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Indian community divided as UK caste row reaches boiling point

Cpt. Rishwat

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Indian community divided as UK caste row reaches boiling point

The Theresa May government is facing a delicate balancing act on the sensitive issue of outlawing caste-based discrimination when a public consultation ends on Monday, as rival lobbying from the 1.5 million-strong Indian community reaches a boil with high-profile interventions.

The issue has implications for New Delhi, which has opposed clubbing caste with race in international fora in the past. The May government is also loathe to rile the Narendra Modi government at a time when post-Brexit Britain is focussing on enhancing trade with India.

The Indian community is deeply divided on the issue, with influential Hindu, Sikh and Jain lobbies denying that caste-based discrimination exists in Britain, stating that enacting such a law would entrench ideas of caste where none exist. But some individuals, Dalit and other groups insist this discrimination exists, making the law a necessity.

Caste-based discrimination is not expressly prohibited under Britain’s equality legislation, but Section 9 of the Equality Act, 2010, as amended, requires the government to introduce secondary legislation to make caste an aspect of race, thereby making caste-based discrimination a form of race discrimination.

The latest high-profile intervention on the issue is from the celebrated Mumbai-born sculptor Anish Kapoor, who told The Sunday Times that the government must enact the law to prevent caste-based discrimination.

Kapoor, 63, called it an “interesting anomaly” and told the paper: “It is outlawed in India, so why not in Britain? It is discrimination at the most vile level. The government introduced laws against slavery, so why can they not act on this?

“My parents are cosmopolitan and modern and paid no heed to this. But the truth is that there are parts of India where a lower-caste person is not allowed to enter a street or is not allowed to go into a shop. If they go into a shop, things are put on the floor for them.

“We love to think of Britain as progressive. It would be disgraceful if the government bows to pressure and does not act on this key area of human rights,” he said.

The Conservative government is seen to be close to the Hindu-Sikh-Jain groups that oppose the law. Conservative MP from Harrow East, Bob Blackman — considered close to Hindu groups — calls the legislation “ill thought-out, divisive and unnecessary”.

Labour and Liberal Democrats are on the pro-law side.

Before the June 8 elections, May had told Hindustan Times: “I recognise the sensitivity on the caste issue; there is a consultation taking place. There was wording put into the relevant legislation in the House of Lords by Labour and Liberal Democrats working together on that, but I realise how sensitive this issue is.”

The public consultation that has attracted responses from various lobby groups and individuals seeks views on whether legal protection against caste-based discrimination is best ensured by developing case-law under the Equality Act or by making caste explicitly an aspect of race in the Act.

The delicate balancing act before the government is clear from its statement in the consultation paper: “The government is committed to deciding the better approach between case-law and legislation in a way that is proportionate, and which protects people from discrimination and avoids unhelpful and socially divisive consequences such as promoting, creating or entrenching ideas of caste or heightening caste consciousness where they do not previously exist.”

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...iling-point/story-nkcPlwuOJSSwS95IcESGYL.html


I don't understand why there is opposition to this legislature going through. By fighting against it, surely the British Indian community is just putting in people's mind that there is probably good reason that the legislature is needed?

I read the full story in the Sunday Times yesterday and it's clear that caste discrimination does travel with the Indian immigrants overseas and keeping it underground isn't allowing the community to move forward.
 
This whole idea of "deliberation" on whether caste based discrimination should be outlawed on not is hilarious to me. But this is politics, so I don't know why I expected anything better.

Also,

he Indian community is deeply divided on the issue, with influential Hindu, Sikh and Jain lobbies denying that caste-based discrimination exists in Britain, stating that enacting such a law would entrench ideas of caste where none exist.

LOL.

So, basically what they're saying is that by adding the term "caste" would suddenly create caste based discrimination and instil some sort of caste pride? That's a bit far fetched. Also hilarious is these guys saying that there is absolutely no caste based discrimination.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...184000-in-uks-first-caste-discrimination-case
 
The late Mahatma Gandhi once said that if he were to be reborn, he wanted to come back as one of the untouchables — the long-despised outsiders of the Hindu caste system — “so that I may share their sorrows, sufferings and the affronts levelled at them”. Gandhi might have been astonished to learn that almost 70 years after his death the same “affronts” are stirring revolt — not just in the villages of India but also on the streets of Birmingham, Leicester, Bedford and other British cities with large immigrant Asian populations.

Members of Britain’s Dalit community — as the former untouchables are now widely known — have long claimed that the discrimination against them is entrenched among some members of the country’s 800,000-strong Hindu population.

There have been allegations of British-based Dalits being taunted in schools, abused in shops and humiliated at work by colleagues who refuse to drink out of the same tap or share kitchen utensils with a group previously regarded by higher castes as “polluting” or “dirty”.

The campaign to outlaw caste discrimination in Britain won the support last week of Sir Anish Kapoor, the Mumbai-born British sculptor, who has become one of the most prominent figures in the Indian community to intervene in an increasingly bitter debate over the practice of Hinduism in Britain.

