omairsiddiqui
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500? 550? You know it's not even a joke when I say that. And keep in mind they don't even have AB Devilliers. Maybe if they did, it'd be close 600.
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How much would South Africa score against this current West Indies team?
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They just faced them in the Windies. Lost to them in a qualifier for the final.
TalhaSyed
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Last time they played was on June 24th - West Indies scored 285 and bowled SA out for 185 winning by 100 runs...
Meanwhile, on a separate note, more recently I'm sure WI score 240 odd against Ind in a T20 match and won the T20 series...
West Indies are also the T20 champions....
This WI team is missing a few big names however they are actually pretty decent. The conditions in UAE aren't ideal for them and Pakistan played brilliant cricket mashallah over all. I'm not sure why so many posters are trying to portray West Indies as the Netherlands...
Meanwhile, on a separate note, more recently I'm sure WI score 240 odd against Ind in a T20 match and won the T20 series...
West Indies are also the T20 champions....
This WI team is missing a few big names however they are actually pretty decent. The conditions in UAE aren't ideal for them and Pakistan played brilliant cricket mashallah over all. I'm not sure why so many posters are trying to portray West Indies as the Netherlands...
theariezman
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at how many occasions WI got smacked over 400 or even Pakistan.
Its Australia, South Africa and India who are usually scoring big against each other despite being big teams.
So stop making yourself pitty on you.
Its Australia, South Africa and India who are usually scoring big against each other despite being big teams.
So stop making yourself pitty on you.
Cricketfan no 1
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400 plus for sure
And pity for the people who are saying that windies will beat them
Everyone knows that even Afghanistan can thrash this side
And pity for the people who are saying that windies will beat them
Everyone knows that even Afghanistan can thrash this side
Cricketfan no 1
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I think you are forgetting all those times when Sa scorec 400 for fun against a strong Wi umlike the minnow team plsying tight now
Syed1
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People putting down this Windies side just because Pakistan beat them 
PP'ers were also putting down T20 WC finalist English side when Pakistan completely annihilated them. So whichever team Pakistan beats its because they are bad? It can never be that we played good?
PP'ers were also putting down T20 WC finalist English side when Pakistan completely annihilated them. So whichever team Pakistan beats its because they are bad? It can never be that we played good?
Zohaib Shah
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All three matches were a borefest. These wins were more due to Windies lacking interest than us performing at our very best.
theariezman
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I am not forgetting.
Read me again, The list of scoring 350+ would be higher between SA/Aus or Aus/Ind than SA/WI.
370 at least, I can bet they will go over 444 easily thats how demoralized this Windies unit is and our darling players were busy playing dot balls, wasting deliveries or trying to make century by taking singles instead of playing shots. Today our batting in last 10 overs proved we are #7 or #6 at best with a huge gap between us and the top 5.
The players could'nt even achieve a run rate of 6 in last 10 cos they were playing for century.
The players could'nt even achieve a run rate of 6 in last 10 cos they were playing for century.
It depends on the venue actually.
I was going through the fantasy figures, which actually exposes the understanding of cricket by many here. This is not 60 metre bone flat SAF ODI track - these are typical UAE wickets & even the Sharjah boundary is larger than the Durban ground. Besides, every SAF ground in middle of the country is at least 1000 metres high from sea level (Jo'burg is almost 2000 Mt), which helps the ball go balastic easily.
Posters are underestimating the quality of batting by Babar, Malik & Sarfu here. On those tracks, against 30 overs from Narine, Benn & Barthwaire/Samuels is not easy to slog. If a full strength SAF team plays exactly this WI team in same venues, I doubt they'll ever cross 325. 300 may be at the stress of imagination. In fact, if AB doesn't get a series like Babar, I don't think SAF will match PAK's lowest (290 in 50 overs) in any of the game. This game is a bit more complex than it looks in cricinfo.
I was going through the fantasy figures, which actually exposes the understanding of cricket by many here. This is not 60 metre bone flat SAF ODI track - these are typical UAE wickets & even the Sharjah boundary is larger than the Durban ground. Besides, every SAF ground in middle of the country is at least 1000 metres high from sea level (Jo'burg is almost 2000 Mt), which helps the ball go balastic easily.
Posters are underestimating the quality of batting by Babar, Malik & Sarfu here. On those tracks, against 30 overs from Narine, Benn & Barthwaire/Samuels is not easy to slog. If a full strength SAF team plays exactly this WI team in same venues, I doubt they'll ever cross 325. 300 may be at the stress of imagination. In fact, if AB doesn't get a series like Babar, I don't think SAF will match PAK's lowest (290 in 50 overs) in any of the game. This game is a bit more complex than it looks in cricinfo.
TalhaSyed
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Here are the teams the last time WI & SA played just over 3 months ago
Here are the SA & WI teams today that played against Aus & WI respectively
Lets look at the differences - 1st WI:
Now SA:
Now looking at that - the WI team only had 3 changes, so 8 players (70% of the team) stayed the same. In my opinion it's hard to say which WI team was stronger - the one that played against Pak or the one that played against SA.
SA had 5 changes, 6 players (55% of the team) stayed the same. Again, it's hard to say which team is stronger. AB de played against WI but not against Aus, meanwhile Steyn played against Aus but not against WI. Meanwhile, Miller, who's usually been sub standard at international level, was brilliant today and similarly so was Phehlukwayo. Preotious on the other hand didn't really do anything of note today, so again it's hard to say which SA side was better.
