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India's poor tailenders

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mkyawar

Tape Ball Regular
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
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531
I have never seen a poor india tail. It was embarrassing to see Umesh come at number 8 compared to David Wiley . Secondly it was embarrassing to see Chahal hit a 4 and show his bat
 
When was it strong? India has always relied on its top/middle order.

This is India's weakest middle order in the last decade or so.

We had Yuvraj, peak Raina and Dhoni in late 2000s.

In 2011 World Cup, we had slotted Kohli in the lower middle order and Yusuf Pathan to follow up.

Tail was always weak and unreliable. The best we had were Jadeja, Bhajji, Kumble etc.
 
The last 4 Indian batsmen cannot score more than 10 runs between them.

Yadav/Bumrah/BK/Chahal/Kuldeep are all dud batsmen in LOI's.

Kumar and Kuldeep are pretty decent in longer format. Kuldeep has good technique and does not throw his wicket away.

Indian tail starts from MSD. I always beleived and still believe that MSD should not be anywhere in Top 6 batsman. He should come in as No.8 or No.9.

Chahal is a decent upgrade over Jaddu and Ashwin in ODI's. But him playing lengthens our tail.

I would try our Krunal Pandya or Nitish Rana as a spinner/allrounder. They can bat very well and can be the finishers that India want.
 
Reminds me of the days of Robin Singh at 6 then Mongia, Srinath, Joshi, Kumble and Prasad.
 
BreadPakoda said:
When was it strong? India has always relied on its top/middle order.

This is India's weakest middle order in the last decade or so.

We had Yuvraj, peak Raina and Dhoni in late 2000s.

In 2011 World Cup, we had slotted Kohli in the lower middle order and Yusuf Pathan to follow up.

Tail was always weak and unreliable. The best we had were Jadeja, Bhajji, Kumble etc.
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When India was playing jadeja and ashwin as spinners, they had a decent batting. Jadeja, ashwin and kumar is not a bad 7, 8 or 9. But Bhuvu playing at 8 is trouble followed by kuldeep , chala and bumrah. Only Bhuvi is decent
 
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mkyawar said:
When India was playing jadeja and ashwin as spinners, they had a decent batting. Jadeja, ashwin and kumar is not a bad 7, 8 or 9. But Bhuvu playing at 8 is trouble followed by kuldeep , chala and bumrah. Only Bhuvi is decent
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Ashwin was an upgrade to what we have now but nowhere near the likes of Willey, your point of comparison in the OP.

England's lower order is potentially GOAT. Willey opens in domestics and I've watched one of his 100s. Insanely gifted batsman. He would bat above Pandya/Dhoni in our team and can open for many teams like Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc.
 
BreadPakoda said:
Ashwin was an upgrade to what we have now but nowhere near the likes of Willey, your point of comparison in the OP.

England's lower order is potentially GOAT. Willey opens in domestics and I've watched one of his 100s. Insanely gifted batsman. He would bat above Pandya/Dhoni in our team and can open for many teams like Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc.
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Englands lower order is goat. Imagine Woakes coming instead of Wood. You have Moeen, Wiley, Woakes, Rashid and Plunkett. Rashid has 10 first class hundreds while plunkett has 3.
 
That it turn gives the top and middle order more confidence to hit out knowing there's plenty of batting to come.

Gabbar Singh said:
Reminds me of the days of Robin Singh at 6 then Mongia, Srinath, Joshi, Kumble and Prasad.
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Thank you Gabbar for reminding me of my childhood.
 
India have well and truly strengthen their spin bowling since that CT final but today I realized their tail is really week even when bhuvi is back as they had Ashwin how is a proper bat batting at 9 in that final now they have duds like chahal at 9
Even dhoni is half a tailender now
 
Seems like not only Chahal and Kuldeep be showing there potential with the bowl but they will need to considerably show some improvement with the bat. With Bhuvi, Kuldeep, Chahal and Bumrah the tail, Bhuvi is the only one that can bat. The rest need to improve considerably, if not all then 1/2 of them.
 
It's pretty poor since Ashwin and Jadeja were dropped after FZ ruined their careers :azhar2 as they were both decent batsmen. Their current lower order could be a problem for them.
 
