How many failures will Babar Azam be allowed as a #3? Asad Shafiq was allowed only three

[waleed88]

So let me get this straight. During Waqar's era whenever Pakistan lost or sunk in the rankings it was Waqar's fault, but after that it has always been a combination of conditions, lateral movement, selections, injuries, pneumonia.. am I missing anything?

Hamstring, 'dropped catches off Amir', ohhh who can forget 'earthquakes'

 

[Markhor]

So let me get this straight. During Waqar's era whenever Pakistan lost or sunk in the rankings it was Waqar's fault, but after that it has always been a combination of conditions, lateral movement, selections, injuries, pneumonia.. am I missing anything?

If Waqar had been in charge for these tough tours which he's conveniently managed to dodge then his record (which has mainly been padded by UAE successes) would also have taken a hit.

Waqar had been in charge of this Pakistan team for 4 out of the last 6 years so why shouldn't he be held accountable for failing to introduce youngsters to the Test team earlier, failing to give Azhar and Shafiq their rightful promotions in batting order, failing to settle on an opening combination, failing to try alternative bowlers from domestic and showing favouritism to Rahat, Wahab and Irfan, failing to groom a decent seam attack and presiding over our descent into 9th in ODI rankings ?

Who else should I hold accountable - the biriyani chefs ?

Also you haven't answered the question - what would Waqar have done differently in these ANZ tours ? Other than make the players run 15 laps around the ground or deliver one of his world-famous Microsoft Word reports after the series ?

 

[Slog]

Lowly West Indies ? They'd just won the T20 World Cup ! Whitewashing them was an excellent result. Nor can we take ODI wins in UAE for granted given our dismal record there - or even ODI wins in general after the Pep Guardiola of cricket that is Waqar took us to 9th in ODIs.

4-1 defeat to England was extremely disappointing but Arthur couldn't undo 6 years of ODI mediocrity in three weeks ! Under Waqar's second tenure between 2014-2016, Pakistan's bowling attack became the second WORST in the world in ODIs and that includes Associates !

For a coach who's strength was meant to be bowling - he left behind a bowling attack too dependent on spin, failed to understand requirements of bowling in modern LOIs and persisted with mediocre pacers like Wahab, Rahat and Irfan no matter what - totally failing to try younger alternatives in domestic cricket.

NZ defeat - combination of non-existent preparation and Pakistan's batsmen collapsing against lateral movement (as they've always done since time immemorial no matter who the coach is) was to blame.

As for this Australia series - which Pakistan team since the days of Mushtaq Mohammad in the 1970s HASN'T failed in Australia ? Javed Miandad, Bob Woolmer, Intikhab Alam, Mickey Arthur - losing in Australia is sadly part and parcel of Pakistan cricket and no coach will change that overnight.

What would Waqar have done differently ? I'm sure he'd have written a damn fine report in Microsoft Word about our failings and given his usual mantra about "reforming the system" but that's about it.

Very poor post

Seems like an angry rant and the bias is clear to see with the name calling which you perhaps think is funny.

If you cannot see that the test side has regressed under Mickey Arthur then it's beyond help. It's also curious to see the dishonesty where the UAE series wins are discredited under Waqar and people act as if we were always winning those when we hadn't won a single series for 2+ years before Waqar returned.

And yes 3-0 ODI win over a depleted West Indies is no achievement. It's hilarious to see folks who malign an away ODI series win in Sri Lanka suddenly make it seem as if the WI win was some big achievement (Not you in this particularly)

Anyways hope we can draw the match

 

[Rayyman]

Shafiq has batted at 3 in domestics. He played well there in Tests as well. He wants to play there. He has a good technique. He is 31!
He should bat at 3.

Azam hasn't played a whole lot of 1st class cricket. He doesn't have a great technique. He has struggled at 3 so far. Most greats started their careers at 6 or 7.
He is 22!
He should bat at 6

 

[Slog]

The fact is Waqar won in NZ when he took a side only 3 or so months removed from the spot fixing scandal.

Also totally forgot Markhors gem that Waqar has conveniently avoided tough tours to England and Australia. He didn't leave of his own accord.We're entering the realms of conspiracy theories now? Desperate stuff man

 

[MMHS]

What I think is really pathetic is the way we persisted with the likes of Hafeez and Shan for ages in UAE despite everyone knowing they won't do zilch on the overseas tours, and then introducing Babar and Sami to the Test team during the toughest year of Test cricket for Pakistan since Misbah became captain.

A few failures were always on the cards. Dropping either of them now will be a major mistake.

