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Imran Khan or Ian Botham - Who was the better all-rounder?

Imran Khan or Ian Botham - who was the better all-rounder (Tests & LOIs)?

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MenInG

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Remove green/st george tinted glasses and vote on this poll!

Who was the better all-rounder!?
 
Overall, career wise, IK and it’s not even close.

But for one series or one match, Botham is your guy.

No love lost between these two folks as they took it from the pitch to the court.
 
Imran but Botham is one of those rare cricketers who was equally genius in all aspects of the game.

And, he was just too awesome against India or in India.
 
People have doubts about the quality of cricket back then (and this is evident from watching videos of Botham trundling in, though those are mostly from his career's latter half), but these two mostly played at the same time, and there's no way anyone can pick Botham over Imran here.
 
Kapil, Botham, IK are all in the same league. Dev & Botham were dangerous batsmen while Imran was the standout bowler among them. Overall if you have to pick one i guess it comes down to the team balance. Dev clearly takes the spot in any limited overs format over the other 3. Imran's my choice in test cricket due to his bowling. At their best Botham was the most deadliest while when it came to facing the best team of their era Dev beats the other two which is why the 3 are all in the same tier for me. All have unique attributes.
 
IK without a doubt.
He captained Pakistan to a world cup win.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Kapil, Botham, IK are all in the same league. Dev & Botham were dangerous batsmen while Imran was the standout bowler among them. Overall if you have to pick one i guess it comes down to the team balance. Dev clearly takes the spot in any limited overs format over the other 3. Imran's my choice in test cricket due to his bowling. At their best Botham was the most deadliest while when it came to facing the best team of their era Dev beats the other two which is why the 3 are all in the same tier for me. All have unique attributes.
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Over the years Dev was part of strong Indian batting lineups which included Gavasker, Patil, Vengsarkar, Amarnath, Azharuddin, Srikanth, Shastri and later Tendulkar etc. With such accomplished batsmen Dev could play his natural aggressive game. On the other hand Imran for most of his career since 1982 was part of young and inexperienced batting lineups, on most occasions he had to lead by example. Most of the time he had to play in a crisis like his 136 against Australia. But he also had the ability to switch gears and play according to the situation which the other 3 all rounders lacked. Most importantly he helped Pakistan win matches. He took only 7 wickets in the 1987 series in India and made some crucial runs in the 1989 Nehru Cup and on both occasions he was the Man of the Series for his batting and captaincy.
 
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And anyone who has followed his career knows that Imran was a clean striker of the ball. He once took on Ambrose and company at an ODI in Brisbane and I also remember vividly smashing the West Indians at Sharjah in 1991. If he was part of a strong batting unit he might have played more freely like Dev.
 
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Imran and it's not even close.

IK could adapt to the situation with bat and ball. If it was needed to defend, he could grind out and was diffcult to get out. If quick runs were required he could smash the ball to all parts. Similarly with his bowling, he could swing it if conditions were right inc reverse swing and on flat decks bowl very fast with plenty of variations too.
 
It has to be Imran Khan. Having him in the side adds more balance because of his fast bowling ability. A real fast bowling all rounder is better .
 
All around contribution by Botham was higher in his first half of career. He contributed heavily with both skills and he was also a good fielder. He went down hill from there.

IK's over all career was better than Botham. IK had a better career, but if we are talking about some one bringing both skills at the same time in many series then it's Botham for me.
 
IK, Dev and Botham are not in the same league for me as far as their career goes.

IK is the only one here who was an ATG bowler and an ATG all rounder. Dev and Botham were ATG all rounders, but not ATG bowlers.
 
I think Botham was a better Batsman of the two, while Imran was a better Bowler !!!!!!
 
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Imran over a career was a more effective bowler. About equal as batters - one was more a worker who would build an innings and stop the tail being blown away and got better with age, the other could tear any attack apart on his day. Imran was a competent fielder, Botham one of the best slip fielders in history. Imran was a very good leader while Botham’s game fell apart when they made him skipper - ten tests in a row against WI at their peak.

From 1977 to 1982 Botham was unstoppable, about the quickest to 100 and 200 test wickets - but after that various small injuries wore him down. He lost bowling speed and swung it less and started buying wickets. He should not have played tests after the 1987 Ashes, but they kept picking him and a string of poor performances degraded his figures.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Imran and it's not even close.

