Imran Khan + PTI = Pakistani Establishment Project?

[LordJames]

Dear @RizwanT20Champ @Major @Bewal Express @Cpt. Rishwat @emranabbas @HalBass9 @The Bald Eagle @KingKhanWC

I have spent my Sunday morning watching this and I watched it multiple times and took notes etc.

Summary of “The Untold Story of Project Imran Khan” (as presented in the documentary):​

• Pakistan’s military establishment, particularly the ISI, allegedly wanted to create a new political force with strong middle-class support to challenge the long-standing dominance of the Bhutto and Sharif families, who were portrayed as corrupt dynasties.​
• To achieve this, they are said to have backed Imran Khan, leveraging his charisma, philanthropic image, and public recognition.​
• General Hamid Gul is claimed to have played a key role in shaping Imran Khan’s political thinking and direction.​
• The documentary suggests that Imran Khan’s views aligned closely with those of the establishment. He supported General Pervez Musharraf and largely avoided criticizing the military, instead focusing his opposition on the Bhutto and Sharif families.​
• Despite growing popularity, Imran Khan struggled electorally. The 2014 protests are portrayed as an attempt to weaken Nawaz Sharif’s government, with Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri joining forces with him, though the situation escalated beyond expectations and support was eventually withdrawn.​
• The documentary alleges that the Panama Papers case was used by the establishment to sideline Nawaz Sharif, with courts and media playing a role in amplifying corruption narratives.​
• It further claims that political engineering—such as promoting the idea of a separate South Punjab province helped shift electable politicians away from PML-N toward PTI, contributing to Imran Khan’s 2018 electoral victory.​

If we, for the sake of argument, accept this entire narrative without question taking every claim at face value and assuming it all unfolded exactly as described and without challenging the narrative or the evidence presented, but instead fully accepting it and moving forward, then I’m left with just one simple question:

Why Build a Messiah Just to Hand Power Back to the Corrupt?

From roughly 1995 all the way until 2022, this wasn't just some temporary tactic or the pet project of a single general. This was the establishment's creed. For nearly three decades, they waged a relentless war against the Bhutto and Sharif dynasties. They branded them irredeemably corrupt, dismantled their governments, and systematically crushed their political power. In their place, they painstakingly forged Imran Khan as the incorruptible messiah, a purified alternative born of their own design.

Entire generations of Pakistan Army officers came and went. Young captains became colonels, colonels became retired old men. Yet through every change of uniform, this belief remained rock solid. It was never about one man's policy. It was institutional memory, passed down and hardened over time. A deep seated, almost genetic distrust of those two families and a matching faith in their own chosen savior.

So why, after all that sacrifice, all that propaganda, all those careers built on that crusade, did the establishment suddenly recoil? Why did they betray their own creation and willingly hand the keys of power back to the very same corrupt families they had spent a lifetime condemning? They knew, without a flicker of doubt, exactly who and what those families were. And still, they let them return.


















​

 

[ElRaja]

imrans biggest issue was that he drank his own koolaid. he never had any particular political skill, his brand was "in a country of corruption, i am not corrupt", which is all well and good, but his lack of political acumen meant he couldnt build a party which reflected his best traits, and compensated for his worst.

inevtiably his party, and his supporters rather than form a unique political entity morphed into the cult of imran, which was a relfection of his worst traits, with none of his best. the army has always played politics, imran sai pehlai bhi aur thai, ironically the sharif family who are currently filling in the role of empty figurehead in cheif again were the prototype under zia.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

imrans biggest issue was that he drank his own koolaid. he never had any particular political skill, his brand was "in a country of corruption, i am not corrupt", which is all well and good, but his lack of political acumen meant he couldnt build a party which reflected his best traits, and compensated for his worst.

inevtiably his party, and his supporters rather than form a unique political entity morphed into the cult of imran, which was a relfection of his worst traits, with none of his best. the army has always played politics, imran sai pehlai bhi aur thai, ironically the sharif family who are currently filling in the role of empty figurehead in cheif again were the prototype under zia.

I haven't watched the video posted above, but ironically I feel that if Pakistan was going to have a military in charge, the best front man would be Imran Khan. But he is not a natural politician, in politics you need to make compromises and that's not what he's about. Asim Munir looks like he's cut from the same cloth, and in the end it just looks like a huge clash of egos. In Pakistan there's only going to be one winner there.

 

[ElRaja]

I haven't watched the video posted above, but ironically I feel that if Pakistan was going to have a military in charge, the best front man would be Imran Khan. But he is not a natural politician, in politics you need to make compromises and that's not what he's about. Asim Munir looks like he's cut from the same cloth, and in the end it just looks like a huge clash of egos. In Pakistan there's only going to be one winner there.

imran was cultivated to be the front man for ages, he spent a decade protecting the army on every forum, the reason everything went pete tong was his visit to russia on the eve of the russo-ukraine war. foreign policy was never supposed to be his ambit. he was ideoligically educated by hamid gul, who is one of the most dangerous people to indoctrinate someone, cos hamid gul was a pan islamist but had feet on the ground experience of the reality of intelligence, insurgencies, terrorism, etc, the army cultivated his religion image to garner votes and gul ideology combine with that became too volatile a mix for the army.

the party was only ever a means to promote imran's image as a leader, which is why without him, they have about as much substance as a chocolate mousse under the sun. i know people in his party, and the majority are not particularly optimistic about the future for the PTI.

i was an imran supporter in the early days, and i hundred percent beleive he won the last election, but that doesnt discount the fact that he was an establishment plant, and without the establishments blessing he doesnt have the political wherewithal to run the core of his party, let alone his party as a whole, or the country.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

imran was cultivated to be the front man for ages, he spent a decade protecting the army on every forum, the reason everything went pete tong was his visit to russia on the eve of the russo-ukraine war. foreign policy was never supposed to be his ambit. he was ideoligically educated by hamid gul, who is one of the most dangerous people to indoctrinate someone, cos hamid gul was a pan islamist but had feet on the ground experience of the reality of intelligence, insurgencies, terrorism, etc, the army cultivated his religion image to garner votes and gul ideology combine with that became too volatile a mix for the army.

the party was only ever a means to promote imran's image as a leader, which is why without him, they have about as much substance as a chocolate mousse under the sun. i know people in his party, and the majority are not particularly optimistic about the future for the PTI.

i was an imran supporter in the early days, and i hundred percent beleive he won the last election, but that doesnt discount the fact that he was an establishment plant, and without the establishments blessing he doesnt have the political wherewithal to run the core of his party, let alone his party as a whole, or the country.

Without a doubt PTI is a one man party, once he's gone it's done. That said, I think the other two parties are just family cults as well. If the military is going to run the country it could do with picking better front men though. A choice between Shehbaz Sharif and Bilawal Bhutto is comically tragic.

 

[LordJames]

imrans biggest issue was that he drank his own koolaid. he never had any particular political skill, his brand was "in a country of corruption, i am not corrupt", which is all well and good, but his lack of political acumen meant he couldnt build a party which reflected his best traits, and compensated for his worst.

inevtiably his party, and his supporters rather than form a unique political entity morphed into the cult of imran, which was a relfection of his worst traits, with none of his best. the army has always played politics, imran sai pehlai bhi aur thai, ironically the sharif family who are currently filling in the role of empty figurehead in cheif again were the prototype under zia.

Dear Brother @ElRaja

You do realize that it doesn't answer the fundamental question as a result of this documentary, right?

Whatever fault, shortcoming, "koolaid drinking" Imran Khan did or his followers bought, why did Military Establishment put back the same corrupt cronies it firmly believed to be corrupt for nearly 30 years?

 

[ElRaja]

Dear Brother @ElRaja

You do realize that it doesn't answer the fundamental question as a result of this documentary, right?