The whole point of going through all this was to show that people saying "THIS WI side is a minnow side", even though a WI side that looked very similar to today actually beat a SA side that looked very similar today the last time both teams met. People are sitting here judging WI based on their performance on the UAE - which are probably the worst conditions for a team like WI - as they play against Pakistan, whilst judging SA whilst they play at home in Durban against Australia.
The whole thing just seems absolutely bonkers to me.
Anyway - I'll bite. Let's go back to the question at hand - if you wanna be really hypothetical and pull things out of thin air - lets look at analysing this.
The question was "How much would South Africa score against this current WI team?"
Well - last time the two teams played SA scored 185. The only difference between today's bowling line up for WI, and the bowling line up that played for WI in the game VS SA is that C Brathwaite played against SA instead of A Joseph.
C Brathwaite has a career economy of 5.61 and in that particular match he went at an economy of 3.90 - thats 70% of his career economy.
A Joseph has a career economy of 6.88 after a grand total of 2 ODI's, so assuming he goes at 70% on that - in this particular hypothetical match against SA which is being discussed here - he would have an economy of 4.78.
That means over a period of 10 overs Joseph would concede 48 runs whilst Brathwaite actually conceded 39 - an extra 11 runs.
So the bottom line is:
The last time SA & WI played, SA scored 185. The only difference in the bowling line up that played against SA on that day compared to the bowling like up that played for WI against Pak today is that A Joseph replaced C Brathwaite for the game against Pakistan. With this in mind, if you look at the performance of C Brathwaite in that particular match, and the career stats for both bowlers, if South Africa was to play THIS West Indian team they would score a grand total of 196.
Do you see how ridiculous that all sounds?
Here are the SA & WI teams today that played against Aus & WI respectively
Lets look at the differences - 1st WI:
Now SA:
Now looking at that - the WI team only had 3 changes, so 8 players (70% of the team) stayed the same. In my opinion it's hard to say which WI team was stronger - the one that played against Pak or the one that played against SA.
SA had 5 changes, 6 players (55% of the team) stayed the same. Again, it's hard to say which team is stronger. AB de played against WI but not against Aus, meanwhile Steyn played against Aus but not against WI. Meanwhile, Miller, who's usually been sub standard at international level, was brilliant today and similarly so was Phehlukwayo. Preotious on the other hand didn't really do anything of note today, so again it's hard to say which SA side was better.
The whole point of going through all this was to show that people saying "THIS WI side is a minnow side", even though a WI side that looked very similar to today actually beat a SA side that looked very similar today the last time both teams met. People are sitting here judging WI based on their performance on the UAE - which are probably the worst conditions for a team like WI - as they play against Pakistan, whilst judging SA whilst they play at home in Durban against Australia.
The whole thing just seems absolutely bonkers to me.
Anyway - I'll bite. Let's go back to the question at hand - if you wanna be really hypothetical and pull things out of thin air - lets look at analysing this.
The question was "How much would South Africa score against this current WI team?"
Well - last time the two teams played SA scored 185. The only difference between today's bowling line up for WI, and the bowling line up that played for WI in the game VS SA is that C Brathwaite played against SA instead of A Joseph.
C Brathwaite has a career economy of 5.61 and in that particular match he went at an economy of 3.90 - thats 70% of his career economy.
A Joseph has a career economy of 6.88 after a grand total of 2 ODI's, so assuming he goes at 70% on that - in this particular hypothetical match against SA which is being discussed here - he would have an economy of 4.78.
That means over a period of 10 overs Joseph would concede 48 runs whilst Brathwaite actually conceded 39 - an extra 11 runs.
So the bottom line is:
The last time SA & WI played, SA scored 185. The only difference in the bowling line up that played against SA on that day compared to the bowling like up that played for WI against Pak today is that A Joseph replaced C Brathwaite for the game against Pakistan. With this in mind, if you look at the performance of C Brathwaite in that particular match, and the career stats for both bowlers, if South Africa was to play THIS West Indian team they would score a grand total of 196.
Do you see how ridiculous that all sounds?
Brilliant. Statistically things may seem different than they actually are, the boundaries in uae are huge by international standards.
I don't even think babar was slow. That's the general Idea that your numerous 3 and with a 100sr and others play around him. I don't see this criticism aimed at him unjustified.
shaz619
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Certain folk have advocated WI's being incredibly weaker then associate nations due to their agendas to the point where PPers have begun to accept it. They are missing some big names but they're not god awful, Narine is actually the no.1 ODI bowler in the world, Holder is in the top 20, DJ Bravo is a world class utility talent, Samuels/Bravo/Ramdin/Pollard can bat and so can remember the name!
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I don't even think babar was slow. That's the general idea that your number 3 bats with a Sr of 100 and others play around him. I see the criticism aimed at him as unjustified
TalhaSyed
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Absolutely man!!
It's cool man in post #12 I did a detail analysis of how many runs SA would score against THIS WI side and the answer isn't great
Pantani
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West Indies bowling attack >>> Australia D bowling attack. No way would South Africa chase 370 against an international standard attack.
Buffet
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Venue ?? Without this factor , we are not going to come up with any meaningful answer here.
Bilal7
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300 is a pretty safe bet, unless they're batting second on a turning track. Apart from Amla and de Villiers, the rest of them are not much more than decent against the turning ball.
street cricketer
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Lmao it's quite funny seeing all this sudden validation of the strengths of this windies side by all the posters here when the same side was dismissed as worse than a minnow when India swept them in the test series in their home not too many days ago.
ethan hunt
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Lmao it's quite funny seeing all this sudden validation of the strengths of this windies side by all the posters here when the same side was dismissed as worse than a minnow when India swept them in the test series in their home not too many days ago.