IK could adapt to the situation with bat and ball. If it was needed to defend, he could grind out and was diffcult to get out.
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Remember when Botham batted all day against Imran, Wasim and Qadir for fifty not out? That was real grinding!
 
Lol, please. Imran's competition is Gary Sobers, not Ian Botham. Any team would love to have a Botham play for them but no team would pick Botham over Imran.
 
Buffet said:
All around contribution by Botham was higher in his first half of career. He contributed heavily with both skills and he was also a good fielder. He went down hill from there.

IK's over all career was better than Botham. IK had a better career, but if we are talking about some one bringing both skills at the same time in many series then it's Botham for me.
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There have only been four ATG all-rounders in cricket: Imran, Sobers, Miller and Kallis.
 
Robert said:
Imran over a career was a more effective bowler. About equal as batters - one was more a worker who would build an innings and stop the tail being blown away and got better with age, the other could tear any attack apart on his day. Imran was a competent fielder, Botham one of the best slip fielders in history. Imran was a very good leader while Botham’s game fell apart when they made him skipper - ten tests in a row against WI at their peak.

From 1977 to 1982 Botham was unstoppable, about the quickest to 100 and 200 test wickets - but after that various small injuries wore him down. He lost bowling speed and swung it less and started buying wickets. He should not have played tests after the 1987 Ashes, but they kept picking him and a string of poor performances degraded his figures.
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To me in peak part of career Botham was arguably the best after Gary Sobers and at his best as a pure match-winer ahead of everyone be it Sobers,Imran or Miller.Has anyone equalled Botham's 1981 Ashes performance or 1981 Jubilee test one.To ressurect a team from the depths of despair to reach the pinnacle of glory Botham was the ultimate cricketer .He could exude energy on a cricket field in the all-round sense nonone could in his era and could create a sensational twist or turn in game whether batting bowling or fielding .His only flaw was under performing v West Indies and being overshadowed when playing against both Kapil Dev and Imran Khan in 2 test series each.

Imran was definitely the better bowler throughout but I would rate Botham marginally better as a batsmen and fielder.Botham could take a bowling attack to the sword more than Imran and pull off more spectacular catches.Imran was more in the defensive mould as a batsmen.What distinguished them mainly was that Botham was at peak with both bat and ball simultaneously while Imran was not at his best with both ball and bat at the same time.In his peak era from 1981-87 he was almost the equal of Botham from 1977-82 but was still more of fast bowing allrounder with ability to bat .Botham would win matches and series equally with ball and bat while Imran was mainly a match-winner as fast bowler. Still Imran outplayed Botham in 1982 and 1987 and played many responsible innings with the bat like in India in 1987.

Not fair to only look at Imran's great batting average of above 50 in his last 8 years as he was not out on several occasions and did not score as many fifties or centuries as Sobers or Botham.Overall Imran is statistically better but Botham overshadows him in matches and series with both bat and ball.

Arguably to me a virtual draw or dead-heat. .If Sobers was playing in a team I would rather have Imran alongside .However with a gun on my head if I had to choose only one all-rounder for an all-time x1 to replace Sobers then Botham would be my choice as he was morally the more genuine all-rounder.Still Imran would win a spot in a world xi of the last 50 years if I wished to choose a captain .
 
Maybe a point to consider is how many times each took their team to victory from impossible situations
 
Bilal7 said:
Lol, please. Imran's competition is Gary Sobers, not Ian Botham. Any team would love to have a Botham play for them but no team would pick Botham over Imran.
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To me in peak part of career Botham was arguably the best after Gary Sobers and at his best as a pure match-winer ahead of everyone be it Sobers,Imran or Miller.Has anyone equalled Botham's 1981 Ashes performance or 1981 Jubilee test one.To ressurect a team from the depths of despair to reach the pinnacle of glory Botham was the ultimate cricketer .He could exude energy on a cricket field in the all-round sense nonone could in his era and could create a sensational twist or turn in game whether batting bowling or fielding .His only flaw was under performing v West Indies and being overshadowed when playing against both Kapil Dev and Imran Khan in 2 test series each.

