How successful will India be under Virat Kohli's Captaincy?

[msdfan]

350/2 . Very much aggressive hehe

 

[the_best]

I am not kohli fan. But surely dhoni would not keep two close in fielders to a batsman batting at 101. that is aggressiveness. If Dhoni was captain - the score might have been 260 without loss. But it is the wicket column that counts in test. Kohli - the on field captain pass that test. But team selection - I do not know how much input he had but Rohit for Pujara is simple insane even Raina for Dhawan questionable for me. SCG a traditional spin pitch and no second spinner but a swing bowler. He failed there

 

[Amjid Javed]

Tough baptism of fire for Kohli here hes made some strange choices with team selection and decisions on the 1st day but am sure like any captain he will learn with time

 

[OZGOD]

Tough day at the office for Virat. You can be as aggressive as you want but unless you have a bowling attack that can take wickets or restrict run scoring or bowl the right lines and lengths you won't be winning too many games of cricket (as Michael Clarke found out in the UAE).

Virat Kohli silenced as India's new captain turns funky in the field

Chris Barrett
Published: January 6, 2015 - 8:47PM

For once, Virat Kohli didn't direct vent his inner rage towards the Australians. He was too busy pointing the finger in the direction of his teammates.

With funky fielding placements and bowling changes, India's resident bundle of aggression turned to the alternative, and unsuccessfully, on a long day in the Sydney sun for the tourists.

It wasn't the first day of full-time captaincy Kohli had probably envisioned, although when the flip of the coin went Steve Smith's way first thing in the morning there was reason to believe it might go that way.

Belter. Road. Whatever you want to call it, Australia's batsmen certainly made the SCG strip seem like an impenetrable shield on the first day of the fourth Test as India's attack was treated like a bowling machine.

After the three-day fiasco of last summer's Ashes finale, this shouldn't have come as a surprise. If the capitulation by England 12 months ago left Michael Clarke's team celebrating early, Cricket Australia and the SCG Trust were left counting the cost. Losing a day's Test cricket, let alone two, hits hard on the bottom line and a green top is a beancounter's worst nightmare.

The delayed placement of this year's Sydney Test on the calendar makes it even more important, in revenue terms, for it be alive on the last day, as it falls on a Saturday.

This is not the concern of Kohli and India, of course, who had enough on their plates on Tuesday, with a fifth day seeming an eternity away.

They were done no favours by the benign pitch and Shane Warne and Brett Lee, life members of the bowlers' club, bagged it as the afternoon wore on, labelling it too favourable for batsmen.

As little assistance as they gained from the new ball, however, the tourists were far from without fault, with dropped catches and impatience their main issues. You knew it was a bad day when their bowling coach, Bharat Arun, was sent into a press conference on Tuesday night to answer questions, not a bowler.

The spilling of Chris Rogers on 19 by Lokesh Rahul was a shocker but Kohli's captaincy also came under scrutiny, as he switched around fields willy-nilly in the morning and later his bowlers.

At one point after tea, the three seamers – Mohammed Shami, Umesh Yadav and Bhuvneshwar Kumar – were called on for one-over spells from the Paddington end as spinner Ravi Ashwin held up the other.

"It sent out a message of impatience to the bowlers," Ian Chappell said on Channel Nine. "And I think that contributed to the bad bowling. But I don't understand this sort of impatience; one-over spells, that's not giving the bowler a chance at all."

Michael Clarke, the injured Australian captain, was also without answers for the tactics: "I don't think I have a reason to give you why Virat has done that. I think in the shorter form of the game, T20 cricket, the one-over spells can work so a batter doesn't get too used to a particular bowler. But in a Test match I don't know the exact reason ... maybe it was to try something different to get a breakthrough."

It didn't work and Kohli's ploy seemed to mystify the Indians as well. "I'll really have to discuss with the captain and find out what the strategy was there," Arun said.

There was at least an explanation from India as to why the left out their most effective bowler of this tour, Ishant Sharma, in Sydney. He has "left knee pain", a team spokesman said, reason enough to rest him for what many will say is their primary mission here this summer – winning the World Cup.

With Kohli's men likely to be staring at a huge Australian total, the suggestion is this pitch, as lifeless as it appears, will turn by day three. The problem for India is they'll be batting then.

This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket...turns-funky-in-the-field-20150106-12iwsq.html

 

[OZGOD]

I am not kohli fan. But surely dhoni would not keep two close in fielders to a batsman batting at 101. that is aggressiveness. If Dhoni was captain - the score might have been 260 without loss. But it is the wicket column that counts in test. Kohli - the on field captain pass that test. But team selection - I do not know how much input he had but Rohit for Pujara is simple insane even Raina for Dhawan questionable for me. SCG a traditional spin pitch and no second spinner but a swing bowler. He failed there

He did well on that count. Managed two wickets at least. One of them an inside edge.

 

[adit_sh]

He did well on that count. Managed two wickets at least. One of them an inside edge.

Cant judge a captain when your bowlers are rubbish. Steve Smith can be judged but not Kohli.

 

[Saurav]

There was turn. Should have played another spinner

 

[MMHS]

I don't think VK had much options here. With due respect, I have hardly seen an elite Test side bowling so poor on first morning. BK started at 125KM, with no swing, rest 2 were even more pathetic. It was a good batting wicket indeed, but no matter how good, on Day 1 morning if your pacers starts at 6/over without any threat, Captain can hardly do miracles. The catch drop didn't help either.

However, I was really upset to see IND going with 4 bowlers - MJ was out, the Series already lost, I think, this was the ideal opportunity to play 5 bowlers. I understand the logic of picking Shami over Ishant - this is a dry surface with little grass, I also think Shami 'll get better return with old ball that Ishant with the new one, but IND should have played the leggi.

I see a little crack in India's team bondage & I think, Shastri has a big hand in that. I am a big critic of Pujara, but there is none at present even close to him for batting at 3 - IND is playing Bombay boy (Rohit Sharma) there!!!!!!!!! If anywhere in series, it was SCG where I back Pujara to play best & he was dropped in favor of RS & SR, which I don't agree. May be IND had the idea of getting some overs out of Reina (flawed strategy, AUS is the worst place for bits & pieces all-rounders), but I would have picked K Sharma over him.

AUS is at it's weakest in many years, I can't recall when last time I have seen an Aussie side with such attack. May be in mid 80s when Lillee, Thompson, Pascoe retired, Lawson got injured while Alderman, Rackman, Hogg went to SAF & McDermott, Reid & Hughes yet to emerge. For 2/3 years AUS pace attack was as good as IND those days.

I 'll be a bit surprised if IND loses his match on this track, against this attack. Under MS, I am sure IND would have got away with a draw. May be, if AUS puts another 300 in 5 hours tomorrow, then it can happen, otherwise I think, IND 'll manage to struggle past a draw. But VK isn't good at restricting scoring, in which MS was a master.

 

[IndianWillow]

I don't know what Umesh does in the nets. He is a very leaky bowler and if he does not get wickets, his bowling figures resemble a club bowler. The bowlers have to learn at least the basics - if they can't get wickets at least choke the flow of runs. This is not a hard job in a test match, whatever the pitch. 6 r/o in a test match is criminal, especially from a bowler supposed to lead the pack. When you see India go through the same thing match after match, you feel this team will never change. I switched off my TV after 2 hours today, and the scores at the end of day matched up with what I expected at lunch.

