Imran Khan's greatness as a bowler alone

[finalfantasy7]

Underrated as a bowler imo. However his era had many greats and if we do compare him with the other all rounders in his era.
Pakpassion does appreciate how great hadlee was.

 

[Bhaijaan]

An ATG test bowler but Lilee, Hadlee, Marshal were better.

 

[ManFan]

An ATG bowler and ATG captain.

A more than capable middle-order batsman who could grind it out in tough situations a la Adelaide 1990.

Part of my All-Time Test XI:

Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Vivian Richards, Imran Khan (c), Gilchrist (wk), Warne, Akram, Malcolm Marshall, and Glenn McGrath.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

ATG as pure bowler alone. He can easily fit into second best Test XI of all time with just his bowling.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Would be interesting to see his numbers in the 80s. Remember, he played a lot of games as a medium pacer in the 70s.

 

[The_Odd_One]

ATG as pure bowler alone. He can easily fit into second best Test XI of all time with just his bowling.

He will be in the first choice team in Asia. Took 205 wickets in 51 matches at an average of 20 on dead tracks of Asia. No fast bowler has bowled better than him in Asia.

 

[jeetu]

In Top 10 purely as bowler alone. But not in Top 5 as he is clearly behind Marshall , Mcgrath , Ambrose , Hadlee and Steyn.
6- 10 is very tightly packed group
I'll go with Donald , Akram , Truman , Imran and Lillee.
11-15 would probably be Garner , Walsh , Waqar , Pollock and Willis.

 

[BaankeJi]

In Top 10 purely as bowler alone. But not in Top 5 as he is clearly behind Marshall , Mcgrath , Ambrose , Hadlee and Steyn.
6- 10 is very tightly packed group
I'll go with Donald , Akram , Truman , Imran and Lillee.
11-15 would probably be Garner , Walsh , Waqar , Pollock and Willis.

Ambrose was that far ahead of Walsh?

 

[Robert]

Wasim as a bowler was more talented and skillful than Imran

And yet Imran was more effective.

Best fast bowler of the eighties, after Marshall.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Ambrose was that far ahead of Walsh?

Yes he was. Ambrose was a tier 1 ATG. Tier 1 ATG can fit in All Time Test XI without much controversy. Not all ATG are in the same league.

 

[saadsahabjee]

for four or five years he had an avg of under 15 as a bowler.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

An ATG as a fast bowler,probably in the top 10 of all time in tests.

As an alltounder in the top 3.

 

[saadsahabjee]

Would be interesting to see his numbers in the 80s. Remember, he played a lot of games as a medium pacer in the 70s.

 

[adzzy786]

Averaged 15 with the bowl for last few years of his career how is that second tier? Last 10 years average of 19 with the bowl and over 50 with the bat are incredible stats. He revolutionised swing bowling and showed how Wasim and Waqar how to swing the ball. Not just a great bowler but a great leader. Really changed Pakistan bowling forever.

If we never had Imran then we would never had seen Waqar and probably never saw Wasim, especially to the same effect.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Those who haven't seen Imran bowl may place him lower down than Hadlee and McGrath.

Imran's all round abilities and captaincy cloud judgments about his bowling.

He was lethal as a bowler - way more potent in tests vs Wasim or Hadlee. On all wickets. He would get his team a wicket when no one else could. Batsmen knew they had to see Imran's spell out - and yet most spells, he would get breakthroughs. There was no one on the other end taking wickets for him - Qadir has a 33 average and Wasim/Waqar came way too late into his career. Sarfaraz was non existent in the 80s.

McGrath had Warne and Gillespie throughout and also Brett Lee, McGill etc.

I saw Wasim bowl too - so can say he is close but not close enough. Also he had good spinners and of course Waqar at the other end.

Hadlee's record outside helpful wickets is suspect.

Only Marshall in the last 40 years has been ahead of Imran among fast bowlers.

 

[happydavy]

Not a great fan of random comparisons, but Imran Khan's numbers do make him a great cricketer as a bowler alone. Quite some record, must say.

 

[shaaik]

Those who haven't seen Imran bowl may place him lower down than Hadlee and McGrath.

Imran's all round abilities and captaincy cloud judgments about his bowling.

He was lethal as a bowler - way more potent in tests vs Wasim or Hadlee. On all wickets. He would get his team a wicket when no one else could. Batsmen knew they had to see Imran's spell out - and yet most spells, he would get breakthroughs. There was no one on the other end taking wickets for him - Qadir has a 33 average and Wasim/Waqar came way too late into his career. Sarfaraz was non existent in the 80s.

