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India is becoming the new Australia of the 2000s

India’s top three in ODIs is better than Australia’s: Rohit is better than Gilchrist, Dhawan is better than Hayden and Kohli is better than Ponting.

However, apart from the top 3, that Australia was far superior in other departments so there is not much of a comparison.
But Australia's top three of Gilchrist, Hayden & Ponting scored runs at a higher average with a better strike rate compared to Rohit/Dhawan/Kohli. Opening pair of gilchrist/Hayden also scored runs at a higher average & SR compared to Rohit/Dhawan.
 
But Australia's top three of Gilchrist, Hayden & Ponting scored runs at a higher average with a better strike rate compared to Rohit/Dhawan/Kohli. Opening pair of gilchrist/Hayden also scored runs at a higher average & SR compared to Rohit/Dhawan.

Kohli has 43 hundreds in 259 innings at an average of 59.

Ponting had 30 hundreds in 365 innings at an average of 42.

Rohit has 29 hundreds in 220 innings at an average of 49.

Gilchrist had 16 hundreds in 279 innings at an average of 36.

Dhawan has 17 hundreds in 139 innings at an average of 45.

Hayden had 10 hundreds in 155 innings at an average of 44.

Strike rates comparison:

Kohli 93, Ponting 80
Rohit 89, Gilchrist 97
Dhawan 94, Hayden 78

Ponting’s strike rate from 2000 to 2007, i.e. the era of Australian dominance, was 84.

Even if you adjust their stats arbitrarily due to the different eras, the overall superior of the Indian trio in terms of numbers cannot be ignored. They are simply better ODI batsmen than them.

Moreover, it is important to consider that ODI wickets have been proper flat since the 2000s, and Gilchrist/Hayden/Ponting played for a team that had the strongest bowling attack by a mile.

I think there are 4 contenders for the greatest top 3 in ODI history:

1. Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli
2. Gilchrist, Hayden, Ponting
3. Haynes, Greenidge, Sir Viv
4. Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid

My pick is 1.
 
Kohli has 43 hundreds in 259 innings at an average of 59.

Ponting had 30 hundreds in 365 innings at an average of 42.

Rohit has 29 hundreds in 220 innings at an average of 49.

Gilchrist had 16 hundreds in 279 innings at an average of 36.

Dhawan has 17 hundreds in 139 innings at an average of 45.

Hayden had 10 hundreds in 155 innings at an average of 44.

Strike rates comparison:

Kohli 93, Ponting 80
Rohit 89, Gilchrist 97
Dhawan 94, Hayden 78

Ponting’s strike rate from 2000 to 2007, i.e. the era of Australian dominance, was 84.

Even if you adjust their stats arbitrarily due to the different eras, the overall superior of the Indian trio in terms of numbers cannot be ignored. They are simply better ODI batsmen than them.

Moreover, it is important to consider that ODI wickets have been proper flat since the 2000s, and Gilchrist/Hayden/Ponting played for a team that had the strongest bowling attack by a mile.

I think there are 4 contenders for the greatest top 3 in ODI history:

1. Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli
2. Gilchrist, Hayden, Ponting
3. Haynes, Greenidge, Sir Viv
4. Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid

My pick is 1.

Not bothered with individual stats.I agree with Rohit & Kohli being better than Hayden/Gilchrist/Ponting.
What I'm saying is Australian opening pair scored runs at a higher average & strike rate.
Their first wicket partnership averages higher. Indian top 3 usually goes on to score big hence them having a higher individual average. But Hayden/Gilchrist pairing has a better average & a better SR than Rohit/Dhawan despite playing in an era where 300+ scored weren't a norm.
 
No one calls this Indian ODI team a GOAT team. They have been an excellent ODI team in the previous decade but they have fallen short of the legendary category because of lack of trophies.

The GOAT title is associated with Kohli’s India in Test cricket not ODI cricket.


The india - England odi - t20 series was a monumental change in indian cricket . Kohli might have finally realised what needs to be done to win

In current era , stacking the batting with top 9 who can fire and fire from word go was what was missing in this team . India missed winning few trophies likely cos the game evolved and Kohli didn’t keep match with it -

India tried wrist spinning combo , put all rounders in , easily the best fielding side but failed to win big trophies . This will change now and I expect india to lift the t20 wc as well as next odi wc .
The only flaw india has not yet corrected is absence of a wrist spinning allrounder . It’s indian Achilles heal and might be the only reason they can loose a final .
 
Good series win.
After being white washed in NZ, loosing the ODI's in Australia, India has won this series at home versus a Root and Morgan less England 2-1. Surely not very far from the greatest Australia.
 
No not at all....this side was Root less....and probably Archer too.....yes India showed character and were better side but apart from Bumrah all were playing....and baring Bhuvi no bowler looked threatening......english spinners out bowl Indians.....
Ri8 now..

Nz
Eng
Aus.
Ind.....in ODIs....

T20s.too more or less same....
 
The india - England odi - t20 series was a monumental change in indian cricket . Kohli might have finally realised what needs to be done to win

In current era , stacking the batting with top 9 who can fire and fire from word go was what was missing in this team . India missed winning few trophies likely cos the game evolved and Kohli didn’t keep match with it -

India tried wrist spinning combo , put all rounders in , easily the best fielding side but failed to win big trophies . This will change now and I expect india to lift the t20 wc as well as next odi wc .
The only flaw india has not yet corrected is absence of a wrist spinning allrounder . It’s indian Achilles heal and might be the only reason they can loose a final .

I don't think t20 WC win is so guaranteeed...and ODI WC long way to go but yes india is moving in ri8 path
 
No not at all....this side was Root less....and probably Archer too.....yes India showed character and were better side but apart from Bumrah all were playing....and baring Bhuvi no bowler looked threatening......english spinners out bowl Indians.....
Ri8 now..

Nz
Eng
Aus.
Ind.....in ODIs....

T20s.too more or less same....


Lol. How are NZ and Australia better ODI teams than India?

We beat Australia 2-1 at home, lost 1-2 away and beat them in the world cup in England.

And we beat NZ 4-1 in NZ when we were at full strength in 2019.... The team that got white washed last year didn't have Rohit, Dhawan and Pandya...
 
Lol at being led by a bottler captain and calling themselves new Australia. Biggest joke. That team was cut above rest and didn't need pitch doctoring, fake concussion replacements and pressuring umpires to win. Surely this thread must have come from some Gen Z kid who never saw the mighty Australian team
 
There really is no excuse for India to not be Australia of 2000s + West Indies of 70s/80s combined plus more. No country in any sport in the world is as set up to utterly and completely dominate in the way Indian cricket is.

If I was an Indian fan I would be very disappointed if India did not dominate ICC events (would expect them to, at the very least, win 2 out of the next 3 world events) and remain number 1 in all formats for the next decade. Anything less is a failure.
 
Lol at being led by a bottler captain and calling themselves new Australia. Biggest joke. That team was cut above rest and didn't need pitch doctoring, fake concussion replacements and pressuring umpires to win. Surely this thread must have come from some Gen Z kid who never saw the mighty Australian team

Most of these fans were introduced to cricket through IPL. That Australian team was pretty ruthless. Anyone who has watched that team play live will not agree with the OP. :inti

main-qimg-9b40950df73b5d6875f675752b33445a
 
Kohli has 43 hundreds in 259 innings at an average of 59.

Ponting had 30 hundreds in 365 innings at an average of 42.

Rohit has 29 hundreds in 220 innings at an average of 49.

Gilchrist had 16 hundreds in 279 innings at an average of 36.

Dhawan has 17 hundreds in 139 innings at an average of 45.

Hayden had 10 hundreds in 155 innings at an average of 44.

