How the spin greats Warne and Murali performed against Indian batting

[Ag78]

Saw this clip the other day. There's a big difference. Not sure if people have noticed this much. Indians certainly had the best batting against spin when these two played.

 

[Ag78]

I remember Saqlain had a great series against IND in the late 90s. Ajantha Mendis in his first series was awesome against a solid batting line up.

 

[Hitman]

I remember Saqlain had a great series against IND in the late 90s. Ajantha Mendis in his first series was awesome against a solid batting line up.

Saqlain averaged 20 in that series, if my memory serves me right. That was a better performance by him than Mendis who played the series you mentioned at home.

 

[Junaids]

This thread is deceptive.

It claims to be about the two greatest spinners, but I can’t see anything about Jim Laker at all.

 

[Junaids]

No mention of Captain Hedley Verity either. The third best spinner behind Laker and Warne, but the greatest man ever to play cricket.

 

[BaankeJi]

No mention of Captain Hedley Verity either. The third best spinner behind Laker and Warne, but the greatest man ever to play cricket.

Where did he play cricket - In his backyard?

 

[pratiktc]

Murali's record is only poor compared to his own career record. Otherwise he has bowled some good spells in India.

Legspinners generally get thrashed by India. Qadir failed, Warne failed.

Benaud has a vgood record but that was against minnow level team

 

[andy0204]

Murali's record is only poor compared to his own career record. Otherwise he has bowled some good spells in India.

Legspinners generally get thrashed by India. Qadir failed, Warne failed.

Benaud has a vgood record but that was against minnow level team

Actually Warne did ok in India 2004 series .

 

[andy0204]

Murali's record is only poor compared to his own career record. Otherwise he has bowled some good spells in India.

Legspinners generally get thrashed by India. Qadir failed, Warne failed.

Benaud has a vgood record but that was against minnow level team

Derek Underwood has a good record in India.

 

[Junaids]

Where did he play cricket - In his backyard?

Verity played 3 Tests in India and took 23 wickets at an average of 16.82, and over 70 First Class wickets on that tour of India.

So I’d argue that of the world’s greatest ever spinners, Hedley Verity was the one who bowled best in India.

 

[Junaids]

Where did he play cricket - In his backyard?

Incidentally, Hedley Verity played against all the big teams in India.

The first match, for example, was against Sindh, and he took 6-46 and scored a fifty.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Where did he play cricket - In his backyard?

Lol.

That's Junaid.

But Verity was a fine spinner and (I suspect this is where Junaid's seeming colonial hangover comes to the fore) a decorated world war two hero.

 

[MMHS]

Verity played 3 Tests in India and took 23 wickets at an average of 16.82, and over 70 First Class wickets on that tour of India.

So I’d argue that of the world’s greatest ever spinners, Hedley Verity was the one who bowled best in India.

As usual, your every information is missing few key context here. Verity played against India when India was in its colonial days, first decade of entry in Test cricket and few amateurs playing cricket as part-time hobby. There is a little difference about bowling against India in 1990-00s and 1930s.

Obviously, in that regards, Syd Barnes is the greatest ever pacer after taking 84 wickets in 7 Tests at 9, against a SAF team that were bowled out in a day twice few times in that era, though his Ashes average is 21, when average of 20 was considered high (only one batsman averaging over 55 then and no other batsman averaged over 40 that time, only 2 other over 35 - Clem Hill & Vic Trumper).

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
Don’t forget that Hedley Verity also took 11 wickets at 24.65 in the Bodyline series, which was second behind Larwood in the most famous cricket series ever played.

In fact his captain - the greatest Indian captain of all time, beyond any argument - eulogised Verity as the greatest slow left-armer in cricket history.

That is an amazing accolade from the greatest Indian cricket captain the world has ever seen.....which Douglas Jardine clearly was.

 

[Captain caveman]

If anyone argues against murali and warnie being the greatest spin bowlers of all time, i would question their knowledge of cricket!

