How the racist quota system works in Pakistan

[endymion248]

It's easy, they just pick it up speaking with us in Urdu, or watching TV which is mostly in Urdu, or they watch Bollywood which is also in Hindi/Urdu. They also have to learn it starting in pre-school, we've systemized the indoctrination process, it's going smoothly so far.

And all this takes an effort on their part. It's not natural like learning a language from one's parents.

 

[Deosai]

That's just an euphemism for "We imposed our language on everyone else".

By the way, the difference is that French is an independent language while Urdu's authors like to flock towards Farsi when they need to express a complex idea

It's still urdu. Urdu should be developed into a complete scientific language like German is, the govt should develop it, so it becomes more refined than Hindi and diverges from it.

 

[Deosai]

And all this takes an effort on their part. It's not natural like learning a language from one's parents.

Bilingulaism is natural in Pakistan. People here naturally oscillate between Urdu,English and whatever regional language they speak, it's really effortless. You don't understand how much "talunt" Pakistanis have

 

[endymion248]

It's still urdu. Urdu should be developed into a complete scientific language like German is, the govt should develop it, so it becomes more refined than Hindi and diverges from it.

If it's still Urdu, the average Urdu-speaker should be able to understand it, should he not? But you can't understand Iqbal's Farsi without speaking Farsi.

And I don't think that kind of stuff works. Languages are just sophisticated or not through natural centuries/millenias long growth.

 

[Deosai]

If it's still Urdu, the average Urdu-speaker should be able to understand it, should he not? But you can't understand Iqbal's Farsi without speaking Farsi.

And I don't think that kind of stuff works. Languages are just sophisticated or not through natural centuries/millenias long growth.

Then you haven't met any old urdu-speakers, or people who are fluent in it. Just listen to Zaid Hamid and his grasp of urdu, he has no trouble understanding farsi parts, there many people like him here. One thing i hear often from people from Punjab that move here is that "karachiites speak 'too much' urdu" or use "too many urdu words" , hell i've heard Lahoris tell Karachiites to "speak urdu not farsi" (cause they can't discern pure urdu).

 

[Syed1]

It's still urdu. Urdu should be developed into a complete scientific language like German is, the govt should develop it, so it becomes more refined than Hindi and diverges from it.

Urdu although very similar to Hindi is spoken in a very different manner. It is a lot more "respectful" and sweeter.

When I talk to my Indian/Bangla friends in Urdu they are always like why are you giving us so much "ijjat"..

 

[endymion248]

Then you haven't met any old urdu-speakers, or people who are fluent in it. Just listen to Zaid Hamid and his grasp of urdu, he has no trouble understanding farsi parts, there many people like him here. One thing i hear often from people from Punjab that move here is that "karachiites speak 'too much' urdu" or use "too many urdu words" , hell i've heard Lahoris tell Karachiites to "speak urdu not farsi" (cause they can't discern pure urdu).

But I'm not talking about Farsi words in Urdu. Compare Iqbal's early life Urdu poetry and late life Farsi poetry and you will see that they are not the same. Unless, of course, Iqbal didn't speak "pure Urdu". Urdu, even old Urdu, is definitely distinct from Farsi. If people like Zaid Hamid understand Farsi, it is because they know Dari and are familiar with other language of Persian family like Balochi and Pashto. A family of which, by the way, Urdu is not a part.

 

[Syed1]

Then you haven't met any old urdu-speakers, or people who are fluent in it. Just listen to Zaid Hamid and his grasp of urdu, he has no trouble understanding farsi parts, there many people like him here. One thing i hear often from people from Punjab that move here is that "karachiites speak 'too much' urdu" or use "too many urdu words" , hell i've heard Lahoris tell Karachiites to "speak urdu not farsi" (cause they can't discern pure urdu).

I've had the same complaint, common Urdu lingo words like "lehaza", "baqool" and "albatta" go over their head..

 

[Deosai]

But I'm not talking about Farsi words in Urdu. Compare Iqbal's early life Urdu poetry and late life Farsi poetry and you will see that they are not the same. Unless, of course, Iqbal didn't speak "pure Urdu". Urdu, even old Urdu, is definitely distinct from Farsi. If people like Zaid Hamid understand Farsi, it is because they know Dari and are familiar with other language of Persian family like Balochi and Pashto. A family of which, by the way, Urdu is not a part.

Never called Urdu the same as farsi loool, it's different tho distantly related. My point is that if you think native Urdu-speakers don't understand every word spoken on the PTV Khabarnaama or can't understand pure urdu poetry then you're mistaken, tho you're right about people of my generation.

ZH is nothing special in his Urdu diction, it's the norm for educated native Urdu speakers. It used to be common for older generation Urdu speakers to learn some Dari since it used to be the official language & even regarded as the second language of Islam until recently, also many older people learnt it to improve their diction.

 

[endymion248]

Never called Urdu the same as farsi loool, it's different tho distantly related. My point is that if you think native Urdu-speakers don't understand every word spoken on the PTV Khabarnaama or can't understand pure urdu poetry then you're mistaken, tho you're right about people of my generation.

ZH is nothing special in his Urdu diction, it's the norm for educated native Urdu speakers. It used to be common for older generation Urdu speakers to learn some Dari since it used to be the official language & even regarded as the second language of Islam until recently, also many older people learnt it to improve their diction.

The debate is about Urdu poets writting in Farsi proper, not using Urdu with complicated Farsi words.

 

[Deosai]

The debate is about Urdu poets writting in Farsi proper, not using Urdu with complicated Farsi words.

I don't know about that. If they write in farsi proper then it's farsi, i don't see what the fuss is.

 

[endymion248]

I don't know about that. If they write in farsi proper then it's farsi, i don't see what the fuss is.