Strike rates comparison:

Kohli 93, Ponting 80
Rohit 89, Gilchrist 97
Dhawan 94, Hayden 78

Ponting’s strike rate from 2000 to 2007, i.e. the era of Australian dominance, was 84.

Even if you adjust their stats arbitrarily due to the different eras, the overall superior of the Indian trio in terms of numbers cannot be ignored. They are simply better ODI batsmen than them.

Moreover, it is important to consider that ODI wickets have been proper flat since the 2000s, and Gilchrist/Hayden/Ponting played for a team that had the strongest bowling attack by a mile.

I think there are 4 contenders for the greatest top 3 in ODI history:

1. Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli
2. Gilchrist, Hayden, Ponting
3. Haynes, Greenidge, Sir Viv
4. Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid

My pick is 1.

That looks pretty convincing statistically , but then it’s not really possible to compare players across different eras statistically alone - there are so many factors that are different.

As an example , in Virat and Rohit’s era teams (and not just India) are scoring 300+ more regularly in ODI cricket , and you will thesedays see teams disappointed even after scoring 310-315 knowing they should have easily got 340/350. And teams are chasing such 300 plus targets with ease.

Back in Viv Richards era , a total of 260-270 in an ODI match was seen as a big total and game was almost in the bag if you scored that batting first.

Better wickets , more batsmen friendly game and rules, lower quality of bowling, all translates into higher totals, batsmen scoring more 100s at a faster strike rate.

It’s hypothetical , yes but try to imagine a Viv Richards or even Ricky Ponting making his ODI debut in 2015 in this era of T20/big heavy bats , and you can easily see their batting average and number of centuries being considerably higher than what they ended up with.

And don’t forget 80s/90s, there were great fast bowlers in a number of teams , with pitches , rules and conditions having less favour to batsmen as they do currently - I’ve not yet seen Virat Kohli face the kind of chin music that Marshall, Alan Donald or Wasim Akram could give the batsmen of their eras.

Note that I’m questioning Virat’s ability to cope with such top class bowling , but has he been tested against such top class and hostile fast bowling ?

Not I’ve said bowling , not bowler - Dale Steyn past his best bowling a horrible spell doesn’t count.

Mike Atherton may be seen as a mediocre batsman , but he had to face one of the most hostile spells of fast bowling from Alan Donald many years ago and he earned a lot of respect just for survival.
 
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Dhawan is a nice guy who has not-so-bad record in ICC events. But Kohli upping him like he is some kind of GOAT opener is so artificial. Time to move on from Dhawan; sooner the better for WC2023
 
I am a fan and even I wouldn't go that far. If we include 1999, Australia won 3 world cups in a row, none of them at home and then proceeded to beat just about every team, home and away in both formats at the time. They also produced some of the greatest batsman and fats bowlers of all time. None of this is the case for India.
 
Lol at being led by a bottler captain and calling themselves new Australia. Biggest joke. That team was cut above rest and didn't need pitch doctoring, fake concussion replacements and pressuring umpires to win. Surely this thread must have come from some Gen Z kid who never saw the mighty Australian team

Did you see Ian Chappel's take on this topic in Cricinfo?
 
We are no where close to Ozs, infact while this is probably the most balanced Indian side mostly due to the vastly superior bowling options at our disposal the batting is fairly average in longer formats .
 
Kohli has 43 hundreds in 259 innings at an average of 59.

Ponting had 30 hundreds in 365 innings at an average of 42.

Rohit has 29 hundreds in 220 innings at an average of 49.

Gilchrist had 16 hundreds in 279 innings at an average of 36.

Dhawan has 17 hundreds in 139 innings at an average of 45.

Hayden had 10 hundreds in 155 innings at an average of 44.

Strike rates comparison:

Kohli 93, Ponting 80
Rohit 89, Gilchrist 97
Dhawan 94, Hayden 78

Ponting’s strike rate from 2000 to 2007, i.e. the era of Australian dominance, was 84.

Even if you adjust their stats arbitrarily due to the different eras, the overall superior of the Indian trio in terms of numbers cannot be ignored. They are simply better ODI batsmen than them.

Moreover, it is important to consider that ODI wickets have been proper flat since the 2000s, and Gilchrist/Hayden/Ponting played for a team that had the strongest bowling attack by a mile.

I think there are 4 contenders for the greatest top 3 in ODI history:

1. Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli
2. Gilchrist, Hayden, Ponting
3. Haynes, Greenidge, Sir Viv
4. Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid

My pick is 1.

Listing out strike rates and then doing that comparison is pretty foolhardy exercise.

Firstly the scores expectations during that era was not that high. So there was no need to play at that strike rate.

Secondly Aussie bowling line up was very good and regularly skittling out teams under 220. You don’t need to bat at a 100 SR chasing that target
 
Good series win.
After being white washed in NZ, loosing the ODI's in Australia, India has won this series at home versus a Root and Morgan less England 2-1. Surely not very far from the greatest Australia.

Funniest bit is that it's coming from the fan of the #6th ODI team in ICC rankings :))
 
Funniest bit is that it's coming from the fan of the #6th ODI team in ICC rankings :))

Stupidest logic ever.

By that logic indians can’t comment on most things in life because they’re near bottom of most rankings on per capita basis

It’s not like he’s claiming Pakistanis better than India here.
 
Stupidest logic ever.

By that logic indians can’t comment on most things in life because they’re near bottom of most rankings on per capita basis

It’s not like he’s claiming Pakistanis better than India here.

There's a difference between giving an opinion and making fun of someone. As an Indian, I can comment about Australian cricket. What would however make me look like a fool is if I make fun of Australian cricket.
 
Listing out strike rates and then doing that comparison is pretty foolhardy exercise.

Firstly the scores expectations during that era was not that high. So there was no need to play at that strike rate.

Secondly Aussie bowling line up was very good and regularly skittling out teams under 220. You don’t need to bat at a 100 SR chasing that target

I already stated that the Indian top 3 is so far ahead individually that even arbitrary adjustments based on era etc. would not make much of a difference.

Kohli and Rohit have 17 more hundreds than Gilchrist, Hayden and Ponting put together in far less matches.

As far as strike rate is concerned, Gilchrist managed to bat at a SR of 96 which is why he is among the top 5 greatest ODI openers ever.

But Hayden does not belong in that league. He should have done much better considering the team he played for.
 
That looks pretty convincing statistically , but then it’s not really possible to compare players across different eras statistically alone - there are so many factors that are different.

As an example , in Virat and Rohit’s era teams (and not just India) are scoring 300+ more regularly in ODI cricket , and you will thesedays see teams disappointed even after scoring 310-315 knowing they should have easily got 340/350. And teams are chasing such 300 plus targets with ease.

Back in Viv Richards era , a total of 260-270 in an ODI match was seen as a big total and game was almost in the bag if you scored that batting first.

Better wickets , more batsmen friendly game and rules, lower quality of bowling, all translates into higher totals, batsmen scoring more 100s at a faster strike rate.

It’s hypothetical , yes but try to imagine a Viv Richards or even Ricky Ponting making his ODI debut in 2015 in this era of T20/big heavy bats , and you can easily see their batting average and number of centuries being considerably higher than what they ended up with.

And don’t forget 80s/90s, there were great fast bowlers in a number of teams , with pitches , rules and conditions having less favour to batsmen as they do currently - I’ve not yet seen Virat Kohli face the kind of chin music that Marshall, Alan Donald or Wasim Akram could give the batsmen of their eras.

Note that I’m questioning Virat’s ability to cope with such top class bowling , but has he been tested against such top class and hostile fast bowling ?

Not I’ve said bowling , not bowler - Dale Steyn past his best bowling a horrible spell doesn’t count.