I think a lot of people expected that in test matches even though they showed good signs .
They won the limited overs though and thats where their supposed strength is.
ethan hunt
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Miller has been pretty much a failure in international cricket uptil now .
Same guy couldnt lay bat to ball vs junaid khan in the final over when they needed 9 .
Have a look at that aussie attack that played .
Westindies are weak but how many teams have managed to whitewash them across formats ??
Infact it was their first t20 series loss in two years . They beat southafrica in southafrica.
Same guy couldnt lay bat to ball vs junaid khan in the final over when they needed 9 .
Have a look at that aussie attack that played .
Westindies are weak but how many teams have managed to whitewash them across formats ??
Infact it was their first t20 series loss in two years . They beat southafrica in southafrica.
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street cricketer
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Obviously it was commendable of Pakistan to win the T20 series against the world champions especially after the horror show in the WT20.
I was talking about the ODIs, which is what the thread is about.
Haroon786
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Because right now WI are giving us less fight than the Netherlands would.
Haroon786
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Lmao it's quite funny seeing all this sudden validation of the strengths of this windies side by all the posters here when the same side was dismissed as worse than a minnow when India swept them in the test series in their home not too many days ago.
Lol, what can you do ?
PPers change opinions faster than the wind, will be interesting to see what they say after the Test win when they derided India for beating a minnow WI, will probably call them a reincarnation of the 1980s team who were always at the summit and not the foundation of the Test rankings.
soso_killer
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Absolutely man!!
It's cool man in post #12 I did a detail analysis of how many runs SA would score against THIS WI side and the answer isn't great
yep, the last time SA played India in an ODI they registered 434.
WI are way superior to India. No?
soso_killer
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SA recently chased 320 against England with relative ease. Would have chased 400 that day, that's how dominant they are.
soso_killer
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Lmao it's quite funny seeing all this sudden validation of the strengths of this windies side by all the posters here when the same side was dismissed as worse than a minnow when India swept them in the test series in their home not too many days ago.
LOL, it's like the series draw in England which sent Pakistan fans into overdrive believing they could win a Test series in SA with an ageing side.
Haroon786
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Not sure why you're so confident atm.
I seem to recall SA getting hammered in Tests the last 2 series they played a good team.
soso_killer
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which series?
The one where we were missing two of our best bowlers, with an unsettled batting unit?
Or the one we played on rubbish tracks where the series averages made ugly reading? And our spinners looked like the second coming of Jesus?
Anyway I believe this SA side is better in ODI's than in Tests.
ODI's 1) Australia 2) SA 3) NZ
Test 1) Australia 2) England 3) SA 4) Pak
(TEST) I feel the top 3 sides are capable of winning away. Instead of accumulating ratings by avoiding certain teams and thrashing everyone on poor home pitches.
Mamoon
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Not that I agree with the OP's assessment, but it is clear that some nerves have been touched in this thread, or by this thread.
It is true that SA would not have scored 370 against the WI in the UAE, but that does not excuse the fact that we do not have a power hitter like Miller down the order which we badly need to compete the top class sides in ODIs.
Just a few weeks ago this team lost 4-1 in England due to its lack of firepower and it will lose with a similar scoreline if it plays there again, or against SA on the pitches that they are playing vs Australia. Hence, all this talk of 'improvement' in the ODI side needs to be taken with a pinch or a barrel of salt.
On the same UAE pitches, Buttler dismantled Pakistan and took them to from 220 to 350 in the last 10 overs with a 46 ball century.
We lack that firepower; no need of hiding behind excuses. No other team would have finished with 308 only after racing to 180/1 in 30 overs.
Stop writing essays and address the point, which admittedly was not articulately addressed by the OP.
It is true that SA would not have scored 370 against the WI in the UAE, but that does not excuse the fact that we do not have a power hitter like Miller down the order which we badly need to compete the top class sides in ODIs.
Just a few weeks ago this team lost 4-1 in England due to its lack of firepower and it will lose with a similar scoreline if it plays there again, or against SA on the pitches that they are playing vs Australia. Hence, all this talk of 'improvement' in the ODI side needs to be taken with a pinch or a barrel of salt.
On the same UAE pitches, Buttler dismantled Pakistan and took them to from 220 to 350 in the last 10 overs with a 46 ball century.
We lack that firepower; no need of hiding behind excuses. No other team would have finished with 308 only after racing to 180/1 in 30 overs.
Stop writing essays and address the point, which admittedly was not articulately addressed by the OP.
Haroon786
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I don't really care about excuses, but yes the series where you went 1-5 is the ones that I am talking about.
Australia and SA are not better than Pakistan in Tests, you can make a case for Australia but SA had a shocking 2015 in Tests and have only played 2 matches in the last 6 months so they don't belong in the top 5 teams atm.
Haroon786
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True, just a shame that they go missing when it really matters.
The King of Kings
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Convict
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Not sure. They did chase down 370 but it was against bog ordinary bowlers on a wicket where even someone the class of Steyn went for 90 odd
TalhaSyed
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TalhaSyed
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Haroon786
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Ok....like to explain how you reached that conclusion?
Were you not watching the matches ?
There is even one thread on Pollard not trying his best.
