In hindsight, India's victory over England in the 3rd Test is not such a big thing

[Canford Cliffs]

I know India won the test match and Indian fans like us are really happy. But is it that big a deal though? England is losing few tests at home almost every summer. Even much weaker teams like Pakistan (7th rank) and WI(10th rank) have recently won a test match each in England. So as a no.1 test team this was very much expected from India. What will matter is if India can win this series. If not, this win means nothing.

 

[gazza619]

True.
If India wins one more test in the series then it will be a more meaningful performance. But England will come hard as they always do and win the series 4-1..Unless India makes some surprise changes in the next game (for example bring in Shaw and drop the useless Ashwin), my money is on England to win.

 

[Brodipet_baadshah]

Exactly...holds significance only if it helps in winning series else good for nothing

 

[JaDed]

True , we had won a test last time too, hopefully we have it in us to fight.

 

[Syed1]

I wonder why none of India's wins are fluke but all of Pakistan's are. If India does not win any of the remaining tests then we will label this win as a fluke like you guys go about labeling ours.

 

[Napa]

I wonder why none of India's wins are fluke but all of Pakistan's are. If India does not win any of the remaining tests then we will label this win as a fluke like you guys go about labeling ours.

If the #7 team wins against the #2 team people can be forgiven for thinking it is a fluke. If the #1 team wins against the #2 team, then people are less inclined to think it is a fluke.

Having said that, I would say that Pakistan's recent victory against England was not a fluke. They won pretty comprehensively.

 

[gazza619]

If the #7 team wins against the #2 team people can be forgiven for thinking it is a fluke. If the #1 team wins against the #2 team, then people are less inclined to think it is a fluke.

Having said that, I would say that Pakistan's recent victory against England was not a fluke. They won pretty comprehensively.

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

 

[JaDed]

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

Why leave Lanka out ,put them as well, they won in UAE and win at home too plus are the last Asian team to win in England.

 

[gazza619]

Why leave Lanka out ,put them as well, they won in UAE and win at home too plus are the last Asian team to win in England.

Fair enough, though SL haven’t done badly and their recent domination against SA means they should be taken seriously. But they do lack fire power in bowling tbh.

 

[Napa]

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

If the current series between India and England ends 2-1 (or 3-2 in England's favor) then India's ranking points will be 118, compared to Pakistan's 88. That is simply too much of a difference to believe it "means nothing".

 

[the_outsider]

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

Maybe you don't understand it but the ranking system works just fine. In the last 12 years, India has the 2nd highest wins overseas (3rd highest even after taking out SL,WI & BAN) and have lost only 2 home series in the last 20 years. Every other team have lost at least 5 series at home. In the last 6 years India has been the only team with an unbeaten home record.

So yeah, it may not make sense to you. But the ranking system works just fine.

 

[Brodipet_baadshah]

Maybe you don't understand it but the ranking system works just fine. In the last 12 years, India has the 2nd highest wins overseas (3rd highest even after taking out SL,WI & BAN) and have lost only 2 home series in the last 20 years. Every other team have lost at least 5 series at home. In the last 6 years India has been the only team with an unbeaten home record.

So yeah, it may not make sense to you. But the ranking system works just fine.

Ranking in tests doesn’t make any sense to some but surprisingly the rankings in t20 makes absolutely perfect sense on all fronts

 

[ManFan]

With all due respect to OP, India deserve this win and should congratulate themselves on achieving it.

 

[cricketworm]

It means India will continue to be number 1 side for a while.

In terms of ranking every test matters, especially if you are top team and playing against lesser number teams. It brings down your ranking if top teams even draw test against lesser number team.

When you are number 1. Every test matters.

 

[the_outsider]

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

Just wanted to add these stats in case you still have doubts.

In the last decade the top 3 teams with
The most home wins are - India, Aus & ENG/SA
The most away wins are - Aus, India & SA.

So it is not a coincidence that in the last decade the top 3 teams with the most number of days being ranked #1 or #2 have been - you guessed it - Australia, India & SA.

 

[cricketworm]

In hindsight, India has won test without having their number 1 guy to do the job against England, Bhuvi.