Mike Atherton may be seen as a mediocre batsman , but he had to face one of the most hostile spells of fast bowling from Alan Donald many years ago and he earned a lot of respect just for survival.

Kohli top scored in the most bowling friendly series of all time in South Africa in 2018. It is the only series in history where every single wicket in every single innings fell.

The pitches were complete minefields and he did against an attack of Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel, which is a top class attack by any measure.

De Villiers was the second best batsman in that series.

I would argue that there are no question marks on Kohli’s batsmanship. He is clearly in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting and Viv Richards. How people rank them and in what order is up to them, but there should be no debate over whether Kohli belongs in that league or does not.

Furthermore, if people want to discredit modern ODI batsmen because the rules and the conditions are in their favor: flat pitches, two new balls, short boundaries, big bats, free-hits etc., then they should apply the same logic to the bowlers as well, but they are always uncomfortable in doing so because it contradicts their beliefs.

If Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Warner, Finch, Roy, Bairstow, De Kock have benefited from favorable rules and conditions then the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Marshall, Donald etc. also benefited from favorable rules and conditions.

They had the luxury of bowling on bowling-friendlier pitches, face batsmen with smaller bats, the boundaries were longer, there were no free-hits and the tail-enders were complete bunnies and could barely hold a bat.

Nowadays, even a number 10 and 11 has enough batting skill to score 20-25 on a good day and hit a few boundaries.

Moreover, they were using only one ball and there was very little scrutiny and high-quality cameras so those bowlers got away with a lot of tampering.

They also didn’t have to bowl free-hits after bowling no-balls.

I can imagine someone like Bairstow getting clean bowled by Waqar in ODIs in the late 80s and early 90s with those banana yorkers but I can also imagine Bairstow smashing Waqar all over the park in 2021.

So this cross-era comparison works both ways, unless you think that those bowlers were so skilled and talented that they would have easily adjusted to these flat pitches, big boundaries, big bats, two new balls, free-hits and greater scrutiny on ball-tampering.

Moreover, if you want rate the 80’s and 90’s batsmen higher than today’s batsmen because they had to cope with harder conditions, then you should also rate today’s bowlers higher than the 80’s and 90’s bowlers because they are coping with harder conditions.

So I have no problem with someone arguing that Viv Richards is a much better batsman than Kohli if they also agree that Starc is a much better bowler than Wasim and Cummins is a much better bowler than Marshall.

If Viv Richards played in an era of no free-hits, tough pitches, small bats, big boundaries and one ball, then the likes of Starc and Cummins are playing in an era of free-hits, flat pitches, big bats, small boundaries and two new balls.

So why don’t contemporary bowlers get extra credit and recognition? Why is it blasphemous to apply the reverse-logic?

The issue is that some people are adamant that the quality of batting and bowling have both somehow magically declined even though they have been advancements in sports science, diet plans, fitness, awareness, data analysis etc.

The eventually leads to the conclusion that a lot of the reputation and myths associate with 80’s and 90’s players is largely down to nostalgia. People always have a bias towards the era in which they grew up with.

I grew up in the 90’s and that is when I fell in love with cricket, but if look at it objectively, there is no evidence that the quality of cricket has declined.

The only sensible conclusion is that great players in every generation deserve equal respect and recognition, because they are all products of their respective eras.

It is a myth that the players of 80’s and 90’s would demolish today’s players. If we could somehow develop the technology to pit teams from different eras against each other, a lot of myths and legends will be destroyed and certain results will not hold up to people’s expectations.

For example, Clive’s West Indies is widely regarded as the greatest side of all time, but they will probably get whitewashed in brutal fashion if they were to play Kohli’s India in India.
 
Kohli top scored in the most bowling friendly series of all time in South Africa in 2018. It is the only series in history where every single wicket in every single innings fell.

The pitches were complete minefields and he did against an attack of Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel, which is a top class attack by any measure.

De Villiers was the second best batsman in that series.

I would argue that there are no question marks on Kohli’s batsmanship. He is clearly in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting and Viv Richards. How people rank them and in what order is up to them, but there should be no debate over whether Kohli belongs in that league or does not.

Furthermore, if people want to discredit modern ODI batsmen because the rules and the conditions are in their favor: flat pitches, two new balls, short boundaries, big bats, free-hits etc., then they should apply the same logic to the bowlers as well, but they are always uncomfortable in doing so because it contradicts their beliefs.

If Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Warner, Finch, Roy, Bairstow, De Kock have benefited from favorable rules and conditions then the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Marshall, Donald etc. also benefited from favorable rules and conditions.

They had the luxury of bowling on bowling-friendlier pitches, face batsmen with smaller bats, the boundaries were longer, there were no free-hits and the tail-enders were complete bunnies and could barely hold a bat.

Nowadays, even a number 10 and 11 has enough batting skill to score 20-25 on a good day and hit a few boundaries.

Moreover, they were using only one ball and there was very little scrutiny and high-quality cameras so those bowlers got away with a lot of tampering.

They also didn’t have to bowl free-hits after bowling no-balls.

I can imagine someone like Bairstow getting clean bowled by Waqar in ODIs in the late 80s and early 90s with those banana yorkers but I can also imagine Bairstow smashing Waqar all over the park in 2021.

So this cross-era comparison works both ways, unless you think that those bowlers were so skilled and talented that they would have easily adjusted to these flat pitches, big boundaries, big bats, two new balls, free-hits and greater scrutiny on ball-tampering.

Moreover, if you want rate the 80’s and 90’s batsmen higher than today’s batsmen because they had to cope with harder conditions, then you should also rate today’s bowlers higher than the 80’s and 90’s bowlers because they are coping with harder conditions.

So I have no problem with someone arguing that Viv Richards is a much better batsman than Kohli if they also agree that Starc is a much better bowler than Wasim and Cummins is a much better bowler than Marshall.

If Viv Richards played in an era of no free-hits, tough pitches, small bats, big boundaries and one ball, then the likes of Starc and Cummins are playing in an era of free-hits, flat pitches, big bats, small boundaries and two new balls.

So why don’t contemporary bowlers get extra credit and recognition? Why is it blasphemous to apply the reverse-logic?

The issue is that some people are adamant that the quality of batting and bowling have both somehow magically declined even though they have been advancements in sports science, diet plans, fitness, awareness, data analysis etc.

The eventually leads to the conclusion that a lot of the reputation and myths associate with 80’s and 90’s players is largely down to nostalgia. People always have a bias towards the era in which they grew up with.

I grew up in the 90’s and that is when I fell in love with cricket, but if look at it objectively, there is no evidence that the quality of cricket has declined.

The only sensible conclusion is that great players in every generation deserve equal respect and recognition, because they are all products of their respective eras.

It is a myth that the players of 80’s and 90’s would demolish today’s players. If we could somehow develop the technology to pit teams from different eras against each other, a lot of myths and legends will be destroyed and certain results will not hold up to people’s expectations.

For example, Clive’s West Indies is widely regarded as the greatest side of all time, but they will probably get whitewashed in brutal fashion if they were to play Kohli’s India in India.
I think not even die hard Indian cricket fans would go that far - Kohli’s India to whitewash “in brutal fashion” a West Indies team that has Greenidge/Haynes/Viv Richards/Clive Lloyd in batting and Marshall/Holding/Roberts/Garner as their pace bowling quartet ? Don’t tell me, Bumrah would blow them all away and in between matches provide some coaching and fast bowling tips to Holding and Marshall too perhaps.