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
Don’t forget that Hedley Verity also took 11 wickets at 24.65 in the Bodyline series, which was second behind Larwood in the most famous cricket series ever played.

In fact his captain - the greatest Indian captain of all time, beyond any argument - eulogised Verity as the greatest slow left-armer in cricket history.

That is an amazing accolade from the greatest Indian cricket captain the world has ever seen.....which Douglas Jardine clearly was.

Let me try to answer your posts here one by one. First of all, among the greatest two spinners, Laker & Verity doesn't come simply because they were not in that class - no disrespect to either of them. Laker had outstanding figures because of playing weaker opponents of spin - IND-PAK was new in 1940s-50s, SAF was never that good, while Kiwis were absolute shambolic in that decade. Against AUS, his stats are massively over inflated for one particular series with 46 wickets at <10, more preciously one Test at Old Traford with 19 wickets. Excluding that, his career average against AUS was around 29. In that decade, the best spin playing country was WIN, and he had an average of 30+ against them. British media hypes their player shamelessly and a true reflection of that is their former cricketers.

Coming to Verity - no, he was as ordinary as it can be against AUS in that 1932-33 Ashes. If you want to place him among greats based on that series, I'll have to disappoint you - this is based on data points, not considering that Cricket was joke those days and some of the modern Ladies team'll blank both sides of that Ashes. Every game evolves with time - it can't happen that Tennis Superstars of 1930s like Budge, Perry looked like comic reliefs, soccer games looked like Kabadi (almost 12-13 people running at same ball, without much of any organization or structure), while cricket was like .... you know. But, I don't go to comparison between eras - they were equally greats like modern players as they were best of their time and Bradman is greatest, because he was almost twice the player to his second best of the generation.

Coming to data point - Veriti's 1932-33 Ashes exactly reflects your English thought process regarding spinners. He had 11 wickets in 4 Tests, 8 of those in last Test on a dry SCG wicket at the end of the summer and was almost a passenger for rest of the tour. Even then, out of his 11 wickets, 3 came in first innings at average of 56 .... played in a different era, so his economy was envying, but that comes with a negative stats as well - Strike Rate of 146 in first innings!!!! That's the fundamental difference with these two guys mentioned here and any English spinner - Murali & Warne ran through sides on Day ONE of Test matches, on perfect batting conditions and set up the game from up side down. He was a contemporary great and admired by Sir Don - but, please don't use his 1932-32 Ashes "heroics", to defame Murali or Warne - it's blasphemous for cricket enthusiasts.

Coming to Jardin, I have two problems - one is that he was born at Malabar Hills, so you can call him Indian, but not sure who ranks him as the greatest ever Indian Captain. This is new knowledge to me - I would tend to believe that Tiger Pataudi, Ganguly & MSD are the best 3 Captains IND has produced ... may be you can add AH Kardar as well, because he was born in undivided British India, but I won't argue - may be.... but I would like to see the source of your argument in this regard though.

Now, coming to what or whom Jardin rates ...... it has very little to do with the subject matter here.

I tell you a story - my Granddad was a Muslim Leaguer (Politician), a land lord and a proud man. He had a grand possession - 1961 model Toyota sedan, which till his last day (early 1990s), he claimed to be the best thing since Jesus was crucified. I actually had driven that thing somehow once and by the end of it's life (it's still resting in peace, in our village house - papa decided not to junk it), it needed two guys to push for starting ..... Now, my Granddad had four grand child from his two sons - eldest one living in Toronto, the other 3 in USA at NY, LA & Chicago. And, all 4 of them fortunately owns a car as well - the Toronto one has a 2018 Lexus RX350, his younger sis in NY recently has bought a BMW X7; their cousin, the Chicago resident one owns a Mercedes Bluetec, and the LA one is the youngest, owns an Audi Q7. All 4 of those had seen and ridden their Grandpa's Toyota 1964, highly praised (& rated to be the best ever) by their beloved grandpa as well ..... though, I am sure their experience and opinion about cars will be a bit different from their grandpa.