Whatever fault, shortcoming, "koolaid drinking" Imran Khan did or his followers bought, why did Military Establishment put back the same corrupt cronies it firmly believed to be corrupt for nearly 30 years?

because with nawaz out of the picture the PML-N is fractured, maryam and shabaz have different tangents, and by divide and rule the army can exert far more control on the party. the army never had any interest in controlling corruption, the army, or in particualr asim munir's primary goal is preservation of power. i have little doubt imran will eventually take a leadership role, under asim munir, or a chosen successor.

Without a doubt PTI is a one man party, once he's gone it's done. That said, I think the other two parties are just family cults as well. If the military is going to run the country it could do with picking better front men though. A choice between Shehbaz Sharif and Bilawal Bhutto is comically tragic.

family cults are far more enduring than one person cults. at least if bhutto comes to power than pak will lay claim to not only having the first female state leader in the muslim world, but also the first gay leader too.

 

[LordJames]

because with nawaz out of the picture the PML-N is fractured, maryam and shabaz have different tangents, and by divide and rule the army can exert far more control on the party. the army never had any interest in controlling corruption, the army, or in particualr asim munir's primary goal is preservation of power. i have no doubt imran will lead one day under asim munir, or a chosen successor.


family cults are far more enduring than one person cults. at least if bhutto comes to power than pak will lay claim to not only having the first​

Dear @ElRaja , just to rephrase my own point for clarity:

You mentioned that if Bhutto dynasty returns to power, Pakistan would lay claim to the first gay leader. That is an interesting observation.

The documentary asserts "corruption within the dynasties" as a given. It says Imran Khan rose with strong middle‑class support to challenge the long‑standing dominance of the Bhutto and Sharif families.

The meaning is clear. Generational experience and evidence have established that these families are inherently corrupt. That has become institutional memory, tested and proven over time, not just a one‑off accusation. Similarly, generational experience and evidence have established that Imran Khan is not corrupt.

And yet, suddenly, one man is able to override that. Or perhaps the institution itself reverses course, disregards thirty years of proven experience, and completely reverses the situation.

Now, there are a million holes in this theory, I admit that. But taking it at face value raises a few questions, none of which have anything to do with Imran Khan personally.
​

1. First, the Pakistani establishment has no strategic thinking. It is merely the whim of whoever happens to be in charge.​
2. Second, maybe there is no such thing as a "Pakistani establishment" at all. Maybe the person in charge can simply do whatever they want.​
3. Third, putting those two points together, they will sell out Pakistan. They will do whatever appears in the mind of the General in charge, without any strategic or long term vision whatsoever.​

What you are also proposing, if I understand correctly, is that everything comes down to the subjugation of personal ego and worship of the man in charge. If you bow down to the person in charge, it does not matter whether you are corrupt, whether you have sold out, or whether you are acting against the national interest. As long as you are bowing down to the General in charge, nothing else matters.

The documentary is actually devastating to the Pakistani Establishment, even though it was put out to try to curb the popularity of Imran Khan and justify the actions of the Pakistani Establishment.​

 

[ElRaja]

Dear @ElRaja , just to rephrase my own point for clarity:

You mentioned that if Bhutto dynasty returns to power, Pakistan would lay claim to the first gay leader. That is an interesting observation.

The documentary asserts "corruption within the dynasties" as a given. It says Imran Khan rose with strong middle‑class support to challenge the long‑standing dominance of the Bhutto and Sharif families.

The meaning is clear. Generational experience and evidence have established that these families are inherently corrupt. That has become institutional memory, tested and proven over time, not just a one‑off accusation. Similarly, generational experience and evidence have established that Imran Khan is not corrupt.

And yet, suddenly, one man is able to override that. Or perhaps the institution itself reverses course, disregards thirty years of proven experience, and completely reverses the situation.

Now, there are a million holes in this theory, I admit that. But taking it at face value raises a few questions, none of which have anything to do with Imran Khan personally.
​

1. First, the Pakistani establishment has no strategic thinking. It is merely the whim of whoever happens to be in charge.​
2. Second, maybe there is no such thing as a "Pakistani establishment" at all. Maybe the person in charge can simply do whatever they want.​
3. Third, putting those two points together, they will sell out Pakistan. They will do whatever appears in the mind of the General in charge, without any strategic or long term vision whatsoever.​

What you are also proposing, if I understand correctly, is that everything comes down to the subjugation of personal ego and worship of the man in charge. If you bow down to the person in charge, it does not matter whether you are corrupt, whether you have sold out, or whether you are acting against the national interest. As long as you are bowing down to the General in charge, nothing else matters.

The documentary is actually devastating to the Pakistani Establishment, even though it was put out to try to curb the popularity of Imran Khan and justify the actions of the Pakistani Establishment.​

ill try and answer your questions how best i understand them

1. the pakistani establishment has strategic conditions, relationship with china, then america, then saudi, in that order are non negotiable, and after that, but still very important is maintenence of civil order. the long term strategic goal is survival, pakistan is in a geographically exposed position, it is flanked by two nations who question its existance, it is a multi ethnic melting pot which has already seen one division in 1971, the fact that the rest of pakistan has survived and developed a national identity where countries like yugoslavia, the soviet union, etc, completely disintegrated is a significant achievement of some long term strategic continuty of thought.

2. there is, however within the establishment, stages of strength and weakness, and where there is weakness hegemonic individuals have historically taken total control. we are at one of those stages, even though there is significant resentment against asim munir within the top levels of the army for essentially closing the door on their hopes of career advancement.

3. yes, this is a constant risk, however as long as it is done within the conditions set out in point 1, then it doesnt hurt pakistans survival, if you go against those conditions, the establishment would go into a panic and immediately try to coruse correct. numerous generals have come and gone, but those relationships are never compromised.

and yes you are correct, not just pakistan, but all south asians in general operate on a system of patronage from a person in position of power, pakistanis, indians, bengalis, etc, all kiss the ring, the psychophantic worship of modi in india is an even more extreme case, democratically rubber stamped, but psychophantic idealism nonetheless.

 

[Kianig89]

Imran won the 2024 General election , fair and square with any party and proper symbol. That's a fact , no matter how many scripted documentaries they can come up with ?

 

[LordJames]

Imran won the 2024 General election , fair and square with any party and proper symbol. That's a fact , no matter how many scripted documentaries they can come up with ?

Exactly! Another massive hole in this argument.

The establishment tried everything at their disposal to defeat Imran Khan and PTI and lost the battle.

 

[LordJames]

ill try and answer your questions how best i understand them

1. the pakistani establishment has strategic conditions, relationship with china, then america, then saudi, in that order are non negotiable, and after that, but still very important is maintenence of civil order. the long term strategic goal is survival, pakistan is in a geographically exposed position, it is flanked by two nations who question its existance, it is a multi ethnic melting pot which has already seen one division in 1971, the fact that the rest of pakistan has survived and developed a national identity where countries like yugoslavia, the soviet union, etc, completely disintegrated is a significant achievement of some long term strategic continuty of thought.

2. there is, however within the establishment, stages of strength and weakness, and where there is weakness hegemonic individuals have historically taken total control. we are at one of those stages, even though there is significant resentment against asim munir within the top levels of the army for essentially closing the door on their hopes of career advancement.

3. yes, this is a constant risk, however as long as it is done within the conditions set out in point 1, then it doesnt hurt pakistans survival, if you go against those conditions, the establishment would go into a panic and immediately try to coruse correct. numerous generals have come and gone, but those relationships are never compromised.

and yes you are correct, not just pakistan, but all south asians in general operate on a system of patronage from a person in position of power, pakistanis, indians, bengalis, etc, all kiss the ring, the psychophantic worship of modi in india is an even more extreme case, democratically rubber stamped, but psychophantic idealism nonetheless.