 

[MMHS]

I don't know what Umesh does in the nets. He is a very leaky bowler and if he does not get wickets, his bowling figures resemble a club bowler. The bowlers have to learn at least the basics - if they can't get wickets at least choke the flow of runs. This is not a hard job in a test match, whatever the pitch. 6 r/o in a test match is criminal, especially from a bowler supposed to lead the pack. When you see India go through the same thing match after match, you feel this team will never change. I switched off my TV after 2 hours today, and the scores at the end of day matched up with what I expected at lunch.

I know, 2 different formats & the white Kookaburra is much bowlers friendly than the red one, but I think, now you can visualize the difference between Indian pace attack of 1992, 96, 99 & 2003 with this lot. That lot had intelligence & had the bite back capability - in 2015 WC, if any team goes after & succeeds, trust me, MS 'll lose half of his black beards during the course of 50 overs.

 

[CricketCartoons]

A great day for Kohli the aggressive captain so far. Already has done well(3 wickets in 2 sessions) compared to yesterday(2 wickets in 3 sessions)

 

[Random Aussie]

Yeah so far it's going really well no?

 

[EliteCynic]

Yeah I get that. At the end, results have to be there.

Let's see how it goes.

What do you reckon now SIF? Got a decent pitch to bowl on, almost an Indian pitch and after the initial tight spell, got a phainta from Joe Burns (Come on!) and started bowling carrom balls all over the place. Still think he is not a spinner and yesterday's spell proved it.

Having said that, I'm now thinking, why cant he change his game like a Steven Smith (who came in a leg spinner initially) or Ravi Shastri and go on to a full time batsman and part time offie mode? this would give us the cushion of an extra bat and extra spinner, while we have the main spinner in the team. I think that is the way to go in the future.

Ashwin as no. 1 spinner, just doesn't cut it out for me. Guy is a disaster abroad. Yes, everyone are taking about, "Oh he bowled well, oh, Aussies were looking for quick runs, oh, he was unlucky, blah blah". end of the day, his figures are sorry and only that matters.

Due to our 'more pathetic than usual' bowling, we are on the verge of a 3-0 loss. Not sure how we can avoid it!

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

What do you reckon now SIF? Got a decent pitch to bowl on, almost an Indian pitch and after the initial tight spell, got a phainta from Joe Burns (Come on!) and started bowling carrom balls all over the place. Still think he is not a spinner and yesterday's spell proved it.

Having said that, I'm now thinking, why cant he change his game like a Steven Smith (who came in a leg spinner initially) or Ravi Shastri and go on to a full time batsman and part time offie mode? this would give us the cushion of an extra bat and extra spinner, while we have the main spinner in the team. I think that is the way to go in the future.

Ashwin as no. 1 spinner, just doesn't cut it out for me. Guy is a disaster abroad. Yes, everyone are taking about, "Oh he bowled well, oh, Aussies were looking for quick runs, oh, he was unlucky, blah blah". end of the day, his figures are sorry and only that matters.

Due to our 'more pathetic than usual' bowling, we are on the verge of a 3-0 loss. Not sure how we can avoid it!

Oh God...

I watched the Aus innings fully.

He was simply brilliant today. Its not just me.....a lot of people feel that.

If you thought it was Ashwin's fault today, then I have nothing to say.

Did you see that he almost got Joe Burns today? Stumping (missed - tough one agreed) and almost bowled.

He wasn't getting whacked by bowling flat. He was tossing it up outside off stump and spinning it in. Joe Burns looked like Yuvi to me. Bad at defending spin but great at smashing them. He went for the charge, connected and got runs. Ashwin went round the wicket, bowled carroms and got him in the end. Maybe he should have done it earlier. That I agree.

Seriously you think Ashwin was bad today......I am speechless to be honest.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/content/story/818825.html

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin is a over rated test batsman (good but over rated) and a under rated Test bowler in my opinion.

He can't be a Top 6 bat without working on his batting game big time.

 

[EliteCynic]

Oh God...

I watched the Aus innings fully.

He was simply brilliant today. Its not just me.....a lot of people feel that.

If you thought it was Ashwin's fault today, then I have nothing to say.

Did you see that he almost got Joe Burns today? Stumping (missed - tough one agreed) and almost bowled.

He wasn't getting whacked by bowling flat. He was tossing it up outside off stump and spinning it in. Joe Burns looked like Yuvi to me. Bad at defending spin but great at smashing them. He went for the charge, connected and got runs. Ashwin went round the wicket, bowled carroms and got him in the end. Maybe he should have done it earlier. That I agree.

Seriously you think Ashwin was bad today......I am speechless to be honest.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/content/story/818825.html

No, That's not what i am saying. He was not bad at all. As i said, he bowled beautifully to Chris Rogers in his initial spell. But again, doesn't have the figures to back it up yet again. That Joe Burns stumping was a tough one. Not sure how many keepers would have got that. I am disappointed as to what happened after that.

As I have been saying again and again, these 'well bowled ash, hard luck mate' is not working for me after what 9-10 tests abroad. His figures are humongously disappointing and no, i don't think he should be dropped from the team. I just think he shouldn't be our No 1 spinner abroad. Now who would replace him, is a different q altogether. But for now, i think he could be a decent No 6 batsman who can bowl quite a few overs of spin. Not our main spinner though.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin as no. 1 spinner, just doesn't cut it out for me. Guy is a disaster abroad. Yes, everyone are taking about, "Oh he bowled well, oh, Aussies were looking for quick runs, oh, he was unlucky, blah blah". end of the day, his figures are sorry and only that matters.

Figures aren't the be all and end all. Context matters.

At the other end, we leak at 6 rpo EVEN BEFORE Aussies start slogging.

Ashwin was bowling well. Looked like taking wicket every over.

Soon Aussies got to a decently safe zone bcos of the barrage of runs leaked and they started taking everyone.

Guess what happens then? Even Ashwin gets whacked.

Bowling in tandem matters.

 

[IndianWillow]

What do you reckon now SIF? Got a decent pitch to bowl on, almost an Indian pitch and after the initial tight spell, got a phainta from Joe Burns (Come on!) and started bowling carrom balls all over the place. Still think he is not a spinner and yesterday's spell proved it.

Having said that, I'm now thinking, why cant he change his game like a Steven Smith (who came in a leg spinner initially) or Ravi Shastri and go on to a full time batsman and part time offie mode? this would give us the cushion of an extra bat and extra spinner, while we have the main spinner in the team. I think that is the way to go in the future.

Ashwin as no. 1 spinner, just doesn't cut it out for me. Guy is a disaster abroad. Yes, everyone are taking about, "Oh he bowled well, oh, Aussies were looking for quick runs, oh, he was unlucky, blah blah". end of the day, his figures are sorry and only that matters.

Due to our 'more pathetic than usual' bowling, we are on the verge of a 3-0 loss. Not sure how we can avoid it!