McGrath had Warne and Gillespie throughout and also Brett Lee, McGill etc.

I saw Wasim bowl too - so can say he is close but not close enough. Also he had good spinners and of course Waqar at the other end.

Hadlee's record outside helpful wickets is suspect.

Only Marshall in the last 40 years has been ahead of Imran among fast bowlers.

No surprise Imran rates Marshal as the best fast bowler ever post ww2.

 

[wrongun]

Ambrose was that far ahead of Walsh?

I grew up watching both and yes, he was. Walsh was very good but I'm not sure I'd even have him in these all time top 10 lists. He's in the conversation sure, but his place is debatable. Curtly had another gear, another level. An aura. You kept your wits about Walsh but you feared Amby.

 

[jeetu]

In 80's Imran was just good as any , just behind Marshall and at par with Hadlee.

[table=width: 700, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5 [/td][td]10 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]54 [/td][td]256 [/td][td]19.12 [/td][td]2.43 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]53 [/td][td]289 [/td][td]19.28 [/td][td]2.41 [/td][td]47.9 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]63 [/td][td]323 [/td][td]19.91 [/td][td]2.68 [/td][td]44.5 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]J Garner (WI) [/td][td]1980-1987 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]210 [/td][td]20.62 [/td][td]2.38 [/td][td]51.8 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MA Holding (WI) [/td][td]1980-1987 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]184 [/td][td]23.38 [/td][td]2.78 [/td][td]50.3 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DK Lillee (AUS) [/td][td]1980-1984 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]171 [/td][td]24.07 [/td][td]2.75 [/td][td]52.3 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]1984-1989 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]122 [/td][td]24.24 [/td][td]2.68 [/td][td]54.2 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Iqbal Qasim (PAK) [/td][td]1980-1988 [/td][td]32 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]24.99 [/td][td]2.22 [/td][td]67.2 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RGD Willis (ENG) [/td][td]1980-1984 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]143 [/td][td]25.72 [/td][td]2.96 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TM Alderman (AUS) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]33 [/td][td]136 [/td][td]28.01 [/td][td]2.72 [/td][td]61.5 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]80 [/td][td]272 [/td][td]29.54 [/td][td]2.85 [/td][td]62.1 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GR Dilley (ENG) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]40 [/td][td]135 [/td][td]29.7 [/td][td]3.01 [/td][td]59 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BL Cairns (NZ) [/td][td]1980-1985 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]101 [/td][td]29.95 [/td][td]2.47 [/td][td]72.5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EJ Chatfield (NZ) [/td][td]1982-1989 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]115 [/td][td]30.2 [/td][td]2.23 [/td][td]80.9 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GF Lawson (AUS) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]46 [/td][td]180 [/td][td]30.56 [/td][td]2.96 [/td][td]61.7 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Abdul Qadir (PAK) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]57 [/td][td]216 [/td][td]32.31 [/td][td]2.75 [/td][td]70.2 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]75 [/td][td]258 [/td][td]32.39 [/td][td]3.15 [/td][td]61.6 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RJ Shastri (INDIA) [/td][td]1981-1989 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]39.51 [/td][td]2.3 [/td][td]103 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JE Emburey (ENG) [/td][td]1980-1989 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]39.65 [/td][td]2.21 [/td][td]107.4 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Sam99]

He is probably in top 3 for greatest all rounders but can anyone tell truth about tampering during that time? I am not much sure but heard many stuff that they did tampering to get much reverse swing.

 

[Hitman]

Geoff Boycott was once asked his opinion on audio whether Kallis was among the top 3 all rounders of all time. He said no. He then named his top 3 all rounder ever -

1. Garry Sobers

2. Imran Khan

3. Keith Miller.

 

[ManFan]

He is probably in top 3 for greatest all rounders but can anyone tell truth about tampering during that time? I am not much sure but heard many stuff that they did tampering to get much reverse swing.

In the program, “The Devil’s Advocate” on English television regarding Imran’s then newly published autobiography in the mid-90’s, Imran was heavily questioned on ball-tampering.

There were cricketing experts and even a few ex-players like Boycott and Murray being asked their opinion on it.

It ultimately came down to this:

1) Did he tamper with the ball regularely?

2) Would he have taken the same number of wickets had he not ball-tampered?