The reason I have to disagree with your analysis that over the past 70+ years I have not seen any evidence that Generals of Pakistan Army are actually loyal to Pakistan by and large, a few exceptions may be.

I believe that the promotion from Brigadier General (1 star on wards) is so tightly controlled to ensure that those who get promoted are loyal to their personal interests and are willing to sell their Services to the highest bidder and to safeguard the future of their generations (kids etc).

Sometimes, someone emerges who draws a line in the sand OR challenges the status quo and it may be due to their own survival but for the past 70 years there is no record of Pakistani Generals serving Pakistan or its interests and the biggest evidence is where they settle and how they conduct themselves post retirement in contrast to Indian Generals...

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I haven't watched the video posted above, but ironically I feel that if Pakistan was going to have a military in charge, the best front man would be Imran Khan. But he is not a natural politician, in politics you need to make compromises and that's not what he's about. Asim Munir looks like he's cut from the same cloth, and in the end it just looks like a huge clash of egos. In Pakistan there's only going to be one winner there.

He made plenty of compromises along the way.

In many seats local PTI candidates were sidelines for electables for example.

I was a fan of the PTI vision but its important to undertsand what happened and how Imran came to power and lost it, without resorting to blanket statements that frame it as a battle between corrupt and uncorrupt and good Vs evil.

Imran himself may have been blemish free, but he did deals with the corrupt many a time, acted on behalf of the establishment when it suited him but decided to take them on when it was probably too late and his own party was full of Trojan horses that he himself had let in.

The way he relinqued the Punjab assembly too can't be blamed on not doing deals with the corrupt, it was bad politics, and by giving up Punjab voluntarily it sealed the fate on his future.

Problem now for PTI is that there is no real party, most of them ran away, it's easy to keep Imran in jail. Where was whatever you think of PPP and PMLN their loyalists would have taken bullets for them. Ultimately and regrettably PTI was a castle built on sand ( perhaps it was deliberate). It has major popular support and legitimately won 2024 election but that isn't enough in Pakistan. You need to be entrenched in the power structures or be prepared to fight and wait for your turn. PTI sadly has neither.

 

[LordJames]

ill try and answer your questions how best i understand them

1. the pakistani establishment has strategic conditions, relationship with china, then america, then saudi, in that order are non negotiable, and after that, but still very important is maintenence of civil order. the long term strategic goal is survival, pakistan is in a geographically exposed position, it is flanked by two nations who question its existance, it is a multi ethnic melting pot which has already seen one division in 1971, the fact that the rest of pakistan has survived and developed a national identity where countries like yugoslavia, the soviet union, etc, completely disintegrated is a significant achievement of some long term strategic continuty of thought.

2. there is, however within the establishment, stages of strength and weakness, and where there is weakness hegemonic individuals have historically taken total control. we are at one of those stages, even though there is significant resentment against asim munir within the top levels of the army for essentially closing the door on their hopes of career advancement.

3. yes, this is a constant risk, however as long as it is done within the conditions set out in point 1, then it doesnt hurt pakistans survival, if you go against those conditions, the establishment would go into a panic and immediately try to coruse correct. numerous generals have come and gone, but those relationships are never compromised.

and yes you are correct, not just pakistan, but all south asians in general operate on a system of patronage from a person in position of power, pakistanis, indians, bengalis, etc, all kiss the ring, the psychophantic worship of modi in india is an even more extreme case, democratically rubber stamped, but psychophantic idealism nonetheless.

He made plenty of compromises along the way.

In many seats local PTI candidates were sidelines for electables for example.

I was a fan of the PTI vision but its important to undertsand what happened and how Imran came to power and lost it, without resorting to blanket statements that frame it as a battle between corrupt and uncorrupt and good Vs evil.

Imran himself may have been blemish free, but he did deals with the corrupt many a time, acted on behalf of the establishment when it suited him but decided to take them on when it was probably too late and his own party was full of Trojan horses that he himself had let in.

The way he relinqued the Punjab assembly too can't be blamed on not doing deals with the corrupt, it was bad politics, and by giving up Punjab voluntarily it sealed the fate on his future.

Problem now for PTI is that there is no real party, most of them ran away, it's easy to keep Imran in jail. Where was whatever you think of PPP and PMLN their loyalists would have taken bullets for them. Ultimately and regrettably PTI was a castle built on sand ( perhaps it was deliberate). It has major popular support and legitimately won 2024 election but that isn't enough in Pakistan. You need to be entrenched in the power structures or be prepared to fight and wait for your turn. PTI sadly has neither.

ok, but my point was not dealing with whether they are loyal or not, but whether their actions violated the conditions i set out, which were core to pakistans survival, and if you can give me an example of where a pakistani general has endangered the relations with the three countries i mentioned for personal gain then ill have to perhaps reconsider my view.

also from personal knowledge, family and friends within the army, i can tell you that the pakistani army is not a politically hegemonic entity, there are various views, however there are times where certain individuals manage to take total control, and then for 3 to 5 years challenging them becomes an impossibility. the optics of any division in the army cannot be tolerated, so those who bite their tongue, more often than not are not doing it from a purely self interest.

Do you two ever see the Pakistani culture changing or do you believe it will forever remain full of machinations and based on worship of people in power instead of Institutions being strengthened and allowed to play their roles instead of being manipulated?

 

[ElRaja]

The reason I have to disagree with your analysis that over the past 70+ years I have not seen any evidence that Generals of Pakistan Army are actually loyal to Pakistan by and large, a few exceptions may be.

I believe that the promotion from Brigadier General (1 star on wards) is so tightly controlled to ensure that those who get promoted are loyal to their personal interests and are willing to sell their Services to the highest bidder and to safeguard the future of their generations (kids etc).

Sometimes, someone emerges who draws a line in the sand OR challenges the status quo and it may be due to their own survival but for the past 70 years there is no record of Pakistani Generals serving Pakistan or its interests and the biggest evidence is where they settle and how they conduct themselves post retirement in contrast to Indian Generals...

ok, but my point was not dealing with whether they are loyal or not, but whether their actions violated the conditions i set out, which were core to pakistans survival, and if you can give me an example of where a pakistani general has endangered the relations with the three countries i mentioned for personal gain then ill have to perhaps reconsider my view.

also from personal knowledge, family and friends within the army, i can tell you that the pakistani army is not a politically hegemonic entity, there are various views, however there are times where certain individuals manage to take total control, and then for 3 to 5 years challenging them becomes an impossibility. the optics of any division in the army cannot be tolerated, so those who bite their tongue, more often than not are not doing it from a purely self interest.

 

[ElRaja]

Do you two ever see the Pakistani culture changing or do you believe it will forever remain full of machinations and based on worship of people in power instead of Institutions being strengthened and allowed to play their roles instead of being manipulated?

short answer, not in my lifetime, this is due to economic insecurity, a culture of patronage, personal networks being more important than the state, a free for all on religious franchises, a lack of high level cultural uniformity and poor education.

i can elaborate on either point if you want.

 

[LordJames]

short answer, not in my lifetime, this is due to economic insecurity, a culture of patronage, personal networks being more important than the state, a free for all on religious franchises, a lack of high level cultural uniformity and poor education.

i can elaborate on either point if you want.

Just one comment...the religion actually states that Sovereignty belongs to Allah and the Constitution actually starts with

Sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the state of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust.

La ilaha illallah (There is none worthy of worship except Allah)...Not even Prophet!

I would genuinely like to hear your perspective on how we got from a religion where even the Prophet cannot be worshiped and even Caliphs were challenged openly and in public to where we are today?