What are you talking about? Ashwin was brilliant today. Australia had a lead and were under no pressure to bat today and they were throwing their bats at every thing. It isn't easy as a slow bowler to bowl under these conditions, Ashwin proved that he can bowl by picking up 4 wkts and also keeping it tight early on. At one point his figures read 14-2-62-3 which is awesome given the match situation and how other bowlers were going at 6rpo without taking wickets. Saha missed a clear stumping chance off Ashwin - just before Burns went on the rampage.

 

[EliteCynic]

Ashwin is a over rated test batsman (good but over rated) and a under rated Test bowler in my opinion.

He can't be a Top 6 bat without working on his batting game big time.

It is the opp for me. Overrated as test bowler and underrated as batsman.

 

[EliteCynic]

What are you talking about? Ashwin was brilliant today. Australia had a lead and were under no pressure to bat today and they were throwing their bats at every thing. It isn't easy as a slow bowler to bowl under these conditions, Ashwin proved that he can bowl by picking up 4 wkts and also keeping it tight early on. At one point his figures read 14-2-62-3 which is awesome given the match situation and how other bowlers were going at 6rpo without taking wickets. Saha missed a clear stumping chance off Ashwin - just before Burns went on the rampage.

Please see post 177. Burns stumping was a toughie. The thing is when Shami gets 5 wickets people say 'ha! cheap wickets', but when Ashwin gets 4, people say he bowled brilliantly.

 

[MMHS]

Coming to the topic - How IND 'll do under VK...

First of all, I think I was among the first here who thinks VK is the right person to lead IND. BUT, my hunch is, unless IND improves it's bowling SIGNIFICANTLY, statistically VK 'll be much, much inferior than MSD. Why?

Because MSD was an outstanding defensive Captain - with his limited resources, he could squeeze batting side into suffocation. In ODI, with Indian attack, what he has achieved, I doubt anyone can ever repeat that. For the disadvantage of VK, he is extremely aggressive, not the best operating mode when you don't have a single world class bowler. In IND, VK 'll win lot of matches, but that's nothing new, MS won lot more tournaments.

MSD was master of adopting into situations & counter strategy - at the end of the day ODI is extremely defensive form of game. Defensive doesn't mean putting 9 men on line - 4 on outer & 5 on inner line ala Shahid Khan's aggression, defensive means - while batting, don't try to manufacture a boundary as long as a single is available & while bowling - don't allow the RR to race for the sake of wickets - dot balls are the key. This is one reason why I have seen MS struggle to strike in abroad Test - he is habituated of calculating dots. In ODI, whenever a wicket fells, he takes the opportunity to off-load some of his weaker overs to the new batsman & create pressure by intelligent field placings. It doesn't work in Test......

VK is aggressive, I don't think there 'll be much change in India's home result, but VK 'll struggle with this attack abroad. He has a long, long way to go to master the "depriving" tactics with a poor attack - my hunch is IND 'll lose more away matches under VK. Just for an example - both Adelaide & MCG Test was interrupted by rain, both cases AUS got a similar lead, but they won the first one & drew the second - I put the entire credit to MSD. It's not only that IND tried to win at Adelaide - The MASTER Trick was on last morning - I am sure, had VK been Captain, he would have taken the new ball when due & Aussies would have raced to a 375+ lead & 85 overs to bowl - here 85 is a key figure because that would have allowed MJ & RH 5 overs with 2nd new ball to throw everything at "not so good" Indian tail.

Aggressive Captain is great when you have weapons, otherwise it's self destructive.

VK has managed exactly what I thought - allowed AUS to put 250 in 40 overs & now Aussies 'll get 90 overs to take 10 wickets on a far difficult & deteriorating wicket. MS would have kept Aussies at least one hour into last day for similar target.

 

[IndianWillow]

Figures aren't the be all and end all. Context matters.

At the other end, we leak at 6 rpo EVEN BEFORE Aussies start slogging.

Ashwin was bowling well. Looked like taking wicket every over.

Soon Aussies got to a decently safe zone bcos of the barrage of runs leaked and they started taking everyone.

Guess what happens then? Even Ashwin gets whacked.

Bowling in tandem matters.

His figures weren't bad either. When did 4-105 in Australia become bad for an Indian spinner? That is a bowling average of 26.25 and a S/R of 28.5! Ashwin would be more than happy to repeat these figures every time he bowls in Australia.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

No, That's not what i am saying. He was not bad at all. As i said, he bowled beautifully to Chris Rogers in his initial spell. But again, doesn't have the figures to back it up yet again. That Joe Burns stumping was a tough one. Not sure how many keepers would have got that. I am disappointed as to what happened after that.

As I have been saying again and again, these 'well bowled ash, hard luck mate' is not working for me after what 9-10 tests abroad. His figures are humongously disappointing and no, i don't think he should be dropped from the team. I just think he shouldn't be our No 1 spinner abroad. Now who would replace him, is a different q altogether. But for now, i think he could be a decent No 6 batsman who can bowl quite a few overs of spin. Not our main spinner though.

He cannot be a No 6 batsman. As of now.

Seriously.

He just can't (as of now).

IMHO he bowled beautifully to Burns too. Was tossing it up again and again (something which he NEVER DOES)...Burns attacked and it clicked.

Maybe Ashwin should have gone around the wicket sooner but that one aspect of tossing up (in the right areas) when attacked is what is the hallmark of a good Test spinner and a sign that Ashwin was maturing. Any other day, Ashwin would have got Burns earlier. Today wasn't that day. I agree that the strategy should have been changed becos runs were leaking fast but he wasn't bowling at all. Very very few bad balls.

 

[EliteCynic]

VK has managed exactly what I thought - allowed AUS to put 250 in 40 overs & now Aussies 'll get 90 overs to take 10 wickets on a far difficult & deteriorating wicket. MS would have kept Aussies at least one hour into last day for similar target.

Very good point, but think of it in this way - BK has got 1 more hour on last day to chase the target. MS would have lost anyway, but VK will give a fight and lose and that is what matters to me EOD.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

VK has managed exactly what I thought - allowed AUS to put 250 in 40 overs & now Aussies 'll get 90 overs to take 10 wickets on a far difficult & deteriorating wicket. MS would have kept Aussies at least one hour into last day for similar target.

Virat may lose this Test bcos of his aggression but the same aggression will make him win more matches in the future which Dhoni would have conceded.

I am not a big Kohli captaincy fan but I hate the soul sucking Dhoni captaincy.

 

[Saurav]

Ashwin was good today but that pitch was perfect for him with turn and bounce.On such a pitch you expect him to either run through a side or atleast keep the pressure on with runs down.He was able to do neither

Was good vs lefties but once again Smith looked very comfortable even on that track,and even Burns was able to put pressure on him

 

[Saurav]

His figures weren't bad either. When did 4-105 in Australia become bad for an Indian spinner? That is a bowling average of 26.25 and a S/R of 28.5! Ashwin would be more than happy to repeat these figures every time he bowls in Australia.

Every time he won't get such a turning and bouncing track

 

[EliteCynic]

His figures weren't bad either. When did 4-105 in Australia become bad for an Indian spinner? That is a bowling average of 26.25 and a S/R of 28.5! Ashwin would be more than happy to repeat these figures every time he bowls in Australia.