Take a look at the scorecard of the match :
http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-west-indies-2016-17/engine/match/1050227.html
Apart from Holder, who is incidentally the captain of the team, not a single specialist batsman or AR or bits and pieces player scored at a SR of quicker than 77. They weren't chasing 230 where this SR would be permissible, rather they were chasing 309 and they decided to close shop before their innings started. To me this is obvious as day light that they didn't try to win the match and instead just went on doing nothing.
TalhaSyed
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Yes - they struggled, the lacked intent and their players really struggled on the UAE pitches.
That's all fine and good & pretty obvious.
But on what basis can you say that Netherlands would give us a better competition or put up more of a fight?
Haroon786
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WI didn't bother in trying to win the match, the Netherlands would try to win the match - you may not see that as much of an issue and brush it aside, but it is obvious when a team is giving 100% effort or not.
People should remember this is not the same WI team that won the T20 WC. Infact it is a very young team having serious politics ongoing at board level.
They are missing key players like Andre Russel, Lendl Simmons, Dwayne Smith, Darren Sammy. There is no bigger impact player than Andre Russel who is well renowned T20 star and has won most of the T20 titles courtesy his power hitting.
Pak still havent solved the issue of finishing games as there is no genuine hitter in the lower order and we will get exposed in Australia if we dont find a fix soon.
They are missing key players like Andre Russel, Lendl Simmons, Dwayne Smith, Darren Sammy. There is no bigger impact player than Andre Russel who is well renowned T20 star and has won most of the T20 titles courtesy his power hitting.
Pak still havent solved the issue of finishing games as there is no genuine hitter in the lower order and we will get exposed in Australia if we dont find a fix soon.
TalhaSyed
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...ok.....
Yes the only reason WI did not win this series was because they did not try to win. They did not score rapidly because they chose not to - not because they were struggling with the pitch or tight bowling. They lacked intent when it came to playing aggressively because they didn't wanna play aggressively - not because they lost wickets every time they tried to attack the Pakistan bowlers.
The fact that WI lost all those wickets when they tried to attack the Pakistani bowling had nothing to do with why they were trying to accumulate runs. The reason they were trying to accumulate runs rather than hitting boundaries was because they were not trying to win the match....
C'mon man this is international fricking cricket!
Give credit to our bowlers who did not give some of the biggest strikers in the game a chance to dispatch them to the boundary! They forced them to change their game and try a different approach, which the WI batting line up simply couldn't do.
17 out of 51 West Indian wickets were lost in the T20 and ODI series when they were trying to play attacking cricket. Either trying hit the ball out the park, or coming up with shots like pulls and reverse sweeps.
18 out of 51 West Indian wickets were lost due their batsmen being bowled & were unble to get their bat behind the ball. Or were they bowled simply because the West Indian batsmen were not trying to hit the ball?
Sure the West Indian team struggled big time - but give our bowlers some credit! Don't make it sound like WI did not demolish our bowling line up because they did not want to or chose not to try to. Also, don't come up with such cliche over the top baseless statements like Netherlands would have done better than WI.
Our bowling was great MashAllah, and so was our ground fielding and that put immense pressure on the WI batsman.
They lost 70% of their wickets because they simply were not good enough to dispatch our bowlers out the park. We are talking about the T20 champions here. Some of the best strikers in the game.
On top of that they lost almost 15% of their wickets through run outs due to the pressure our fielders put on them and on top of that the scoreboard pressure thanks to our batsmen.
That's a total of 85% of wickets which West Indies lost because they were either:
1) Not good enough to hit our bowlers for 6
2) Not good enough to prevent our bowlers from hitting the stumps
3) Cracking under pressure and getting run out in a desperate attempt to get runs
Going back to my very original point in this thread. West Indies are by no means the strongest team in the world & these conditions are really tough for them, however, what makes you say that they were not trying to beat Pakistan in this series, however, 2 months ago they were trying to beat SA and Ind?
C'mon man give me a break.
Haroon786
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Didn't think you would have comprehension issues, anyway. How is saying that WI didn't give much fight equivalent to saying that they would've won if they had given 100% - instead of thinking you're right, read the post before replying.
We're talking about intent here and that goes for the entirety of the innings, not just the deliveries upon dismissal. I'm not sure how much of ODI cricket you watch, but strike rotation and putting the bad balls away are the core elements of 50 over batting. Slogging is sometimes effective but it isn't key to getting more 250 runs in 50 overs.
Like most Pakistanis, you're thinking of aggressive as hitting boundaries and trying to slog at every opportunity - that's not being aggressive, that is reckless. Aggressive batsmen minimise dot balls, put the bad ball away and pressurise the bowlers into bowling into their favourite areas.
Accumulators tend to have a SR of between 80-90, yet the majority of the WI batsmen were going at less 75 SR which when you're chasing 300 is suicidal.
It seems like that you are confused with my post and point. This is not about denying credit to Pakistan it is about whether or not WI gave much of an effort, even if WI went into it with 100% effort, Pakistan would have still won comfortably because WI base level is lower than Pakistan's. You know how ODI batting works, it isn't needed to slog to get 5-6 runs an over, all you need are a few singles and a boundary after a few overs to maintain a good rate - if WI were using such a mindset then instead of being 170 AO after 44 overs they should have been 170 A0 27 overs.
This is a thread about Pollard not trying when WI needed over 10 RPO in the second ODI:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?250935-Kieron-Pollard-s-innings
The fact that Phil Simmons the head coach of WI was sacked just days before the series disillusioned the players and demotivated them is a substantial reason as to why they weren't trying. The lack of effort could be a silent protest to the WICB who culled Simmons, amongst the WI players, only Bravo is the one to speak out :
http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/...hil-simmons-hurting-west-indies-deeply-532008
"We went on, we won the [T20] World Cup ... [we played well] in the Tri-Nations against two very powerful ODI teams and yet still, moments before the team flies to Dubai, they fired the coach so it will definitely affect the morale of the team and the players."