The tail is indeed poor but it doesn't matter. It's a bold decision by Kohli and Shastri to have specialists. India has long relied on bits and pieces bowlers who could score 20 odd while batting. Not anymore.

I for one agree with the Indian management's philosophy here. If India bowls first, by virtue of having specialists, it allows India to take wickets and curtail the score of the opposition. This relieves all the pressure on the Top 6 batsmen. Of course there are going to be exceptions like yesterday where the bowlers won't do their job, but then Kohli has so much faith in his Top 6 batsmen to do the job that he doesn't need number 8 and 9 to help them win the match.

For a long time Pakistan had the same strategy when Saqlain, Waqar, Shoaib used to play. 3 duds in batting. But those 3 took wickets and that's what matters. No point in having Ashwin who'd score 15 but have bowling figures of 1-55 in his 10 when you can have Kuldeep take 4-40 and change the whole complexion of the game.
 
Hasan123 said:
It's a very poor tail. India need to address this issue.
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I think the only solution is to drop their first choice bowlers which can potentially weaken the bowling.
Pakistan just happen to have found Shadab Khan and to some extent Faheem Ashraf who are first choice bowlers and are a decent bat. Not too long ago Pakistan were in the same shoes and were so desperate to find a lower order that it helped guys like Anwar Ali and Bilawal Bhatti make a career out of it.
 
shariqnoor said:
The tail is indeed poor but it doesn't matter. It's a bold decision by Kohli and Shastri to have specialists. India has long relied on bits and pieces bowlers who could score 20 odd while batting. Not anymore.

I for one agree with the Indian management's philosophy here. If India bowls first, by virtue of having specialists, it allows India to take wickets and curtail the score of the opposition. This relieves all the pressure on the Top 6 batsmen. Of course there are going to be exceptions like yesterday where the bowlers won't do their job, but then Kohli has so much faith in his Top 6 batsmen to do the job that he doesn't need number 8 and 9 to help them win the match.

For a long time Pakistan had the same strategy when Saqlain, Waqar, Shoaib used to play. 3 duds in batting. But those 3 took wickets and that's what matters. No point in having Ashwin who'd score 15 but have bowling figures of 1-55 in his 10 when you can have Kuldeep take 4-40 and change the whole complexion of the game.
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Totally agree with you!
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Indian batting only has a head and neck (top 4) rest of the body is non existent.
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Pandaya is useless, but Bhuvi and Kuldeep are underrated. I mean Kuldeep has decent numbers in domestic cricket as a tail-ender.

PS:Maybe Kohli can bat at 4 and give rahul a proper chance at 3?
 
Our tail starts after Kohli itself. Pandya the trundler don't have other gear so can't imagine him saving one end if wickets are going from other end. Kl Rahul hasn't do anything in middle order (in odis) to be considered good. Raina is done long ago idk why is he even back. Dhoni is worse than Bhuvi.
 
Sam99 said:
Our tail starts after Kohli itself. Pandya the trundler don't have other gear so can't imagine him saving one end if wickets are going from other end. Kl Rahul hasn't do anything in middle order (in odis) to be considered good. Raina is done long ago idk why is he even back. Dhoni is worse than Bhuvi.
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Raina is in the team because he was able to clear Yo Yo test which Jadhav couldn't. Jadhav himself is poor man's Raina. Our batsman at 5,6,7 are pretty weak.
 
If they are good enough bowlers they should play. India should play at least 4 genuine bowlers on bowling merit . Rest can be adjusted .
 
India must play Shami/Umesh in place of pandya. We atm have just two pacers bhuvi and bumrah. Bumrah is doing great job but bhuvi averages almost 40 in this format and he isn't wicket taker at all (but can be economical/good at death overs) so i would play Bhuvi, Shami & first change will be Bumrah along with two spinners chahal & yadav. About batting order we must play Dinesh Karthik (as we are unable to groom young talent in last 4 years).
 
Pandya is our 5th bowler and number 7 batsman. He is not going to win many matches on his own. Wonder why people hate him. His batting stats are okay - average of 30, SR of 115, only a few notches below Raina.