I was talking about his over all figures abroad which now reads 9 matches, 24 wickets, Av 56.58 and SR 104.2 and those are seriously not good for your No 1 spinner. I know he has improved in the last couple of tests and has bowled beautifully, but I think it is time we think beyond him.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It is the opp for me. Overrated as test bowler and underrated as batsman.

He is a natural Test batsman than a natural test bowler.

Has some unreal skills as a Test bat (ability to play every delivery no matter how much it swings - the fact that he scores inspite of doing that is a testament to his ability).

But ability is one part. He has to learn how to leave, how to duck bouncers (he can play bouncers easily but can't hook them properly...but he is a compulsive hooker..)

Talent is one part.

All round skills to deliver is another.

Ashwin can become a Top 6 Test bat but he needs some major work. I am afraid focusing on that might prevent him from using that time to improve his bowling.

Over time, when his bowling is developed, he can spend more time on his batting.

 

[Saurav]

Oh God...

I watched the Aus innings fully.

He was simply brilliant today. Its not just me.....a lot of people feel that.

If you thought it was Ashwin's fault today, then I have nothing to say.

Did you see that he almost got Joe Burns today? Stumping (missed - tough one agreed) and almost bowled.

He wasn't getting whacked by bowling flat. He was tossing it up outside off stump and spinning it in. Joe Burns looked like Yuvi to me. Bad at defending spin but great at smashing them. He went for the charge, connected and got runs. Ashwin went round the wicket, bowled carroms and got him in the end. Maybe he should have done it earlier. That I agree.

Seriously you think Ashwin was bad today......I am speechless to be honest.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/content/story/818825.html

Tossing it up doesnt necessarily mean good bowling,specially on such tracks.Bowling quick works great if you hit the rough areas consistently as you can get turn out of those anyway and it'll be quick turn,much harder to play.And its harder to hit ofcourse

I feel someone like Axar/Jaddu could have been great with their accuracy and quick pace.Should have play Axar too here

 

[Saurav]

He is a natural Test batsman than a natural test bowler.

Has some unreal skills as a Test bat (ability to play every delivery no matter how much it swings - the fact that he scores inspite of doing that is a testament to his ability).

But ability is one part. He has to learn how to leave, how to duck bouncers (he can play bouncers easily but can't hook them properly...but he is a compulsive hooker..)

Talent is one part.

All round skills to deliver is another.

Ashwin can become a Top 6 Test bat but he needs some major work. I am afraid focusing on that might prevent him from using that time to improve his bowling.

Over time, when his bowling is developed, he can spend more time on his batting.

Don't agree.Hes more than good enough for top 6 considering our other top 6 like Rohit/Raina havent done anything either.

Can't do worse but if it works,can allow us to play 5 bowlers

No harm in trying

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Tossing it up doesnt necessarily mean good bowling,specially on such tracks.Bowling quick works great if you hit the rough areas consistently as you can get turn out of those anyway and it'll be quick turn,much harder to play.And its harder to hit ofcourse

I feel someone like Axar/Jaddu could have been great with their accuracy and quick pace.Should have play Axar too here

Why didn't Jaddu do anything in Lord's 5th day rough when it was spitting.

Why didn't he take out Moeen Ali?

I watched the whole last day of that match and Jaddu couldn't make a mark and against Joe Root - he was literally harmless.

Jaddu would have been handy sure.....but he ain't a better Test bowler than Ashwin IMHO (except in rank turners).

With that being said, I am convinced that India needs 2 spinners in all pitches. They will keep things tight and come into play in 3rd, 4th innings.

 

[EliteCynic]

He is a natural Test batsman than a natural test bowler.

Has some unreal skills as a Test bat (ability to play every delivery no matter how much it swings - the fact that he scores inspite of doing that is a testament to his ability).

But ability is one part. He has to learn how to leave, how to duck bouncers (he can play bouncers easily but can't hook them properly...but he is a compulsive hooker..)

Talent is one part.

All round skills to deliver is another.

Ashwin can become a Top 6 Test bat but he needs some major work. I am afraid focusing on that might prevent him from using that time to improve his bowling.

Over time, when his bowling is developed, he can spend more time on his batting.

It been a long time now and development seems stunted.

When Steven smith first made his debut as a leg spinner who could bat a bit, did you EVER imagine, he would turn his game around like this? I can even recall a thread calling him the worst cricketer ever.

So you never know unless Ash takes up the challenge. If VK comes to him and says 'Listen mate, we need you, country needs you, man up and be our No 6. I am ready to invest some time', I think he should give it a shot.

 

[EliteCynic]

Tossing it up doesnt necessarily mean good bowling,specially on such tracks.Bowling quick works great if you hit the rough areas consistently as you can get turn out of those anyway and it'll be quick turn,much harder to play.And its harder to hit ofcourse

I feel someone like Axar/Jaddu could have been great with their accuracy and quick pace.Should have play Axar too here

Don't agree.Hes more than good enough for top 6 considering our other top 6 like Rohit/Raina havent done anything either.

Can't do worse but if it works,can allow us to play 5 bowlers

No harm in trying

Thank God, someone here thinks the same as I do. I think this is the way to go with Ash. The Ravi shastri/Steve Smith way. He cannot be our main spinner anymore.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It been a long time now and development seems stunted.

When Steven smith first made his debut as a leg spinner who could bat a bit, did you EVER imagine, he would turn his game around like this? I can even recall a thread calling him the worst cricketer ever.

So you never know unless Ash takes up the challenge. If VK comes to him and says 'Listen mate, we need you, country needs you, man up and be our No 6. I am ready to invest some time', I think he should give it a shot.

I never said Ash can't.

But it should not be at the expense of his time used to develop his bowling.

Players with great timing VVS, Mark Waugh, Anwar, Ashwin, etc would look like a dream when they are in flow and would look really bad when not in flow.

I think such players need a lot of practice to be in the zone.

You could see that in Ashwin.

He played Swann and Monty on raging rank turners and then couldn't put bat on ball against Lyon at home.

Its not that he became a bad batsman but just that he went out of zone.

Next series against WI, with India 150-6, he walked out and along with Rohit Sharma played a rampant Shillingford (and his dodgy doosras) and scored a century.

See...its a see saw with him. He needs a lot of practice to be a Top 6 bat and if you go that route RIGHT NOW, you could

1. Either have a good Top 6 bat
2. or have another Irfan Pathan

 

[EliteCynic]

Why didn't Jaddu do anything in Lord's 5th day rough when it was spitting.

Why didn't he take out Moeen Ali?

I watched the whole last day of that match and Jaddu couldn't make a mark and against Joe Root - he was literally harmless.

Jaddu would have been handy sure.....but he ain't a better Test bowler than Ashwin IMHO (except in rank turners).

With that being said, I am convinced that India needs 2 spinners in all pitches. They will keep things tight and come into play in 3rd, 4th innings.

Well Jaddu got 6 wickets in Durban on a pitch which was far less helpful than the Sydney pitch and that too in the first innings. Not supporting Jaddu or Axar, but 'would've could've should've' will not help us over here.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Don't agree.Hes more than good enough for top 6 considering our other top 6 like Rohit/Raina havent done anything either.

Can't do worse but if it works,can allow us to play 5 bowlers

No harm in trying

I said he can be a No 7 bat.

And we need 5 bowlers.