Not saying India are minnows if Bhuvi doesn't play, but it means for the first time, India has good bench strength for the fast bowlers. Yadav can shine too.

 

[gazza619]

Maybe you don't understand it but the ranking system works just fine. In the last 12 years, India has the 2nd highest wins overseas (3rd highest even after taking out SL,WI & BAN) and have lost only 2 home series in the last 20 years. Every other team have lost at least 5 series at home. In the last 6 years India has been the only team with an unbeaten home record.

So yeah, it may not make sense to you. But the ranking system works just fine.

How many home tests have Pakistan played and how many has India played in this 12 year period?

 

[Ab Fan]

We have won a match against a top side in their backyard after a long time when the series was alive.

Some fans are in such delusion that with this win, they are feeling like they have managed to humiliate England in their den. Unfortunately, the fact is even West Indies and Sri Lanka have won matches vs England in England in this decade and Pakistan have drawn back-to-back series in England as well.

It will be a shame if India doesn't win one more match by the end of this series.

 

[kuskash]

Fluke win, it happens.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India despite inadequate preparation, despite the absence of key players in the first two tests, despite losing all tosses, despite conditions heavily favored England with rain around pulled off almost a win in the first test and comprehensively thrashed England in the third. Yea it is a big deal to stage such a come back. Addition of just one key bowler made world of difference. Regardless of the ranking in right conditions any team can beat England in England. In right conditions England can thrash any team in the world. Just because Windies/Pakistan/India all win a test against England it won't make Pakistan = India = West Indies.

 

[the_outsider]

How many home tests have Pakistan played and how many has India played in this 12 year period?

About the same, actually.

You would be foolish to assume that those factors wouldn't even out over a period as long as 12 years.

And btw the ranking system DOES have other teams than Pakistan. Believe it or not, but at #7 Pakistan is not the "team to beat" in test cricket.

 

[Brodipet_baadshah]

How many home tests have Pakistan played and how many has India played in this 12 year period?

Fyi...India never lost even a home Test to Srilanka whereas Pak lost home series 2-0 most recently

 

[ManFan]

Fyi...India never lost even a home Test to Srilanka whereas Pak lost home series 2-0 most recently

I believe since 2010, when Pakistan adopted the UAE as their home, they have lost one series to SL (2017).

Also since 2010, India has lost one series at home to England (2012).

So while the domination of India at home is certainly greater than Pakistan, it’s not as if the latter has been consistently losing at home.

 

[Brodipet_baadshah]

I believe since 2010, when Pakistan adopted the UAE as their home, they have lost one series to SL (2017).

Also since 2010, India has lost one series at home to England (2012).

So while the domination of India at home is certainly greater than Pakistan, it’s not as if the latter has been consistently losing at home.

Why only from 2010? As per earlier arguments we can consider last 12 or 25 years and compare? India never lost to teams like SL in their history of game whereas pak lost to Zimbabwe even

 

[ManFan]

Why only from 2010? As per earlier arguments we can consider last 12 or 25 years and compare? India never lost to teams like SL in their history of game whereas pak lost to Zimbabwe even

Because 2010 is when Pakistan moved to their “home”, the UAE.

 

[TeamPak95]

I'll say this, in this series Trent Bridge was the last place I thought India would win a test in. I predicted them winning 1 test this series and that too in Lords. So this victory was very impressive considering how they played at Lords and considering that Trent Bridge is, from what I've seen, Broad's and Anderson's hunting ground.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Sorry you have no clue.

Every away test win is special even more so when it comes in SENA nations for an Asian side.

Only the 7th test win for India in England too.

 

[giri26]

In the hindsight any win is not a big thing. It is just a game.

 

[Mamba Red]

Not a fluke India played well, but if they still lose this series then it will mean that India isn't a good team at all, they still have a lot of weaknesses in their batting, thier bowling is looking ok but not great.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Hope to have many more such victories regularly and start to win test series as well. Call them fluke, undeserving, not a great thing or whatever, thats absolutely fine.

 

[Oligochaetes]

Yea of course, you just won a game in a sport which almost 95% of the countries in the world do not care about.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I wonder why none of India's wins are fluke but all of Pakistan's are. If India does not win any of the remaining tests then we will label this win as a fluke like you guys go about labeling ours.