“It is outlawed in India, so why not in Britain?” Kapoor told The Sunday Times. “It is discrimination at the most vile level. The government introduced laws against slavery, so why can they not act on this?”

Yet proposals for a government ban have exposed disagreements over whether the caste system exists in Britain at all and whether any attempt to regulate alleged discrimination would amount to what some Hindu leaders have characterised as an attack on their religion.

A six-month-long public consultation on a proposed ban on caste-based discrimination ends tomorrow, but it has already been overshadowed by accusations that Theresa May is worried about harming post-Brexit trade with India, where right-wing Hindu nationalism has become a potent force under Narendra Modi, the prime minister.

There are also claims that future UK party political donations by wealthy Hindu businessmen may depend on how May and the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn address the caste issue. Corbyn has been accused by the UK National Council of Hindu Temples of being “determined to foist caste labels upon British Hindus”.

Yet members of the British Dalit community, estimated at more than 50,000 people, complain of an alarming array of discriminatory practices that they claim have accompanied Indian migration to Britain.

“Caste discrimination has affected my entire life,” said Reena Kumari, 37, from Coventry. Born in Britain to Dalit parents, she recalled that at secondary school she had been asked by other children about her Dalit surname and her parents’ home village in India. “The children would say [about me]: don’t touch her, you will catch something.”

When she worked as an adult in a local shop “there was a customer from the [highest-ranking] Brahmin caste and she would not take money from my hand”, she said. “She was a very nice lady, but her views were ingrained. People don’t want to speak out because it’s taboo. People are embarrassed by it.”

Sudesh Rani, 43, a welfare officer from Bedford, said she went to the police after she was abused by two women in a Tesco supermarket about being a member of the Ravidassia community, members of which are viewed as lower caste.

“They were shouting, ‘You are dirty and low caste.’ I felt sick. They were saying, ‘We’re going to rip you apart.’ I told the police but they said there is no such thing as caste. They didn’t know what to do.”

The problem is not confined to the Hindu community and Ram Lakha, 68, a Sikh from a Dalit family, claimed to have encountered discrimination frequently in a local political career that in 2005 made him lord mayor of Coventry.

“There is a glass ceiling,” said Lakha, who has been a councillor for 28 years.

“There is a silent struggle going on and we have learnt to live with it. There is not one Dalit who has become an MP or a peer in this country.”

In 2015 Permila Tirkey, a woman from the Adivasi tribal group in India — traditionally considered the “servant” caste — won £184,000 in compensation at an employment tribunal after a claim based in part on caste discrimination.

The woman had been kept in domestic servitude for 4½ years by her employers Ajay and Pooja Chandhok, both originally Hindus, in Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire. She had worked 18 hours a day, seven days a week, and had been paid 11p an hour.

The origins of the Asian caste system remain hotly debated by historians, but its four primary castes are linked to Brahma, the four-faced Hindu deity. The purest Brahmin caste traditionally includes spiritual leaders and teachers. Gandhi, who referred to the untouchables as harijan (children of God), belonged to the second-ranked Kshatriya caste of administrators and warriors.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six...riminated-against-by-british-hindus-c92nsxx0l

Very concerning that legislation to prevent discrimination is clearly being blocked because of worries about trade with India. While I agree that trade is important, should it mean that we ride roughshod over the rights of British subjects just because we want to make money from India?
 
What's the fuss about? If there is no discrimination the law should not affect you. If there is discrimination then we need legislation. Bring the law in.
 
I don't understand why there is opposition to this legislature going through. By fighting against it, surely the British Indian community is just putting in people's mind that there is probably good reason that the legislature is needed?

I read the full story in the Sunday Times yesterday and it's clear that caste discrimination does travel with the Indian immigrants overseas and keeping it underground isn't allowing the community to move forward.

What's the fuss about? If there is no discrimination the law should not affect you. If there is discrimination then we need legislation. Bring the law in.
Puzzled as to why there is even opposition to it.
Perhaps because those who are opposing it are from the higher castes, and thus likely to be the ones doing the discriminating? Whereas those likely to be the victims of discrimination, ie those from the lower castes, are mostly the ones not opposing.
 
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^^^ Meant to say:

"Perhaps because those who are opposing it are from the higher castes, and thus likely to be the ones doing the discriminating? Whereas those likely to be the victims of discrimination, ie those from the lower castes, are mostly the ones demanding the changes to legislation. "
 
Caste does not mean race in India. At least not anymore. Upper Caste do tend to be lighter skinned with sharp beak. But it does not mean anything. There are plenty of low caste people with the exact same features.

Indian people are thoroughly mixed now. You cannot tell who is who unless you are a Dalit or a Tribal. Even among them, sometimes it is not easy to tell.

Dalit and Tribals do not have a caste. They do not fall under the Varna System of Caste or Jati (Zaat). There is definitely some mistreatment of Dalits. Mostly in rural areas. In cities most do not care who is who until it reaches marriage point. That is when the trouble starts.