The answers of IK were the following:

1) He tampered with the ball using bottle caps during a league County game in the early 80’s. He did however scratch the seam using his nails which was a common practice amongst bowlers back than as it was not a “foreign object” or deteriorating the ball condition.

2) If everyone could take wickets with a ball that was tampered with or was enabling “reverse swing” than the issue would be irrelevant. However, Imran states a specific match where he took five wickets with the old ball while his fellow England bowler (in a County game) failed to take a single wicket.

The conclusion:

Imran certainly used his fingers to alter the ball but it was within the general understanding of the rules back than and a widely practiced maneuver. Hence, Imran holds his status of an ATG bowler because even when others altered the ball, they could not achieve the same results demonstrating a sheer gulf in class.

 

[ManFan]

An ATG test bowler but Lilee, Hadlee, Marshal were better.

Lilee was ineffective in Asia.

He’s largely overrated by the Australian and English media on his bowling abilities because of his influence on the development of fast bowling.

 

[Hitman]

Lilee was ineffective in Asia.

He’s largely overrated by the Australian and English media on his bowling abilities because of his influence on the development of fast bowling.

Just saying, Imran Khan rated Lillee the greatest fast bowler of his time in his autobiography.

 

[ManFan]

Just saying, Imran Khan rated Lillee the greatest fast bowler of his time in his autobiography.

Any fast bowler who took up the game in the early 70’s to early 80’s rates him as the best because he was the best at that time playing in fast AUS wickets or seam-friendly ENG pitches.

It’s not that he didn’t perform on flat wickets (Centurion Test, MCG 81’) but ones that were quite slow and sluggish.

 

[Ab Fan]

I am sorry to say but the greatest bowler to have come from Pakistan is a left-arm fast bowler. A magician with the bowl as well as a genius of the game who was the biggest reason for Pakistan's greatest ever achievement, World Cup 1992. His legacy towers over any fast bowler the game has ever seen except Marshall and maybe McGrath.

 

[ManFan]

I am sorry to say but the greatest bowler to have come from Pakistan is a left-arm fast bowler. A magician with the bowl as well as a genius of the game who was the biggest reason for Pakistan's greatest ever achievement, World Cup 1992. His legacy towers over any fast bowler the game has ever seen except Marshall and maybe McGrath.

He trumps Imran in overall skill and in ODI’s.

But in Tests...

1) Imran has a better strike rate and economy.

2) Imran never faced Bangladesh or Zimbabwe.

3) Imran’s averages in AUS (28.5), ENG (24.7), WI (25.1), NZ (26.7), IND (28), and SL (18) while Wasim averages in AUS (24), ENG (28.8), WI (26.9), NZ (17.2), IND (27.8), and SL (20.4).

So Wasim is better in AUS, IND, and NZ while Imran in ENG, WI, and SL.

It’s pretty even.

 

[Sam99]

In the program, “The Devil’s Advocate” on English television regarding Imran’s then newly published autobiography in the mid-90’s, Imran was heavily questioned on ball-tampering.

There were cricketing experts and even a few ex-players like Boycott and Murray being asked their opinion on it.

It ultimately came down to this:

1) Did he tamper with the ball regularely?

2) Would he have taken the same number of wickets had he not ball-tampered?

The answers of IK were the following:

1) He tampered with the ball using bottle caps during a league County game in the early 80’s. He did however scratch the seam using his nails which was a common practice amongst bowlers back than as it was not a “foreign object” or deteriorating the ball condition.

2) If everyone could take wickets with a ball that was tampered with or was enabling “reverse swing” than the issue would be irrelevant. However, Imran states a specific match where he took five wickets with the old ball while his fellow England bowler (in a County game) failed to take a single wicket.

The conclusion:

Imran certainly used his fingers to alter the ball but it was within the general understanding of the rules back than and a widely practiced maneuver. Hence, Imran holds his status of an ATG bowler because even when others altered the ball, they could not achieve the same results demonstrating a sheer gulf in class.

Well what i wanted to ask is people say he bowled on flat tracks of asia mostly but then he tampered ball a bit as well (which many bowlers did in asia) so when we compare with all rounder/bowlers like hadlee how can we bring flat tracks thing when reverse swing nullified the tracks issue that time. Both should be compared in similar conditions with either both tampering the ball or both bowling without it.