Fluke? Pakistan is England's bogey team in tests since the 90s. They beat England black and blue every other test, both home and away. Only trolls say Pak beating England is fluke.

 

[Itachi]

Pakistan winning in tests isn't fluke. Tests aren't won by some fluke innings.

CT was a different case.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Won't amount to much unless we can ensure a win in the next match. That would mean a lot in my opinion since we were 2-0 down. If we come back to level the series 2-2 that would be a performance worthy of a no.1 team. Otherwise , every team wins a test match in England these days.

 

[MP2011]

India despite inadequate preparation, despite the absence of key players in the first two tests, despite losing all tosses, despite conditions heavily favored England with rain around pulled off almost a win in the first test and comprehensively thrashed England in the third. Yea it is a big deal to stage such a come back. Addition of just one key bowler made world of difference. Regardless of the ranking in right conditions any team can beat England in England. In right conditions England can thrash any team in the world. Just because Windies/Pakistan/India all win a test against England it won't make Pakistan = India = West Indies.

This.

 

[MP2011]

Great to finally win a LIVE overseas test especially after what happened at Lords. Considering how rare overseas test wins are for every test playing nation nowadays, don't think Virat & Co (and Indian fans) will be losing too much of their sleep whether even WI or Pak have won here previously.

How does their wins concern India?

 

[MP2011]

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

Yeah sure, tell that to all non Indian captains who probably know a thing more about cricket.

 

[RainMan_]

Current ranking system means nothing tbh, there is not much difference between Eng India Pak Aus SA and NZ.

Pls tell me this was supposed to be a joke. There's a massive difference between Pakistan and India, as far as test cricket is concerned.

Pak resides at the bottom of the pile who just got whitewashed by minnow Lanka while India is at the top of the ranking who r almost 20 points ahead of the second ranked team.

 

[pratiktc]

Lol, with only 6 wins ever prior to this in England, how is this not a big deal?? That too in a live series.

 

[RainMan_]

Strength wise teams like Bangladesh, Pakistan, Srilanka and WI r almost similar.

 

[RainMan_]

It may sound a bit ridiculous but this Indian team has the capability of becoming as good as the 2000 Australian team.

The way this New Indian team under Kohli crushes the opponents is unparal to anything we have seen in recent past. Teams like Australia, SA and Eng r too fragile and regularly lose tests at home while India in India is a team of different level. Whenever a team visits India they expect to get whitewashed and if they manage to draw a test they consider it as an achievement.

This is how good this Indian team is.

 

[MP2011]

It may sound a bit ridiculous but this Indian team has the capability of becoming as good as the 2000 Australian team.

The way this New Indian team under Kohli crushes the opponents is unparal to anything we have seen in recent past. Teams like Australia, SA and Eng r too fragile and regularly lose tests at home while India in India is a team of different level. Whenever a team visits India they expect to get whitewashed and if they manage to draw a test they consider it as an achievement.

This is how good this Indian team is.

If ever there was a hyperbole....

 

[happydavy]

Agree with OP to a certain extent. If India manages to win or draw this series then I would call it one of the best ever, for giving a comeback from 0-2.

If they end up losing it 3-1 or 4-1, then really this victory was worth nothing .

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

India should win the series 3-2 and then challenge ATG teams of yesteryears for the title of the GOAT TEAM! Their bowlers, batsmen and even the bench strenght is just too damn good at the moment!

 

[the_outsider]

India has to win at least one more test. Then we can say this was a successful tour, even if the final score is 2-3.

 

[big_gamer007]

Unless we go on to win the series this counts for Zilch.

If we lose the series then it will be a disappointing and embarrassing performance by the team.

 

[big_gamer007]

India has to win at least one more test. Then we can say this was a successful tour, even if the final score is 2-3.

Anything less than a series win is a disastrous tour. How can you call losing a series as successful? This is minnow mentality and we are ranked # 1 not number 10.

 

[big_gamer007]

India should win the series 3-2 and then challenge ATG teams of yesteryears for the title of the GOAT TEAM! Their bowlers, batsmen and even the bench strenght is just too damn good at the moment!