This team's problem are Raina and Dhoni, no one else.
 
cricketindiafan said:
Pandya is our 5th bowler and number 7 batsman. He is not going to win many matches on his own. Wonder why people hate him. His batting stats are okay - average of 30, SR of 115, only a few notches below Raina.

This team's problem are Raina and Dhoni, no one else.
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Because Pandya is the best since Kapil Dev according to some of our fellow members. He is a useless and harmless bowler. He is never going to pose any threat in the opposition batting order. Kapil Dev was not like this.

His batting is also inconsistent. He is going to perform in 1 out of 5 matches and keep getting selected on the basis of that.

Dhoni is a problem but we know he isn't going anywhere atleast till the next world cup ends. Raina can be dropped but who are his replacements? Pandey? Jadhav? Vijay Shankar?
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Because Pandya is the best since Kapil Dev according to some of our fellow members. He is a useless and harmless bowler. He is never going to pose any threat in the opposition batting order. Kapil Dev was not like this.

His batting is also inconsistent. He is going to perform in 1 out of 5 matches and keep getting selected on the basis of that.

Dhoni is a problem but we know he isn't going anywhere atleast till the next world cup ends. Raina can be dropped but who are his replacements? Pandey? Jadhav? Vijay Shankar?
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Looks like your hatred for Pandya is sky rocketing by the day. Is he really a useless and harmless player? Did you even watch 3rd T20 against England? He took 4 important wickets of top batsmen and it did help us to restrict them to low score and in turn winning a series. Just because you hate a player, doesn't mean he becomes useless. Kohli, Dhoni and Indian management sure know the value addition of Pandya better than You and he's of course a product of IPL.
 
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Tyler Durden said:
Looks like your hatred for Pandya is sky rocketing by the day. Is he really a useless and harmless player? Did you even watch 3rd T20 against England? He took 4 important wickets of top batsmen and it did help us to restrict them to low score and in turn winning a series. Just because you hate a player, doesn't mean he becomes useless. Kohli, Dhoni and Indian management sure know the value addition of Pandya better than You and he's of course a product of IPL.
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Just read the post again and then come back. I already said his batting is inconsistent and yeah he is a useless bowler. What did he do in the first 2 odi's?
 
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Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Just read the post again and then come back. I already said his batting is inconsistent and yeah he is a useless bowler. What did he do in the first 2 odi's?
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It is you who go hiding when pple like Hardik Pandya perform with the Ball. He took 4 wickets in the 3rd t20 and scored 30 odd runs in the same match helping India to win the decider match. It just happened a week ago! What's your answer for it?
 
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Tyler Durden said:
It is you who go hiding when pple like Hardik Pandya perform with the Ball. He took 4 wickets in the 3rd t20 and scored 30 odd runs in the same match helping India to win the decider match. It just happened a week ago! What's your answer for it?
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Again. Pandya is going to perform in 1 out of 5 matches. Just get used to it. And if you have so much faith in Kohli and the management then don't cry if Dhoni keeps getting selected too.
 
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Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Again. Pandya is going to perform in 1 out of 5 matches. Just get used to it. And if you have so much faith in Kohli and the management then don't cry if Dhoni keeps getting selected too.
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So if he performs in 1 match, that is irrelevant to you, but you choose and pick only the matches he don't perform because that's convinient for you to target these players? Dude! Kohli, Dhoni and Indian Management know a thing or two about these players. I'm not a supporter of Pandya, but the way you undermine and ignore his good performances is beyond tommyrot.
 
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Tyler Durden said:
So if he performs in 1 match, that is irrelevant to you, but you choose and pick only the matches he don't perform because that's convinient for you to target these players? Dude! Kohli, Dhoni and Indian Management know a thing or two about these players. I'm not a supporter of Pandya, but the way you undermine and ignore his good performances is beyond tommyrot.
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Now Dhoni who himself is becoming a burden on this team is going to select players? Lol.

You can be happy with mediocre and inconsistent players but don't expect everyone else to be like you here.
 
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Absolutely pathetic middle order and tail-enders. Indian bowling has become a joke without Bhuvi, Bumrah, and Shami.
 