He can't play in the Top 6.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Well Jaddu got 6 wickets in Durban on a pitch which was far less helpful than the Sydney pitch and that too in the first innings. Not supporting Jaddu or Axar, but 'would've could've should've' will not help us over here.

Ashwin got 4 wickets out of 6 and Rogers wasn't given (umpires call but looked out in real time).

So this innings is not over. 4 wickets left.

Plus when Jaddu was bowling, the other end we weren't leaking at 6 rpo. Plus no one was slogging.

 

[EliteCynic]

I never said Ash can't.

But it should not be at the expense of his time used to develop his bowling.

Players with great timing VVS, Mark Waugh, Anwar, Ashwin, etc would look like a dream when they are in flow and would look really bad when not in flow.

I think such players need a lot of practice to be in the zone.

You could see that in Ashwin.

He played Swann and Monty on raging rank turners and then couldn't put bat on ball against Lyon at home.

Its not that he became a bad batsman but just that he went out of zone.

Next series against WI, with India 150-6, he walked out and along with Rohit Sharma played a rampant Shillingford (and his dodgy doosras) and scored a century.

See...its a see saw with him. He needs a lot of practice to be a Top 6 bat and if you go that route RIGHT NOW, you could

1. Either have a good Top 6 bat
2. or have another Irfan Pathan

here is a list of our batsmen who have played abroad from 2011. You know who our number 6 were in each of our matches. Have a look for yourself and make your choice. See where Ashwin is.

And before you jump on to the 'what about home tests' bandwagon, let me tell you, he averages 43 with the bat at home.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

here is a list of our batsmen who have played abroad from 2011. You know who our number 6 were in each of our matches. Have a look for yourself and make your choice. See where Ashwin is.

And before you jump on to the 'what about home tests' bandwagon, let me tell you, he averages 43 with the bat at home.

View attachment 52699

I rate Ashwin the test bat. When did I ever say otherwise?

But there is a world of difference in having a good average at the lower order compared to Top 6. Look at the runs column.

Ashwin needs some work to be done to be a Top 6 bat.

I would be happy if he could do it but as of now, he needs a lot of work done.

Let him stay at No 7 and let's play 5 bowlers.

 

[Saurav]

Why didn't Jaddu do anything in Lord's 5th day rough when it was spitting.

Why didn't he take out Moeen Ali?

I watched the whole last day of that match and Jaddu couldn't make a mark and against Joe Root - he was literally harmless.

Jaddu would have been handy sure.....but he ain't a better Test bowler than Ashwin IMHO (except in rank turners).

With that being said, I am convinced that India needs 2 spinners in all pitches. They will keep things tight and come into play in 3rd, 4th innings.

he did on the 4th day and created 3-4 day chances including Moeen that went begging?Remember that ridiculous field setting where everyone stood back?. plus had a very close LBW call.

On 5th day it wasnt really spitting.it had settled down.

Even Durban wasnt as spin friendly as today but he took wickets and bowled economically both.

He can keep it tight if its flat even against best players and take wickets when its turning.No coincidence his away record is better.

Overall though Ashwin's a better package ofcourse.

Not sure about 2 spinners on every pitch but surely pitches such as these.Even 3 lol.

Otherwise only Ashwin should play with 4 pacers

I'm not sure of 2 spinners on all pitches,but surely on turning ones.On others Ashwin plays as an allrounder.but 5 bowlers are must

 

[EliteCynic]

Ashwin got 4 wickets out of 6 and Rogers wasn't given (umpires call but looked out in real time).

So this innings is not over. 4 wickets left.

Plus when Jaddu was bowling, the other end we weren't leaking at 6 rpo. Plus no one was slogging.

Which is why it is even more difficult to take wickets. Ashwin got a couple of cheap wickets, just like how Shami got (according to you) in the first innings.

Once again SIF, defending him ball by ball and 'coulda shoulda woulda'? You cannot give a job to a guy who studied hard and gave his 100% in the exams or who came late, coz he was helping an old lady cross the road. You can only give the job to the guy who has proven credentials and right now it doesn't look like Ashwin will pass the test.

 

[Saurav]

I said he can be a No 7 bat.

And we need 5 bowlers.

He can't play in the Top 6.

Well then Saha at 6 and Ashwin at 7.No need to play 6th specialist bat when its not working at all

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Which is why it is even more difficult to take wickets. Ashwin got a couple of cheap wickets, just like how Shami got (according to you) in the first innings.

Once again SIF, defending him ball by ball and 'coulda shoulda woulda'? You cannot give a job to a guy who studied hard and gave his 100% in the exams or who came late, coz he was helping an old lady cross the road. You can only give the job to the guy who has proven credentials and right now it doesn't look like Ashwin will pass the test.

Ashwin got cheap wickets?

Warner - caught in slips.
Rogers - almost lbw.
Marsh - Caught in slips
Watson - ok that spun in but he got bowled - can be considered a cheap wicket
Burns - slog and got him out....but he did almost get him out twice in a conventional way

How is this as a whole cheap wickets?

Bhuvi got a cheap wicket of Rogers today.

Ashwin's was anything but that. Kept looking like he would take wickets.

Very very surprised with your arguments bro.

 

[EliteCynic]

I rate Ashwin the test bat. When did I ever say otherwise?

But there is a world of difference in having a good average at the lower order compared to Top 6. Look at the runs column.

Ashwin needs some work to be done to be a Top 6 bat.

I would be happy if he could do it but as of now, he needs a lot of work done.

Let him stay at No 7 and let's play 5 bowlers.

I don't think you saw the list correctly. I said, have a look and compare against the other No 6 bats we have had over the past 3 years and he has performed much better than No 6. Now to say that he would have no pressure at No 7 is wrong coz he is under more pressure as No 6 did not do his job, which was mostly the case.

He cant be at No 7 and play 5 bowlers, coz you know why!

 

[EliteCynic]

Ashwin got cheap wickets?

Warner - caught in slips.
Rogers - almost lbw.
Marsh - Caught in slips
Watson - ok that spun in but he got bowled - can be considered a cheap wicket
Burns - slog and got him out....but he did almost get him out twice in a conventional way

How is this as a whole cheap wickets?

Bhuvi got a cheap wicket of Rogers today.

Ashwin's was anything but that. Kept looking like he would take wickets.

Very very surprised with your arguments bro.

I said couple of cheap wickets - Watson and Burns who were looking to accelerate. Almost LBW's don't count for me and the selectors.

But bro, you are missing the bigger picture.

You said, let Ashwin get a helpful track and we shall see. Well he did get a helpful track but no he did not perform up to the make according to me and your argument is that the bowler at the other end was bowling crap and I take that. Still, doesn't justify the way Ashwin bowled later on. Now I'm thinking he almost did an Amit Mishra there.

You asked what did Jaddu do in Lords and had he played in Durban, he could have done better, and the answer to that is a big No. Jaddu bolwed to better players of spin than Ashwin and took 6 wickets on a less helpful track and that too in the first innings where no one was slogging. So now, if you want to make a comparison, there is a real comparison for you.

But, i dont want to compare Jaddu and Ashwin. Ijust want to put and end to Ashwin as no 1 spinner nonsense and move on.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

he did on the 4th day and created 3-4 day chances including Moeen that went begging?Remember that ridiculous field setting where everyone stood back?. plus had a very close LBW call.