Make no mistake, Pakistan would destroy WI by at least 50 + runs in each ODI even if they played with full effort, however to brush whatever I'm saying off as 'baseless' is false and unwarranted since what you interpreted is a completely wrong assumption about my post.
That is my educated guess at why they weren't trying their best in the matches (talking mainly ODIs here). What I'm sure of though is that if a player is not playing according to the match situation than he's either Afridi or that they are not trying to win.
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soso_killer
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No one here in SA takes the Indian defeat seriously.
Just as we don't take our spinners seriously.
The England defeat did sting, but context and perspective is important.
A full strength SA side is behind only Aus and Eng when all conditions are taken into account.
I would have gone for second, due to being superior in Asia than Australia. But Australia are capable of beating us home and away, full strength or not.
We wouldn't win in the UAE and India (good pitches), but can be competitive.
I do see us sneaking a draw in Australia, a win in England , Lanka and NZ at full strength. Whereas India would get blown away. Even chickened out of touring the UAE. It would be pointless if they tour with Misbah and IK having retired.
Why are Australia not stronger than Pakistan?
soso_killer
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So now the narrative is changing?
It "matters" when they beat us, but the games we do manage to win don't?
I'm confused here.
TalhaSyed
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After saying "WI didn't give much of a fight" you went on to say "WI didn't bother in trying to win the match". That second statement clearly says that they didn't bother to give 100%.
Me saying they "they would have won if they did give 100%" was just me being sarcastic - just like everything else in the opening paragraph of my previous post. However, that's my bad for assuming that sarcasm is obvious on an online forum. Maybe if you were able to comprehend that better this wouldn't be an issue, however, you were too busy being condescending (refer to part in bold) to worry about that.
Kher - moving on....
Ok - just stating the obvious here whilst trying to be condescending again (refer to part in bold).
Sure - again - just stating the obvious here whilst trying to be condescending (refer to part in bold) and giving yourself a wee ego boost by making it sound like you are wiser than "most Pakistanis".
Successful accumulators do have a SR of 80-90. WI weren't successful - which is obvious from the results - so have the lower SR's
Sure - yes that is how ODI batting works. However, just to clarify, are you saying that West Indies deliberately under performed? (refer to part in bold)
If so - that is a pretty massive claim to make.
Or is it possible, that they were trying to bat the way you have described, and the way every Tom, Dick & Harry knows ODI batting works, however, were unable to do so due to the tough pitch conditions, tight bowling & good ground fielding by Pak?
Yup ok - thats the thread. Seen that a few time.
WI and Pollard left themselves way too much to do in the end, but by the time WI came to attack they had lost too many wickets and were not able to accumulate enough runs successfully to get themselves an achievable target in the end overs.
Your point is?
Sure that would impact the moral in the team. However, once again to clarify, you are saying WI are deliberately under performing & not giving it their all as a sign of protest? (refer to part in bold)
Again - if true - thats a pretty massive claim to make.
It seems to me man - even in this second post of yours - you are suggesting that WI deliberately under performed and didn't play to their full potential on purpose - possibly as a sign of protest against the sacking of the coach.
If this is true I stick by my initial statement that this is a pretty huge and baseless statement to make. Blaming professional athlete(s) of deliberately under performing is no joke and shouldn't be taken lightly.
If you were to say that WI players were physiologically shot due to what's been happening of the field and as a result were unable to perform on the filed - that's still understandable. However, to say the WI players refused to put in the effort on the field due to what's happening off the field - that's a whole different story & a massive claim to make without any substantial evidence.
Once again you are making that claim again. (refer to part in bold)
Either way, personally, I think there is a 3rd possible option.
They are not playing according to the match situation because the quality of the pitch and the opposition is not allowing them to do so.
Haroon786
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[MENTION=3474]TalhaSyed[/MENTION], it might sound condescending to you but I'm honestly surprised that you think WI were trying to chase 300, a RR of 4 for over 40 overs when you need 6 an over and not an attempt to go for it ? Would have been more respectful if they were 100% serious rather than 70% as the scorecard would have had some more respectability. If you think it's just me that thinks WI weren't going full on to get the target than make a thread on it and we'll get a poll and see what other PPers think.
You seem to think I'm accusing them in a similar manner to match fixing, that is not true but what they are doing is akin to a Test match where both teams know that the draw is the only possible outcome and the batting team just bat aimlessly until the final hour. WI have batted like that with no aim, just mindless plodding around - to me that doesn't cut the mustard. In the 2015 WC SF between India and Australia, after India lost their top order, they lost all hope of winning the match and didn't really go for the win thereafter - the margin of defeat was smaller but their intent throughout wasn't for victory. That's not what you are trying to make me imply but what I actually want to imply.
You seem to think I'm accusing them in a similar manner to match fixing, that is not true but what they are doing is akin to a Test match where both teams know that the draw is the only possible outcome and the batting team just bat aimlessly until the final hour. WI have batted like that with no aim, just mindless plodding around - to me that doesn't cut the mustard. In the 2015 WC SF between India and Australia, after India lost their top order, they lost all hope of winning the match and didn't really go for the win thereafter - the margin of defeat was smaller but their intent throughout wasn't for victory. That's not what you are trying to make me imply but what I actually want to imply.