Batsmen are crap only Kohli is good rest are garbage. Bowlers are good best attack we have ever had for overseas conditions.

 

[big_gamer007]

It may sound a bit ridiculous but this Indian team has the capability of becoming as good as the 2000 Australian team.

The way this New Indian team under Kohli crushes the opponents is unparal to anything we have seen in recent past. Teams like Australia, SA and Eng r too fragile and regularly lose tests at home while India in India is a team of different level. Whenever a team visits India they expect to get whitewashed and if they manage to draw a test they consider it as an achievement.

This is how good this Indian team is.

Nope for that we need our very own Langer/Hayden. As good as Ponting, McGrath, Gilly and Warnie were if it wasn't for Langer/Hayden opening the batting the aussie team would not have been so successful. Time and again they set foundations for other players to build on.

Indian openers are just garbage till the time we find our Langer/Hayden we won;t be anywhere near aussies of 2000s.

 

[gazza619]

About the same, actually.

You would be foolish to assume that those factors wouldn't even out over a period as long as 12 years.

And btw the ranking system DOES have other teams than Pakistan. Believe it or not, but at #7 Pakistan is not the "team to beat" in test cricket.

Are you sure that Pakistan and India have played the same amount of home tests? Finding it hard to believe..

How can the rankings be fair when India has not played Pakistan (the team which has a good record against India in India)...

 

[the_outsider]

Are you sure that Pakistan and India have played the same amount of home tests? Finding it hard to believe..

How can the rankings be fair when India has not played Pakistan (the team which has a good record against India in India)...

It's fair because India is the #1 test team and Pak is #7. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which side is better off without playing the other.

Also since the 2000s India has won more matches in Pak than Pak has won in India. Not that that should matter because as I said - #1 and #7. It's too big a gap.

 

[MP2011]

How can the rankings be fair when India has not played Pakistan (the team which has a good record against India in India)...

IIRC, Pak has won 1/6 tests in India this millennium. If that's definition of a good record for you especially when the conditions in India are more or less similar to what you find in Pakistan then I've nothing more to add here.

Also, the teams which used to have 'good' record in India are long gone, so come out of that superiority complex. In fact India could've easily stacked up its Wins column against Pakistan if not for political interference which I strongly detest.

 

[gazza619]

It's fair because India is the #1 test team and Pak is #7. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which side is better off without playing the other.

Also since the 2000s India has won more matches in Pak than Pak has won in India. Not that that should matter because as I said - #1 and #7. It's too big a gap.

You have ignored my question again. You are claiming Pakistan and India have played almost the same amount of home tests (do you have the numbers?) this is important because India’s ranking is inflated by home wins of course..

Did records began in 2000s? Or you are just tailoring this as it suits your claim. India is not a genuine number one team as it has refused to play Pakistan which has a better record against it...

 

[gazza619]

IIRC, Pak has won 1/6 tests in India this millennium. If that's definition of a good record for you especially when the conditions in India are more or less similar to what you find in Pakistan then I've nothing more to add here.

Also, the teams which used to have 'good' record in India are long gone, so come out of that superiority complex. In fact India could've easily stacked up its Wins column against Pakistan if not for political interference which I strongly detest.

Why this millenium? Do you ignore records just because they were made before you were born? Childish.

 

[barah_admi]

The win itself was impressive but in the grand scheme of things, a number one side should be winning more often...yet they are way behind in the series and need to win a further two games on the trot.

 

[the_outsider]

Why this millenium? Do you ignore records just because they were made before you were born? Childish.

Same reason why we still don't use the steam engine and call the operator when we use the phone.

History has its place. But the present matters more.

 

[Titan24]

If the #7 team wins against the #2 team people can be forgiven for thinking it is a fluke. If the #1 team wins against the #2 team, then people are less inclined to think it is a fluke.

Having said that, I would say that Pakistan's recent victory against England was not a fluke. They won pretty comprehensively.

By your definition England’s first two wins were flukes bcz they were 5th ranked and they were able to beat the 1 ranked team.

