered worse form of mental torture, it stays with you for life ;-)
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Debunk the Quran and the hadith follow naturally.

I was once told by a student of the top Saudi religious institution that his sheikhs so to speak reject logic where religion is concerned.

As evidence for ignoring logic is the hadith that states that one can wipe the top of the foot with water, if logic was relevant, the sheikhs say that the hadith would have stated that the bottom of the foot be wiped.

Humans apparently are hard wired to believe in a God.
Click to expand...

All cultures & religions have their myths and rituals where logic is not the yardstick. Its the realm of the unseen & am not too interested in debating it unless they are into chest thumping. I'm talking about literal proclamations & teachings that purposely goes into the realm of nature/science and fails miserably. Why was the need for the sahih sunnah to lay down details on how actually your child's feature may be influenced by you or your wife's orgasm timing. Why shoot in foot? Same thing goes to the Quran. For example why can't it just stop at saying "We created everything". Instead God talks too much & commits scientific blunder by saying "We created everything in pairs including mules"!! This is enough proof that these Books were not from the real God (if any).
 
gazza619 said:
". . . the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30).
Click to expand...

This is the biggest proof that Quran is scientifically wrong.

Big Ban happened 14 Billion years ago and there was no heaven an no earth present at that time (while any physical heaven still does not exist today).

And the planet earth came into being only about 5 billion years ago i.e. 9 billion years after the big bang.

But author of Quran is claiming that planet Earth was present right from the beginning.

What could be a bigger scientific mistake than this? Author of Quran thought that no one could check his fantasy stories, so he could boast all about himself during the process of creation of universe.

But science has become advanced enough to check these fantasy claims of the author of Quran and to prove them wrong.
 
Azmi said:
This is the biggest proof that Quran is scientifically wrong.

Big Ban happened 14 Billion years ago and there was no heaven an no earth present at that time (while any physical heaven still does not exist today).

And the planet earth came into being only about 5 billion years ago i.e. 9 billion years after the big bang.

But author of Quran is claiming that planet Earth was present right from the beginning.

What could be a bigger scientific mistake than this? Author of Quran thought that no one could check his fantasy stories, so he could boast all about himself during the process of creation of universe.

But science has become advanced enough to check these fantasy claims of the author of Quran and to prove them wrong.
Click to expand...

And Azmi applies the coup de grace, take a bow. I don't know why some Muslims insist in the Qur'an having scientific miracles within it, the more intellectual Muslims have squared their faith with acceptance of no scientific miracles, I suspect Evolution to be adopted in the next decade, albeit with amazing mental contortions.
 
Azmi said:
This is the biggest proof that Quran is scientifically wrong.

Big Ban happened 14 Billion years ago and there was no heaven an no earth present at that time (while any physical heaven still does not exist today).

And the planet earth came into being only about 5 billion years ago i.e. 9 billion years after the big bang.

But author of Quran is claiming that planet Earth was present right from the beginning.

What could be a bigger scientific mistake than this? Author of Quran thought that no one could check his fantasy stories, so he could boast all about himself during the process of creation of universe.

But science has become advanced enough to check these fantasy claims of the author of Quran and to prove them wrong.
Click to expand...

That isn't proof, Big Bang is a theory. You can't use a supposition as proof that another supposition is wrong. Hard. Solid. Demonstratively provable facts. That would serve your argument better.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
That isn't proof, Big Bang is a theory. You can't use a supposition as proof that another supposition is wrong. Hard. Solid. Demonstratively provable facts. That would serve your argument better.
Click to expand...

Another one with a lack of understanding as to what a scientific theory means, please pay attention at the back of the class.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
Another one with a lack of understanding as to what a scientific theory means, please pay attention at the back of the class.
Click to expand...

I am not saying Big Bang theory is wrong for what it's worth, just that you can't use it to demonstrably disprove creationism.
 
Devilsadvokat said:
And Azmi applies the coup de grace, take a bow. I don't know why some Muslims insist in the Qur'an having scientific miracles within it, the more intellectual Muslims have squared their faith with acceptance of no scientific miracles, I suspect Evolution to be adopted in the next decade, albeit with amazing mental contortions.
Click to expand...

I don't know, maybe because the exact same Pharaoh that Allah declared to make an example of (after he drowned) was found in water in a terribly preserved state. Case in point Ramesses II.

Also, I never disagreed about evolution. It is a very solid and comprehensive theory BUT it definitely is not the complete answer. I expect future modifications to it.

There are some answers which can never be discovered by humans so this arrogant path that atheists take that science will/has discovered everything and has the answer for everything is laughable. You just can't know what's beyond the event horizon of a black hole.
 
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