You are more then welcome to your opinions, but I would suggest watching some video recordings these West Indian players , and leaving aside any bias or opinion - just witness the skill levels on display , those guys were on another level in terms of their aggression and calibre - and whatever the era expertise and skills with a ball or bat in your hand that is far above those on display by others in current or previous eras even dare I say it will count in every era. And I would say the same applies to Virat Kohli, he has skills as a batsman far superior to even some of the finest batsmen we have seen over the years. Could he be successful against the great bowling attacks of 80s/90s , yes I think so - but let’s not assume that the same also automatically applies to Rohit Sharma or Dhawan.
 
There's a difference between giving an opinion and making fun of someone. As an Indian, I can comment about Australian cricket. What would however make me look like a fool is if I make fun of Australian cricket.

Similarly we can comment on anything.......
 
I think not even die hard Indian cricket fans would go that far - Kohli’s India to whitewash “in brutal fashion” a West Indies team that has Greenidge/Haynes/Viv Richards/Clive Lloyd in batting and Marshall/Holding/Roberts/Garner as their pace bowling quartet ? Don’t tell me, Bumrah would blow them all away and in between matches provide some coaching and fast bowling tips to Holding and Marshall too perhaps.

You are more then welcome to your opinions, but I would suggest watching some video recordings these West Indian players , and leaving aside any bias or opinion - just witness the skill levels on display , those guys were on another level in terms of their aggression and calibre - and whatever the era expertise and skills with a ball or bat in your hand that is far above those on display by others in current or previous eras even dare I say it will count in every era. And I would say the same applies to Virat Kohli, he has skills as a batsman far superior to even some of the finest batsmen we have seen over the years. Could he be successful against the great bowling attacks of 80s/90s , yes I think so - but let’s not assume that the same also automatically applies to Rohit Sharma or Dhawan.

Clive’s West Indies will stand no chance of beating Kohli’s India in India because they did not have a proper spinner.

It is important to note that the 80’s was the worst era for spin bowling. After the retirement/decline of the Indian quartet and before the emergence of Warne, Muralitharan and Kumble in the early 90’s, Qadir was the only top spinner around.

The West Indies that dominated India in India in 1983 played against a very poor spin attack.

That Indian team will stand no chance against Kohli’s India or Dhoni/Ganguly India’s. Even Azharuddin’s India will comfortably beat them.

Clive West Indies will beat Kohli’s India at home with their phenomenal pace attack, but their pace attack will not be able to do much against Indian batsmen on Indian wickets and more importantly, their batsmen, including Viv Richards, will definitely struggle big time against Ashwin/Jadeja on Indian pitches.

Ashwin is a better spinner than anyone Clive’s West Indies ever faced.

That is why I wish we could get a magic lamp and pit the great players of today and the 80s against each other because of a lot of romanticism, myths and exaggerations fueled by nostalgia that are attached with the past players will be exposed.

These myths are not limited to them only. This current generation of cricketers will also become immortalized 40-50 years from now when people from the 2010-2020 generation will refuse to acknowledge that the great players of 2050-2060 are capable of competing with the likes of Kohli, Smith, Ashwin, Bumrah, Cummins, Anderson etc.
 
Most of these fans were introduced to cricket through IPL. That Australian team was pretty ruthless. Anyone who has watched that team play live will not agree with the OP. :inti

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Absolutely. That team won everything in its golden years. Whats has this new Australia achieved? No ICC trophy since 2013 lol. Ponting was amazing in pressure games and KO matches of ICC tournaments along with his whole team. However, we see KOhli crumbling in KO most times. If that Aussie team lost a match leave alone a series it used to be news. Better to compare this Indian side to SA of 2007-2014 who were chokers
 
There's a difference between giving an opinion and making fun of someone. As an Indian, I can comment about Australian cricket. What would however make me look like a fool is if I make fun of Australian cricket.

1. He was not making fun. He literally stated facts lol.

2. Even if he was making fun your point doesn’t have merit.

Your argument would only have merit if he was saying what he said and then somehow claiming Pakistan are better or could have done better or somehow implying that.
 
Kohli top scored in the most bowling friendly series of all time in South Africa in 2018. It is the only series in history where every single wicket in every single innings fell.

The pitches were complete minefields and he did against an attack of Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel, which is a top class attack by any measure.

De Villiers was the second best batsman in that series.

I would argue that there are no question marks on Kohli’s batsmanship. He is clearly in the same class as Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting and Viv Richards. How people rank them and in what order is up to them, but there should be no debate over whether Kohli belongs in that league or does not.

Furthermore, if people want to discredit modern ODI batsmen because the rules and the conditions are in their favor: flat pitches, two new balls, short boundaries, big bats, free-hits etc., then they should apply the same logic to the bowlers as well, but they are always uncomfortable in doing so because it contradicts their beliefs.

If Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan, Warner, Finch, Roy, Bairstow, De Kock have benefited from favorable rules and conditions then the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Marshall, Donald etc. also benefited from favorable rules and conditions.

They had the luxury of bowling on bowling-friendlier pitches, face batsmen with smaller bats, the boundaries were longer, there were no free-hits and the tail-enders were complete bunnies and could barely hold a bat.

Nowadays, even a number 10 and 11 has enough batting skill to score 20-25 on a good day and hit a few boundaries.

Moreover, they were using only one ball and there was very little scrutiny and high-quality cameras so those bowlers got away with a lot of tampering.

They also didn’t have to bowl free-hits after bowling no-balls.

I can imagine someone like Bairstow getting clean bowled by Waqar in ODIs in the late 80s and early 90s with those banana yorkers but I can also imagine Bairstow smashing Waqar all over the park in 2021.

So this cross-era comparison works both ways, unless you think that those bowlers were so skilled and talented that they would have easily adjusted to these flat pitches, big boundaries, big bats, two new balls, free-hits and greater scrutiny on ball-tampering.

Moreover, if you want rate the 80’s and 90’s batsmen higher than today’s batsmen because they had to cope with harder conditions, then you should also rate today’s bowlers higher than the 80’s and 90’s bowlers because they are coping with harder conditions.

So I have no problem with someone arguing that Viv Richards is a much better batsman than Kohli if they also agree that Starc is a much better bowler than Wasim and Cummins is a much better bowler than Marshall.

If Viv Richards played in an era of no free-hits, tough pitches, small bats, big boundaries and one ball, then the likes of Starc and Cummins are playing in an era of free-hits, flat pitches, big bats, small boundaries and two new balls.

So why don’t contemporary bowlers get extra credit and recognition? Why is it blasphemous to apply the reverse-logic?

The issue is that some people are adamant that the quality of batting and bowling have both somehow magically declined even though they have been advancements in sports science, diet plans, fitness, awareness, data analysis etc.

The eventually leads to the conclusion that a lot of the reputation and myths associate with 80’s and 90’s players is largely down to nostalgia. People always have a bias towards the era in which they grew up with.

I grew up in the 90’s and that is when I fell in love with cricket, but if look at it objectively, there is no evidence that the quality of cricket has declined.

The only sensible conclusion is that great players in every generation deserve equal respect and recognition, because they are all products of their respective eras.

It is a myth that the players of 80’s and 90’s would demolish today’s players. If we could somehow develop the technology to pit teams from different eras against each other, a lot of myths and legends will be destroyed and certain results will not hold up to people’s expectations.

For example, Clive’s West Indies is widely regarded as the greatest side of all time, but they will probably get whitewashed in brutal fashion if they were to play Kohli’s India in India.

Totally agree on the West Indies team . They were fearsome in that era but today sides have 140 k plus bowlers stacked . The current aussie pace attack is as quick and lethal as any I have seen - the West Indies team had no quality spinner and I have always found the Australian team of the 2000s as the no 1 team of all time due to the presence of warne , mcgrath and gilchrist at Same time - much like india is about to have pant bumrah and ashwin at same time with Jadeja / axar complementing them

The truth is modern day cricketers are fitter , disciplined and professional . They get paid so well that match fixing has much decreased . And the evolution of third umpire , ball tracking etc has actually made it more challenging to score imo .