Catholicism is based on clergy but Islam has no system which elevates a man (above others) based on knowledge, color, lineage, ethnicity or geography!

So in addition to your points raised by both of you, in your and @DeadlyVenom opinion:

1. What happened over the past few hundreds years?
2. How did we get here?

?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Do you two ever see the Pakistani culture changing or do you believe it will forever remain full of machinations and based on worship of people in power instead of Institutions being strengthened and allowed to play their roles instead of being manipulated?

Sadly bro I don't think it will change. Plus there is no external pressure via western powers to be a democracy like their was in the past.

 

[ElRaja]

Just one comment...the religion actually states that Sovereignty belongs to Allah and the Constitution actually starts with

Sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the state of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust.

La ilaha illallah (There is none worthy of worship except Allah)...Not even Prophet!

I would genuinely like to hear your perspective on how we got from a religion where even the Prophet cannot be worshiped and even Caliphs were challenged openly and in public to where we are today?

Catholicism is based on clergy but Islam has no system which elevates a man (above others) based on knowledge, color, lineage, ethnicity or geography!

So in addition to your points raised by both of you, in your and @DeadlyVenom opinion:

1. What happened over the past few hundreds years?
2. How did we get here?

?

wow, thats a tough question, i dont know for sure so ill give you a theoretical answer, purely my conjecture, islam in arabia was adopted by and large by nomadic tribal beduin people. even the city based arabs were highly tribal, and a tribe limtied by strength of kin relations is kinda non centralised, even if you have a tribal elder, they are not a leader or governor in the conventional sense. the arabs were also by and large merchants, the tribal networks were maintained to ensure equitable security for transporting goods all over the arab peninsula and between the far east and europe. thus the cult of personality never came into it, where diffuse tribes were co existing, with familial proximity determined favour more than anything else.

islam in the indian subcontinent spread into various forms of agricultural societies, which had elements of the caste system, division of labour and an explicitly hierarchical society. whereas the arabs could function in a fairly equitable network, the intensive use of human capital in working the land forced people into serfdom of different types, which created the class system, and system of patronage which is still very very present in pakistani societiy. even where merit is present, favour is expected to repaid by tribute, in the form of defference and respect to the decision making of the person in power. whilst islam says that only allah provides rizq, in reality when you have dependents, lack of job security and the stresses of every day life, a little defference to people in power is often rationalised as respect.

the collection of these small acts, repeated daily, multiplied on a large enough scale, like small rivers of defference carving canyons of class based defference into social fabric of the country. disclaimer, as i said, this is purely my theory.

 

[LordJames]

wow, thats a tough question, i dont know for sure so ill give you a theoretical answer, purely my conjecture, islam in arabia was adopted by and large by nomadic tribal beduin people. even the city based arabs were highly tribal, and a tribe limtied by strength of kin relations is kinda non centralised, even if you have a tribal elder, they are not a leader or governor in the conventional sense. the arabs were also by and large merchants, the tribal networks were maintained to ensure equitable security for transporting goods all over the arab peninsula and between the far east and europe. thus the cult of personality never came into it, where diffuse tribes were co existing, with familial proximity determined favour more than anything else.

islam in the indian subcontinent spread into various forms of agricultural societies, which had elements of the caste system, division of labour and an explicitly hierarchical society. whereas the arabs could function in a fairly equitable network, the intensive use of human capital in working the land forced people into serfdom of different types, which created the class system, and system of patronage which is still very very present in pakistani societiy. even where merit is present, favour is expected to repaid by tribute, in the form of defference and respect to the decision making of the person in power. whilst islam says that only allah provides rizq, in reality when you have dependents, lack of job security and the stresses of every day life, a little defference to people in power is often rationalised as respect.

the collection of these small acts, repeated daily, multiplied on a large enough scale, like small rivers of defference carving canyons of class based defference into social fabric of the country. disclaimer, as i said, this is purely my theory.

Nice! Masha'Allah.

So what happens when you take a kid out of Bhimber and his parents emigrate to London or Washington and he is born and educated there.

1. How does his Islamic mindset changes if he was to remain in Bhimber ?
2. What happens to his next generation who are now 2 generations removed from their ancestral heartland and born and raised in a different society?

 

[IAJ]

Haven’t watched the documentary, but Imran Khan has singlehandly brought awareness to 25 million people. He is trying to change what have been a ‘normal’ almost since Pakistan got independence.

His priority no.1 has always been rule of law in Pakistan, Qanoon should not differentiate between rich and poor. A rich man can commit whatever crime he wants and will get away, many examples of that, the latest where a son of judge killed some poor girls and he was free within days. The elite has so much power that you have no chance whatsoever against them and a country will never, I repeat never progress morally and economically with unjustice.

There are posters here who say IK is not a politician, this is what I have been heard ever since he came into politics, but he is a quick learner and has adapted well and had people listened to him in first place I am sure Pakistan would have been a better country today.

He kept saying war on terrorism is not Pakistan’s fight but Musharraf gave everything US asked and in the process Pakistan have lost 10s of thousands of lives.

And he wanted to be neutral in these wars, and today Pakistan is following his vision by not becoming part of the war in Middle East, I hope we don’t get involved.

His smart lockdown during Covid was even praised here in Norway.

The economy were going well in his last tenure before a piece of paper from abroad ended his tenure all of the sudden. Just imagine a Nuclear power just surrendered. This show how brave Iran is. They don’t even have nukes and have gone into a dangerous war, and their enemy failed with thir regime change operations.

This shows that politician don’t need to compromise in every situation, sometimes you need to take tough stands and IK have done that.

Today he is in jail, not for himself, he hasn’t said a single time that he wants to get out, he just want justice. His election win was stolen, His workers have been killed, kidnapped, women are jailed, his party completely destroyed. But he is not giving up. Next election he will win even more comprehensively, In sha Allah.

Yes, he has made mistakes on this journey and he has often admitted that. He has learned from his mistakes. He is the only solution for Pakistan, you like it or not.

I wish the country all the best, would love to see it prosper, have rule of law, kids in the schools, a surge in tourism etc.

I used to be a fan of PML-N but when you understand what is going on and also can compare there is no doubt in my head who is best suited for leading the country.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Dear @RizwanT20Champ @Major @Bewal Express @Cpt. Rishwat @emranabbas @HalBass9 @The Bald Eagle @KingKhanWC

I have spent my Sunday morning watching this and I watched it multiple times and took notes etc.

Summary of “The Untold Story of Project Imran Khan” (as presented in the documentary):​

• Pakistan’s military establishment, particularly the ISI, allegedly wanted to create a new political force with strong middle-class support to challenge the long-standing dominance of the Bhutto and Sharif families, who were portrayed as corrupt dynasties.​
• To achieve this, they are said to have backed Imran Khan, leveraging his charisma, philanthropic image, and public recognition.​
• General Hamid Gul is claimed to have played a key role in shaping Imran Khan’s political thinking and direction.​
• The documentary suggests that Imran Khan’s views aligned closely with those of the establishment. He supported General Pervez Musharraf and largely avoided criticizing the military, instead focusing his opposition on the Bhutto and Sharif families.​
• Despite growing popularity, Imran Khan struggled electorally. The 2014 protests are portrayed as an attempt to weaken Nawaz Sharif’s government, with Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri joining forces with him, though the situation escalated beyond expectations and support was eventually withdrawn.​
• The documentary alleges that the Panama Papers case was used by the establishment to sideline Nawaz Sharif, with courts and media playing a role in amplifying corruption narratives.​
• It further claims that political engineering—such as promoting the idea of a separate South Punjab province helped shift electable politicians away from PML-N toward PTI, contributing to Imran Khan’s 2018 electoral victory.​

If we, for the sake of argument, accept this entire narrative without question taking every claim at face value and assuming it all unfolded exactly as described and without challenging the narrative or the evidence presented, but instead fully accepting it and moving forward, then I’m left with just one simple question:

Why Build a Messiah Just to Hand Power Back to the Corrupt?