Jardin saw Verity at their prime, and he was his main spinner - may his soul rest in peace since 1958 and I don't blame him to rate/praise Verity highly; but don't you think it's a bit foolish to use him as reference, to sell Headley Verity almost 9 decades later?

 

[Ag78]

Muralitharan produced big spells against India at different times in his career. That's what's impressive about him. Even in his last Test, that 5-for in the first innings was crucial to open up the game when India looked good to save the Test with a bit of rain around, although people remember that Test mainly for him finishing with 800.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

These two ATGs' bowled to (arguably) the 90s-00s greatest batting line-up against spin.

SRT, Dravid, VVS, Ganguly and Sehwag: all 5 of them are lethal against spin bowling.

lols @ Warne tho. Afridi was a better Test and ODI leggie in India

 

[Swashbuckler]

Murali averaged almost 46 in India in 11 tests, but did well in Sri Lanka and won a couple of matches for his team. Warne was a liability against India everywhere in both formats, those days I would eagerly wait for him to be given the ball and never understood the hype around him. In warm up FC fixtures he would get severe beating at the hands of our domestic players as well. Our game against spin has fallen a lot in the last 8-9 years with only Pujara being at the level of fab 5.

But anyone disputing the status of Warne and Murali as the joint greatest spinners is just trolling or in a parallel universe. I am fine if someone questions the legality of Murali's action but how can anyone question his impact on the sport? No player not even Viv, Imran, Kohli or Steyn has been as prolific a match winner as the Lankan, that he did all this for a weak and poor bowling side during an era when his community was under fire because of the civil war makes it even more remarkable.

 

[RamLakhan]

It is the finger spinners who trouble Indian Batsmen on Indian Wickets as they can work out on the bounce and rough patches better!

 

[Ab Fan]

Murali has a good record vs Indian batters in Sri Lanka but it's mediocre in India(40+ avg).

Murali and Warne both are legends but Indian batters always outsmarted them particularly at home conditions.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Haha Jim laker being mentioned on the same level as these two is laughable, pretentious nonsense . Great bowler but his stats are massively inflated by the shocking dustbowls he played on in the English pitches of those days. The spinner who belongs in the conversation with Warne and Murali is Australia's bill O'Reilly from the 40s. Laker is a tier below.

On the topic, I would say murali definitely bowled much better than Warne against the great Indian sides. He bowled several great spells against them at home. In fact India never were able to win a series in sl during his peak. Even in India, even though murali and Warnes averages may look similar, Murali did produce one legendary spell in 2005 (I think at feroz shah Kotla) when he induced a massive collapse and picked up 7 wickets. He bowled Dhoni with one of the most amazing doosras I have ever seen, not sure how many people remember this

 

[Robert]

Haha Jim laker being mentioned on the same level as these two is laughable, pretentious nonsense . Great bowler but his stats are massively inflated by the shocking dustbowls he played on in the English pitches of those days. The spinner who belongs in the conversation with Warne and Murali is Australia's bill O'Reilly from the 40s. Laker is a tier below.

Interesting that Richardson and the Rev. David Shephard got centuries on the OT wicket you refer to, facing Benaud who took 2-123, and Lock got no wickets in the match, so maybe it was something to do with Laker after all?

The Oval also took spin, but not every wicklet was a dustbowl - consider that the biggest wicket-takers of the fifties were Trueman and Statham.

No mention of Captain Hedley Verity either. The third best spinner behind Laker and Warne, but the greatest man ever to play cricket.

And Johnny Wardle, who was kept out by Laker and Lock despite being arguably better than either.

 

[Hyperion66]

Not sure why people are discussing prehistoric bowlers, this is not a paleontology thread.

 

[CanadianG00se]

Not sure why people are discussing prehistoric bowlers, this is not a paleontology thread.

Oldies like to gloat about players from dinosaur era where every players were far supreme to current ones.
I highly doubt any of those players would even keep up with fast paced game we have today.