Imran was definitely the better bowler throughout but I would rate Botham marginally better as a batsmen and fielder.Botham could take a bowling attack to the sword more than Imran and pull off more spectacular catches.Imran was more in the defensive mould as a batsmen.What distinguished them mainly was that Botham was at peak with both bat and ball simultaneously while Imran was not at his best with both ball and bat at the same time.In his peak era from 1981-87 he was almost the equal of Botham from 1977-82 but was still more of fast bowing allrounder with ability to bat .Botham would win matches and series equally with ball and bat while Imran was mainly a match-winner as fast bowler.
 
Harsh Thakor said:
To me in peak part of career Botham was arguably the best after Gary Sobers and at his best as a pure match-winer ahead of everyone be it Sobers,Imran or Miller.Has anyone equalled Botham's 1981 Ashes performance or 1981 Jubilee test one.To ressurect a team from the depths of despair to reach the pinnacle of glory Botham was the ultimate cricketer .He could exude energy on a cricket field in the all-round sense nonone could in his era and could create a sensational twist or turn in game whether batting bowling or fielding .His only flaw was under performing v West Indies and being overshadowed when playing against both Kapil Dev and Imran Khan in 2 test series each.

Imran was definitely the better bowler throughout but I would rate Botham marginally better as a batsmen and fielder.Botham could take a bowling attack to the sword more than Imran and pull off more spectacular catches.Imran was more in the defensive mould as a batsmen.What distinguished them mainly was that Botham was at peak with both bat and ball simultaneously while Imran was not at his best with both ball and bat at the same time.In his peak era from 1981-87 he was almost the equal of Botham from 1977-82 but was still more of fast bowing allrounder with ability to bat .Botham would win matches and series equally with ball and bat while Imran was mainly a match-winner as fast bowler.
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If we start to chose bowlers on peak than Waqar would be the best bowler ever which he clearly isnt? But he isnt in same way I dont get the logic of Botham being better because his peak was better.

You can't disregard their whole career performance and look only at peaks to decide who's better.
 
mozi2003 said:
IK without a doubt.
He captained Pakistan to a world cup win.
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If that is the sole criteria, then Kapil Dev captained a weaker India team in 1983 ( a decade before IK) to a world cup win over the West Indies who were indisputably the best team in the world that point of time. So nope your argument point is not so valid eh?
 
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After 1983 or so when it because clear that his bowling was in decline, Botham should have really worked at his batting, becoming a supporting medium pacer or even taking up offspin - he had a fivefer in that style.

His batting failures against WI count against him. He didn’t seem to realise that he couldn’t flog them like he did a tiring Aussie attack. I did see him get eighty at Lords - he took them apart for a while, but the hundred eluded him. That was after he took an eightfer, running in hard and bowling genuinely fast.

He was technically excellent against pace and spin and could have become a top-line test #4, but didn’t have the work ethic.

Ah well, shoulda woulda coulda are the last words of a fool, as the song goes.
 
Robert said:
After 1983 or so when it because clear that his bowling was in decline, Botham should have really worked at his batting, becoming a supporting medium pacer or even taking up offspin - he had a fivefer in that style.

His batting failures against WI count against him. He didn’t seem to realise that he couldn’t flog them like he did a tiring Aussie attack. I did see him get eighty at Lords - he took them apart for a while, but the hundred eluded him. That was after he took an eightfer, running in hard and bowling genuinely fast.

He was technically excellent against pace and spin and could have become a top-line test #4, but didn’t have the work ethic.

Ah well, shoulda woulda coulda are the last words of a fool, as the song goes.
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Overall who do you bra know ahead?a dead heat?Do reply to my message earlier
 
Buffet said:
IK, Dev and Botham are not in the same league for me as far as their career goes.

IK is the only one here who was an ATG bowler and an ATG all rounder. Dev and Botham were ATG all rounders, but not ATG bowlers.
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383 wickets, 4 10 fers and 27 5fers is ATG to me. McGrath only took 3 10fers, Waqar and Wasim 5, but each have fewer 5 fers than Botham. The only thing that dulls the sheen is the, Ave 28, but Botham's SR at 56 compares well with Wasim, at 54, and is the same as James Anderson, who has not taken as many 5fers and 10fers as Sir Beefy, though playing over 30 more Tests. What is extraordinary is that these numbers account also for a long period of decline in Botham's form. If there was a ever a player to whom statistics could not do justice it would have to be Botham.
 
New Yorker said:
383 wickets, 4 10 fers and 27 5fers is ATG to me.