From roughly 1995 all the way until 2022, this wasn't just some temporary tactic or the pet project of a single general. This was the establishment's creed. For nearly three decades, they waged a relentless war against the Bhutto and Sharif dynasties. They branded them irredeemably corrupt, dismantled their governments, and systematically crushed their political power. In their place, they painstakingly forged Imran Khan as the incorruptible messiah, a purified alternative born of their own design.

Entire generations of Pakistan Army officers came and went. Young captains became colonels, colonels became retired old men. Yet through every change of uniform, this belief remained rock solid. It was never about one man's policy. It was institutional memory, passed down and hardened over time. A deep seated, almost genetic distrust of those two families and a matching faith in their own chosen savior.

So why, after all that sacrifice, all that propaganda, all those careers built on that crusade, did the establishment suddenly recoil? Why did they betray their own creation and willingly hand the keys of power back to the very same corrupt families they had spent a lifetime condemning? They knew, without a flicker of doubt, exactly who and what those families were. And still, they let them return.


















​

Brother appreciate the tag. To answer this is detail and properly would need a deep dive. IK's problem and one of the reasons people were disillusioned with him eventually was because he went back on too many things. Appointment of people like Fawad C, Sheikh Rasheed after that infamous discussion they had together etc etc. He projected himself to be better than everyone else but he really was not. He was fallible just like everyone else. He took too long to realize that catchy tabdeeli tunes would only work so much and there actually would need to be ground work put in.

In my personal opinion Bushra was the main reason for his downfall....

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

He made plenty of compromises along the way.

In many seats local PTI candidates were sidelines for electables for example.

I was a fan of the PTI vision but its important to undertsand what happened and how Imran came to power and lost it, without resorting to blanket statements that frame it as a battle between corrupt and uncorrupt and good Vs evil.

Imran himself may have been blemish free, but he did deals with the corrupt many a time, acted on behalf of the establishment when it suited him but decided to take them on when it was probably too late and his own party was full of Trojan horses that he himself had let in.

The way he relinqued the Punjab assembly too can't be blamed on not doing deals with the corrupt, it was bad politics, and by giving up Punjab voluntarily it sealed the fate on his future.

Problem now for PTI is that there is no real party, most of them ran away, it's easy to keep Imran in jail. Where was whatever you think of PPP and PMLN their loyalists would have taken bullets for them. Ultimately and regrettably PTI was a castle built on sand ( perhaps it was deliberate). It has major popular support and legitimately won 2024 election but that isn't enough in Pakistan. You need to be entrenched in the power structures or be prepared to fight and wait for your turn. PTI sadly has neither.

Indeed. It is a lot easier to hold fast to principles when you are the only one holding them. Dealing with so many moving parts requires some flexibility and as you say, he had to make compromises because of it. I don't really see a clear path for democracy. Pakistan needed the army in the early days when it's survival was in question, and democracy doesn't have a great rep these days around the world either. I still maintain we need a leader who doesn't look like a simp or a khusra though, and those appear to be the two options at the moment. It's not a great look.

 

[UP]

If Khan was the project, then why can’t they create one more to replace him? It’s been 4 years.

They have done everything against him and he still stands. He wiped them in 2024 elections sitting in a prison cell.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

If Khan was the project, then why can’t they create one more to replace him? It’s been 4 years.

They have done everything against him and he still stands. He wiped them in 2024 elections sitting in a prison cell.

Khan wasn't the project, PTI eventually became the project and was staffed by establishment lackeys, bit by bit they got their claws in.

You can't create another Imran, he has done things in one lifespan than human beings cannot do in 10. If his life was a hollywood movie, we would walk out of the theatres saying its unrealistic.

They have learned their lesson and won't ever give power to such an individual again.As @Cpt. Rishwat mentioned, they will give power now to people who are essentially khusray or simps, that way they can be managed, and if they have to be moved out of the way, people won't mind too much.

 

[Local.Dada]

Imran is a cult figure more so for overseas Pakistanis. Imagine living in 70s- 80s were racism was rampant and a certain slur was used for all South Asians.

In walks a guy who looks like a Greek god, who is a top of the line athlete, hobnobs with the hottest models and important socialites and makes Page 3 headlines.

That definitely would have helped raise the self- esteem of the overseas Pakistani diaspora . So I can understand the borderline cult like status Imran enjoys.

Also lack of other pop culture heroes for Pakistan makes him a larger hero than he probably should have been. Winning a cricket worldcup is not the same as signing off on fiscal and diplomatic policies. You need to keep your ego in check and surround yourself with people smarter than you who understand these concepts. Having flunkies who are fans and not advisors doesn’t help.


I mean don’t think Sachin Tendulkar or Sharukh Khan will even win a municipality election in India without poltical backing.

 

[UP]

Khan wasn't the project, PTI eventually became the project and was staffed by establishment lackeys, bit by bit they got their claws in.

You can't create another Imran, he has done things in one lifespan than human beings cannot do in 10. If his life was a hollywood movie, we would walk out of the theatres saying its unrealistic.

They have learned their lesson and won't ever give power to such an individual again.As @Cpt. Rishwat mentioned, they will give power now to people who are essentially khusray or simps, that way they can be managed, and if they have to be moved out of the way, people won't mind too much.

Khan is destined to make a comeback. Be it in direct or indirect form tomorrow or in 2 years or 5 years.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Imran is a cult figure more so for overseas Pakistanis. Imagine living in 70s- 80s were racism was rampant and a certain slur was used for all South Asians.

In walks a guy who looks like a Greek god, who is a top of the line athlete, hobnobs with the hottest models and important socialites and makes Page 3 headlines.

That definitely would have helped raise the self- esteem of the overseas Pakistani diaspora . So I can understand the borderline cult like status Imran enjoys.

Also lack of other pop culture heroes for Pakistan makes him a larger hero than he probably should have been. Winning a cricket worldcup is not the same as signing off on fiscal and diplomatic policies. You need to keep your ego in check and surround yourself with people smarter than you who understand these concepts. Having flunkies who are fans and not advisors doesn’t help.


I mean don’t think Sachin Tendulkar or Sharukh Khan will even win a municipality election in India without poltical backing.

How about Azhar, Gambhir, Sidhu, Yusuf Pathan etc, did they receive political backing ?

 

[Red-Indian]

Khan wasn't the project, PTI eventually became the project and was staffed by establishment lackeys, bit by bit they got their claws in.

You can't create another Imran, he has done things in one lifespan than human beings cannot do in 10. If his life was a hollywood movie, we would walk out of the theatres saying its unrealistic.

They have learned their lesson and won't ever give power to such an individual again.As @Cpt. Rishwat mentioned, they will give power now to people who are essentially khusray or simps, that way they can be managed, and if they have to be moved out of the way, people won't mind too much.

High quality discussion giving a lot of new perspective. I feel slightly embarrassed butting in as an outsider.

Given that the Army won't trust someone like him again and the anti-corruption platform is mainly an urban obsession without any visceral feeling behind it, it will take a combination of an extraordinary cause and an extraordinary person for a democratic movement to rise in Pakistan again. Possibly a Sri Lanka level crisis with insane inflation and empty fuel pumps.

However, being an Islamic nuclear State is both a curse and a boon for Pakistan.

A boon for obvious reasons - what happened to Iran cannot happen to Pakistan.

A curse because countries like the US, China and Saudi will always step in to preserve some semblance of order. If a potentially chaotic uprising happens, loans and help from either bilateral or multilateral institutions will help kick the can down the road and maintain status quo. What happened in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal cannot be allowed to happen in Pakistan. Too risky.