Here in USA, we do not even know or ask the caste of the Indian you see. Thankfully that stuff is left in India.
 
What aspects of discrimination will the law cover?

Just reading the views of some of those lower castes complaining in the Times article, verbal abuse would be one of them as claimed by Reena Kumari who despite being born and brought up in the UK seems to think that among Indian communities caste discrimination is still rife.

reena-jaisiah-40310501.jpg
 
Just reading the views of some of those lower castes complaining in the Times article, verbal abuse would be one of them as claimed by Reena Kumari who despite being born and brought up in the UK seems to think that among Indian communities caste discrimination is still rife.

View attachment 76306

Is Reena Kumari a Dalit? If so, I would not be able to guess that she is a Dalit.
 
Is Reena Kumari a Dalit? If so, I would not be able to guess that she is a Dalit.

Yes she is. Taken from the Times article above:

“Caste discrimination has affected my entire life,” said Reena Kumari, 37, from Coventry. Born in Britain to Dalit parents, she recalled that at secondary school she had been asked by other children about her Dalit surname and her parents’ home village in India. “The children would say [about me]: don’t touch her, you will catch something.”
 
Yes she is. Taken from the Times article above:

“Caste discrimination has affected my entire life,” said Reena Kumari, 37, from Coventry. Born in Britain to Dalit parents, she recalled that at secondary school she had been asked by other children about her Dalit surname and her parents’ home village in India. “The children would say [about me]: don’t touch her, you will catch something.”

That is a total disgrace.

I am surprised the second generation kids in UK know what a Dalit surname is. I know tons of 2nd generation Indian kids in USA and they do not even know what their caste is or what their surname means. So forget about any interest in the others caste or surname.

Looks like UK Indian parents have been teaching their kids caste lessons at home. Even then it is hard for me to believe that a student got bullied for having a Dalit surname.
 
Just reading the views of some of those lower castes complaining in the Times article, verbal abuse would be one of them as claimed by Reena Kumari who despite being born and brought up in the UK seems to think that among Indian communities caste discrimination is still rife.

Verbal abuse, fair enough. Should get the same punishment meant for using the N word. Also untouchability, if it is still practiced. Wonder what is taking UK so long? Although covert forms of discrimination are hard to legislate for.

btw this article has mistakes. gandhi was a casteist and harmed the dalit cause the most. and he was a baniya. although the mistakes don't take away from the main story.
 
That is a total disgrace.

I am surprised the second generation kids in UK know what a Dalit surname is. I know tons of 2nd generation Indian kids in USA and they do not even know what their caste is or what their surname means. So forget about any interest in the others caste or surname.

Looks like UK Indian parents have been teaching their kids caste lessons at home. Even then it is hard for me to believe that a student got bullied for having a Dalit surname.

bhai meray you have no idea. This stuff is rife. I have lived with the Indian community for 40 odd years and it is pretty rife here. And its rife amongst Muslims Hindus and Sikhs. I dont know what its like in India but I had a friend who's parents were from Rajkot. He got married but his marriage ended in a divorce. It took him ages to find another wife becasue he couldnt marry a girl outside of his caste and baradri. You see its not just caste, it gets worse. Poor guy had to put an ad in a Rajkot daily to help him find a wife.
 
bhai meray you have no idea. This stuff is rife. I have lived with the Indian community for 40 odd years and it is pretty rife here. And its rife amongst Muslims Hindus and Sikhs. I dont know what its like in India but I had a friend who's parents were from Rajkot. He got married but his marriage ended in a divorce. It took him ages to find another wife becasue he couldnt marry a girl outside of his caste and baradri. You see its not just caste, it gets worse. Poor guy had to put an ad in a Rajkot daily to help him find a wife.

Marrying with in caste is normal in India. Though it is changing in cities.

Bullying for being a Dalit by 2nd generation NRI's is hard to believe. Most have no clue about their own religion. So forget caste and the surname affiliations.
 
Yes she is. Taken from the Times article above:

“Caste discrimination has affected my entire life,” said Reena Kumari, 37, from Coventry. Born in Britain to Dalit parents, she recalled that at secondary school she had been asked by other children about her Dalit surname and her parents’ home village in India. “The children would say [about me]: don’t touch her, you will catch something.”

Bullcrap. Children at secondary don't discriminate on the basis of caste even in India. Parent may or may not. She's lying or making up a story for over emphasising. But she may have possibly experienced discrimination from adults though. LoL children don't maintain dalit surname list in their heads.
 
Marrying with in caste is normal in India. Though it is changing in cities.

Bullying for being a Dalit by 2nd generation NRI's is hard to believe. Most have no clue about their own religion. So forget caste and the surname affiliations.

Marrying within caste is as good or as bad as marrying within religion/ethnicity.
 
Bullcrap. Children at secondary don't discriminate on the basis of caste even in India. Parent may or may not. She's lying or making up a story for over emphasising. But she may have possibly experienced discrimination from adults though. LoL children don't maintain dalit surname list in their heads.