This is the weakest middle and lower order in Indian cricket history. Bad times are ahead :(
 
I doubt. Neither Kohli nor BCCI would sit and relax. P Shaw, S Gill and Samson needs to be fast tracked.
 
GrandMaster said:
I doubt. Neither Kohli nor BCCI would sit and relax. P Shaw, S Gill and Samson needs to be fast tracked.
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Why would they play in the tail? Any way, Sanjay Bangar is not looking at these 3 right now. He has clearly mentioned that for the middle order Rahane, Rayudu and Pandey are the next in the wings.
 
Idk how we can win worldcup with such weak middle order. Our Leader of pace attack bhuvi averages almost 40 in odis. Pandya will pick wickets here and there but won't run through any side even if it's his day. Bumrah is very good but can't just rely on one pacer. The day opposition start picking kuldeep it's gonna be very hard to pick wickets.
 
India's tail starts after Virat Kohli. Its the worst tail in world cricket right now for sure
 
Importance of Irfan, Bhajji, Kumble @ no 7,8,9 as a batsmen.

India currently having a non existant lower order.Our tail starts at 7.
Gone are the days when we used to have Irfan@no 7, half decent batsmen like Bhajji and Kumble to follow.Zaheer @ no 11 could get 15 runs from his own.These 4 used to get 75-80 together and stay there with main batsmen.
Can we develop a lower order like this?
 
It's a balancing act.

These guys we have currently can seriously bowl well. We should work with them and improve their batting so they can at least generate 8-15 runs per innings apiece.

I'm sure it's a question of mindset, not technique.
 
Some numbers from the ongoing Aus-Ind series.....(borrowed from twitter).

Australia's Nos. 8-11 have made 227 runs off 520 balls with 18 fours and 1 six in the opening two Tests.

India's Tail have made 51 off 228 deliveries with just 4 fours.
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It is incredibly hard for tailenders to score abroad. Let us be realistic, what do you expect them to do when established batsmen find it hard to score in alien conditions?

Agreed, 10 runs a piece should not be too tough. But when you have a pitch like Perth, it makes it doubly tough for them. Agreed, people like Shami can score runs if they apply themselves a bit and our guys had a collective brain fade in the second innings at Adelaide.

MCG is expected to be flatter. Hoping for a better show.
 
Think India fans would prefer a bowling attack that can take 20 wickets rather than adding some runs. Obviously the runs are useful but that is the batsman's job.
 
The Viper said:
Think India fans would prefer a bowling attack that can take 20 wickets rather than adding some runs. Obviously the runs are useful but that is the batsman's job.
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True but having 4 bowlers who are not very good with the bat is a HUGE disadvantage! Need 6-7 wickets and you're in the tail and you can easily wrap them up. That's why I think Hardik Pandya will be very good for India's balance, decent bowler and a capable batsman as well.
 
hadi123 said:
True but having 4 bowlers who are not very good with the bat is a HUGE disadvantage! Need 6-7 wickets and you're in the tail and you can easily wrap them up. That's why I think Hardik Pandya will be very good for India's balance, decent bowler and a capable batsman as well.
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Yeah don't get me wrong i agree. India could draft in Ashwin/Jadeja/ Bhuvi to solve this problem. The Umesh Yadav selection was poor. Bhuvi or Jadeja should have played.
 
Ideally a 7, 8 & 9 that consists of Pandya, Ashwin and Bhuvi would be ideal.

But even that, with Pant not being established at 6, Pandya also requires fine tuning for Tests at 7, and then with Ashwin and Bhuvi at 8 & 9 puts a lot of onus on the top 5. And with failing openers, its really down to Pujara, Kohli and Rahane.

Having said that, its the job of the batsmen to score runs, and the top 7 need to be blamed for all the close losses we have had this year - 1st test SA, 1st test Eng, 4th Test Eng. If we had been able to overturn, even 2 of those results, we would have won at least 1 of those series.
 
AShwin at 8 is very good option , and you can expect him to get 25 odd runs .

If the bowlers are getting 20 wickets as a unit , I think its better to persist with them.
 
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