On 5th day it wasnt really spitting.it had settled down.

Even Durban wasnt as spin friendly as today but he took wickets and bowled economically both.

He can keep it tight if its flat even against best players and take wickets when its turning.No coincidence his away record is better.

Overall though Ashwin's a better package ofcourse.

Not sure about 2 spinners on every pitch but surely pitches such as these.Even 3 lol.

Otherwise only Ashwin should play with 4 pacers

I'm not sure of 2 spinners on all pitches,but surely on turning ones.On others Ashwin plays as an allrounder.but 5 bowlers are must

Agreed Jaddu created chances on 4th day evening.

In the final day, there was good spin from the rough. Maybe not as spitting as 4th day evening but there was good spin. Jaddu couldn't take out Ali (who is a weak player of spin) and looked harmless against Joe Root.

Durban is spin track these days. Aids spin from the 1st innings.

SL 2011 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/columns/engine/match/514033.html
India -2013 - you know the scores
Ind 2010 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/columns/engine/match/463147.html

2010 Durban was a tough track aiding both spin and pace.

Syndey spins but in the first innings it was a patta. Even last time Ind-Aus match, Ashwin took 0 wickets there and Lyon took 1 wicket in 2 innings.

In the 2nd innings, Sydney turned into a verry good spin track.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I said couple of cheap wickets - Watson and Burns who were looking to accelerate. Almost LBW's don't count for me and the selectors.

But bro, you are missing the bigger picture.

You said, let Ashwin get a helpful track and we shall see. Well he did get a helpful track but no he did not perform up to the make according to me and your argument is that the bowler at the other end was bowling crap and I take that. Still, doesn't justify the way Ashwin bowled later on. Now I'm thinking he almost did an Amit Mishra there.

You asked what did Jaddu do in Lords and had he played in Durban, he could have done better, and the answer to that is a big No. Jaddu bolwed to better players of spin than Ashwin and took 6 wickets on a less helpful track and that too in the first innings where no one was slogging. So now, if you want to make a comparison, there is a real comparison for you.

But, i dont want to compare Jaddu and Ashwin. Ijust want to put and end to Ashwin as no 1 spinner nonsense and move on.

That was a response to another post by another poster. Not talking about Jaddu to defend Ashwin.

I am not missing the big picture.

In fact, I am saying Ashwin was good today even when he was getting whacked. It was proper deliveries that were being despatched. Not some flat bowling which he usually does when attacked.

I agree he should have changed his strategy fast and if you point that out, I won't say a word against that but overall...purely bowling point of view, Ashwin did well.

As for Durban.....over the hill Bhajji on 2010 picked 6 wickets (4 in first innings).
Herath picked 9 wickets (4 in first innings).
Then Jaddu.

I want Jaddu in the team as second spinner but Durban is a spin aiding track these days.

You can check my post above and see the scorecards.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don't think you saw the list correctly. I said, have a look and compare against the other No 6 bats we have had over the past 3 years and he has performed much better than No 6. Now to say that he would have no pressure at No 7 is wrong coz he is under more pressure as No 6 did not do his job, which was mostly the case.

He cant be at No 7 and play 5 bowlers, coz you know why!

yes but over the last few years our Top 6 bats have been garbage.

The goal is NOT for Ashwin to be better than them.

The goal is for us to have a GOOD No 6 bat.

When Ashwin plays at No 7, we can play 5 bowlers.

Ashwin is not good enough to be in the team as a pure bat. Atleast not as of now.

 

[EliteCynic]

That was a response to another post by another poster. Not talking about Jaddu to defend Ashwin.

I am not missing the big picture.

In fact, I am saying Ashwin was good today even when he was getting whacked. It was proper deliveries that were being despatched. Not some flat bowling which he usually does when attacked.

I agree he should have changed his strategy fast and if you point that out, I won't say a word against that but overall...purely bowling point of view, Ashwin did well.

As for Durban.....over the hill Bhajji on 2010 picked 6 wickets (4 in first innings).
Herath picked 9 wickets (4 in first innings).
Then Jaddu.

I want Jaddu in the team as second spinner but Durban is a spin aiding track these days.

You can check my post above and see the scorecards.

Ok, without beating around the bush, I ask you this - Do you think Ashwin should be our number one spinner home and especially away? Now, if you ask me who else is there, then it is a different question. If we give any other spinner 9 games abroad, we can make a fair comparison, but we cannot afford to do that. So please tell me, after seeing his performance on a 3rd innings SCG pitch, which has turned 10 times more than Durban and against slogging Aussie batsmen looking to go over 300 inside the day's play, and who fell like 9 pins against Pak in UAE?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ideal Lineup for overseas:

KL Rahul/any technically correct batsman if Rahul turns out to be too raw for international cricket in good pitches
Vijay
Pujara/any technically correct bat if you want Pujara out....no Rohit
Kohli
Rahane
Saha/any WK bat
Ashwin
Jaddu
Pacer 1
Pacer 2
Pacer 3

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ok, without beating around the bush, I ask you this - Do you think Ashwin should be our number one spinner home and especially away? Now, if you ask me who else is there, then it is a different question. If we give any other spinner 9 games abroad, we can make a fair comparison, but we cannot afford to do that. So please tell me, after seeing his performance on a 3rd innings SCG pitch, which has turned 10 times more than Durban and against slogging Aussie batsmen looking to go over 300 inside the day's play, and who fell like 9 pins against Pak in UAE?

Yes, yes and YES.

No doubt about it.

But we must have other spinners too ready. Don't want Ashwin to get a free ride if he isn't upto the mark.

In this series, he has been pretty good IMHO.

 

[Saurav]

Agreed Jaddu created chances on 4th day evening.

In the final day, there was good spin from the rough. Maybe not as spitting as 4th day evening but there was good spin. Jaddu couldn't take out Ali (who is a weak player of spin) and looked harmless against Joe Root.

Durban is spin track these days. Aids spin from the 1st innings.

SL 2011 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/columns/engine/match/514033.html
India -2013 - you know the scores
Ind 2010 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/columns/engine/match/463147.html

2010 Durban was a tough track aiding both spin and pace.

Syndey spins but in the first innings it was a patta. Even last time Ind-Aus match, Ashwin took 0 wickets there and Lyon took 1 wicket in 2 innings.

In the 2nd innings, Sydney turned into a verry good spin track.

Bhajji was very good on that tour overall except Centurion.Took 7 in Cape Town in next Test.Herath is a class spinner.

The track sures aids spin and bounce but still you have to be good.It cant make any spinner look good.See the figures of SA spinners in those matches.

As for this pitch,it wasnt a patta in first innings for sure.Ashwin himself said in interview on first day that it had turn and bounce.He got Warner with one turning sharply off the pitch too.Both him and Lyon should have bowled better imo,though Lyon didnt have any lefties to bowl to.

 

[Saurav]

Ideal Lineup for overseas:

KL Rahul/any technically correct batsman if Rahul turns out to be too raw for international cricket in good pitches
Vijay
Pujara/any technically correct bat if you want Pujara out....no Rohit
Kohli
Rahane
Saha/any WK bat
Ashwin
Jaddu
Pacer 1
Pacer 2
Pacer 3

agreed but only on turning pitches(or pitches which turn big from 4th day)

On patta 4 pacers is must.