Do you live in the UK? I used to play football with a couple of Sikh mates at school, afterwards I bumped into one of them and we started reminiscing about the other one, and he told me he wasn't really a Sikh, his family were from a community of Chooras in India and they'd changed their names in England. The guy was dark skinned so maybe that's why the family got labelled, but true or not, it's easy to see how rumours in a community could spread down to the kids with some malicious gossip.
 
Anti-discrimination law should be allowed,caste is probably prevalent there from what I remember there are Gurudwaras based on caste,but then discrimination based on location,assuming its verbally,even verbal discrimination based on football teams should be taken seriously and laws brought for the same for someone cursing the other.
 
Bullcrap. Children at secondary don't discriminate on the basis of caste even in India. Parent may or may not. She's lying or making up a story for over emphasising. But she may have possibly experienced discrimination from adults though. LoL children don't maintain dalit surname list in their heads.
From time to time, children will see their parents talking negatively about someone or other. If that person happens to be from a lower caste, you can bet your bottom dollar that references to their caste will come into play. And children will therefore pick up these negative connotations about other (especially lower) castes.

Young children can be horrible to each other when away from the company of adults, say in the school playground. Because they haven't yet learnt to hide their feelings and put up a front of political correctness. So if anyone is talking "Bullcrap", it is most likely to be you my friends.
 
Anti-discrimination law should be allowed,caste is probably prevalent there from what I remember there are Gurudwaras based on caste,but then discrimination based on location,assuming its verbally,even verbal discrimination based on football teams should be taken seriously and laws brought for the same for someone cursing the other.

If I didn't know you, I could have mistaken you for an apologist, for conflating racist and casteist abuse with profanity used during football. Those words have a history attached to them and are a symbol of exploitation. Their usage is intended to intentionally take away the humanity of the recipient by reminding him/her of their sub human status in the past. It is a crime against humanity.
 
If I didn't know you, I could have mistaken you for an apologist, for conflating racist and casteist abuse with profanity used during football. Those words have a history attached to them and are a symbol of exploitation. Their usage is intended to intentionally take away the humanity of the recipient by reminding him/her of their sub human status in the past. It is a crime against humanity.

I think in subtle way I was playing it down,my bad guess am losing my anti-casteism mindset.
 
Bullcrap. Children at secondary don't discriminate on the basis of caste even in India. Parent may or may not. She's lying or making up a story for over emphasising. But she may have possibly experienced discrimination from adults though. LoL children don't maintain dalit surname list in their heads.

Why are Indian posters so defensive over evertyhing?

As for the OP, they dont want such laws as the middle class, rich see caste as an important part of their heritage. British Indians may have good education but can be as backward as anyone else as this proves.
 
Just so we're clear, this is 2017 isn't It? Why is casteism not already illegal?
 
Just so we're clear, this is 2017 isn't It? Why is casteism not already illegal?
As the OP hints, well off Hindus and Sikhs are quite influential in the higher political circles, with many contributing big sums to the Conservatives. And since being of a higher caste gives social status within the Indian community, and considering that it's the lower castes (the victims) demanding legislation, the higher castes (the ones doing the discriminating) also agreeing to any legislation banning caste discrimination will be like turkeys voting for Xmas.
 
Caste does not mean race in India. At least not anymore. Upper Caste do tend to be lighter skinned with sharp beak. But it does not mean anything. There are plenty of low caste people with the exact same features.

Indian people are thoroughly mixed now. You cannot tell who is who unless you are a Dalit or a Tribal. Even among them, sometimes it is not easy to tell.

Dalit and Tribals do not have a caste. They do not fall under the Varna System of Caste or Jati (Zaat). There is definitely some mistreatment of Dalits. Mostly in rural areas. In cities most do not care who is who until it reaches marriage point. That is when the trouble starts.

Here in USA, we do not even know or ask the caste of the Indian you see. Thankfully that stuff is left in India.

Why even bring in the point on looks when you state that you can find someone with the same features. India is too diverse to categorise on looks
 
^^^ Meant to say:

"Perhaps because those who are opposing it are from the higher castes, and thus likely to be the ones doing the discriminating? Whereas those likely to be the victims of discrimination, ie those from the lower castes, are mostly the ones demanding the changes to legislation. "
That's a fairly simplistic view. You will see people differentiating based on caste even when they are both considered lower castes in the traditional sense. I believe the opposition is more to do with lumping of religions. I could be wrong as I have not read up on what these groups are opposing it for.

In India discrimination based on caste is practiced by all religions. That is one area where Hindus Muslims Sikhs and Christian's all unite.

The oppo
 
Bullcrap. Children at secondary don't discriminate on the basis of caste even in India. Parent may or may not. She's lying or making up a story for over emphasising. But she may have possibly experienced discrimination from adults though. LoL children don't maintain dalit surname list in their heads.