 

[ManFan]

Well what i wanted to ask is people say he bowled on flat tracks of asia mostly but then he tampered ball a bit as well (which many bowlers did in asia) so when we compare with all rounder/bowlers like hadlee how can we bring flat tracks thing when reverse swing nullified the tracks issue that time. Both should be compared in similar conditions with either both tampering the ball or both bowling without it.

We bring the flat tracks into consideration because that is a sign of how a bowler adapts to adverse conditions.

Hadlee is one of four Non-Asian bowlers to have stellar records in Asia. The other three being McGrath, Walsh, and Steyn.

The Test for most Non-Asian bowlers is how they fare in Asia while most Asian bowlers are judged how they fare in tough conditions like Australia and sometimes England. However, since Asian bowlers are often dealt pancakes as wickets, their stats are not a clear reflection of their fellow Non-Asian bowlers in their home conditions which are much easier to bowl in.

Hadlee averaged 22 in India, 12 in SL but 45 in Pakistan. So his overall record in Asia is 26 while Imran’s record in Non-Asian countries is also 26. However, Imran averaged 22 in Asia while Hadlee averaged 23 in Non-Asian countries.

So Imran is better than someone like Hadlee because he averaged better away (Non-Asia).

 

[Ab Fan]

He trumps Imran in overall skill and in ODI’s.

But in Tests...

1) Imran has a better strike rate and economy.

2) Imran never faced Bangladesh or Zimbabwe.

3) Imran’s averages in AUS (28.5), ENG (24.7), WI (25.1), NZ (26.7), IND (28), and SL (18) while Wasim averages in AUS (24), ENG (28.8), WI (26.9), NZ (17.2), IND (27.8), and SL (20.4).

So Wasim is better in AUS, IND, and NZ while Imran in ENG, WI, and SL.

It’s pretty even.

Actually, SL were minnows during Imran's era while Zim was a decent side in 90s. So, that is one. Now In ODIs, when we compare though, Wasim was the greatest ever while Imran was great but nowhere near Waz in that format.

Anyways, all these are stats and numbers which alone are never enough. When you look beyond it, the peer-reputation which Wasim has got is second to none. The biggest legends of the game, the likes of Lara, Viv, Ponting, Kallis, Sangakkara, VVS, Azharuddin all regard them as the best bowler they faced.

Even the likes of Botham and the contemporaries of Wasim, i.e. Donald, Ambrose, McGrath, all of them consider Wasim the most skillful and complete bowler of their era.

 

[ManFan]

Actually, SL were minnows during Imran's era while Zim was a decent side in 90s. So, that is one. Now In ODIs, when we compare though, Wasim was the greatest ever while Imran was great but nowhere near Waz in that format.

Anyways, all these are stats and numbers which alone are never enough. When you look beyond it, the peer-reputation which Wasim has got is second to none. The biggest legends of the game, the likes of Lara, Viv, Ponting, Kallis, Sangakkara, VVS, Azharuddin all regard them as the best bowler they faced.

Even the likes of Botham and the contemporaries of Wasim, i.e. Donald, Ambrose, McGrath, all of them consider Wasim the most skillful and complete bowler of their era.

I agree but I was just making a point that in TESTS, the margin is not great.

Akram makes the XI in almost everyone’s list because he’s is by far the greatest left-arm fast bowler to have played the game.

 

[Ab Fan]

I agree but I was just making a point that in TESTS, the margin is not great.

Akram makes the XI in almost everyone’s list because he’s is by far the greatest left-arm fast bowler to have played the game.

He underachieved a bit in Tests. That's true. But he is still right up there with the very best in business.

 

[ManFan]

He underachieved a bit in Tests. That's true. But he is still right up there with the very best in business.

He even admitted that he regrets the fact that his best Best Bowling Figures remain 7/119.

 

[Robert]

Any fast bowler who took up the game in the early 70’s to early 80’s rates him as the best because he was the best at that time playing in fast AUS wickets or seam-friendly ENG pitches.

It’s not that he didn’t perform on flat wickets (Centurion Test, MCG 81’) but ones that were quite slow and sluggish.

If you read Imran’s autobio you will see that he rates Lillee the highest because another Aussie had broken down on a Melbourne uber-flattie, and Lillee had to keep going. His sheer refusal to quit in difficult situations made Imran respect him the most.

 

[gazza619]

Wasim as a bowler was more talented and skillful than Imran

Yeah but even Umar Akmal has talent and skill which means nothing really if you don’t work hard enough and remain disciplined and focus.