 

[Robert]

Not sure why people are discussing prehistoric bowlers, this is not a paleontology thread.

Knowledge and understanding.

Warne and Murali were the greatest spinners of the modern era. But a champion would be a champion in any era. Move Warne into 1930 and he would have been in competition with O’Reilly, and vice versa. But move Murali into 1930 and he would be driven out of the game for chucking. No biomechanics labs then.

 

[pratiktc]

Move Warne into 1930 and he would probably have never been picked for Aus due to his womanizing and off field shenanigans.

Leave black and white cricket to black and white age. Game was different then.

Murali and Warne are the greatest spinners period. They have proven their skill over time, geographies and in multiple scenarios. These are indisputable.

Some bowlers from b&w era may have been very skilled and could possibly have operated at close to W/M level. But to contend that they are miles better is laughable.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India had great players of spin bowling in the 90s. But Sehwag took it to another level. He ripped Murali to shreds. Murali is averaging like 145 against Sehwag. At Wankehede he faced like 70 odd balls from Murali and scored 70 dd runs during his 293.

 

[Junaids]

Knowledge and understanding.

Warne and Murali were the greatest spinners of the modern era. But a champion would be a champion in any era. Move Warne into 1930 and he would have been in competition with O’Reilly, and vice versa. But move Murali into 1930 and he would be driven out of the game for chucking. No biomechanics labs then.

You’re being far too generous. Murali is just a footnote of history, in the same category as Lance Armstrong and Ben Johnson.

He has no place in a discussion about cricket.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Let me try to answer your posts here one by one. First of all, among the greatest two spinners, Laker & Verity doesn't come simply because they were not in that class - no disrespect to either of them. Laker had outstanding figures because of playing weaker opponents of spin - IND-PAK was new in 1940s-50s, SAF was never that good, while Kiwis were absolute shambolic in that decade. Against AUS, his stats are massively over inflated for one particular series with 46 wickets at <10, more preciously one Test at Old Traford with 19 wickets. Excluding that, his career average against AUS was around 29. In that decade, the best spin playing country was WIN, and he had an average of 30+ against them. British media hypes their player shamelessly and a true reflection of that is their former cricketers.

Coming to Verity - no, he was as ordinary as it can be against AUS in that 1932-33 Ashes. If you want to place him among greats based on that series, I'll have to disappoint you - this is based on data points, not considering that Cricket was joke those days and some of the modern Ladies team'll blank both sides of that Ashes. Every game evolves with time - it can't happen that Tennis Superstars of 1930s like Budge, Perry looked like comic reliefs, soccer games looked like Kabadi (almost 12-13 people running at same ball, without much of any organization or structure), while cricket was like .... you know. But, I don't go to comparison between eras - they were equally greats like modern players as they were best of their time and Bradman is greatest, because he was almost twice the player to his second best of the generation.

Coming to data point - Veriti's 1932-33 Ashes exactly reflects your English thought process regarding spinners. He had 11 wickets in 4 Tests, 8 of those in last Test on a dry SCG wicket at the end of the summer and was almost a passenger for rest of the tour. Even then, out of his 11 wickets, 3 came in first innings at average of 56 .... played in a different era, so his economy was envying, but that comes with a negative stats as well - Strike Rate of 146 in first innings!!!! That's the fundamental difference with these two guys mentioned here and any English spinner - Murali & Warne ran through sides on Day ONE of Test matches, on perfect batting conditions and set up the game from up side down. He was a contemporary great and admired by Sir Don - but, please don't use his 1932-32 Ashes "heroics", to defame Murali or Warne - it's blasphemous for cricket enthusiasts.

Coming to Jardin, I have two problems - one is that he was born at Malabar Hills, so you can call him Indian, but not sure who ranks him as the greatest ever Indian Captain. This is new knowledge to me - I would tend to believe that Tiger Pataudi, Ganguly & MSD are the best 3 Captains IND has produced ... may be you can add AH Kardar as well, because he was born in undivided British India, but I won't argue - may be.... but I would like to see the source of your argument in this regard though.