You have not seen it then. It does exist and is passed on from the parents, not to play/sit with another kid
 
Some of these evils are deeply rooted into culture passed down for 1000 years.. Unfortunately there is no way to get rid of them. You can pass the law but still can't change the perceptions of the people.
 
That's a fairly simplistic view. You will see people differentiating based on caste even when they are both considered lower castes in the traditional sense. I believe the opposition is more to do with lumping of religions. I could be wrong as I have not read up on what these groups are opposing it for.

In India discrimination based on caste is practiced by all religions. That is one area where Hindus Muslims Sikhs and Christian's all unite.

The oppo
The OP doesn't mention Muslims. Probably because the concept of caste is not enshrined in the religion itself.

From the OP.
The Indian community is deeply divided on the issue, with influential Hindu, Sikh and Jain lobbies denying that caste-based discrimination exists in Britain,
 
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You have not seen it then. It does exist and is passed on from the parents, not to play/sit with another kid

Not among NRI kids though.

In India it is still practiced and rather strictly in rural areas.
 
The OP doesn't mention Muslims. Probably because the concept of caste is not enshrined in the religion itself.

From the OP.
It's not enshrined in the other religions as well. As you have read from other posters in the thread it does exist across. Good to see British Indian Muslims staying away from this mess
 
From the same article.

Although untouchability among Hindus is widely documented and debated, its existence among India's Muslims is rarely discussed.

One reason possibly is that Islam does not recognise caste, and promotes equality and egalitarianism.

Most of India's 140 million Muslims are descended from local converts. Many of them converted to Islam to escape Hindu upper-caste oppression.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-36220329

Thus backing up the point I made.

The OP doesn't mention Muslims. Probably because the concept of caste is not enshrined in the religion itself..

If some Indian Muslims are practicing a form of caste, then it's cultural and nothing to do with Islam itself. Not so in the case of Hindus.

From the Times article quoted by [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] in post #3 above.

The origins of the Asian caste system remain hotly debated by historians, but its four primary castes are linked to Brahma, the four-faced Hindu deity. The purest Brahmin caste traditionally includes spiritual leaders and teachers.
 
A lot of these upper castes who migrate to the west see themselves as escaping the "oppressive" post independence government which sought to curtail their rights (read : privileges) by providing upliftment programmes for the lower castes and Dalits (affirmative action, subsidized education, land re-distribution ) etc . On migrating , the take with themselves the memory of the India of "their" glory days. SO its perfectly plausible that they transfer their prejudices over to their progeny.

I for one am very well aware of the existence of caste based organisations amongst the malayalam speaking communities in the US and Europe (both for Upper castes and OBCs) . These organisations are started with the aim of building a closer coordinated community for the Indians living there (just like the churches) , but since they are based around caste, caste identity-pride and prejudices are propagated just as they are done back home.

But Indians are pretty good at projecting the "spices,music and mystics" image of the country overseas. So anything that sheds light on the casteist history of India will be suppressed by the very same people.

Remember, last year there was this ongoing issue of desi upper castes forcing american schools to remove any evidence of the caste system from the textbooks on Indian history ?
 
Here in USA, we do not even know or ask the caste of the Indian you see. Thankfully that stuff is left in India.
You need to read this post from a fellow Indian American who appears to disagree with you.

Having worked/lived in the States for a few years, and coming into contact with many Indian Americans, I can echo his views based upon what I saw (as an impartial observer of course, being a 'Brit' of Pakistani/Muslim origin).

A lot of these upper castes who migrate to the west see themselves as escaping the "oppressive" post independence government which sought to curtail their rights (read : privileges) by providing upliftment programmes for the lower castes and Dalits (affirmative action, subsidized education, land re-distribution ) etc . On migrating , the take with themselves the memory of the India of "their" glory days. SO its perfectly plausible that they transfer their prejudices over to their progeny.

I for one am very well aware of the existence of caste based organisations amongst the malayalam speaking communities in the US and Europe (both for Upper castes and OBCs) . These organisations are started with the aim of building a closer coordinated community for the Indians living there (just like the churches) , but since they are based around caste, caste identity-pride and prejudices are propagated just as they are done back home.

But Indians are pretty good at projecting the "spices,music and mystics" image of the country overseas. So anything that sheds light on the casteist history of India will be suppressed by the very same people.

Remember, last year there was this ongoing issue of desi upper castes forcing american schools to remove any evidence of the caste system from the textbooks on Indian history ?

Going by some of the posts, there appears to be an element of the following going on in this and various other similar threads.

But Indians are pretty good at projecting the "spices,music and mystics" image of the country overseas. So anything that sheds light on the casteist history of India will be suppressed by the very same people.
 
A lot of these upper castes who migrate to the west see themselves as escaping the "oppressive" post independence government which sought to curtail their rights (read : privileges) by providing upliftment programmes for the lower castes and Dalits (affirmative action, subsidized education, land re-distribution ) etc . On migrating , the take with themselves the memory of the India of "their" glory days. SO its perfectly plausible that they transfer their prejudices over to their progeny.