Haroon786
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How are SA the second best team in the world right now ? The batting is reliant on Amla and AB and when they fail, the rest tend to collapse with them. The bowling is good at home when Steyn is around, but when he's injured there's nothing really to shout home about - Rabada takes wickets but gets tonked around a bit, Philander is good for SA and NZ only and Morkel has never been more than a third seamer. Sorry but I don't SA winning in England or even in SL where I'd think you'd get a draw and that's only if both Amla and AB are in form otherwise the rest of the batsmen are similar to the Aussies vs spin and would get trampled by Herath and Perera.
Australia I said are debatable depending on the poster's bias, for me Aus are a bit better at home and Pakistan are a lot better away, overall Pak being better.
Haroon786
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ICC tourneys.
Actually, a key element is missing here - question is how much SAF can put, not what will be the winning margin.
SAF scored 372 against AUS, where Dale Styen went for 96 in 10 overs - here Josheph is conceding just about half. Mathematically, either PAK is half the team or Josheph is twice the bowler, or there must be a 3rd factor - match condition.
Here WI team is struggling for their batting, but their bowling is not that bad actually. Particularly, if I consider the wicket, slow out field & size of the boundary, WI attack is quite decent for UAE - much better than the bowling attack AUS put at Durban (Or Centurion : conceding 290/4 in 36 overs under light is minnow level, at any context).
I think, batting first SAF might beat WI for 150+ margin, but they won't score much more than 290, may be 300. Once the ball gets soft, it's not easy to blast on UAE wickets.
Buffet
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Lmao it's quite funny seeing all this sudden validation of the strengths of this windies side by all the posters here when the same side was dismissed as worse than a minnow when India swept them in the test series in their home not too many days ago.
LOL, funny comments. To be fair, not all fans are like that. Anyway, it's good to see Pak scoring some runs even if it was against WI team. That's how they will be confident and score against others as well. Otherwise Pakistan was playing too predictable to even bother watching them play in ODI format.
TalhaSyed
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Ok sure Haroon bro - you aren't accusing them of match fixing or 'deliberately under performing' - but in my mind the idea of an International cricket team going out there and not trying/wanting to win a cricket match just sounds absurd.
In my opinion - I think you are right in the sense that WI did lose hope quite early on when chasing. I think WI use to go out there thinking "this isn't the kind of pitch where it's easy to smash boundaries from the get go like we normally do - so lets try and get to 35 overs with about 180-200 on the board with only a couple wickets down - and then the likes of Pollard, Samuels and Brathwaite can smash it in the back end of the innings". However, I think every time they tried to do that, they fell behind the 8 ball very early on due to Pakistan applying pressure and not allowing them to score easily and picking up wickets regularly.
In your last post - and to some extent this post - you talked a lot about how to build an ODI innings & go about chasing scores of 300+. Pick up singles, and doubles whilst putting away the poor deliveries for the first 30-35 overs whilst keeping wickets in hand & attacking at the back end of the innings. Everybody knows that. That is no rocket science. It's the absolute basics. However, that is a lot easier said than done, otherwise everyone would be doing it. If the pitch doesn't suit you and the opposition are playing well it's not easy to keep the strike rotating without losing wickets and/or trying to hit the ball to the fence. I think that is the situation that we found ourselves in. Given the conditions, Pakistan MashAllah simply outclassed WI.
Now that is just my opinion and I think that is quite different from saying WI was not trying to win out there.
soso_killer
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So when SA was dismissed for 184 by the Windies, was that an ICC tourney?
It was mentioned often enough without you disputing it. When SA fails it's a point of reference when they win "meh" it's not an ICC tourney? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I don't get this angle.
msb314
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Whilst we are certainly not capable of chasing 350+, anything less than 320 is certainly within our range.
We have many run a ball type players like Malik, Sarfraz and Babar but (as you pointed out) we do not have power hitters in the lower order.
soso_killer
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AB hasn't done anything for over a year. Was missing in the entire England series, and didn't play against NZ. I'm not sure if you've been following SA over the past year though cricinfo results or have watched and analyzed where they've improved.
We had no decent opening partnership since Smith retired, Cook has changed that. He's no world beater but is decent and better suited to opening than Van Zyl. We've also made QdK as a permanent part of the Test squad.
Of course AB has a role to play as a senior figure, it's only natural that from time to time he'll be needed to step up, especially in foreign conditions. We are in a much better position than Pakistan in the long"ish" term. Lets apply your "take out" logic. Let's 'take out" Misbah and YK from Pakistan, where does that live Pakistan? Let's fast forward by a year or two, where is Misbah and YK? Are they still part of the Test squad?
AB and Amla are significantly younger, and are stalwarts for SA and are still needed, not denying that, they should be around for at least 4 years (with luck regarding injury).
But this current SA side is much stronger than the side England played, especially the first 3 Tests.
As for Steyn, well we've relied on him since 2007. He's led that attack on his own until the emergence of a limited Philander. Rabada is still young and raw, and probably needs Steyn and Vern around him for the next two years. But he has shown he can lead an attack. I dare say at this stage he is way ahead of Morkel.
So yeah, bowling wise without Steyn SA are more vulnerable than missing AB in the batting department. But a fully fit side will compete hard anywhere.
History suggests we're good players of spin, so i don't buy the comparison between us and Australia in Asia. We just won in Lanka with no Cook, Rabada and QdK who have added value to the Test squad.