 

[Local.Dada]

How about Azhar, Gambhir, Sidhu, Yusuf Pathan etc, did they receive political backing ?

Azhar- Congress
Gambhir- BJP
Siddhu- BJP and then went to Congress with larger ambitions, was sidelined and back to Kapil Sharma show/ IPL commentary
Yusuf- TMC

All of them won with the machinery of these huge political eco systems behind them.

Gambhir vacated his seat. Azhar- Yusuf are just faces, they are irrelevant in their poltical parties, Siddhu- irrelavant and probably quit politics from what I understand.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Yes, a dumb ending as per the project's goal. As per this documentary, the establishment dig their own grave in the end.

 

[Red-Indian]

Azhar- Congress
Gambhir- BJP
Siddhu- BJP and then went to Congress with larger ambitions, was sidelined and back to Kapil Sharma show/ IPL commentary
Yusuf- TMC

All of them won with the machinery of these huge political eco systems behind them.

Gambhir vacated his seat. Azhar- Yusuf are just faces, they are irrelevant in their poltical parties, Siddhu- irrelavant and probably quit politics from what I understand.

No point acting holier than thou. The personality cult is as prevalent in India as anywhere else in the subcontinent.

Yes we don't revere cricketers as much but film stars have had easy entry into politics since MGR's days especially in the South which is otherwise sane. Even today, Vijay is making a big splash in Tamil politics without any political backing.

Imran in Pakistan is anyway beyond a cricketer - a larger than life figure. Other cricketers have needed political backing to succeed.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

High quality discussion giving a lot of new perspective. I feel slightly embarrassed butting in as an outsider.

Given that the Army won't trust someone like him again and the anti-corruption platform is mainly an urban obsession without any visceral feeling behind it, it will take a combination of an extraordinary cause and an extraordinary person for a democratic movement to rise in Pakistan again. Possibly a Sri Lanka level crisis with insane inflation and empty fuel pumps.

However, being an Islamic nuclear State is both a curse and a boon for Pakistan.

A boon for obvious reasons - what happened to Iran cannot happen to Pakistan.

A curse because countries like the US, China and Saudi will always step in to preserve some semblance of order. If a potentially chaotic uprising happens, loans and help from either bilateral or multilateral institutions will help kick the can down the road and maintain status quo. What happened in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal cannot be allowed to happen in Pakistan. Too risky.

I guess it depends on how much the people actually want democracy.

Pakistan always seems on the brink of collapse to outsiders, but there is still some reasonably strong systems in place. However I dont think there is a huge appetite for democracy, people just want a functional system and have examples from other parts of the world they can draw on.

i think we only really push for democracy when it was fashionable for western powers, and countries could stay in their good graces by being democracies. Now the world has moved on, and even the rising powers that seem democractic - Russia, Turkey, India are all quite cultish regimes. Just being a democracy for the sake of it, is not an aspiration for most Pakistanis.

EVen those that clamour for democracy, really only want it so their guy gets in power. We don't have a culture like some Indians have, where even if they are die hard congress supporters, a BJP win is still something they can feel pride in, because they feel that it is a win for democracy.

 

[Red-Indian]

I guess it depends on how much the people actually want democracy.

Pakistan always seems on the brink of collapse to outsiders, but there is still some reasonably strong systems in place. However I dont think there is a huge appetite for democracy, people just want a functional system and have examples from other parts of the world they can draw on.

i think we only really push for democracy when it was fashionable for western powers, and countries could stay in their good graces by being democracies. Now the world has moved on, and even the rising powers that seem democractic - Russia, Turkey, India are all quite cultish regimes. Just being a democracy for the sake of it, is not an aspiration for most Pakistanis.

EVen those that clamour for democracy, really only want it so their guy gets in power. We don't have a culture like some Indians have, where even if they are die hard congress supporters, a BJP win is still something they can feel pride in, because they feel that it is a win for democracy.

All that pride in the opposition wins is restricted to the bourgeoise chattering classes. Nobody in developing countries 'want' democracy as a concept. What the public in India and I suppose in any Democracy get used to is their voice being heard and mattering. It might be for petty short-sighted reasons like handouts or subsidies or might be for more high-minded reasons like fighting back against discrimination.

I do agree that Pakistan is not particularly enamored of democracy. After all Pakistanis haven't really ever experienced it so aren't even sure if it's worth anything. The issue I suppose is not democracy as such...it's actually the apathy that Pakistanis seem to have developed towards their political system - what they owe it and what it owes them.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Imran is a cult figure more so for overseas Pakistanis. Imagine living in 70s- 80s were racism was rampant and a certain slur was used for all South Asians.

In walks a guy who looks like a Greek god, who is a top of the line athlete, hobnobs with the hottest models and important socialites and makes Page 3 headlines.

That definitely would have helped raise the self- esteem of the overseas Pakistani diaspora . So I can understand the borderline cult like status Imran enjoys.

Also lack of other pop culture heroes for Pakistan makes him a larger hero than he probably should have been. Winning a cricket worldcup is not the same as signing off on fiscal and diplomatic policies. You need to keep your ego in check and surround yourself with people smarter than you who understand these concepts. Having flunkies who are fans and not advisors doesn’t help.


I mean don’t think Sachin Tendulkar or Sharukh Khan will even win a municipality election in India without poltical backing.

While Khan's good looks were definitely part of his appeal, he was actually admired far more for his leadership. British cricket writers at the time were in awe of him.

If it was just about looks then at the same time we had the opener Mohsin Khan who married one of your Bollywood actresses. But beyond the good looks he was just another good time cricketer enjoying the high life like many others of his background, not much more substance to him than that.

It does beg the question though, surely there must be more able politicians in Pakistan itself if Imran Khan was a cricketer and he gained such a following. Instead the people are left to choose between inadequate offspring of the two ruling dynasties.

 

[Local.Dada]

While Khan's good looks were definitely part of his appeal, he was actually admired far more for his leadership. British cricket writers at the time were in awe of him.

If it was just about looks then at the same time we had the opener Mohsin Khan who married one of your Bollywood actresses. But beyond the good looks he was just another good time cricketer enjoying the high life like many others of his background, not much more substance to him than that.

It does beg the question though, surely there must be more able politicians in Pakistan itself if Imran Khan was a cricketer and he gained such a following. Instead the people are left to choose between inadequate offspring of the two ruling dynasties.

Good looks/ features always don’t equal to charisma. I have seen Moshin Khan speak as an expert on cricket shows. Not at all impressive.

Imran Khan won a World Cup in 1992 on his last legs as a cricketer. While sure it’s a great accomplishment for him and Pakistan and that makes him a cult hero. Not sure how that translates to political success?

I never understood what Imran Khan’s actual manifesto was? Was he someone who wanted a religious system- shariah law? was he a communist/socialist/capitalis? What exactly was his ideology?

 

[Pakpak]

He made plenty of compromises along the way.

In many seats local PTI candidates were sidelines for electables for example.

I was a fan of the PTI vision but its important to undertsand what happened and how Imran came to power and lost it, without resorting to blanket statements that frame it as a battle between corrupt and uncorrupt and good Vs evil.

Imran himself may have been blemish free, but he did deals with the corrupt many a time, acted on behalf of the establishment when it suited him but decided to take them on when it was probably too late and his own party was full of Trojan horses that he himself had let in.

The way he relinqued the Punjab assembly too can't be blamed on not doing deals with the corrupt, it was bad politics, and by giving up Punjab voluntarily it sealed the fate on his future.