I for one am very well aware of the existence of caste based organisations amongst the malayalam speaking communities in the US and Europe (both for Upper castes and OBCs) . These organisations are started with the aim of building a closer coordinated community for the Indians living there (just like the churches) , but since they are based around caste, caste identity-pride and prejudices are propagated just as they are done back home.

But Indians are pretty good at projecting the "spices,music and mystics" image of the country overseas. So anything that sheds light on the casteist history of India will be suppressed by the very same people.

Remember, last year there was this ongoing issue of desi upper castes forcing american schools to remove any evidence of the caste system from the textbooks on Indian history ?

Never heard of any caste based organization in US. Even among some of the notorious castes of Andhra Pradesh. They are rivals back in South India. But in US, they are all lovie-dovie. Not sure if they intermarry, but they do not seem to discriminate each other's kids.

I found Malayalees the most united after Gujjus. Gujaratis do not seem to care about caste as long as the person is a Gujju. Same with Malayalees. Very close knit people. They help each other in many ways.

I am talking about US. Not sure how it is in UK.

Upper Caste did not runaway or migrate to West to escape the Dalit reforms or land redistribution. They ran away as they found that they can make loads of money there with the education they have.

For example, the Kamma and Reddy Caste are 2 of the most dominant and rich castes of Andhra and Telengana. They are the first people who started to migrate to West from South India as Doctors, Engineers etc. They started the trend. Their life style in West inspired other upper castes to imitate their path.

Dalits could not immigrate initially as they were too poor and illiterate to emigrate. Now they have also started. I know 3 of them just in my circle. 2 are Telugu and one is a Tamil. We do not discriminate nor even care what they are. We attend the same events, parties etc. I am sure most do not even know they are Dalits. I know about them as I am more close to them and I do keep some interest in the demographics and castes of India.
 
From the same article.



Thus backing up the point I made.



If some Indian Muslims are practicing a form of caste, then it's cultural and nothing to do with Islam itself. Not so in the case of Hindus.

From the Times article quoted by [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] in post #3 above.
Those are varnas. For someone not familiar with the religion the confusion can be understood. If you are looking for a snippet here's one:
http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/what-does-gita-say-about-caste-system-in-the-hindu-society

You can find more detailed texts if you look around. Anyway this abhorrent practice has become a part of Hindu society and by extension to all other religions in the subcontinent.
 
Those are varnas. For someone not familiar with the religion the confusion can be understood. If you are looking for a snippet here's one:
http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/what-does-gita-say-about-caste-system-in-the-hindu-society

You can find more detailed texts if you look around. Anyway this abhorrent practice has become a part of Hindu society and by extension to all other religions in the subcontinent.
Considering that both Christianity and Islam are against the concept of caste and completely reject the notion, why are non-Muslims/non-Christians so keen to claim that Islam and/or Christianity also practice caste? Can't you understand that there is a difference between (some) Indian Muslims culturally practicing forms of a caste system inherited from their Hindu roots, as opposed to the religion of Islam which completely rejects the notion of caste?
 
Which part of my post confused you? What part of all religions in India practicing caste discrimination despite it not being a part of their books did you not follow?
 
Which part of my post confused you? What part of all religions in India practicing caste discrimination despite it not being a part of their books did you not follow?
How can a religion "practice caste discrimination" when "caste is not part of it's books, and is completely rejected"?

If (some) Indian Muslims, due to their inherited Hindu roots, are practicing casteism, then they are going against the tenets of Islam, and not following Islam.

Put simply, it appears you can't see the difference between the religion of Islam (which is followed all over the world by over 2 billions Muslims), and (some) Indian Muslims practicing aspects of a culture inherited from their Hindu roots, aspects which directly contravene the rules laid out by Islam.

Then again, perhaps you really can't see the difference.
 
Rather funny that Britain of all countries wants to ban "caste-based" discrimination. What next, laws banning class-based snobbery in Britain?
 
Why go to UK when you wanna practise the same pathetic third world practises like casteism?? I guess you can't take the sub continental roots amongst Indians even if they go abroad.. The whole caste system and discrimination is pretty pathetic similar to racial discrimination but mentality of people is sick..
 
Very concerning that legislation to prevent discrimination is clearly being blocked because of worries about trade with India. While I agree that trade is important, should it mean that we ride roughshod over the rights of British subjects just because we want to make money from India?

In 2015 Permila Tirkey, a woman from the Adivasi tribal group in India — traditionally considered the “servant” caste — won £184,000 in compensation at an employment tribunal after a claim based in part on caste discrimination.
The woman had been kept in domestic servitude for 4½ years by her employers Ajay and Pooja Chandhok, both originally Hindus, in Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire. She had worked 18 hours a day, seven days a week, and had been paid 11p an hour.

Seems like a straight-up violation of labor laws. How did this become "caste discrimination"?