SA haven't been stagnant since the two series defeats (with no Steyn and Vern which conveniently doesn't get mentioned), far from it.
Ab Fan
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Let's not mention Vern as someone who is a world beater.
He is a good bowler but not world class.
Aussies are dominant at home. SA will find things hard there for sure.
He is a good bowler but not world class.
Aussies are dominant at home. SA will find things hard there for sure.
Ab Fan
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India defeated SL in SL not long ago. It seems you forgot that. BCCI didn't made those pitches.
Pitches were poor only in India-SA series. The pitches are very good in the ongoing home series vs NZ.
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Read post#1 and make sure you stay on topic
Ab Fan
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On topic, SA would score 400 on a completely flat pitch vs WI bowling attack simply because they have power hitters down the order ( particularly AB & Miller) who can convert a 260-2 ( 40) to 400-4 in a 50 over match.
soso_killer
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Where was it eluded that Philander was a world beater?
soso_killer
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of course India beat a declining Lanka team, I mentioned that clearly. Just like they'll tour the UAE in the near future.
Talk about stating the obvious. South Africa and NZ aren't in the same class when it comes to tackling spin. Remember SA went 9 years without a series defeat, humiliated India in the LOI edition of that tour.
There was no way the BCCI were going to allow SA to leave India quietly. Historically SA have bullied India, not even the great Aussie side could do that. I wasn't surprised to see such disgraceful pitches even though SA have been kind to India in SA. A rookie Indian team played on flat tracks, with the likes of Pujara etc scoring hundreds. That illustrate how soft CSA have been, I'm eager for India's next tour to SA.
Haroon786
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Do this in an ICC tournament and there will be no naysayers.
Haroon786
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Just won in SL ? That win was 2 years ago and Steyn was playing then IIRC.
I have been following SA and they've only played like 3 Tests since the start of the year, so AB not performing is a harsh assessment considering he missed the Tests vs NZ (his fault I know) and has only played like 1-2 Tests in 2016. The fact is that other Amla and AB there aren't many batsmen who can perform everywhere and SA haven't found others like them.
I'm not talking about the last 25 years of SA cricket, I'm talking about the last year or so. The lack of performance is reflected in the rankings and batsmen other than AB and Amla don't have any body of work to suggest they're good players of spin.
As for Pakistan, yeah they would struggle a little in Tests but we have other dependable batsmen who are all experienced and have years left in the game. Besides we're going to blood in a new batsman in this WI series and it's likely to be Babar Azam a good player who can potentially become great. Watch out on PP later today as the squad will be announced.
soso_killer
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yeah we "just won" in Lanka. We still have the same side and components that won a series there and are slightly stronger with the addition of Rabada and now that de Kock is assured a place and will be given an extended run in the side. Whereas Lanka have lost Sanga and Mahela.
Steyn "was playing" then? I wasn't aware he's retired.
As you've pointed out, SA haven't played much cricket over the last year. Our players played on minefields in India which would explain why they're not high up the rankings, I'm not sure of the impact of the washout in Bangladesh. Expecting the contrary would be contradicting your point.
Who are these"dependable" batsmen for Pakistan?
How have they done away from the UAE?
Just curious, are you one of the people expecting Pakistan to beat SA in SA?
soso_killer
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it's not about the naysayers.
When SA win a series, it's a meaningless Bilateral, should they lose it gets quoted for years. Are these bilaterals important or not?
Haroon786
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Let's be brutally honest, SA's batsmen are AB, Amla and Faf, the rest vs good attacks in home conditions are nobodies who haven't done anything - it's not like the rest are Smith, Kallis calibre batsmen, they're average batsmen until they achieve anything.
Rabada is good but he's inconsistent - good batsmen will make him pay just like Stokes did in the SA tour. Kock is renowned for his all round boundary hitting not his technique, don't expect him to translate his success in ODIs to Tests instantaneously. These days Steyn misses a lot of Tests so it is surprising that he played then.
You were no 1 heading into India and you expect the no 1 team to do well everywhere - you were trounced, yes the pitches were spinner friendly, but you don't see teams complaining about seamer friendly pitches in SA and the amount if sub 100 scores there have been there in recent years.
You may not have heard of them but they are Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq and Sarfraz Ahmed. The former two averaged 40 in England and Sarfraz is a counter-attacking batsman taking the attack towards the opposition - he was pivotal in winning in SL last year and also had crucial partnerships with the tail in England this year.
Without Steyn, Pakistan would win in SA with this team IMO.
Haroon786
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It is about naysayers - SA have a brilliant win % in ODIs yet are poor in ICC tourneys, until they win one, no one will consider them great in LOIs.
For years ? They keep updating the sample size every other year, not sure why people would have to use 1999 when they can use 2015 or 2011 or 2012 or ...
Should've got my point by now.
soso_killer
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i still don't get your point. And what about 2015?
Arham_PakFan
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They wouldn't choke at any stage batting second,but they could set a target of 500.No worries though,Bangladesh can chase that down.
Exactly that's what India did in their last tours to those countries listed. Drew 2 tests against Australia, a win and a draw in England and a draw each in NZ and SA and series win in Lanka.
soso_killer
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and Cook, Elgar, Bavuma and QdK are nothing in SA conditions? QdK just destroyed Boult and co. on a lovely deck, scored a ton against England IIRC (dead rubber or not)
The players you mentioned would get owned by Vernon in these conditions. He's done it before, and that's not "hypothetical". Rabada made the English jump around with no support cast, mind you the English have always done well in SA. Alongside Vernon, even excluding Steyn Pakistan would have a tough time. Only two teams are capable of winning in SA and it's Australia and England. Pakistan are not good enough., I'm sorry if the series DRAW in England got in your heads. Even Lanka have won there, they didn't dare to think they could win in SA.