Regarding batting positions, hopefully Younis and Misbah retire ASAP and we can move on. Shafiq should get a promotion but I don't think #3 is his cup of tea.

This is not the first time - Jamshed went to IND & scored 2 hundreds, then to SAF. Both MoHa & Jamshed failed in Test & Jamshed was dropped after 2 Tests for averaging 12.75; MoHa played all 3 Tests to average 7.16 ...

Then, Jamshed was dropped entirely from Test & ODI side - MoHa was given a escape window to avoid SAF again in few months time. After that, he bashed SRL on UAE belters & rest is history.

If Misbah remains Captain - EXACTLY & I REPEAT EXACTLY same thing will happen - either MoHa or Azhar will bat at 3 & other one will open. This is called stability & unity - any given time in PAK's cricket history, this is one of the most close bonded team, but that came at a BIG Cost - a generation. Many of these players would like Misbah to continue till 2020, to safe guard their interest.

 

[Syed1]

If Waqar had been in charge for these tough tours which he's conveniently managed to dodge then his record (which has mainly been padded by UAE successes) would also have taken a hit.

Waqar had been in charge of this Pakistan team for 4 out of the last 6 years so why shouldn't he be held accountable for failing to introduce youngsters to the Test team earlier, failing to give Azhar and Shafiq their rightful promotions in batting order, failing to settle on an opening combination, failing to try alternative bowlers from domestic and showing favouritism to Rahat, Wahab and Irfan, failing to groom a decent seam attack and presiding over our descent into 9th in ODI rankings ?

Who else should I hold accountable - the biriyani chefs ?

Also you haven't answered the question - what would Waqar have done differently in these ANZ tours ? Other than make the players run 15 laps around the ground or deliver one of his world-famous Microsoft Word reports after the series ?

So Waqar should ask the PCB to arrange foreign tours? It's the coaches job to select players, have them properly fed, make sure they are adequately entertained, their kids are doing well in school, mum and missus aren't having a lot of friction?

And you say Waqar was the coach of the test side for 4 out of the last 6 years, which means Waqar is the sole architect of us rising to the number one spot in tests, and now that we have fallen to number four during Mickey's overwatch, Mickey sahab is to be blamed for this sinking in the ranking.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Abdul]

The fact is Waqar won in NZ when he took a side only 3 or so months removed from the spot fixing scandal.

Also totally forgot Markhors gem that Waqar has conveniently avoided tough tours to England and Australia. He didn't leave of his own accord.We're entering the realms of conspiracy theories now? Desperate stuff man

Yes because Mickey is the revolutionary. If Waqar was currently the coach, he would have gotten all of the blame for our losses. Since this is Mickey, the best thing since sliced bread, who cares?

 

[Syed1]

Yes because Mickey is the revolutionary. If Waqar was currently the coach, he would have gotten all of the blame for our losses. Since this is Mickey, the best thing since sliced bread, who cares?

True, poor ol' Mickey having to clean up the mess left by evil, unprofessional Waqar.

 

[Slog]

Yes because Mickey is the revolutionary. If Waqar was currently the coach, he would have gotten all of the blame for our losses. Since this is Mickey, the best thing since sliced bread, who cares?

Its very interesting though

- The England series draw was due to Mickey who had taken a few weeks earlier but Blake for The Debacle Down Under goes to Waqar and not Mickey. First time Im hearing this logic where the effect of a new coach is maximum at the start but as time goes the effect of the previous coach comes to play

- Waqar is to blame for ODI failures and failures under Arthur abroad but no credit will be given to him for the 2 years of domination in UAE. Ofcourse it doesn't matter that we didn't win a single series there for 2+ years before Waqar came and last year struggled against WI who are clearly the weakest side that has ever come to UAE for a test series. But no. Mickey has no part in that decline despite a dozen botched experiments

- An ODI series win in UAE against a depleted WI side consisting of players who didn't want to be even there somehow holds more value than an ODI series win away in SL.

How do these folks reconcile the contradicition must be interesting

 

[Hasan123]

Babar needs a long run in tests. Sending him to domestic cricket won't help as the pitches are awful, there is a chance his technique could regress. Better for him to learn on the international stage. See what happened in Odis he got his 1st century, he got another 2 in 2 games.

I still think he's finding his way in test cricket, it's not a technical issue. It's more adaptating to the pressure of test cricket and concentrate on each ball and for the entire session.

 

[Ellipsism]

Shafiq has batted at 3 in domestics. He played well there in Tests as well. He wants to play there. He has a good technique. He is 31!
He should bat at 3.