“Caste discrimination has affected my entire life,” said Reena Kumari, 37, from Coventry. Born in Britain to Dalit parents, she recalled that at secondary school she had been asked by other children about her Dalit surname

"Kumari" is not a Dalit surname.
 
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How can a religion "practice caste discrimination" when "caste is not part of it's books, and is completely rejected"?

If (some) Indian Muslims, due to their inherited Hindu roots, are practicing casteism, then they are going against the tenets of Islam, and not following Islam.

Put simply, it appears you can't see the difference between the religion of Islam (which is followed all over the world by over 2 billions Muslims), and (some) Indian Muslims practicing aspects of a culture inherited from their Hindu roots, aspects which directly contravene the rules laid out by Islam.

Then again, perhaps you really can't see the difference.
There are lots of practices which get attributed to the religion but have no basis in the book. You being a Muslim probably read a lot of stuff about Islam which is simply not true. Or do such concessions apply only to Islam?
 
There are lots of practices which get attributed to the religion but have no basis in the book. You being a Muslim probably read a lot of stuff about Islam which is simply not true. Or do such concessions apply only to Islam?
Don't know what point you are trying to make. You keep confusing the faith itself (any faith), and it's teachings, with those who claim to follow that faith despite going against some of it's tenets.

I realise it's a technique to divert attention from the fact that Hinduism as a religion incorporates within it elements of a caste system, by (falsely) claiming that all other religions (ie including Islam and Christianity) also incorporate elements of a caste system within their teachings just because some Indian Muslims/Christians have kept their cultural practices (some of which include casteism) inherited from the Hindu roots of their ancestors.
 
There are caste based issues and if NRIs had given up on this they would had all married out of caste, don't think that happened,one reason could be they married in India and then migrated.

Only thing I don't understand is why was Jain religion clubbed along with others?? I haven't heard of them discriminating based on caste.

Another question I have is for [MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION] is glorifying caste also wrong?
 
[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION] Hinduism has caste Incorporated into it and let's say Hindu community in England know about they are believe in that,what are you guys as citizens of England suggesting that should happen?Do you want caste based discrimination laws? And if yes why can't those be included under general or religious discrimination laws?
 
There are caste based issues and if NRIs had given up on this they would had all married out of caste, don't think that happened,one reason could be they married in India and then migrated.

Only thing I don't understand is why was Jain religion clubbed along with others?? I haven't heard of them discriminating based on caste.

Another question I have is for [MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION] is glorifying caste also wrong?

Not at all. I want more people to say they are proud to be chamars and bhangis.
 
They should take ownership of things they should be proud of, and ashamed of things they shouldn't have done.

Didn't know you believed in idealism,if you read THE paper shared by TSA ,Jatts have been most discriminating.
 
Didn't know you believed in idealism,if you read THE paper shared by TSA ,Jatts have been most discriminating.

I don't find it offensive if someone is proud of their caste. Problem is when they insult other castes and ignore the dark deeds perpetuated by their caste.
 
I don't find it offensive if someone is proud of their caste. Problem is when they insult other castes and ignore the dark deeds perpetuated by their caste.

Glorifying the caste generally will end up discriminating against others because of bias towards your own caste.
 
My daddy best means you are discriminating against other dads?

I'll give the job to my dad even though he is not capable enough as other dad who applied,yeah like that never happens?

In this logic we should allow dynasties in politics and u shud have no issues with Bollywood too then with Punjab domination.
 
Some of these evils are deeply rooted into culture passed down for 1000 years.. Unfortunately there is no way to get rid of them. You can pass the law but still can't change the perceptions of the people.

This might be true of the subcontinent, but in Britain you definitely can change the perceptions. British Pakistanis definitely tend to lose the caste prejudices either because they take on the British culture where caste is not recognised, or because they adopt an Islamic perspective where caste is also not a feature.

Even British Indians who adopt British culture will usually lose their caste bias over time. That is why the movement has arisen to prevent it being brought over and perpetuated by those coming from India itself.
 
[MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION]

Never heard of any caste based organization in US. Even among some of the notorious castes of Andhra Pradesh. They are rivals back in South India. But in US, they are all lovie-dovie. Not sure if they intermarry, but they do not seem to discriminate each other's kids.
I spoke specifically about my state. The Nair Service Society ( Upper caste org) has active branches there in the United states. SO does the SNDP ( Ezhava caste - Kerala's main OBC group). They hold meetings and yearly celebrations to mark the founding of these organizations and/or their founders birthdays. There are various religion based organizations in the west for the numerous Christian denominations of Kerala as well (which have their root in the caste system - Syrian, Roman catholics - Upper caste, evangelicals/protestants - Dalit converts ) .

I found Malayalees the most united after Gujjus. Gujaratis do not seem to care about caste as long as the person is a Gujju. Same with Malayalees. Very close knit people. They help each other in many ways.