On greentops maybe extra batsman can be added but still I feel one seam allrounder like Rishi would be better

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Bhajji was very good on that tour overall except Centurion.Took 7 in Cape Town in next Test.Herath is a class spinner.

The track sures aids spin and bounce but still you have to be good.It cant make any spinner look good.See the figures of SA spinners in those matches.

As for this pitch,it wasnt a patta in first innings for sure.Ashwin himself said in interview on first day that it had turn and bounce.He got Warner with one turning sharply off the pitch too.Both him and Lyon should have bowled better imo,though Lyon didnt have any lefties to bowl to.

Bhajji was good ON THAT TOUR.

Do you think Bhajji was dropped from the Indian side just bcos he had a bad England away tour?

Bhajji was on thin ice quite a while. That's why he was the only senior in the team who never took a break when everyone did.

This pitch was a complete patta when Aussies batted. Even Aussie posters say that. it had a bit of life for spinners but not much. As you know, very slow, very minimal spin does not equate to good bowling track.

 

[Saurav]

I would like to try Axar too.Him and Kuldeep must be tried vs Ban/Zim imo

 

[EliteCynic]

Yes, yes and YES.

No doubt about it.

But we must have other spinners too ready. Don't want Ashwin to get a free ride if he isn't upto the mark.

In this series, he has been pretty good IMHO.

Ok, I rest my case SIF. We can agree to disagree. I don't think he is our no. 1 spinner. I think he already has been given a free ride and hasn't been up to the mark.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

agreed but only on turning pitches(or pitches which turn big from 4th day)

On patta 4 pacers is must.

On greentops maybe extra batsman can be added but still I feel one seam allrounder like Rishi would be better

Absolutely not.

We don't have 4 good pacers.

Even after this series, you say this....

First let's have 3 pacers doing well and then let's think about 4 pacers.

As for greentops, even they ease out these days.

If we had 2 spinners in Durban, we could have bowled SA out faster.
If we had 2 spinners in Lords, Ashwin would have snared all the lefties like a piece of cake in 2nd innings and we wouldn't have got a scare.
If we had 2 spinners in Adelaide (Ashwin and Jaddu), we could have actually done some serious damage.
If we had 2 spinners in Sydney, we could have been in a real position of strength.
If we had 2 spinners in Joberg, we wouldn't have leaked so many runs and maybe won it after a few crucial run outs.

2 spinners + 3 pacers are the way to go.

 

[EliteCynic]

I would like to try Axar too.Him and Kuldeep must be tried vs Ban/Zim imo

Kuldeep is now injured and that is my main worry. Guy should be fast tracked ASAP. I think they would give Parvez Rasool or Bhajji a go.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ok, I rest my case SIF. We can agree to disagree. I don't think he is our no. 1 spinner. I think he already has been given a free ride and hasn't been up to the mark.

Ok.

Ashwin bowled better than Karn in Aus.
In England, many posters here feel Ashwin bowled better than Jaddu.

Let someone better than Ash come and we will see.

 

[IndianWillow]

I was talking about his over all figures abroad which now reads 9 matches, 24 wickets, Av 56.58 and SR 104.2 and those are seriously not good for your No 1 spinner. I know he has improved in the last couple of tests and has bowled beautifully, but I think it is time we think beyond him.

As if we had a lot of choice. Let another spinner take 100 wickets in 18 tests (at least at home) and then let us talk about thinking beyond Ashwin. The third fastest player to achieve the double of 1000 runs and 100 wickets is now being challenged for a spot in the team? Good luck with that.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Kuldeep is now injured and that is my main worry. Guy should be fast tracked ASAP. I think they would give Parvez Rasool or Bhajji a go.

There is a reason why spinners are asked to do the hard yards in domestic cricket.

Parvez Rasool can be a good option soon.

 

[Saurav]

Bhajji was good ON THAT TOUR.

Do you think Bhajji was dropped from the Indian side just bcos he had a bad England away tour?

Bhajji was on thin ice quite a while. That's why he was the only senior in the team who never took a break when everyone did.

This pitch was a complete patta when Aussies batted. Even Aussie posters say that. it had a bit of life for spinners but not much. As you know, very slow, very minimal spin does not equate to good bowling track.

Yeah and I am talking about that tour only.We are not talking about Bhajji's career are we?He was mainly dropped bcoz he couldnt do well at home too.But he was good in SA(and NZ for that matter)

This pitch was patta for pacers ofcourse,but there was turn.For a first day track it helped spin surely

 

[Saurav]

Absolutely not.

We don't have 4 good pacers.

Even after this series, you say this....

First let's have 3 pacers doing well and then let's think about 4 pacers.

As for greentops, even they ease out these days.

If we had 2 spinners in Durban, we could have bowled SA out faster.
If we had 2 spinners in Lords, Ashwin would have snared all the lefties like a piece of cake in 2nd innings and we wouldn't have got a scare.
If we had 2 spinners in Adelaide (Ashwin and Jaddu), we could have actually done some serious damage.
If we had 2 spinners in Sydney, we could have been in a real position of strength.
If we had 2 spinners in Joberg, we wouldn't have leaked so many runs and maybe won it after a few crucial run outs.

2 spinners + 3 pacers are the way to go.

yeah but all those expect JoBurg helped turn.

At Joberg extra seamer would have helped us more.

Ishant,Bhuvi,Umesh,Aaron are 4 good pacers with Shami as backup.There are some good ones in FC too.Dont go by pattas in these series where even MJ,Harris looked ordinary

 

[Saurav]

Kuldeep is now injured and that is my main worry. Guy should be fast tracked ASAP. I think they would give Parvez Rasool or Bhajji a go.

Bhajji is finished.Rasool can be tried,he can bat too

 

[EliteCynic]

As if we had a lot of choice. Let another spinner take 100 wickets in 18 tests (at least at home) and then let us talk about thinking beyond Ashwin. The third fastest player to achieve the double of 1000 runs and 100 wickets is now being challenged for a spot in the team? Good luck with that.

That is the biggest problem. His home stats and his average. Highly misleading. Agreed he bowled well at home and our tests next year are all at home, so Ashwin cannot be removed. But his away record has been a DISASTER and that is my main problem. Now, please don't compare him with other spinners. If he is miles ahead at home, then he should be miles ahead away too. I sincerely think and hope VK takes a bold stand and drops him. We might take the hit initially, but for the long haul, it would be good.

 

[EliteCynic]

Ok.

Ashwin bowled better than Karn in Aus.
In England, many posters here feel Ashwin bowled better than Jaddu.

Let someone better than Ash come and we will see.

1 test vs 6 tests. Seriously bro?
similarly many posters feel Jaddu bowled MUCH better in SA than Ash. If your bowler can't take a wicket defending 450, I would be seriously worried.

 

[trogger]

Can't believe there is still debate amongst indians with regards ashwin, he's your best spinner and the best number 8 in test cricket, he plays every test as far as i can see and he should have played every match on the england and aussie test tours.

He is going to be a lot like kumble, give him a decent run away from home and he will improve immensely.