McGrath only took 3 10fers, Waqar and Wasim 5, but each have fewer 5 fers than Botham. The only thing that dulls the sheen is the, Ave 28, but Botham's SR at 56 compares well with Wasim, at 54, and is the same as James Anderson, who has not taken as many 5fers and 10fers as Sir Beefy, though playing over 30 more Tests. What is extraordinary is that these numbers account also for a long period of decline in Botham's form. If there was a ever a player to whom statistics could not do justice it would have to be Botham.
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Imagine if I was calling some one ATG batsman if batting average was 43 with lots of tons and double tons. Imagine the same batsmen averaged very low against the best team of his era. It will be mighty hard to make a case for ATG in that scenario.

Not to mention, Packer reject sides contributed to those 5-fers as well. When all said and done, I won't call some one averaging 28-29 in his career an ATG pacer. Yes, Botham was a better all around player than IK in his first half due to bringing all skills for his first 50 tests, but that will make him an ATG all rounder. I don't think he had a good enough career as a bowler to go down as an ATG bowler.
 
Buffet said:
Imagine if I was calling some one ATG batsman if batting average was 43 with lots of tons and double tons. Imagine the same batsmen averaged very low against the best team of his era. It will be mighty hard to make a case for ATG in that scenario.

Not to mention, Packer reject sides contributed to those 5-fers as well. When all said and done, I won't call some one averaging 28-29 in his career an ATG pacer. Yes, Botham was a better all around player than IK in his first half due to bringing all skills for his first 50 tests, but that will make him an ATG all rounder. I don't think he had a good enough career as a bowler to go down as an ATG bowler.
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They picked him out of nostalgia, after he stopped being effective. Without those last terrible 20 tests he would have had 340 wickets at 26 each.

Definitely better than Anderson and Broad.
 
Robert said:
They picked him out of nostalgia, after he stopped being effective. Without those last terrible 20 tests he would have had 340 wickets at 26 each.

Definitely better than Anderson and Broad.
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I do rate him higher than Anderson and Broad as a bowler, but just short of ATG bowler. Gillespie was in ball park of avg 26 with SR of 53-54 and I won't think about putting him in ATG bowler category. Yes, if we take only first half then Botham's bowling performance was surely an ATG level for me despite packer reject issue and not doing good against best team of his era.
 
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mp812rediff said:
If that is the sole criteria, then Kapil Dev captained a weaker India team in 1983 ( a decade before IK) to a world cup win over the West Indies who were indisputably the best team in the world that point of time. So nope your argument point is not so valid eh?
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Captaining a team to a world cup should not be a benchmark for a player to be considered as an ATG, although it plays a major role in that.
Secondly, I have chosen Imran Khan because of his skills, mainly his bowling. But he was not a mug with either and another factor which is also important, why I have chosen IK is the impact that he had as an individual on his team was immense.
He, first analysed his game and then implemented the changes.
With that being said he also passed his knowledge to Wasim.
 
Buffet said:
I do rate him higher than Anderson and Broad as a bowler, but just short of ATG bowler. Gillespie was in ball park of avg 26 with SR of 53-54 and I won't think about putting him in ATG bowler category. Yes, if we take only first half then Botham's bowling performance was surely an ATG level for me despite packer reject issue and not doing good against best team of his era.
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Right, if you look at only one measure, like Average, many kinds of curious comparisons come into play. But Gillespie did not take a single 10fer, and only 8 5fers. He was a backup act his entire career. Ended with 250+ wickets to Botham's 380. Again, to put it in perspective, Botham reaped more 5fers than either Wasim and Waqar, and only one 10 fer less than they did. He was among the top bowlers in the world of his era. An era which had better bowlers than today.

The batsman analogy would be interesting to think with. Sachin and other bonafide ATGs averaged 51-55, so 43 would be at least 10 points difference to the best of the best. Botham averaged 28 with the ball, whereas Wasim averaged 23. That is a 5 point difference but as a percent roughly comparable. However, how many batsmen have there been who have averaged 43 and scored as many centuries as a Ponting or a Sanga? Someone like Laxman would come to mind average wise, but he scored but 17 centuries, only 3 more than Botham.

I am genuinely curious, is there a bowler who compares with Botham for sheer weight of massive hauls who is not ATG level?
 