What malayalees do better than any other Indian community is to hide their religious and caste preferences outside the country(unless ofcourse they are ultraconservative Muslims or Xtians like the Evangelists). Suppressing aspects of our Indian Identity (like Language, customs etc) is the key to assimilating in a foreign nation and that is drilled into most malayalis from a young age. Malayalees make up only a very small percent of the racial attack/hate crime victims (among Indians) in western countries , precisely for this reason. (Those victims usually tend to be from Andhra , Punjabi and other Hindi speaking communities) . The gulf is an exception because there are way too many malayalees there (atleast 1 million) and most are involved in lower level jobs, so getting attacked by angry/entitled arabs is far more likely .

They only bring out their Identity once they are in a "safe"-space , like during a malayalee gathering , celebrity event/concert, celebrating onam etc. That is why you see malaylis getting together and celebrating Onam etc irrespective of religion or caste. But they do propagate their caste biases just like they do in Kerala - Behind the back and within the confines of homes.

And malayalees help others caste/religion mallus because most migrants are smart enough to realize that survival and earning money matters more than caste pride, but that is also the same situation in Kerala too. Nobody openly expresses caste feelings here, unless its against the dalits.

Upper Caste did not runaway or migrate to West to escape the Dalit reforms or land redistribution. They ran away as they found that they can make loads of money there with the education they have.

There is one key difference in the caste system of AP and KL - The OBCs of Andhra (Kapus, I Think) were landed communities i.e, peasants who could own land & property, but in Kerala the OBCs (Ezhavas, Thiyyas) were untouchables & most of whom were not allowed to own land .. !

That is a KEY difference in how caste reforms played out in the two states , and also why kerala saw far more conversions to Christianity (in Kerala the OBCs faced much more severe discrimination and converting was the easiest way out). You already have the dominant OBC community (30 something % of your population I guess) doing much better in AP and didn't face the same level of inequality w.r.t to the upper castes. While the upper castes of Kerala controlled vast majority of the land pre-independence, and that was redistributed by the communist govt of the 50's and 60's to the OBCs and Dalits. So the anger at lower castes for taking what is seen as their "property" is much stronger . But the OBC being 50% of the hindu population (just like most other Indian states) and mstly communists made it impossible for them to fight it . This coupled with the reservation policy has led to long seething anger amongst the upper castes, which is now boiling out as the astronomical rise of the Kerala BJP/RSS (90% upper caste dominated).

For example, the Kamma and Reddy Caste are 2 of the most dominant and rich castes of Andhra and Telengana. They are the first people who started to migrate to West from South India as Doctors, Engineers etc. They started the trend. Their life style in West inspired other upper castes to imitate their path.

Again there are differences. The earliest migrants from Kerala to the west (much earlier than other south Indians) were the christians and Muslims who were more or less lower caste converts - Nurses, shopkeepers etc. They were (unlike Telugus) mostly middle or lower income groups who migrated for survival and not additional opportunities. The upper castes of Kerala were too proud( and financially better off w.r.t property and land) to go overseas and/or send women for work, untill the gulf boom/nursing boom really hit (post 80's) and the sudden financial rise of the OBCs and christian/muslim communities, forced the (poorer )Upper castes to change their strategies.

Dalits could not immigrate initially as they were too poor and illiterate to emigrate. Now they have also started. I know 3 of them just in my circle. 2 are Telugu and one is a Tamil. We do not discriminate nor even care what they are. We attend the same events, parties etc. I am sure most do not even know they are Dalits. I know about them as I am more close to them and I do keep some interest in the demographics and castes of India.

Dalits of kerala had much more opportunity to migrate , especially if they converted to protestant Christianity or Islam, so MANY took that opportunity. Schooling and higher ed were made much more accessible to kerala dalits (kudos to the govts) and conversions would ensure you got to study in better equpped minority run institutes.

And I hope you are talking about the Telugu community overseas, because from what ever I've seen from my telugu colleagues (I work in Bangalore in a telugu dominated {like 40%} IT firm) , the acceptance of caste pride and projection of upper caste Identity that I've seen are quite shocking . Isn't even fan base of the telugu movie 'families' centered around caste ?
 
I'll give the job to my dad even though he is not capable enough as other dad who applied,yeah like that never happens?

In this logic we should allow dynasties in politics and u shud have no issues with Bollywood too then with Punjab domination.

I thought we were discussing how one can be proud of their caste. You are now bringing in caste based discrimination and mixing the issue. Do you think a muslim should not be proud to be a muslim because it is possible that it can lead to religious discrimination?
 
Caste is the best order for a society. It provides division of labour and gives respect to people in proportion to the value they bring to the society.

But when it turned hereditary, it got corrupted. Caste should be fluid, and what you are should not be dictated by what your parents were. There should be possibility to update or downgrade caste based on the value the person adds to the community. Because even though humans have equal rights, they are not equals and don't deserve equal respect in the society.
 
I thought we were discussing how one can be proud of their caste. You are now bringing in caste based discrimination and mixing the issue. Do you think a muslim should not be proud to be a muslim because it is possible that it can lead to religious discrimination?

Yes that's what I'm saying.
 
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