People are delusional to think 80s team were best etc . I apply the same question to bedi and other indian spinners of 70 s . They were good but legend has made them great etc and poor kumble used to be perennially underrated
 
Anyone who has watched the Australia of '00s would dare not compare the current Indian team with them.
 
Unless we start winning WC, CL etc consistently, there's no comparison with that Aussie side. I personally don't think we'll see a side like that ever in near future.
 
Totally agree on the West Indies team . They were fearsome in that era but today sides have 140 k plus bowlers stacked . The current aussie pace attack is as quick and lethal as any I have seen - the West Indies team had no quality spinner and I have always found the Australian team of the 2000s as the no 1 team of all time due to the presence of warne , mcgrath and gilchrist at Same time - much like india is about to have pant bumrah and ashwin at same time with Jadeja / axar complementing them

The truth is modern day cricketers are fitter , disciplined and professional . They get paid so well that match fixing has much decreased . And the evolution of third umpire , ball tracking etc has actually made it more challenging to score imo .

People are delusional to think 80s team were best etc . I apply the same question to bedi and other indian spinners of 70 s . They were good but legend has made them great etc and poor kumble used to be perennially underrated

It is all nostalgia. You would often see old people say that life was better when they were young, but they only feel that way because you always have attachment with the time period in which you grew up. It is part of human nature.

Cricket became a professional sport from 1960s onwards and there were some amazing players in that era as well. There is no doubt that the likes of Marshall, Holding, Viv Richards, Gavaskar, Greg Chappell, Border, Imran, Botham, Kapil, Hadlee, Bedi, Qadir etc. would be great players even today. However, to claim that they were far superior than the best players today and would beat them easily is complete exaggeration.

You will always have great players in every era. It is the same in every sport and cricket is no different. Unfortunately, cricket is the only sport where the myths and exaggerations with the older era players reaches comical level.
 
It is all nostalgia. You would often see old people say that life was better when they were young, but they only feel that way because you always have attachment with the time period in which you grew up. It is part of human nature.

Cricket became a professional sport from 1960s onwards and there were some amazing players in that era as well. There is no doubt that the likes of Marshall, Holding, Viv Richards, Gavaskar, Greg Chappell, Border, Imran, Botham, Kapil, Hadlee, Bedi, Qadir etc. would be great players even today. However, to claim that they were far superior than the best players today and would beat them easily is complete exaggeration.

You will always have great players in every era. It is the same in every sport and cricket is no different. Unfortunately, cricket is the only sport where the myths and exaggerations with the older era players reaches comical level.

I agree & this especially reaches crazy heights where bowlers of those eras are concerned. The bowlers back then had it easy compared to this era - no crazy schedule, no variety in pitches, no drs & close camera angles, no neutral umpires, no rules loaded in favor of batsmen (like 2 balls an innings, powerplay, 1 bouncer rule) . Always wondered how the stats of the greats of those eras would have looked if they bowled in this age.
 
I agree & this especially reaches crazy heights where bowlers of those eras are concerned. The bowlers back then had it easy compared to this era - no crazy schedule, no variety in pitches, no drs & close camera angles, no neutral umpires, no rules loaded in favor of batsmen (like 2 balls an innings, powerplay, 1 bouncer rule) . Always wondered how the stats of the greats of those eras would have looked if they bowled in this age.

Absolutely.

People are quick to discredit modern batsmen because of flat pitches, two new balls, big bats, small boundaries, free-hits etc., but when you ask them to apply the same logic to the bowlers of 70’s and 80’s who had the rules and conditions in their favor, they get uncomfortable and start contradicting themselves.
 
Anyone who has watched the Australia of '00s would dare not compare the current Indian team with them.
Agree with this. I've been a witness to that Australian team and our current team isn't anywhere near that Australian team.

Let alone that Australian team, we'd have done really well if we can emulate SA team during the same decade, minus it's record in trophies.
 
Funniest bit is that it's coming from the fan of the #6th ODI team in ICC rankings :))

Frustration is evident. Cant digest India's dominance that too without some of its first choice players not available. What India has achieved with its second string players in Aus will remain a dream for other teams.
 
1. He was not making fun. He literally stated facts lol.

2. Even if he was making fun your point doesn’t have merit.

Your argument would only have merit if he was saying what he said and then somehow claiming Pakistan are better or could have done better or somehow implying that.

He clearly didnt mention the victories that India achieved on Aus tour and even India were without its first choice players against Aus and Eng. Thats also a fact. What he did was that he stated only half of the facts to put Indian team in a bad light. Its same like mentioning one defeat and leaving out 5 victories just to make a team's performance look bad. What a chidish effort ?
 
ATG Australia side played 4 test series in India and won only 1 / lost 3.

2001 - lost 2-1 under Steve Waugh
2004 - won 1-2 under Ponting
2008 - lost 2-0 under Ponting
2010 - lost 2-0 under Ponting

Special mention of 2007 monkey gate series where they would have lost at home as well and only cheated their way out to save face.

Kohli's India played 3 test series in Australia and already won 2 / lost 1.

So in a sense, current Indian team already surpassed that ATG Australian side by playing 1 series less.
 
Having last won an ICC Event in 2013, the talk of being an ATG side is futile. No one will agree that a side is an ATG without any ICC trophies to show for it.

Also with so much of cricket being played, I wonder if some teams are showing their real hand only in big events, there is a lot of chopping and changing and experimentation done in bilateral LOI series' these days.

Tests, as I said before we need to win series in at least two of NZL, RSA and ENG, then surely we can claim to be an ATG side.
 
2021 is a huge year for this Indian team.

If we win....

WTC Final
Test Series in England
T20 World Cup
Test series in South Africa


Then we should be considered half as good as the 2000s Aussies. :amla
 
2021 is a huge year for this Indian team.

If we win....

WTC Final
Test Series in England
T20 World Cup
Test series in South Africa


Then we should be considered half as good as the 2000s Aussies. :amla

Will gladly take two out of those four.
 
Will gladly take two out of those four.


We'll most certainly win in South Africa. We have to play some dross level cricket (by our standards) to not end up winning that series.

But yeah... winning one out of the remaining three will make it 3/5 stars for us this year (Australia series being the other one). Take that with both ends.
 
2021 is a huge year for this Indian team.

If we win....

WTC Final
Test Series in England
T20 World Cup
Test series in South Africa


Then we should be considered half as good as the 2000s Aussies. :amla

WTC and T20 WC are important.
At least we need to win one of those.
 
Threads like this see two extremes - folks like Mamoon who'll go to the ends of the earth to cheerlead the Indian team, including discrediting the great teams of the past, and folks like Junaids who'll do anything to discredit India's achievements, and claim cricket was better in black and white. I'll break this into two posts - first focusing on comparing eras which is extremely difficult due to continual evolution of cricket's rulebook unlike other sports like football where generally the fundamentals of the game stay the same.

1) DRS - No doubt WI and Australia's home records would've taken a hit with DRS. WI vs Pakistan in 1988, and Australia vs India in 2008 are two examples where these ATG sides benefited from poor umpiring. The old technique of bat and pad together against spinners would be highly dangerous today. However it works both ways and their bowlers would've had recourse to challenge biased umpiring overseas.

2) Pitches and balls - Draws constituted 38% of Tests between 1877-1999, down to 21% since 2000 with only a quarter of Tests ending on Day 5. Although that's partly due to more attacking cricket in the T20 era, it's no less down to pitches generally being more result oriented. Faisalabad and the Antigua Recreation Ground to give two examples were notoriously flat wickets. So I disagree modern great batsmen are just filling their boots - likes of Virat Kohli would've thrived in any era.