Azam hasn't played a whole lot of 1st class cricket. He doesn't have a great technique. He has struggled at 3 so far. Most greats started their careers at 6 or 7.
He is 22!
He should bat at 6

Babar has a good technique, what are you on about?

 

[Rayyman]

Babar has a good technique, what are you on about?

Yeah, but he's not that disciplined.

 

[Abdullah719]

Its very interesting though

- The England series draw was due to Mickey who had taken a few weeks earlier but Blake for The Debacle Down Under goes to Waqar and not Mickey. First time Im hearing this logic where the effect of a new coach is maximum at the start but as time goes the effect of the previous coach comes to play

- Waqar is to blame for ODI failures and failures under Arthur abroad but no credit will be given to him for the 2 years of domination in UAE. Ofcourse it doesn't matter that we didn't win a single series there for 2+ years before Waqar came and last year struggled against WI who are clearly the weakest side that has ever come to UAE for a test series. But no. Mickey has no part in that decline despite a dozen botched experiments

- An ODI series win in UAE against a depleted WI side consisting of players who didn't want to be even there somehow holds more value than an ODI series win away in SL.

How do these folks reconcile the contradicition must be interesting

Just as Misbah is vilified for his lack of future planning, Waqar and the rest of the management can be held accountable too. That doesn't mean that Waqar is the devil, nor does it mean that everything Arthur has done is perfect.

 

[Ellipsism]

Yeah, but he's not that disciplined.

He should move down to 4 or 5 once Misbah retires.

Asad doesn't have the mental capacity to come in second ball.

 

[Abdul]

Its very interesting though

- The England series draw was due to Mickey who had taken a few weeks earlier but Blake for The Debacle Down Under goes to Waqar and not Mickey. First time Im hearing this logic where the effect of a new coach is maximum at the start but as time goes the effect of the previous coach comes to play

- Waqar is to blame for ODI failures and failures under Arthur abroad but no credit will be given to him for the 2 years of domination in UAE. Ofcourse it doesn't matter that we didn't win a single series there for 2+ years before Waqar came and last year struggled against WI who are clearly the weakest side that has ever come to UAE for a test series. But no. Mickey has no part in that decline despite a dozen botched experiments

- An ODI series win in UAE against a depleted WI side consisting of players who didn't want to be even there somehow holds more value than an ODI series win away in SL.

How do these folks reconcile the contradicition must be interesting

Mickey himself gave all of the credit to Waqar for our Test success in England but his fans still fail to acknowledge Waqar somehow and give all of the credit to their hero.

Beating WI in ODIs wasn't a massive achievement by any means either. It was predicted. Since Arthur is the best thing, I'll give him all of the credit if we are able to win only one ODI game against Australia in the upcoming series.

 

[Markhor]

Very poor post

Seems like an angry rant and the bias is clear to see with the name calling which you perhaps think is funny.

If you cannot see that the test side has regressed under Mickey Arthur then it's beyond help. It's also curious to see the dishonesty where the UAE series wins are discredited under Waqar and people act as if we were always winning those when we hadn't won a single series for 2+ years before Waqar returned.

And yes 3-0 ODI win over a depleted West Indies is no achievement. It's hilarious to see folks who malign an away ODI series win in Sri Lanka suddenly make it seem as if the WI win was some big achievement (Not you in this particularly)

Anyways hope we can draw the match

1) Why are we sneering at whitewashing West Indies - you guys are making as if we beat some mohalla team. They are the T20 World Champions and they hammered us in the 2015 World Cup. Not to mention they were ranked above us !

2) How can stating facts be biased ? In Waqar's second tenure, we became the second worst bowling attack in ODIs including Associates. We had one of the worst bowling averages and economy rates in the world - this is incontrovertible fact. Surely Waqar is at least partly responsible for this dire record given his strength is meant to be bowling ?

Why did show favouritism with once in a blue moon, wayward pacers like Rahat and Wahab ? Or mediocre seamers like Imran ? Or persist with a bowler clearly not fit enough for the rigours of international sport in Irfan ? If the excuse is Ajmal and Hafeez got banned - firstly, why we were so dependent on two ageing offies ? Second, with a WC in Australia round the corner - doesnt it speak of Waqar and co's poor planning given Australia's a graveyard for off spin ?