 

[MP2011]

Why this millenium? Do you ignore records just because they were made before you were born? Childish.

Childish is to cling on to one's past laurels (?) in hope that same will keep on happening in future as well!

 

[MP2011]

And do not try to judge my date of birth, lol! And you call me childish!

 

[MP2011]

By your definition England’s first two wins were flukes bcz they were 5th ranked and they were able to beat the 1 ranked team.

No test win is fluke. It comes after a battle over 4-5 days so hence can't be fluke.

 

[MP2011]

Why this millenium? Do you ignore records just because they were made before you were born? Childish.

Childish is to club all current test teams in same bracket like you did in some other thread.

 

[Titan24]

Indian team takes too much time to adapt to conditions which is unlike a no 1 ranked team. Same thing happened in SA as well, lost first two and when the series was gone they won the last one.

Same thing is happening here though the series is not completely gone but still took too much time to adapt.

But, credit to India that they try till the end to win a match in an overseas series unlike other teams who become too demoralized in tests if the start isnt good and when they know series is gone.

 

[Titan24]

No test win is fluke. It comes after a battle over 4-5 days so hence can't be fluke.

I was just questioning Napa’s post.

Though I believe a test victory can also be a fluke. It takes one super bad session for a team to be almost completely out of the test.

 

[MP2011]

Indian team takes too much time to adapt to conditions which is unlike a no 1 ranked team. Same thing happened in SA as well, lost first two and when the series was gone they won the last one.

Same thing is happening here though the series is not completely gone but still took too much time to adapt.

But, credit to India that they try till the end to win a match in an overseas series unlike other teams who become too demoralized in tests if the start isnt good and when they know series is gone.

This I agree with. Too much time taken to acclimatize.

 

[Titan24]

I was just questioning Napa’s post.

Though I believe a test victory can also be a fluke. It takes one super bad session for a team to be almost completely out of the test.

When that happens most teams never recover bcz they get demoralized and idea of winning looks far fetched at that point and it gives the illusion of a comprehensive win for the opposition while it was just 1 session that changed everything including the mindset lf the other team.

 

[Titan24]

Though I don’t believe in flukes but since everyone is using that word now a days I used it.
However, I believe Test cricket now a days gives illusion of a hard fought contest over 5 days with two innings each.
While in reality if the first innings or first 2 days for a team go really bad, now a days they usually just throw in the towel. That is why we see such big margin of victories regularly now a days.
Yes but there is definitely very less chance of minnow winning a test than it winning a T20. Its mainly bcz even if they have a good session against a top team, the top team still doesnt stop believing beating a minnow which is clearly not the case when top teams are down against a top teams in current era.

 

[RamLakhan]

IIRC, Pak has won 1/6 tests in India this millennium. If that's definition of a good record for you especially when the conditions in India are more or less similar to what you find in Pakistan then I've nothing more to add here.

Also, the teams which used to have 'good' record in India are long gone, so come out of that superiority complex. In fact India could've easily stacked up its Wins column against Pakistan if not for political interference which I strongly detest.

You forgot one great logic of PP... One CT Finals has the capacity to reduce No.1 to No.1000 and elevate No.7 to No.1 (to the power of infinity)

 

[Titan24]

You forgot one great logic of PP... One CT Finals has the capacity to reduce No.1 to No.1000 and elevate No.7 to No.1 (to the power of infinity)

What about beating India at home in 2012 in ODIs

 

[the_outsider]

What about beating India at home in 2012 in ODIs

Why stop at 2012? Why not go back to India's tour to Pak in 2006? Or the one in 2003/04?
Or Pakistan's tour to India in 2007/08?

If we are going to live in the past, might as well bring back the glory days, right?

 

[RainMan_]

By your definition England’s first two wins were flukes bcz they were 5th ranked and they were able to beat the 1 ranked team.

Not necessarily. England's victory in first two tests can't be called fluke because England were playing at home on doctored green top and that home advantage significantly reduced the gap between these two teams.

If fifth ranked team England could do that against the no 1 team India in India, It could have been considered as a fluke. Even though there's a massive difference in quality between England and India, England's home advantage and their doctored wickets have allowed them to be competitive against India.