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Buffet said:
I do rate him higher than Anderson and Broad as a bowler, but just short of ATG bowler. Gillespie was in ball park of avg 26 with SR of 53-54 and I won't think about putting him in ATG bowler category. Yes, if we take only first half then Botham's bowling performance was surely an ATG level for me despite packer reject issue and not doing good against best team of his era.
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Sure he faced Pakistan short of Packerstanis, and Australia shorn of the Chappells / Lillianthomson. It was interesting to see England get hammered three-nil in Australia when the latter came back, but compare Botham’s bowling in the tests where he competed against real hardman quick Lillee.

Both’s second century of wickets came up fast, against the full batting sides.

And he did get that 13 haul in Mumbai against Sunny, Vishy and Vengsarker.
 
Imran Khan and it’s not even close... IK is a tier one all rounder alongside kallis.. Rest are below these two..

Sobers/miller for their era were also tier one but one can be excused for not ranking them alongside Kallis or IK.
 
Ian Botham was better allrounder by country mile ahead. Ian Botham peak did not last long but 77 - 82 he was just on another planet.His habits and back injury caught up but when in full flow there is no comparison as batsman between him and Imran.

Imran made himself into a passable batsman but he never was allrounder in true sense, when his batting improved his bowling was already on downside.

Imran was better bowler but everything else including slip catching Botham wins by country mile.

Botham at his best might be one of the best players in history. Imran as allounder is very overrated.
 
Robert said:
Sure he faced Pakistan short of Packerstanis, and Australia shorn of the Chappells / Lillianthomson. It was interesting to see England get hammered three-nil in Australia when the latter came back, but compare Botham’s bowling in the tests where he competed against real hardman quick Lillee.

Both’s second century of wickets came up fast, against the full batting sides.

And he did get that 13 haul in Mumbai against Sunny, Vishy and Vengsarker.
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Overall who do you rank the better allrounder between Botham and Imran?
 
Robert said:
Imran over a career was a more effective bowler. About equal as batters - one was more a worker who would build an innings and stop the tail being blown away and got better with age, the other could tear any attack apart on his day. Imran was a competent fielder, Botham one of the best slip fielders in history. Imran was a very good leader while Botham’s game fell apart when they made him skipper - ten tests in a row against WI at their peak.

From 1977 to 1982 Botham was unstoppable, about the quickest to 100 and 200 test wickets - but after that various small injuries wore him down. He lost bowling speed and swung it less and started buying wickets. He should not have played tests after the 1987 Ashes, but they kept picking him and a string of poor performances degraded his figures.
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Botham better allrounder than Imran in his peak?Overall who was better ?
 
Harsh Thakor said:
Overall who do you rank the better allrounder between Botham and Imran?
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Imran because he was a better bowler in unhelpful conditions, and because he sustained his performance for longer and while skipper, and he won test series in India and England - firsts for Pakistan - and ran WI close in their backyard.
 
Robert said:
Imran because he was a better bowler in unhelpful conditions, and because he sustained his performance for longer and while skipper, and he won test series in India and England - firsts for Pakistan - and ran WI close in their backyard.
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Was Botham in peak era from 1977-82 better than Imran in his peak from 1981-88?
 
To win you games (and even some series) on his own you'd want Botham, but to keep you as a dominant side you'd want Imran in the long term. Botham has some of the most special 10/10 individual performances, but he peppered that with some absolutely abysmally displays especially towards the end where he was way over the hill. Imran would guarantee a top quality 8-9/10 in bowling pretty much every game, and a solid 5/10 in batting.

Also, Botham was an absolute sensation starting off (as was Kapil actually), but both tailed off pretty badly towards the end of their careers due to a combination of team circumstances, injuries and over-work. Imran was the opposite: he actually didn't start off as well, but became a beast once he changed his action. He sustained that as well which is impressive, though he didn't play as much as either of the other two.

It's pretty close and though I'd go for Imran with my green-tinted glasses on.
 
New Yorker said:
Right, if you look at only one measure, like Average, many kinds of curious comparisons come into play. But Gillespie did not take a single 10fer, and only 8 5fers. He was a backup act his entire career. Ended with 250+ wickets to Botham's 380. Again, to put it in perspective, Botham reaped more 5fers than either Wasim and Waqar, and only one 10 fer less than they did. He was among the top bowlers in the world of his era. An era which had better bowlers than today.