How have the players you've mentioned done in SA previously?
Regarding seamer friendly conditions, if you comparing pitches where hundreds were scored on both matches, to the ones SA played in India then you're misguided. Visit the matches again and get back to me.
soso_killer
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super hitter
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the 444 record is going to break1 mark my words!
the were hitting it humungoussssssssssssssssssss against Australia.
street cricketer
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I'm sorry but you have been propagating some ridiculous theories since yesterday.
I'll answer your claims one by one.
There is the small matter of a bitter political rivalry between India and Pakistan. Pakistan withdrew from the Asia cup in the 90s citing strained relations with India and both countries never toured each other for a considerable period but played in neutral locations. There was a huge arms race between the two nations in the 90s when both were testing out their nukes. There was also one tiny war fought in late 90s, so you can understand the political scenario then. India and Pakistan matches have always been interrupted due to political reasons for extended periods like in the 60s and 70s when there was no match between the two for 2 "decades".
Just like the people here won't understand the quota situation in South Africa, I don't expect you to understand the complexity of the relations between the two countries.
India did agree to play a test series a year back but the BCCI were greedy to get all the revenues and hence wanted to play at home which Pakistan refused and so that was shelved.
India played the 3rd highest number of matches with SL during that decade and had the best win loss ratio against SL among all teams. It is true that SL were a strong team then especially at home. But tell me, do you honestly believe that SL would've competed better than the great Aussies or the very good Saffers of 2000s when Lanka haven't won a single test in India never mind about winning a series. Do you know how much Warne and Murali average in India?
Lol I think SA have just won one series in India, they certainly compete very well and draw series' but bullying is different. I wasn't a fan of those wickets personally but SA were atrocious even on standard tracks at Bangalore and Delhi. They also struggled to put a competitive score against Bangladesh of all teams before the series. It was no coincidence. You are massively overrating the South African team. All teams move in cycles and after the greats in Smith, Kallis, Boucher, etc., retired, a slump in form was expected. It's not because SA have been dealt a rough hand. It is what the SA fans were saying after Ind series but the English demonstrated that it was no coincidence either. The Australian tour will reveal more about the pedigree of the current SA team.
Haroon786
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Okay I'll spell it out in layman terms.
SA are great when it comes to ODI bilaterals, they probably have the best record out of all teams along with Australia. However, when they play ICC tournaments they lose the plot in KO rounds.
In regards to this they have a fairly healthy sample size and it keeps on getting larger with each ICC tourney.
In 2015, SA lost in the SF of the WC.
Haroon786
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You rate SA as the no 2 Test team yet you have no justification for your claim. Apart from AB (even he struggles in some countries) and Amla there are no proven batsmen in your team who you can say can play in other countries. Your bowlers apart from Steyn aren't proven outside SA.
The likes of Cook and Co. might not be complete mugs, I do recollect them failing in India and at home vs England but they haven't done anything vs good bowlers to claim they are some of the world's best batsmen.
Owned by Philander ? Only if all the pitches are green and the umpires don't catch anyone ball tampering.
Rabada is overhyped, he is a potential great but he isn't anything more than decent atm IMO. Against England in the first 3 Tests he got smashed by the tourists, particularly vs Stokes in that double ton and he got the 13fer to cover up his failure in the series beforehand in the 4th Test, a dead rubber when the series was already over.
Of course, I'm not saying Pakistan would have an easy time in SA but I do think they have a great chance to win if Steyn weren't to play.
I'm not sure whether you've heard of player cycles or not but 2 years back England were in poor form losing to SL in a 2 match series and then going 1-0 down to India after 2 Tests at home and that's when their resurgence began and since then they have only lost 1 series in Tests and guess who to ? Pakistan.
Kind of ironic that you say the Pakistani draw in England isn't a big deal since you lost to England in your own backyard. Heck, Pakistan had beaten England at home just a few months before England did the same to SA in 2015.
I'm not saying I mind seamer friendly pitches they're food for diversity and make it interesting but what I don't like to see is that when a set of fans use away pitches as excuses for their team's losses away and then don't acknowledge the help of home pitches in their team's victory at home.
soso_killer
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Politics are always mangled in sports, it happens everywhere. However the BCCI are abusing the political tension between the two countries. One moment Pakistan are allowed in India, the next moment they aren't. India agrees to tour the UAE, then back track making excuses about match fixing being ripe in that part of the world. When that was disputed, they had to "consult" with the government and acquire "permission". Then the narrative changed completely and wanted to host Pakistan, knowing fully well Pakistan would never agree especially after being strung along like promiscuous women.
And the "quota" system is meant to address to socioeconomic gap between the rich and the poor, provide opportunities for those who had limited access to cricket infrastructures and coaching. Its basically meant to integrate the poor and the disadvantaged into main stream sport. There'll be pros and cons. In the short term SA might be slightly 'diluted', in the long term they'll be stronger and have a wider talent pool. Remember no one is saying white players can't play.
I'm not sure what the benefits of Pakistan-India not playing each other are.
Yes, i believe Asian sides would compete better if they toured regularly than the likes of SA, Aus & Eng. All played more in India.
yes SA have won just one series in India, but have generally done well there. Prior to the apocalypse they had a 5 all record there. Whereas India haven't done anything in SA but cop regular pastings.
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