3) If Waqar was in charge his record on these ANZ tours would be no different. These are hard tours for any Pakistan coach. Waqar supporters still refuse to tell me what he'd have done differently. Arthur hasn't had time to pad his stats with loads of UAE series. People are blasting him for poor selections yet forget he hasn't been able to fully assess the domestic talent being on the road non-stop.

4) Arthur is doing in 4 months with the Test side what Waqar failed to do in 2 years - that is planning for the future and investing in promising young batsmen like Aslam and Azam, knowing we have an ageing Test team. Waqar had TWO years to bed young batsmen like Aslam and Azam into the Test team in easier conditions in Asia - knowing 2016 would be a tough touring year but FAILED to do so. Arthur had sound intentions, sometimes gambles don't pay off and the two lads have had poor series. But I'd rather have a coach who fails trying to do the right thing.

All I'm saying is give Arthur time to build the squad, let him navigate through some easier Test series and then assess Arthur's record. After all, Waqar had 4 out of the last 6 years.

 

[Abdullah719]

Let's try to keep the discussion to Babar/Shafiq and the context behind that - going a bit off-topic now. There's another thread for Waqar v Arthur.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Babar will click and once he does he will average above 45. Worth the investment for another 3 series.

 

[Seamer]

Usman Salahuddin should be given a go at 3 for next series. This will be my lineup:

1. Azhar Ali
2. Sami Aslam
3. Usman Salahuddin
4. Younis Khan
5. Babar Azam
6. Asad Shafiq
7. Sarfaraz
8. Yasir Shah
9. Amir
10. Wahab Riaz
11. Mir Hamza

 

[Slog]

1) Why are we sneering at whitewashing West Indies - you guys are making as if we beat some mohalla team. They are the T20 World Champions and they hammered us in the 2015 World Cup. Not to mention they were ranked above us !

2) How can stating facts be biased ? In Waqar's second tenure, we became the second worst bowling attack in ODIs including Associates. We had one of the worst bowling averages and economy rates in the world - this is incontrovertible fact. Surely Waqar is at least partly responsible for this dire record given his strength is meant to be bowling ?

Why did show favouritism with once in a blue moon, wayward pacers like Rahat and Wahab ? Or mediocre seamers like Imran ? Or persist with a bowler clearly not fit enough for the rigours of international sport in Irfan ? If the excuse is Ajmal and Hafeez got banned - firstly, why we were so dependent on two ageing offies ? Second, with a WC in Australia round the corner - doesnt it speak of Waqar and co's poor planning given Australia's a graveyard for off spin ?

3) If Waqar was in charge his record on these ANZ tours would be no different. These are hard tours for any Pakistan coach. Waqar supporters still refuse to tell me what he'd have done differently. Arthur hasn't had time to pad his stats with loads of UAE series. People are blasting him for poor selections yet forget he hasn't been able to fully assess the domestic talent being on the road non-stop.

4) Arthur is doing in 4 months with the Test side what Waqar failed to do in 2 years - that is planning for the future and investing in promising young batsmen like Aslam and Azam, knowing we have an ageing Test team. Waqar had TWO years to bed young batsmen like Aslam and Azam into the Test team in easier conditions in Asia - knowing 2016 would be a tough touring year but FAILED to do so. Arthur had sound intentions, sometimes gambles don't pay off and the two lads have had poor series. But I'd rather have a coach who fails trying to do the right thing.

All I'm saying is give Arthur time to build the squad, let him navigate through some easier Test series and then assess Arthur's record. After all, Waqar had 4 out of the last 6 years.

You are repeating discredited points and wilfully ignoring the whole picture and aspects which don't suit your narrative. Particularly hilarious is totally ignoring the WI test series. And btw the WI which beat us in 2015 WC was a vastly superior side and not the ragtag bunch sent to UAE. Anyways It's interesting to see so much leeway being given to the failing Arthur. Waqar got more criticism despite doing better lol. And hilarious that you bring up all these side issues which maybe affecting Arthur's work but totally even fail to acknowledge that Waqar had clowns and backstabbed like Afridi and Shehzad conspiring against him and that PCB gave him no support despite repeatedly pointing out the negative effect on team atmosphere these guys had. Do you even see you own bias sometimes?

Also just to correct your repeated false narrative.

Waqars first tenure was Feb 2010 to August 2011

His second tenure was Jun 2014 to April 2016

That is barely 3.5 years out of the last 7 years.

In any case in his first tenure Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq were inducted into the side and a lot of hue and cry was made that Akmal Jr. Should have been in their place. I think both of us will agree that the correct decision was made. In his second tenure Sarfaraz, Yasir became a mainstay in the side as well.