Problem now for PTI is that there is no real party, most of them ran away, it's easy to keep Imran in jail. Where was whatever you think of PPP and PMLN their loyalists would have taken bullets for them. Ultimately and regrettably PTI was a castle built on sand ( perhaps it was deliberate). It has major popular support and legitimately won 2024 election but that isn't enough in Pakistan. You need to be entrenched in the power structures or be prepared to fight and wait for your turn. PTI sadly has neither.

I am very surprised I am disagreeing with you, but I do.

His loyal core is rotting (and some like Yasmeen and Rashid) are almost dead. T His loyal core have totally fallen on the same axe as him, so not sure what you mean by that.

Ejaz Chaudhary 1,072 Days
Barrister Hassaan Niazi 972 Days
Imran Khan himself 981 Days
Bushra Bibi 717 Days
Dr. Yasmin Rashid 1,072 Days


Mian Rasheed 1,072 Days
Omar Sarfaraz Cheema 1,072 Days
Shah Mehmood Qureshi 972 Days
Brig. (R) Javed Akram 1,066 Days
Syed Salman Raza 563 Days (Detained in UAE)

The others are in and out of jail and some have now been for years:
Falak Javed 200 Days
Sanam Javed 189 Days
Abdul Latif Chitrali 191 Days
Sahibzada Hamid Raza 156 Days
Kaleemullah Khan 33 Days
Aliya Hamza Malik 19 Days
Musa Virk 14 Days

And some are on the run in hiding from the army like Murad Saeed. Who from Noon League 'took bullets?'. Dar himself implicated Sharif in the major trial before running off. None of the Sharif either took jail, ran taking deals.

PTI's core has sacrificed itself and are paying for it with their lives. Grit and gut and spine no other party had.

 

[Pakpak]

I am a huge PTI supporter. My own friends's families have paid with deaths due to the dictators incharge of our country now.

Imran should have dominated the rest of his life had he been a politcally more savy operator. A good example is Erdogan. Unfortunately showing spine is good, if you're a powerful country and not a bankrupt nation. He should have buttered up the US, then did what he wanted anyway 10 years down the line. Same for the UAE and Saudis.

But again, even if he was naive, the army LEGALLY has no right to overthrow a democratic leader. You could be the worst most moronic PM ever, noone has the right. So I am baffled at using his naivety as an excuse to say oh well that's what the army does!

 

[Pakpak]

I am very surprised I am disagreeing with you, but I do.

His loyal core is rotting (and some like Yasmeen and Rashid) are almost dead. T His loyal core have totally fallen on the same axe as him, so not sure what you mean by that.

Ejaz Chaudhary 1,072 Days
Barrister Hassaan Niazi 972 Days
Imran Khan himself 981 Days
Bushra Bibi 717 Days
Dr. Yasmin Rashid 1,072 Days


Mian Rasheed 1,072 Days
Omar Sarfaraz Cheema 1,072 Days
Shah Mehmood Qureshi 972 Days
Brig. (R) Javed Akram 1,066 Days
Syed Salman Raza 563 Days (Detained in UAE)

The others are in and out of jail and some have now been for years:
Falak Javed 200 Days
Sanam Javed 189 Days
Abdul Latif Chitrali 191 Days
Sahibzada Hamid Raza 156 Days
Kaleemullah Khan 33 Days
Aliya Hamza Malik 19 Days
Musa Virk 14 Days

And some are on the run in hiding from the army like Murad Saeed. Who from Noon League 'took bullets?'. Dar himself implicated Sharif in the major trial before running off. None of the Sharif either took jail, ran taking deals.

PTI's core has sacrificed itself and are paying for it with their lives. Grit and gut and spine no other party had.

Yaseem Rashid and Ijaz Chaduhary*

 

[ElRaja]

Nice! Masha'Allah.

So what happens when you take a kid out of Bhimber and his parents emigrate to London or Washington and he is born and educated there.

1. How does his Islamic mindset changes if he was to remain in Bhimber ?
2. What happens to his next generation who are now 2 generations removed from their ancestral heartland and born and raised in a different society?

you adapt your religious belief system into the prevailing social structures, in the UK at least this means a lot of second and third gen brit paks instead of being defferential and cowtoeing to power, ended up adapting the class based aggression of the labour unions, which was the the immediate political framework they came into first contact with, especially in the north in the 70s and 80s, and became extremely mistrustful of power to the extent that a lot lost all trust in the political system. the lack of buy in, into the political system led to further disenfranchisement which saw a minority of the youth getting radicalised, who essentially did a 180 from their parents attitutdes to power and become diy reveolutionaries, in their own minds at least.

also a shout out to all the people who have contributed to this thread, cant remember the last time i read such a well articulated thread on pakpassion, from both sides. a lot of effort, and very little name calling. well done guys.

 

[ElRaja]

I am a huge PTI supporter. My own friends's families have paid with deaths due to the dictators incharge of our country now.

Imran should have dominated the rest of his life had he been a politcally more savy operator. A good example is Erdogan. Unfortunately showing spine is good, if you're a powerful country and not a bankrupt nation. He should have buttered up the US, then did what he wanted anyway 10 years down the line. Same for the UAE and Saudis.

But again, even if he was naive, the army LEGALLY has no right to overthrow a democratic leader. You could be the worst most moronic PM ever, noone has the right. So I am baffled at using his naivety as an excuse to say oh well that's what the army does!

we are not using his naievety to say, oh thats what the army does, we are using his naivety to say, either he knew exactly what the army was upto and didnt protect against it, or he had no idea what the army was up to whihc would make him a lot worse than naive.

he continuously rode on the belief that his supporters would do anything for him, he saw himself as a revolutionary but failed to build the apparatus revolutionary leaders create. he called for civil boycott, nothing happened, he thought he'd give up the punjab assembly and gave up any power he had. pakistani voters are not revolutionaries, they wont go causing revolutions for anyone.

a person who is so clueless in running the internal political machinations of a set up that he was a part of, would be absolutely clueless in running a country on a global level where the players are way smarter, and the stakes way higher, which is why ironically, his politcal miscalculation to visit russia on the even of the ukraine war, ironically was the first domino to fall.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Khan is destined to make a comeback. Be it in direct or indirect form tomorrow or in 2 years or 5 years.

The only way this will happen is if he for once does the smart thing politically and accepts a deal of some sort. He can come out, regroup and fight again.

Being a principled man in jail isn't helping anyone.

 

[topspin]

I am a huge PTI supporter. My own friends's families have paid with deaths due to the dictators incharge of our country now.

Imran should have dominated the rest of his life had he been a politcally more savy operator. A good example is Erdogan. Unfortunately showing spine is good, if you're a powerful country and not a bankrupt nation. He should have buttered up the US, then did what he wanted anyway 10 years down the line. Same for the UAE and Saudis.

But again, even if he was naive, the army LEGALLY has no right to overthrow a democratic leader. You could be the worst most moronic PM ever, noone has the right. So I am baffled at using his naivety as an excuse to say oh well that's what the army does!

This is exactly why I took exception to baqwas about IK "was lucky not to get death penalty". Some people have no shame.

 

[hks222]

Thank god he is in jail. May he keep rotting there

 

[daytrader]

Thank god he is in jail. May he keep rotting there

Is it the Qeema naans or the Biryanis that haven't digested yet?

 

[Sachin fan]

If Khan was the project, then why can’t they create one more to replace him? It’s been 4 years.

They have done everything against him and he still stands. He wiped them in 2024 elections sitting in a prison cell.

Why do they need to replace him if current party in power is towing the army line? Army supporting PTI was to teach other parties a lesson that the army can become a kingmaker even with a lesser party.

So now the major parties have learned their lessons and are bowing to the army.

 

[Sachin fan]

Khan is destined to make a comeback. Be it in direct or indirect form tomorrow or in 2 years or 5 years.