 

[EliteCynic]

There is a reason why spinners are asked to do the hard yards in domestic cricket.

Parvez Rasool can be a good option soon.

Kuldeep got hit in the thumb during the first Ranji game for UP.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Kuldeep got hit in the thumb during the first Ranji game for UP.

Fine....he is a great natural talent. Should have a season or two domestics and then be judged IMHO.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

yeah but all those expect JoBurg helped turn.

At Joberg extra seamer would have helped us more.

Ishant,Bhuvi,Umesh,Aaron are 4 good pacers with Shami as backup.There are some good ones in FC too.Dont go by pattas in these series where even MJ,Harris looked ordinary

Its better to go with 2 spinners and be wrong sometimes than with 4 pacers and wonder why we didn't have 2 spinners.

Its not about looking ordinary. its about spraying the ball. Aussie pacers didn't do it.

We just don't have 4 quality pacers.

When our 3 pacers start doing consistently well, then we can think about 4 pacers.

 

[Saurav]

Its better to go with 2 spinners and be wrong sometimes than with 4 pacers and wonder why we didn't have 2 spinners.

Its not about looking ordinary. its about spraying the ball. Aussie pacers didn't do it.

We just don't have 4 quality pacers.

When our 3 pacers start doing consistently well, then we can think about 4 pacers.

Well except Ishant all of them are young,so they get frustrated easily and try too much.We missed a fully fit Bhuvi too.

3 of those plus a seam allrounder is better than spinner on non-spin tracks imo.Even if they spray it around,they'll have better chance of taking wickets than spinners

 

[IndianWillow]

That is the biggest problem. His home stats and his average. Highly misleading. Agreed he bowled well at home and our tests next year are all at home, so Ashwin cannot be removed. But his away record has been a DISASTER and that is my main problem. Now, please don't compare him with other spinners. If he is miles ahead at home, then he should be miles ahead away too. I sincerely think and hope VK takes a bold stand and drops him. We might take the hit initially, but for the long haul, it would be good.

Was this true of Kumble too?

 

[IndianWillow]

Can't believe there is still debate amongst indians with regards ashwin, he's your best spinner and the best number 8 in test cricket, he plays every test as far as i can see and he should have played every match on the england and aussie test tours.

He is going to be a lot like kumble, give him a decent run away from home and he will improve immensely.

Yes, I cannot actually believe the extent of underrating Ashwin gets. I think some of the Indians here think that there will be a miraculous bowler out of the blue who will average 30 outside Asia. This is the Indian spin record in Australia, England and SA combined since 1980.

Kumble 130 wickets 32 matches avg 36.77 S/R 78.2
Shastri 32 wickets 18 matches avg 42.21 S/R 108
Bhajji 41 wickets 13 matches avg 48 S/R 85.7
Ashwin 24 wickets 9 matches avg 56.4 S/R 104

Not a single Indian bowler has managed a sub 35 average inspite of playing full career, but some how Ashwin is expected to beat them all in his first 2-3 years. Ashwin just needs more exposure bowling in these conditions. If you keep changing your front line spinner every 10 matches, not a single spinner is going to average sub 50 in these conditions. At the 15 match overseas mark, I expect Ashwin's average to improve to sub 40 or even the 35 mark, but he will not go below that outside Asia. But if India brings in another spinner they will be going through the hoop again, and will be seeing Karn Sharma's one after the other. If we also consider Ashwin's batting he leaves behind every one else in the dust.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

1 test vs 6 tests. Seriously bro?
similarly many posters feel Jaddu bowled MUCH better in SA than Ash. If your bowler can't take a wicket defending 450, I would be seriously worried.

Many posters feel Jaddu bowled better than Ash in SA (Joberg vs Durban).

The same posters feel Ash bowled better than Jaddu in England.

And EVERYONE feels Ash bowled better in Gabba (non spin) than Karn in Adelaide (big spin 2nd innings).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yes, I cannot actually believe the extent of underrating Ashwin gets. I think some of the Indians here think that there will be a miraculous bowler out of the blue who will average 30 outside Asia. This is the Indian spin record in Australia, England and SA combined since 1980.

Kumble 130 wickets 32 matches avg 36.77 S/R 78.2
Shastri 32 wickets 18 matches avg 42.21 S/R 108
Bhajji 41 wickets 13 matches avg 48 S/R 85.7
Ashwin 24 wickets 9 matches avg 56.4 S/R 104

Not a single Indian bowler has managed a sub 35 average inspite of playing full career, but some how Ashwin is expected to beat them all in his first 2-3 years. Ashwin just needs more exposure bowling in these conditions. If you keep changing your front line spinner every 10 matches, not a single spinner is going to average sub 50 in these conditions. At the 15 match overseas mark, I expect Ashwin's average to improve to sub 40 or even the 35 mark, but he will not go below that outside Asia. But if India brings in another spinner they will be going through the hoop again, and will be seeing Karn Sharma's one after the other. If we also consider Ashwin's batting he leaves behind every one else in the dust.

And Ashwin's 56 average involves playing some of the biggest pattas.

SRT scored 6 centuries in Aus in 5 tours.
Kohli scored 4 centuries in this tour alone.

These are the pitches Ash is bowling in. )

 

[Mamoon]

Ashwin is quality player in my opinion and I would swap him with Babar and Yasir in a heartbeat.

 

[EliteCynic]

Yes, I cannot actually believe the extent of underrating Ashwin gets. I think some of the Indians here think that there will be a miraculous bowler out of the blue who will average 30 outside Asia. This is the Indian spin record in Australia, England and SA combined since 1980.

Kumble 130 wickets 32 matches avg 36.77 S/R 78.2
Shastri 32 wickets 18 matches avg 42.21 S/R 108
Bhajji 41 wickets 13 matches avg 48 S/R 85.7
Ashwin 24 wickets 9 matches avg 56.4 S/R 104

Not a single Indian bowler has managed a sub 35 average inspite of playing full career, but some how Ashwin is expected to beat them all in his first 2-3 years. Ashwin just needs more exposure bowling in these conditions. If you keep changing your front line spinner every 10 matches, not a single spinner is going to average sub 50 in these conditions. At the 15 match overseas mark, I expect Ashwin's average to improve to sub 40 or even the 35 mark, but he will not go below that outside Asia. But if India brings in another spinner they will be going through the hoop again, and will be seeing Karn Sharma's one after the other. If we also consider Ashwin's batting he leaves behind every one else in the dust.

Fair point. I take it. My only point is, when we are so harsh against FTB's, I think we should level some criticism on Ashwin as well for being able to bowl well only on helpful tracks. Kumble and Bhajji at least made sure they don't leak as much as Ash, if they are not giving runs.

 

[EliteCynic]

Ashwin is quality player in my opinion and I would swap him with Babar and Yasir in a heartbeat.

Yes, but I want him to be a quality spin bowler like Herath. If he scores 25 less runs but takes 3 more wickets every match, i would happily take it.

 

[EliteCynic]

Fair point. I take it. My only point is, when we are so harsh against FTB's, I think we should level some criticism on Ashwin as well for being able to bowl well only on helpful tracks. Kumble and Bhajji at least made sure they don't leak as much as Ash, if they are not giving runs.

EDIT - Taking wickets.