There was no fuss until you said "It's still Urdu"

 

[Slog]

It's quite fallacious for people here to be talking about the quota system benefiting Waderas and not the common Sindhi when you guys are opposed to the very principle of quota system, not its execution. [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION], for example, has made it clear in previous threads that he would also oppose a quota system used for poor Sindhis.

In the same way, the race card being played here is quite strange when the quota is location based.

Also, there is nothing discriminatory about the federal quotas since they merely give proportional quotas to each province. That doesn't mean there is no merit since a person has to compete inside their demographic and can't apply to several demographics at the same time, as opposed to Sindh's quota system.

Quota system in Sindh is designed such that it is ethnic based. Sindhi Karachiites can apply as both from Karachi and as people from interior Sindh (interior has much less competition and more seats too) So yes it is a case of race unless you suggest rich non Sindhi Karachiites to start buying land in interior Sindh and putting their address from there. Which again will benefit only the rich

I would support quota system so it is designed as such a way where you cannot cheat the system. Secondly quota systems would be fine if 15-20% of the positions in any given job/institution were quotas and rest on pure merit only. Thats how it works all over the world. What is right now is a farce. Worse even in this farcical circumstances the quota does not represent the population percentage of Karachiites and interior Sindhis.

 

[endymion248]

Quota system in Sindh is designed such that it is ethnic based. Sindhi Karachiites can apply as both from Karachi and as people from interior Sindh (interior has much less competition and more seats too) So yes it is a case of race unless you suggest rich non Sindhi Karachiites to start buying land in interior Sindh and putting their address from there. Which again will benefit only the rich

If there isn't an ethnic criteria then it's not racist in essence, even if it can be in practice. Are karachiites forbidden from moving to Sindh?

I would support quota system so it is designed as such a way where you cannot cheat the system. Secondly quota systems would be fine if 15-20% of the positions in any given job/institution were quotas and rest on pure merit only. Thats how it works all over the world. What is right now is a farce. Worse even in this farcical circumstances the quota does not represent the population percentage of Karachiites and interior Sindhis.

Depends on whether a subgroup can apply to all positions or not. If a Sindhi can be selected outside of Sindh quota then it should only be 10-20%. If not then the quota seats can be even 100%, it doesn't go against merit (assuming proportionality).

BTW, in the previous thread, you said that you didn't support quota system under any form because it's unfair to middle class Urdu speakers.

 

[Slog]

If there isn't an ethnic criteria then it's not racist in essence, even if it can be in practice. Are karachiites forbidden from moving to Sindh?



Depends on whether a subgroup can apply to all positions or not. If a Sindhi can be selected outside of Sindh quota then it should only be 10-20%. If not then the quota seats can be even 100%, it doesn't go against merit (assuming proportionality).

BTW, in the previous thread, you said that you didn't support quota system under any form because it's unfair to middle class Urdu speakers.

You exhibit a very shallow understanding coupled with ignorance which makes the discussion pointless.

As for bolded part i dont support it in any of the current variations where x amount of jobs will go to one group and y will go to the other. I would be open to it if 10-15% or so goes to the under represented specifically and the rest 85-90% are open to everyone and totally on merit. But its not the case now.

 

[endymion248]

You exhibit a very shallow understanding coupled with ignorance which makes the discussion pointless.

As for bolded part i dont support it in any of the current variations where x amount of jobs will go to one group and y will go to the other. I would be open to it if 10-15% or so goes to the under represented specifically and the rest 85-90% are open to everyone and totally on merit. But its not the case now.

It's your inability to correctly argue your point without expecting your reader to make the inexact shortcuts that you hold sacro-sanct that is at fault here.

If the underepresented automatically get a certain portion then the over represented become the underrepresented, as has happened in Karachi but has not happened on the federal level because each province has got their due.

 

[Slog]

It's your inability to correctly argue your point without expecting your reader to make the inexact shortcuts that you hold sacro-sanct that is at fault here.

If the underepresented automatically get a certain portion then the over represented become the underrepresented, as has happened in Karachi but has not happened on the federal level because each province has got their due.

Again showing your lack of understandings. At federal level you think people (apart from the bad Karachiites here)don't have issues? Loll! )

It is your stubbornness to stick to your guns while having little understanding and certainly no experience of the topic in hand which is the problem here.

Any ways to each his own.

 

[endymion248]

Again showing your lack of understandings. At federal level you think people (apart from the bad Karachiites here)don't have issues? Loll! )

It is your stubbornness to stick to your guns while having little understanding and certainly no experience of the topic in hand which is the problem here.

Any ways to each his own.

They may have issues but they are wrong to have them (as opposed to the regional level where they are legitimate).

 

[Deosai]

Are karachiites forbidden from moving to Sindh?

Why would somebody move from a big vibrant city to some poor desert town? Also it would be somewhat difficult for a Karachiite to buy land from the Waderas and the Dacoits, they would try harassing and 'scaring' off any 'outsiders' from buying land there. If there's a land mafia in Khi, there's also a land mafia all over Pakistan.

 

[endymion248]

Why would somebody move from a big vibrant city to some poor desert town? Also it would be somewhat difficult for a Karachiite to buy land from the Waderas and the Dacoits, they would try harassing and 'scaring' off any 'outsiders' from buying land there. If there's a land mafia in Khi, there's also a land mafia all over Pakistan.

Then shouldn't the person actually living in the poor desert town and not moving to the big vibrant city be lauded and helped to account for the disavdvantage of living in a poor desert?

 

[MenInG]

So this strange thing is still in existence?

 

[sweep_shot]

Quota system is illogical and discriminatory. Selections should be based on merit.