Nah, after the PTI supporters proved themselves to be spineless, this is increasingly unlikely.

They don't have the guts to bring Imran back to power and even if by any chance they do, he can still be removed in a couple of months and the gutless supporters will do nothing like they did nothing while he is in jail

The time to act was when he was being imprisoned. If nothing happened then, why will it happen in the future? The only way he can come into and hold power is with army's support and that's not going to happen again.

 

[BouncerGuy]

PML n and PPP chooran has worked fine for their supporters... They have turned their backs to this pathetic regime..

They are happy at 370 rupee petrol and 6000 rupee cylinder... Bhangra of highest caliber

 

[Sachin fan]

PML n and PPP chooran has worked fine for their supporters... They have turned their backs to this pathetic regime..

They are happy at 370 rupee petrol and 6000 rupee cylinder... Bhangra of highest caliber

Yes, Imran would have magically prevented the Iran war and the subsequent increase in price. He is the messiah after all.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Yes, Imran would have magically prevented the Iran war and the subsequent increase in price. He is the messiah after all.

Who said that???

Stop assuming everything.

 

[Sachin fan]

Who said that???

Stop assuming everything.

The price increase and shortage is because of Iran war. You are directly blaming the regime for it in post 48. No regime or any party could have done anything.

 

[BouncerGuy]

The price increase and shortage is because of Iran war. You are directly blaming the regime for it in post 48. No regime or any party could have done anything.

did you know what are the taxes gov is taking??? Do you know about Levy???

Do you live in pakistan?? you have zero idea about the ground reality...

 

[IAJ]

The price increase and shortage is because of Iran war. You are directly blaming the regime for it in post 48. No regime or any party could have done anything.

Everyone knew petrol prices would go up because of the war, and that part is normal. The problem in Pakistan was never that prices increased. The real problem is how sharply and suddenly they increased, while people in nearby countries did not face the same shock. Other countries in the region also import oil, face global crises, and depend on the dollar, but their governments handled it in a way that softened the blow for ordinary people. In Pakistan, instead of spreading the impact over time, heavy taxes and a very large petroleum levy were added on top of already high global prices, which made petrol unaffordable almost overnight. This was not just about the market; it was about policy choices.

During Imran Khan’s time, petrol prices did go up, but the government tried to absorb part of the pressure instead of passing everything to the public at once. At that time, global oil prices were also high, yet fuel remained relatively affordable compared to what came later. Ironically, many politicians who are in power today strongly criticized those prices back then and made big promises about keeping petrol cheap, promises that were quietly forgotten once they took charge. Under the next government, subsidies were removed quickly, taxes and levies were increased aggressively, and the full burden was placed on ordinary people without a gradual transition. The result was a dramatic spike that people could not adjust to.

If you look around the region, you can see that rising oil prices alone do not automatically lead to extreme outcomes. Governments that adjusted taxes, reduced levies, or phased in increases managed to keep fuel prices more stable, even under similar global conditions. Pakistan’s experience stands out not because oil became expensive worldwide, but because local decisions made the situation much worse than it needed to be. So the claim that no government could have done anything is simply not true. Other governments did act, and Pakistan could have handled this with more care too.

​

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am very surprised I am disagreeing with you, but I do.

His loyal core is rotting (and some like Yasmeen and Rashid) are almost dead. T His loyal core have totally fallen on the same axe as him, so not sure what you mean by that.

Ejaz Chaudhary 1,072 Days
Barrister Hassaan Niazi 972 Days
Imran Khan himself 981 Days
Bushra Bibi 717 Days
Dr. Yasmin Rashid 1,072 Days


Mian Rasheed 1,072 Days
Omar Sarfaraz Cheema 1,072 Days
Shah Mehmood Qureshi 972 Days
Brig. (R) Javed Akram 1,066 Days
Syed Salman Raza 563 Days (Detained in UAE)

The others are in and out of jail and some have now been for years:
Falak Javed 200 Days
Sanam Javed 189 Days
Abdul Latif Chitrali 191 Days
Sahibzada Hamid Raza 156 Days
Kaleemullah Khan 33 Days
Aliya Hamza Malik 19 Days
Musa Virk 14 Days

And some are on the run in hiding from the army like Murad Saeed. Who from Noon League 'took bullets?'. Dar himself implicated Sharif in the major trial before running off. None of the Sharif either took jail, ran taking deals.

PTI's core has sacrificed itself and are paying for it with their lives. Grit and gut and spine no other party had.

You are right but this is a small subset of the party,.largely ideological figures in the party that don't have much traction in the masses.

We shouldn't forget that what led to his ouster, was the vote of no confidence that was as a result of his own government and coalition breaking down.

Unfortunately trading many party seats/positions to electables gave a short term benefit but in the long term was a way for the establishment to play chess.

 

[hks222]

Is it the Qeema naans or the Biryanis that haven't digested yet?

To you: Is it some other fantasy that is still on?

 

[LordJames]

I appreciate the polite discourse from all sides, its wonderful to see and learn from.

Thanks

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nah, after the PTI supporters proved themselves to be spineless, this is increasingly unlikely.

They don't have the guts to bring Imran back to power and even if by any chance they do, he can still be removed in a couple of months and the gutless supporters will do nothing like they did nothing while he is in jail

The time to act was when he was being imprisoned. If nothing happened then, why will it happen in the future? The only way he can come into and hold power is with army's support and that's not going to happen again.

I would never describe PTI supporters as spineless. Many of their diehard party members had to flee the country, and if you are a supporter, you put your family at risk if you make too much noise in public.

 

[Pakpak]

I would never describe PTI supporters as spineless. Many of their diehard party members had to flee the country, and if you are a supporter, you put your family at risk if you make too much noise in public.

To add hundreds died in Islamabad in one of the worst massacres. Tens of thousands rot in jail. All PTI supporters.

With more guts than many of us inc me

 

[Varun]

To add hundreds died in Islamabad in one of the worst massacres. Tens of thousands rot in jail. All PTI supporters.

With more guts than many of us inc me

The same thing happened in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, etc and yet the people stood strong and managed to turn the page.

What makes Pakistan (PTI supporters or not) different?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The same thing happened in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, etc and yet the people stood strong and managed to turn the page.

What makes Pakistan (PTI supporters or not) different?

In those countries army was acting under the instructions of the government. In Pakistan the army is setting the instructions.

 

[Local.Dada]

In all honesty the issue with IK doesn’t seem poltical at this point, it seems more personal.

 

[Red-Indian]

In those countries army was acting under the instructions of the government. In Pakistan the army is setting the instructions.

I also think the Pakistani and military and government's relative isolation in Rawalpindi and Islamabad insulates them public opinion. Protesters and crowds have to come/be brought in from the outside and cannot rise spontaneously.

In Dhaka, Colombo and Kathmandu, the tipping point came when local crowds overwhelmed the cops/military and had local public support.

In the end though. Pakistanis are just not that into public protest activism for non-religious issues. In India, stuff like price rises, reservations, language etc. bring hundreds of thousands on to the streets. Pakistanis have developed a level of apathy on those issues.

 

[psyoptica]

I also think the Pakistani and military and government's relative isolation in Rawalpindi and Islamabad insulates them public opinion. Protesters and crowds have to come/be brought in from the outside and cannot rise spontaneously.

In Dhaka, Colombo and Kathmandu, the tipping point came when local crowds overwhelmed the cops/military and had local public support.

In the end though. Pakistanis are just not that into public protest activism for non-religious issues. In India, stuff like price rises, reservations, language etc. bring hundreds of thousands on to the streets. Pakistanis have developed a level of apathy on those issues.

Is the social conditioning people have been subjected to for years. People’s rights have been trampled so mercilessly they’ve become hopeless albeit more resilient to their sufferings.