Now, coming to what or whom Jardin rates ...... it has very little to do with the subject matter here.

I tell you a story - my Granddad was a Muslim Leaguer (Politician), a land lord and a proud man. He had a grand possession - 1961 model Toyota sedan, which till his last day (early 1990s), he claimed to be the best thing since Jesus was crucified. I actually had driven that thing somehow once and by the end of it's life (it's still resting in peace, in our village house - papa decided not to junk it), it needed two guys to push for starting ..... Now, my Granddad had four grand child from his two sons - eldest one living in Toronto, the other 3 in USA at NY, LA & Chicago. And, all 4 of them fortunately owns a car as well - the Toronto one has a 2018 Lexus RX350, his younger sis in NY recently has bought a BMW X7; their cousin, the Chicago resident one owns a Mercedes Bluetec, and the LA one is the youngest, owns an Audi Q7. All 4 of those had seen and ridden their Grandpa's Toyota 1964, highly praised (& rated to be the best ever) by their beloved grandpa as well ..... though, I am sure their experience and opinion about cars will be a bit different from their grandpa.

Jardin saw Verity at their prime, and he was his main spinner - may his soul rest in peace since 1958 and I don't blame him to rate/praise Verity highly; but don't you think it's a bit foolish to use him as reference, to sell Headley Verity almost 9 decades later?

Good reply.

I will say that you took him too seriously in responding to the Jardine / Indian captain comment- the guy trolls. Next he'll be saying that Kipling was a better subcontinental writer than Premchand or Ghalib.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Courtesy: The greatest batsman against spinners.

 

[andy0204]

View attachment 96876

Courtesy: The greatest batsman against spinners.

Azharuddin Sidhu says hi

 

[Junaids]

Good reply.

I will say that you took him too seriously in responding to the Jardine / Indian captain comment- the guy trolls. Next he'll be saying that Kipling was a better subcontinental writer than Premchand or Ghalib.

I don’t understand your point.

I fully accept that Moeen Ali is English, so by the same token Douglas Jardine was Indian. And if you devise and successfully execute a strategy to chop Bradman’s average in half you are the GOAT captain, without question.

These cases are a delightful result of the modern cosmopolitan world. It’s how Eric Liddle was arguably both the greatest Scotsman and greatest Chinese man in history!

On a more serious note, Jim Laker took almost 2,000 wickets including 193 wickets in 46 Tests at an average of 21.24, without the benefit of DRS. Can you imagine how successful he’d be in the modern world in which off-spinners can get LBW decisions?

 

[WengerOut]

I don’t understand your point.

I fully accept that Moeen Ali is English, so by the same token Douglas Jardine was Indian. And if you devise and successfully execute a strategy to chop Bradman’s average in half you are the GOAT captain, without question.

These cases are a delightful result of the modern cosmopolitan world. It’s how Eric Liddle was arguably both the greatest Scotsman and greatest Chinese man in history!

On a more serious note, Jim Laker took almost 2,000 wickets including 193 wickets in 46 Tests at an average of 21.24, without the benefit of DRS. Can you imagine how successful he’d be in the modern world in which off-spinners can get LBW decisions?

I might be missing the point but DRS only came in 2008 i believe. Warne had retired in 2006 and Murali in 2008 having played only one series. So they did not get the benefit of DRS either.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Azharuddin Sidhu says hi

Dude ,sehwag strikes at 90 against spinners in test,sorry but no comparison he is the GOAT.

 

[Junaids]

I might be missing the point but DRS only came in 2008 i believe. Warne had retired in 2006 and Murali in 2008 having played only one series. So they did not get the benefit of DRS either.

My friend, you ARE missing the point!

Jim Laker had a superior Test bowling record to both Murali and Warne, in spite of none of them being able to easily get LBW’s.

In practice, Murali spun it too far and Warne spun it the wrong way. If DRS had existed the one of the three who would have got 40% more wickets and a big reduction in his average was Jim Laker.