The batsman analogy would be interesting to think with. Sachin and other bonafide ATGs averaged 51-55, so 43 would be at least 10 points difference to the best of the best. Botham averaged 28 with the ball, whereas Wasim averaged 23. That is a 5 point difference but as a percent roughly comparable. However, how many batsmen have there been who have averaged 43 and scored as many centuries as a Ponting or a Sanga? Someone like Laxman would come to mind average wise, but he scored but 17 centuries, only 3 more than Botham.

I am genuinely curious, is there a bowler who compares with Botham for sheer weight of massive hauls who is not ATG level?
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43 average was just a random number, but there are batsmen who averaged higher than 43 with lots of tons and yet not widely regarded as an ATG batsmen due to having many holes in their career.

Jayawardene with 34 tons
Shiv with 30 tons.

Coming back to Botham, it's not just about his career average being 28-29. WI and Pakistan were the two best sides in his time. He played more than 1/3rd of matches against them with average of 33-34.
 
Botham first 25 tests were awesome average of 18 with the ball and 40 with the bat last 25 tests 42 with the ball 23 with the bat it tells a story of his career it started of with a bang but gradually regressed.
Imran got better and better with age averaging 19 with the ball and 50 with the bat in the last 10 years of course he wasn't a great batsman but still he did well ended up as an all time great bowler and a decent batsman which puts him ahead easily apart from Bothams first 25 tests which were awesome.
 
Harsh Thakor said:
Was Botham in peak era from 1977-82 better than Imran in his peak from 1981-88?
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If you don’t count their captaincy stunts - Botham. A more effective batter, almost as good a bowler and a much better catcher.
 
Buffet said:
43 average was just a random number, but there are batsmen who averaged higher than 43 with lots of tons and yet not widely regarded as an ATG batsmen due to having many holes in their career.

Jayawardene with 34 tons
Shiv with 30 tons.

Coming back to Botham, it's not just about his career average being 28-29. WI and Pakistan were the two best sides in his time. He played more than 1/3rd of matches against them with average of 33-34.
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I think both Jaywardene and Shiv would be considered ATG-level by most, if not outright ATG. But my point was that it is difficult to find players with big hauls without matching averages, and both of them averaged around 50.

And I think one need to expand the stats under consideration also when it comes to Pak and Windies. 33-34 is not great, but also not exactly a cosmic chasm, whether it be with ball or bat. That is what an ATG level legspinner like Abdul Qadir averaged across his career with the ball.

But it is not that Botham didn't perform, and perform exceptionally, against Pakistan and the Windies.

He scored a 100 and took 8 wickets against Pakistan in 1978 at Lords, 9 wickets and a 50 in 1982 in Leeds; against Windies 7 wickets in 1981 at Bridgetown, 8 wickets and 81 runs in 1984 at Lords.

Meanwhile in India, a graveyard for pace bowlers, and a challenge for many Western batsmen unaccustomed to playing spin, he was better than Imran, ave 61 with the bat and 25 with the ball, and stamping his authority in Mumbai like arguably no other player, ever.
 
New Yorker said:
Meanwhile in India, a graveyard for pace bowlers, and a challenge for many Western batsmen unaccustomed to playing spin, he was better than Imran, ave 61 with the bat and 25 with the ball, and stamping his authority in Mumbai like arguably no other player, ever.
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He was as good a player of spin as Gooch and Gower. English batters of that era could play spin, unlike most of their modern successors.
 
greatest said:
Over the years Dev was part of strong Indian batting lineups which included Gavasker, Patil, Vengsarkar, Amarnath, Azharuddin, Srikanth, Shastri and later Tendulkar etc. With such accomplished batsmen Dev could play his natural aggressive game. On the other hand Imran for most of his career since 1982 was part of young and inexperienced batting lineups, on most occasions he had to lead by example. Most of the time he had to play in a crisis like his 136 against Australia. But he also had the ability to switch gears and play according to the situation which the other 3 all rounders lacked. Most importantly he helped Pakistan win matches. He took only 7 wickets in the 1987 series in India and made some crucial runs in the 1989 Nehru Cup and on both occasions he was the Man of the Series for his batting and captaincy.
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Going by that logic, Kapil Dev was the best bowler among the 3 because he bowled singlehandedly without any able support. Cheers!
 