However in one day cricket pitches are universally flat. Two new balls has almost eliminated reverse swing, and the Kookaburra provides little conventional swing. Rare occasions we've seen bowler friendly surfaces (Lord's 2017 ODI - England vs South Africa; Pune 2016 T20 - India vs Sri Lanka), these powerful teams collapsed. Comparing the numbers of Gilchrist, Hayden and Ponting to today's top orders therefore doesn't make sense when par scores were typically around 250-270 on more variable surfaces and with use of one new ball - which wasn't always the Kookaburra as the Dukes was used in 1999 World Cup, and not always a white ball as red ball ODIs were played well into the 1990s !

Their inferior numbers aren't because they were any less skilled (these three were amongst the top batsmen in the world of their era) but because batsmen's acceptance of risk was lower and the context of ODI cricket at that time.

Conversely, are bowlers more skilled now than before ? Probably more accurate to say they operate differently because of these rule changes. Someone like Dwayne Bravo or Lewis Gregory will literally bowl change-ups six balls an over. The idea of just hitting a hard length is a non-starter - batsmen have too many shots. The leading one day bowlers today do a sterling job of succeeding in lopsided conditions. However by the same token, if batsmen are taking on more risk pursuing larger totals - bowlers will benefit from batsmen overattacking and giving their wicket away.

3) Ball tampering and bouncers - now with two dozen HD cameras at every match, no doubt historical sides got away with illegal methods that are impossible today. However I'm unsure reverse swing was as critical to the bowling strategy of WI and Aus as say Pakistan where our greats got away with murder, and our home umpires turned a blind eye.

Finally, this idea the WI bounced teams out to #1 is overblown. The one bouncer rule was introduced in 1991 - WI remained unbeaten in Test series for another four years afterwards ! Slow, low venues like Trinidad and Guyana never encouraged short pitched bowling either.

If you were too lazy to read all that, the sunmary is the truth is more nuanced than the nostalgics and cheerleaders make out.
 
1) DRS - No doubt WI and Australia's home records would've taken a hit with DRS. WI vs Pakistan in 1988, and Australia vs India in 2008 are two examples where these ATG sides benefited from poor umpiring. The old technique of bat and pad together against spinners would be highly dangerous today. However it works both ways and their bowlers would've had recourse to challenge biased umpiring overseas.

I suspect the great West Indies and Australian teams would have benefited from DRS more than otherwise. I certainly don't think for example that the West Indies would have lost in New Zealand in 1980 if the umpiring wasn't biased. Similarly, I feel that Australia would have won in India in 2001 and the 2005 Ashes if a few decisions went their way.
 
Coming onto comparing where this Indian Test team ranks in history. Again, you have to consider different contexts, rule changes etc that make comparing eras futile. Therefore without being able to equalise all the variables, we can only compare how that team fared against their peers who operated under the SAME conditions to gauge their strength.

Even if all things were equal, Virat Kohli’s Test captaincy is still in progress so it’s unfair to India. How does one even draw a timeframe for comparison when WI’s era of dominance lasted 15-20 years, Australia’s lasted about 9 years, spanning multiple captains, while Kohli’s captained for just over 6 years. How do we compare one captain with the combined efforts of two or three ?

Professional stattos will do a better attempt than my armchair efforts, but to make things simple, let’s stick to Clive Lloyd, Steve Waugh and Virat Kohli/Ajinkya Rahane so we at least get a roughly equivalent number of Tests, and most consider these timeframes as those sides’ peaks.

Clive Lloyd’s West Indies (1974-1985):

Played 74. Won 36. Lost 12. Drew 26. W/L = 3.

The second best team in that time was Pakistan with W/L of 1.466 so the W/L gap between 1st and 2nd was 1.534.

Steve Waugh’s Australia (1999-2004)

Played 57. Won 41. Lost 9. Drew 7. W/L = 4.555.

The second best team in that time was South Africa with W/L of 2.636 so the W/L gap between 1st and 2nd was 1.919.

Virat Kohli/Rahane’s India (2014-)

Played 65. Won 40. Lost 14. Drew 11. W/L = 2.857.

The second best team in this time is New Zealand with W/L of 1.800 so the W/L gap between 1st and 2nd is 1.057.

What to conclude ? Current Indian team doesn’t actually fare too badly so Pakistan fans must put nationalism aside and accept India have built fantastic depth in all areas that belongs with the great sides of history. However one must still respect today’s India is not quite comparable with those sides – WI went 15 years unbeaten in all Test series while Australia defeated every team home and away. Even accounting for different contexts, those are insane achievements so one should not discredit their legacies to pump up another side, and vice versa.
 
I suspect the great West Indies and Australian teams would have benefited from DRS more than otherwise. I certainly don't think for example that the West Indies would have lost in New Zealand in 1980 if the umpiring wasn't biased. Similarly, I feel that Australia would have won in India in 2001 and the 2005 Ashes if a few decisions went their way.
We'd have won in Australia in 2003-04, had umpiring not been atrocious especially in SCG test. 2007-08, everyone knows.

Even our series in Australia in 1999-00 series saw biased umpiring.

1991-92 series saw extremely biased umpiring by Australian umpires.
 
If India would have won in two of England, South Africa and New Zealand, they would have been comparable to West Indies and Australia.

Since they did not, they cannot be considered at their level. However, they have greater achievements than other Asian Test sides of the past and are rightfully considered the GOAT Asian Test team.

In ODIs, their legacy is less significant. They are nowhere near West Indies and Australia and are not the GOAT Asian ODI side.

They are the second best ODI team of the last 5-6 years after England. If they win the 2023 World Cup, they will be considered at the same level.
 
The thread is too early for its time. We were not a great team in 2017.

If someone makes a thread in 2020 after Australia series especially after the kind of humiliation Pant has served, then the thread will have a valid point and it will be only seen in the coming future if they can match it or not.

I don't think Indian team will match the level of Australian and West Indies team but has a chance to come out as a comfortable third best and only behind the first two.
 
That Australian team won 3 world cups in a row. 2 of them without dropping a game in entire tournament!
When India wins two world cups in a row, we can dream. I would let go of that stat of not dropping a game just for the sake of dreaming.

Long way to go guys. Cool down.
 
In Test cricket, India will beat the great Australian and West Indies team in India and Asian conditions in general.

They might lose a match per series but over the course of the series, they will prevail.

Outside Asia, West Indies and Australia will beat Kohli’s India.
 
Coming onto comparing where this Indian Test team ranks in history. Again, you have to consider different contexts, rule changes etc that make comparing eras futile. Therefore without being able to equalise all the variables, we can only compare how that team fared against their peers who operated under the SAME conditions to gauge their strength.

Even if all things were equal, Virat Kohli’s Test captaincy is still in progress so it’s unfair to India. How does one even draw a timeframe for comparison when WI’s era of dominance lasted 15-20 years, Australia’s lasted about 9 years, spanning multiple captains, while Kohli’s captained for just over 6 years. How do we compare one captain with the combined efforts of two or three ?

Professional stattos will do a better attempt than my armchair efforts, but to make things simple, let’s stick to Clive Lloyd, Steve Waugh and Virat Kohli/Ajinkya Rahane so we at least get a roughly equivalent number of Tests, and most consider these timeframes as those sides’ peaks.

Clive Lloyd’s West Indies (1974-1985):

Played 74. Won 36. Lost 12. Drew 26. W/L = 3.

The second best team in that time was Pakistan with W/L of 1.466 so the W/L gap between 1st and 2nd was 1.534.