Plus, of course, top order batsmen of his era were technically far superior against spin bowling.

 

[andy0204]

Dude ,sehwag strikes at 90 against spinners in test,sorry but no comparison he is the GOAT.

You haven't watched Azharuddin and Sidhu bat.

 

[Junaids]

You haven't watched Azharuddin and Sidhu bat.

To be fair, neither of them played much Test cricket against high quality spin in difficult conditions.

The only real case during their career span was the loss to Pakistan in the Fifth Test at Bangalore in 1987.

Sidhu was not selected and Azharuddin scored 6 and 26.

I don’t think that ODI runs against spin are worth anything. The bowler can’t bowl his preferred line and the field is set to contain rather than dismiss.

 

[andy0204]

To be fair, neither of them played much Test cricket against high quality spin in difficult conditions.

The only real case during their career span was the loss to Pakistan in the Fifth Test at Bangalore in 1987.

Sidhu was not selected and Azharuddin scored 6 and 26.

I don’t think that ODI runs against spin are worth anything. The bowler can’t bowl his preferred line and the field is set to contain rather than dismiss.

So you are judging only from one match.

 

[MMHS]

I don’t understand your point.

I fully accept that Moeen Ali is English, so by the same token Douglas Jardine was Indian. And if you devise and successfully execute a strategy to chop Bradman’s average in half you are the GOAT captain, without question.

These cases are a delightful result of the modern cosmopolitan world. It’s how Eric Liddle was arguably both the greatest Scotsman and greatest Chinese man in history!

On a more serious note, Jim Laker took almost 2,000 wickets including 193 wickets in 46 Tests at an average of 21.24, without the benefit of DRS. Can you imagine how successful he’d be in the modern world in which off-spinners can get LBW decisions?

Again a little gap - Moeen was born and brought up in UK, and played for England. Jardin was born in India when his dad was posted there, but he was groomed in UK and represented England. If f you start to use that logic, half of your current English team’s achievements will be attributed to other nations.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You haven't watched Azharuddin and Sidhu bat.

I have watched both fo them bat all their career. There is nobody better than Virendar when it comes dominating them left right center. He does that even on a tough pitch. His century at Galle is still one of the best by an Indian against spin.

 

[docteurmanish]

Agreed

Sehwag is the best player of spin along with Lara that I have seen - both had great hand eye and lara on song I felt was better than sehwag just slightly

Second best was laxman I felt - could do anything with the wrists . And Gavaskar .

Sri Lankan players - jayasurya de Silva come after that along with Sachin and dravid

Sidhu and azar were no better than inzi and sohail - good players but not demolyshers

 

[Robert]

Move Warne into 1930 and he would probably have never been picked for Aus due to his womanizing and off field shenanigans.

Leave black and white cricket to black and white age. Game was different then.

Murali and Warne are the greatest spinners period. They have proven their skill over time, geographies and in multiple scenarios. These are indisputable.

Some bowlers from b&w era may have been very skilled and could possibly have operated at close to W/M level. But to contend that they are miles better is laughable.

You think nobody in the thirties ever womanised and had shenanigans?

And you know the world was in colour in those days too, not b/w? That was only films.

I never said Laker was miles better than Warne - I said a champion in one era would be a champion in any era.

 

[andy0204]

I have watched both fo them bat all their career. There is nobody better than Virendar when it comes dominating them left right center. He does that even on a tough pitch. His century at Galle is still one of the best by an Indian against spin.

Agree with you he was better but you and [MENTION=146232]jeeteshssaxena[/MENTION] are claiming he was greatest batsman against the spin that's wrong Gavaskar, Vishwanath and many other players have played spin very well.
He may be the greatest dominating batsman against the spin but not the greatest batsman against the spin.

 

[lifecric7]

Warne was murdered in India even by average bats like Sidhu..Murali is way better then warne in all aspects.i don’t rate warne in tests as he took most of his wickets against clueless Englishmen in ashes.