Cric1234 said:
Botham first 25 tests were awesome average of 18 with the ball and 40 with the bat last 25 tests 42 with the ball 23 with the bat it tells a story of his career it started of with a bang but gradually regressed.
Imran got better and better with age averaging 19 with the ball and 50 with the bat in the last 10 years of course he wasn't a great batsman but still he did well ended up as an all time great bowler and a decent batsman which puts him ahead easily apart from Bothams first 25 tests which were awesome.
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It is absolutely not true that Imran got better and better with both bat and ball. He faded away very strongly as a bowler in his last three years, had a bowling average of 33 between 1989 and 1992; in many Tests he played de facto as a batsman and specialist captain.

Imran's endlessly referenced 50 batting average in the last ten years of his career also flatters him quite a bit, the product of many dogged not outs at the end of the order.

What the scorecards tell you is that when Imran scored centuries it was often relatively easy runs, an extra bonus on top of hundreds by top order batsmen the likes of Javed or Zaheer.

Botham came in and bashed 100s when the rest of the order was crumbling around him, seizing matches and series by the scruff of the neck countless times with the bat.

To borrow a classic Pakpassion weasel word, of the two one would have to say Botham was the most "naturally talented."
 
New Yorker said:
I think both Jaywardene and Shiv would be considered ATG-level by most, if not outright ATG. But my point was that it is difficult to find players with big hauls without matching averages, and both of them averaged around 50.

And I think one need to expand the stats under consideration also when it comes to Pak and Windies. 33-34 is not great, but also not exactly a cosmic chasm, whether it be with ball or bat. That is what an ATG level legspinner like Abdul Qadir averaged across his career with the ball.

But it is not that Botham didn't perform, and perform exceptionally, against Pakistan and the Windies.

He scored a 100 and took 8 wickets against Pakistan in 1978 at Lords, 9 wickets and a 50 in 1982 in Leeds; against Windies 7 wickets in 1981 at Bridgetown, 8 wickets and 81 runs in 1984 at Lords.

Meanwhile in India, a graveyard for pace bowlers, and a challenge for many Western batsmen unaccustomed to playing spin, he was better than Imran, ave 61 with the bat and 25 with the ball, and stamping his authority in Mumbai like arguably no other player, ever.
Click to expand...

Very good post appraising merit of Botham
 
New Yorker said:
It is absolutely not true that Imran got better and better with both bat and ball. He faded away very strongly as a bowler in his last three years, had a bowling average of 33 between 1989 and 1992; in many Tests he played de facto as a batsman and specialist captain.

Imran's endlessly referenced 50 batting average in the last ten years of his career also flatters him quite a bit, the product of many dogged not outs at the end of the order.

What the scorecards tell you is that when Imran scored centuries it was often relatively easy runs, an extra bonus on top of hundreds by top order batsmen the likes of Javed or Zaheer.

Botham came in and bashed 100s when the rest of the order was crumbling around him, seizing matches and series by the scruff of the neck countless times with the bat.

To borrow a classic Pakpassion weasel word, of the two one would have to say Botham was the most "naturally talented."
Click to expand...

So correct.Imran was a very good batsmen ,particularly towards the end but stats inflate his true merit.I rate Botham marginally ahead in his peak in 1977-82 than Imran from 1981-88 barring factor of captaincy.For pure talent or raw ability I rate Botham ahead ,like you.

Praise your post again.Very pleased to see some fans around here who give Botham his true due.
 
Imran did get a hundred against WI when the top order had collapsed.

He would dig in and grind out a fifty so that his powerful attack had runs to bowl at.

He was more clutch overall than Botham, who could be hit and miss. Though early on there were a lot more hits than misses.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 1982. Imran Khan finished with match figures of 14-116 including a brilliant caught and bowled, as Sri Lanka were beaten by an innings and 102 runs in Lahore <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/x2XyU4jxKN">pic.twitter.com/x2XyU4jxKN</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1640277760873492482?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 27, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Better bowler : Imran
Better batter : Botham
Greater Cricketer between the two : Kapil Dev
 
Imran Khan was better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Cricket_World_Cup_Final#Complete_Scorecard

Botham had a chance to edge past Imran on this day but he did an epic chokejob. Imran batted at 3 and scored 72 while Botham opened the batting and got a duck. What followed was decades of bitterness for the uncertain behaviour of couple of deliveries bowled by Pakistani pacers which resulted in key England wickets in the run chase.
 
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