Steve Waugh’s Australia (1999-2004)

Played 57. Won 41. Lost 9. Drew 7. W/L = 4.555.

The second best team in that time was South Africa with W/L of 2.636 so the W/L gap between 1st and 2nd was 1.919.

Virat Kohli/Rahane’s India (2014-)

Played 65. Won 40. Lost 14. Drew 11. W/L = 2.857.

The second best team in this time is New Zealand with W/L of 1.800 so the W/L gap between 1st and 2nd is 1.057.

What to conclude ? Current Indian team doesn’t actually fare too badly so Pakistan fans must put nationalism aside and accept India have built fantastic depth in all areas that belongs with the great sides of history. However one must still respect today’s India is not quite comparable with those sides – WI went 15 years unbeaten in all Test series while Australia defeated every team home and away. Even accounting for different contexts, those are insane achievements so one should not discredit their legacies to pump up another side, and vice versa.

Rahane has not captained enough matches and has not had enough influence as captain to be mentioned alongside Kohli.

He has nothing to do with the success of this Indian team which is all down to Kohli’s aggression and Shastri’s motivation.
 
The thread is too early for its time. We were not a great team in 2017.

If someone makes a thread in 2020 after Australia series especially after the kind of humiliation Pant has served, then the thread will have a valid point and it will be only seen in the coming future if they can match it or not.

I don't think Indian team will match the level of Australian and West Indies team but has a chance to come out as a comfortable third best and only behind the first two.

To become the 3rd best Test team of all time, the current Indian team will have to surpass Smith's South Africa. Tough but not impossible.
 
India is already as good as Great Aus and WI provided it plays only at home.
I think i will be a long long time till we see a team winning both Home and Away on a consistent basis.
 
To become the 3rd best Test team of all time, the current Indian team will have to surpass Smith's South Africa. Tough but not impossible.

An average home team like Smith’s South Africa does not need any surpassing.

They lost home Tests to West Indies in 2007 and Sri Lanka in 2011, also failed to beat England at home twice.

They got smashed in Sri Lanka twice and failed to win a series in India twice by bottling a 1-0 series lead with insipid performances in the final Test. They won the toss on both occasions and batted first which showed their lack of ruthless mentality.

They won in Pakistan in 2007 but that was a very Pakistan side. They lost to a stronger Pakistan in 2003.

They won in Australia twice, but they were weak Australian teams especially when it comes to bowling. The Australian attack that lost to India consecutively is far superior.

Moreover, it is easier for South Africa to win in Australia than it is for India because the Australian conditions are similar to South African conditions but completely different to Indian conditions.

Winning in Australia for India is like winning in India for South Africa, and South Africa couldn’t manage it.

Had they won in 2008 or 2010, it would have been equivalent to India winning in Australia but they bottled series leads on both occasions.

Winning in England twice against Vaughan and Strauss’ teams were great achievements, but not greater than India winning twice in Australia and once with their reserve players.

Also, for South Africa, winning in England is easier compared to India winning in Australia, because the English conditions are similar to South African conditions.

Kohli’s India is already a greater team than Smith’s South Africa.

Smith’s South Africa would get smashed by Kohli’s India in India, but considering how Smith’s South Africa failed to win a home series against Dhoni’s India in 2010-11, a team that was inferior to Kohli’s India, there is a greater chance of Kohli’s India getting a positive result in South Africa against Smith’s team than vice-versa.
 
An average home team like Smith’s South Africa does not need any surpassing.

They lost home Tests to West Indies in 2007 and Sri Lanka in 2011, also failed to beat England at home twice.

They got smashed in Sri Lanka twice and failed to win a series in India twice by bottling a 1-0 series lead with insipid performances in the final Test. They won the toss on both occasions and batted first which showed their lack of ruthless mentality.

They won in Pakistan in 2007 but that was a very Pakistan side. They lost to a stronger Pakistan in 2003.

They won in Australia twice, but they were weak Australian teams especially when it comes to bowling. The Australian attack that lost to India consecutively is far superior.

Moreover, it is easier for South Africa to win in Australia than it is for India because the Australian conditions are similar to South African conditions but completely different to Indian conditions.

Winning in Australia for India is like winning in India for South Africa, and South Africa couldn’t manage it.

Had they won in 2008 or 2010, it would have been equivalent to India winning in Australia but they bottled series leads on both occasions.

Winning in England twice against Vaughan and Strauss’ teams were great achievements, but not greater than India winning twice in Australia and once with their reserve players.

Also, for South Africa, winning in England is easier compared to India winning in Australia, because the English conditions are similar to South African conditions.

Kohli’s India is already a greater team than Smith’s South Africa.

Smith’s South Africa would get smashed by Kohli’s India in India, <B>but considering how Smith’s South Africa failed to win a home series against Dhoni’s India in 2010-11, a team that was inferior to Kohli’s India, there is a greater chance of Kohli’s India getting a positive result in South Africa against Smith’s team than vice-versa</B>.

Weird comparison. I would say given how Kohli's India failed to beat Faf's South Africa in 2018 in SA, their chances of beating Smith's SA is perhaps improbable.
 
Weird comparison. I would say given how Kohli's India failed to beat Faf's South Africa in 2018 in SA, their chances of beating Smith's SA is perhaps improbable.

That series was an anomaly because it was played on the most bowling-friendly pitches in history where every wicket in every innings fell, something that has never happened before or after.

Chasing in the fourth innings was impossible in that series, and it was down to whoever won the toss and batted first.

Had Kohli won two tosses, India would have won 2-0. If Faf would have won the toss in the third Test as well, India would have been swept 3-0.

Faf’s South Africa could have beaten 2000s Australia on those pitches by winning the toss. They were complete minefields.
 
Weird comparison. I would say given how Kohli's India failed to beat Faf's South Africa in 2018 in SA, their chances of beating Smith's SA is perhaps improbable.
This is correct. We won't have beaten that SA in SA. Our current batting isn't good enough to make more than 200 in any of the innings against that SA bowling lineup.
 
Rahane has not captained enough matches and has not had enough influence as captain to be mentioned alongside Kohli.

He has nothing to do with the success of this Indian team which is all down to Kohli’s aggression and Shastri’s motivation.

I know but I wanted to be clear I was including Rahane's matches as stand-in skipper in Kohli's overall number in order to compare him to Lloyd and Waugh.
 
That series was an anomaly because it was played on the most bowling-friendly pitches in history where every wicket in every innings fell, something that has never happened before or after.

Chasing in the fourth innings was impossible in that series, and it was down to whoever won the toss and batted first.

Had Kohli won two tosses, India would have won 2-0. If Faf would have won the toss in the third Test as well, India would have been swept 3-0.

Faf’s South Africa could have beaten 2000s Australia on those pitches by winning the toss. They were complete minefields.

Come on man, tosses are just an excuse. Rahane lost all three tosses in Australia tour and the only toss that India won in that series was in Adelaide and you know the result of the series. Need to move on with the toss excuse.

Also, India lost in England and New Zealand too. Point is when you are giving excuses of toss, that ultimately tells that it is a very good team but not yet a truly great one. Need to come up with a few more performances overseas( atleast series draws if not win) then only the comparison will be fair.
 
We'd have won in Australia in 2003-04, had umpiring not been atrocious especially in SCG test. 2007-08, everyone knows.

Even our series in Australia in 1999-00 series saw biased umpiring.

1991-92 series saw extremely biased umpiring by Australian umpires.
Harbhajan singh got the calcutta hattrick in 01 with a ball pitching outside leg & a bump catch. But you wont mention it obviously.
99-2000 series India didn't even stand a chance against Aussies. futile to mention that series.
04 scg, India were setting their fielders in boundaries in the 5th afternoon to avoid defeat despite scoring 700+ in the 1st innings. Not sure how India were to win it.
 