 

[RainMan_]

This I agree with. Too much time taken to acclimatize.

Don't think so. Pitches on which England play Lois tend to be significantly different than those where England play Tests.

India didn't take enough preparation for this tour and didn't play enough practise matches to get themselves acclimatized with the condition and pitch. Even former Indian cricketers bashed players, team management and BCCI for their lack of preparation for this England tour. They made the same mistake in Southafrica too.

Otherwise they would've been 2-1 up by now.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The win itself was impressive but in the grand scheme of things, a number one side should be winning more often...yet they are way behind in the series and need to win a further two games on the trot.

Even in football, Tennis top seed can be surprised by some lower ranked teams, guys. In cricket which depends on more external variables than any other sport just the presence of some cloud is enough to make a team like England a comfortable favorite. Little bit of dryness and turn can make India a significantly more favorite. Didn't Ireland give Pakistan a run for the money? Look at South africa. They played like associate team in the test series against Srilanka. Condition, duke ball, toss they can all add up and make the slightly lower ranked side like England a favorite.

 

[gazza619]

Same reason why we still don't use the steam engine and call the operator when we use the phone.

History has its place. But the present matters more.

So 2001 onwards is present for you?
Why even take into account, we should only count games played in last few months since Champions Trophy final where Pakistan bashed India.

 

[gazza619]

Childish is to club all current test teams in same bracket like you did in some other thread.

I stick to my point. All the top 5 or 6 test teams are home track bullies who barely win overseas...

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Indian team takes too much time to adapt to conditions which is unlike a no 1 ranked team. Same thing happened in SA as well, lost first two and when the series was gone they won the last one.

Same thing is happening here though the series is not completely gone but still took too much time to adapt.

But, credit to India that they try till the end to win a match in an overseas series unlike other teams who become too demoralized in tests if the start isnt good and when they know series is gone.

We don't actually. We take just the same amount of time as anybody else. We don't play practice games against domestic sides these days and that has a lot to do with performing well away.

 

[pks85333]

I know India won the test match and Indian fans like us are really happy. But is it that big a deal though? England is losing few tests at home almost every summer. Even much weaker teams like Pakistan (7th rank) and WI(10th rank) have recently won a test match each in England. So as a no.1 test team this was very much expected from India. What will matter is if India can win this series. If not, this win means nothing.

Since 2000, teams to beat England in Consecutive test at home

2001 Australia
2008 South Africa

It is not easy to beat Eng at home. If India bat decently they can give themselves a chance or else series will be decided in the next test

 

[gazza619]

It's fair because India is the #1 test team and Pak is #7. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which side is better off without playing the other.

Also since the 2000s India has won more matches in Pak than Pak has won in India. Not that that should matter because as I said - #1 and #7. It's too big a gap.

So Mr Rocket scientist, since 1 Jan 2000 Pakistan has played 31 tests at home, 32 at neutral venue. India has played 90 tests at home.
The fake no.1 test team can not compare to Pakistan.

 

[Brodipet_baadshah]

So Mr Rocket scientist, since 1 Jan 2000 Pakistan has played 31 tests at home, 32 at neutral venue. India has played 90 tests at home.
The fake no.1 test team can not compare to Pakistan.

Source please...

 

[gazza619]

Source please...

Howstat.com

 

[topspin]

So Mr Rocket scientist, since 1 Jan 2000 Pakistan has played 31 tests at home, 32 at neutral venue. India has played 90 tests at home.
The fake no.1 test team can not compare to Pakistan.

We're lucky we aren't playing India in tests, they would humiliate us in Asia.

They can't be fake number 1 when they've beaten every team at home (no draws) in the last 4-5 years. If Pakistan had done the same, you would have had a case for the claim of "inflated by home wins".

Pakistan couldn't even beat a minnow like Zimbabwe and they have been getting whitewashed in Aus and SA mercilessly whereas India have been competitive in both of these away tours and been the best touring side in the last 5 years or so. Yes they're nowhere near as good as Australia and WI's great sides but they deserve their number 1 ranking.

Pakistan are not in the same league as Aus, SA, NZ and Eng let alone the number 1 side.