That series was an anomaly because it was played on the most bowling-friendly pitches in history where every wicket in every innings fell, something that has never happened before or after.

Chasing in the fourth innings was impossible in that series, and it was down to whoever won the toss and batted first.

Had Kohli won two tosses, India would have won 2-0. If Faf would have won the toss in the third Test as well, India would have been swept 3-0.

Faf’s South Africa could have beaten 2000s Australia on those pitches by winning the toss. They were complete minefields.

Peak South Africa couldn't beat a washed up Australia in SA before sandpaper incident. Not sure how they would've beaten 2000s Australia with a has been 2018 version of Steyn, Morkel, Philander and a Rookie Radada. 2000s Australia beat Grame Smith's team 5-0 in two series. A depleted post 07 Australia under Ricky also beat Grame Smith's SA in SA.
 
This is correct. We won't have beaten that SA in SA. Our current batting isn't good enough to make more than 200 in any of the innings against that SA bowling lineup.

Our win in Australia 2020 is a legendary win, one for the ages and arguably greatest ever but aside of that win, we do not have enough series wins or draw to get rated above say, South African team of 2007-14. There needs to be a consistency which is lacking and hence we still have some way to go to be considered a comfortable third best side of all-time.
 
Harbhajan singh got the calcutta hattrick in 01 with a ball pitching outside leg & a bump catch. But you wont mention it obviously.
99-2000 series India didn't even stand a chance against Aussies. futile to mention that series.
04 scg, India were setting their fielders in boundaries in the 5th afternoon to avoid defeat despite scoring 700+ in the 1st innings. Not sure how India were to win it.
No need to be salty over Indian achievements. Lol, bump catch. Do I need to tell whose speciality is bump catches?

Needless to say, you didn't watch any of those series, so no need to pass sermons over what you don't have any idea about!
 
I highly doubt we will ever get dominant teams such as Australia 00s and West Indies 70s/80s anymore.

I remember it was a big deal if Australia lost a match, let alone a series back then. The freaks won two WCs in a row, without dropping a single game. I don’t see any team in the current era even coming close to such aura.
 
Though this Indian team is by far the best in the world currently by a country mile it can nowhere be compared to the Aussies from late 90s to 2000s. As a Cricket fan who grew up watching cricket in 80s and 90s I still remember how intimidating they were.

1n 2001 the Aussies came to conquer the final frontier with 17 back to back victories behind them. They almost conquered it but failed to the brilliant rearguard action by VVS and Dravid. After that fightback the Indian team gained the confidence to win the series. Though they still achieved to win a series in India a few years later under Adam Gilchrist.

Not only were the Aussies champions in test cricket but also in ODIs too winning 3 WCs back to back. I am not sure if any team can replicate this.

This year is a litmus test for Kohli and his band of boys. The ICC Test Championship, England series, t20 WC and finally the SA tour. If they can manage to win all of these, which my no means is an easy task, then they can be compared to the Aussies of 2000s. If not just by a great tour to Australia and home series wins cannot equate them with the Aussie invincibles.
 
We are.living in an era where 3 of the top 9 have their best LOI team ever. Ind, Eng and NZ. No one can dominate like the Aussies in 2000s with such a competition. Even though the aussies aren't their best team ever, they are always competitive making this a 4 way tie. Any one of these teams can win against the other any day and that's why cricket is more fun these days compared to the times of Aussie dominance where their losses were more of a fluke wins of the opponents.
 
Kohli’s India is the greatest Asian Test team of all time. As Test captain, Kohli is the greatest in Asian history.

To be comparable to Australia/West indies, they will have to win the WTC Final and also win in England this year and in New Zealand on their next tour.

India are scheduled to tour South Africa at the end of this year, but South Africa are no longer a top team and winning there now will not have a big impact.

Moreover, India are not scheduled to tour New Zealand any time soon and by the time they tour next time, quite of a few of the current players might retire or might be in decline.

Nevertheless, they have already achieved more than any other Asian Test side in history so their legacy is set in stone. They have nothing left to achieve.

In ODIs, they have missed the boat of reaching the level of Australia/West Indies even if they win the 2023 World Cup.

They needed to win at least two ODI trophies to be comparable to them. The last World Cup was always England’s to lose, but India should have definitely won the 2017 Champions Trophy especially when they avoided playing England who stumbled in the semifinal.

Losing the final to a bang average team like Pakistan was unforgivable. Sure Pakistan had all the luck, but the gap in quality between the two sides was huge and all India needed was bring their B game and they would have walked all over Pakistan.

Unfortunately for India, they had a complete meltdown and most of the players had the worst game of their lives.
 
Kohli’s India is the greatest Asian Test team of all time. As Test captain, Kohli is the greatest in Asian history.

To be comparable to Australia/West indies, they will have to win the WTC Final and also win in England this year and in New Zealand on their next tour.

India are scheduled to tour South Africa at the end of this year, but South Africa are no longer a top team and winning there now will not have a big impact.

Moreover, India are not scheduled to tour New Zealand any time soon and by the time they tour next time, quite of a few of the current players might retire or might be in decline.

Nevertheless, they have already achieved more than any other Asian Test side in history so their legacy is set in stone. They have nothing left to achieve.

In ODIs, they have missed the boat of reaching the level of Australia/West Indies even if they win the 2023 World Cup.

They needed to win at least two ODI trophies to be comparable to them. The last World Cup was always England’s to lose, but India should have definitely won the 2017 Champions Trophy especially when they avoided playing England who stumbled in the semifinal.

Losing the final to a bang average team like Pakistan was unforgivable. Sure Pakistan had all the luck, but the gap in quality between the two sides was huge and all India needed was bring their B game and they would have walked all over Pakistan.

Unfortunately for India, they had a complete meltdown and most of the players had the worst game of their lives.

Current Indian team is not even better than the Pak team of the late 90s

And Imran is the best captain of all time (not just Asian). Get your facts right.
 
Kohli’s India is the greatest Asian Test team of all time. As Test captain, Kohli is the greatest in Asian history.

To be comparable to Australia/West indies, they will have to win the WTC Final and also win in England this year and in New Zealand on their next tour.

India are scheduled to tour South Africa at the end of this year, but South Africa are no longer a top team and winning there now will not have a big impact.

Moreover, India are not scheduled to tour New Zealand any time soon and by the time they tour next time, quite of a few of the current players might retire or might be in decline.

Nevertheless, they have already achieved more than any other Asian Test side in history so their legacy is set in stone. They have nothing left to achieve.

In ODIs, they have missed the boat of reaching the level of Australia/West Indies even if they win the 2023 World Cup.

They needed to win at least two ODI trophies to be comparable to them. The last World Cup was always England’s to lose, but India should have definitely won the 2017 Champions Trophy especially when they avoided playing England who stumbled in the semifinal.

Losing the final to a bang average team like Pakistan was unforgivable. Sure Pakistan had all the luck, but the gap in quality between the two sides was huge and all India needed was bring their B game and they would have walked all over Pakistan.

Unfortunately for India, they had a complete meltdown and most of the players had the worst game of their lives.

Can I ask you a question ?
Why was pakistan performance so discredited by you . Yes india played slightly subpar but I felt pak raised their game a notch higher . They were the winners that day and the indian odi team is the second biggest choker team these days mainly due to kohli lack of captaincy innovative ness ( he is now improving though snd I believe the ind - eng series was a game changing moment in Indian cricket - it’s the start of a glorious 5 years where india will win every trophy out there )
 
Current Indian team is not even better than the Pak team of the late 90s

And Imran is the best captain of all time (not just Asian). Get your facts right.

Do you have stats to back either of these points?
 
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