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Is AB de Villiers an ATG?

SL_Fan said:
WI have been rubbish for the most part post Ambrose/Walsh. Since then against the top seven WI have averaged 43 overall with the ball - breaking that down further 38+ at home and 48 away/neutral. Those are minnowish numbers fair to say significantly poorer than the worst of the top seven in all aspects. A definite outlier.
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SC batsmen still don't find it easy in WI. Sangakkara and Younis have poor record there.

Btw, Graeme Smith AVG slips down to 43 excluding WI, Ban and Zimbabwe.
 
Both Sanga and YK have only played 4/5 Tests in WI. Besides that doesn't change the fact that WI have averaged well over 38 with the ball at home since Ambrose/Walsh retired.
 
As for Smith that's why I believe he's over-rated by a few. Very good bat no doubt played some quality knocks but tough to put him up there in the ATG category. Even if you give him some leeway for opening the batting in SA (minus WI and minnows where he averaged just over 34 in 85 innings btw) an overall average of under 43 is just not good reading as far as ATG bats are concerned imo. Yes he did play some famous match/series winning knocks so he should get extra points there no doubt but it has to be said that he was also very fortunate to have played in such a strong team for those knocks to have actually amounted to something. Did nothing much in LOIs either. I would rank him alongside KP and Sehwag etc.
 
Anyways my own criteria to evaluate modern batsmen is minimum of 300 ODIs for the format.
 
Unfortunately I can't rate batsmen who can't turn up when his team needed him the most. According to me, he is not an ATG.
 
street cricketer said:
Do you rate Bevan as an ATG chow?
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Tough to make a fair argument in his favour. Bevan is an unlucky case tho that must be said. He’s definitely not a 29 averaging Test bat. I mean the guy only averaged what 57 with the bat in FC cricket. Unfortunately for him tho Oz just had too many options back then and he ended up getting pigeonholed as an ODI specialist.

As I said for me Tests is the starting point rest comes after.
 
de Villiers can definitely end his career as an ATG. He needs a couple of series where he is the main man for South Africa, instead of always playing second fiddle to Amla or Kallis, like he has done thus far. For that to happen, he absolutely needs to start batting at #4.

In ODIs, he's already there. Now it's just a matter of ending his career on a good note in that format.

street cricketer said:
Bevan?
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Is Bevan in the same league as Gavasker? No. An ODI ATG who isn't very good in the test format won't be rated as highly as someone who is a great in the test format. Dhoni and Bevan illustrate this perfectly. Saqlain and Lee as well.
 
Bilal7 said:
de Villiers can definitely end his career as an ATG. He needs a couple of series where he is the main man for South Africa, instead of always playing second fiddle to Amla or Kallis, like he has done thus far. For that to happen, he absolutely needs to start batting at #4.

In ODIs, he's already there. Now it's just a matter of ending his career on a good note in that format.



Is Bevan in the same league as Gavasker? No. An ODI ATG who isn't very good in the test format won't be rated as highly as someone who is a great in the test format. Dhoni and Bevan illustrate this perfectly. Saqlain and Lee as well.
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Bevan hardly played any test cricket. Comparing him with Dhoni is wrong. Bevan had a problem facing short balls. Eventually, he fixed it but it was too late. Australia had an ATG team so there was no space for him.
 
Is AB de Villiers an all-time great?

Keeping any particular format aside. In terms of overall, considering stats, consistency and peer reputation, do you think he will become an ATG when he retires?

A batting average of 50+ in tests and odis both and a modern day pioneer of 360° innovative batting display.

Discuss!
 
I think so. Would be better if he stuck to batting and not keeping in the tests.
 
I think yes.

A great test cricketer and one of the top5 greatest ever odi bats of all time who has got stats and peer reputation as you mentioned.

He is a very exciting and popular cricketer unlike Kallis or Pollock or Smith who are accused of being boring and which is what people bring out as an excuse for not rating those South Africans highly.

IMO among the present day generation players, I think Smith, Kohli and ABDV will go down as one of alltime greats and will be remembered for a longer time in cricket history. The former two might and should surpass even ABD.

In today's era, runs in both tests and odis matter and you have to be successful in both in my views.
 
Taking all formats , he will go down as an ATG for me.
 
He is overrated but still an ATG, which means he has underachieved. He had the talent to be one of the top 5 batsmen of all time.
 
Yes he is an ATG.
ATM,he is best batsmen of this generation.Kohli should overtake him but doubt players like Smith,Root,Williamson would overtake ABD.
 
Yes! Only after Kohli! I will put him above Kohli when he can win matches for his team by chasing totals!
 
Most definitely. He also has two or three years to further cement his legacy.
 
Yes he is. But shouldn't be compared with the elite batsmen of all time such as Sachin,Lara,Punter, and Viv.
 
In terms of performance, yes, he is one the ATGs .

In terms of native ability, the greatest ever.
 
Is AB de Villiers underrated or overrated in tests?

Some call him an average test batsmen who had an underwhelming test career while others call him an ATG.

Where would you rank AB among his contemporaries in the longer format? He has 8700 odd runs at avg of 50.66 over 114 tests. Remember he kept gloves too at its peak which restrained his batting.
 
[MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] , [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] , [MENTION=139975]The_Odd_One[/MENTION]
 
Considering his potential he has under performed in tests but he isnt the only one KP, Inzi are some other extraordinary talents which achieved a lot but not enough to do justice to the talent they possessed.
 
SLcric123 said:
[MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] , [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] , [MENTION=139975]The_Odd_One[/MENTION]
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Apart from Viv in terms of pure all-round skill can’t say that I’ve seen a better bat in any form of the game. In terms of output however he still has a few things left to prove in Test cricket for mine. I mean as of now he’s averaging a bit over 50 with just 22 Test tons in 191 outings. Now compare those numbers with say Smith who is averaging 61+ with 23 Test tons in 117 innings or Kohli who is averaging 53+ with 21 Test tons in 112 innings and it’s quite apparent that it’s more a case of him under-achieving than being under-rated. Even though he has lost ground still got at least another good 3 or so years left in him to get himself back up there. The question is whether he’s up for it or not. Only time will tell I guess.
 
He played in a loaded team where G smith, Amla and Kallis often batted ahead of him. Therefore, these guys often scored hundreds, leaving AB with less opportunity to score hundreds.

In the last two series, with no ATG batsmen on his team barring a faded Amla, he has stepped up and helped his team win. SA would have lost to India if it wasn't for AB and might not have beaten Aus either. He was already ATG for me as he has played many splendid knocks, but the series vs Aus should seal it for me.
 
SL_Fan said:
Apart from Viv in terms of pure all-round skill can’t say that I’ve seen a better bat in any form of the game. In terms of output however he still has a few things left to prove in Test cricket for mine. I mean as of now he’s averaging a bit over 50 with just 22 Test tons in 191 outings. Now compare those numbers with say Smith who is averaging 61+ with 23 Test tons in 117 innings or Kohli who is averaging 53+ with 21 Test tons in 112 innings and it’s quite apparent that it’s more a case of him under-achieving than being under-rated. Even though he has lost ground still got at least another good 3 or so years left in him to get himself back up there. The question is whether he’s up for it or not. Only time will tell I guess.
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Where would you put him among players debuted in 2000s?
 
SLcric123 said:
Some call him an average test batsmen who had an underwhelming test career while others call him an ATG.

Where would you rank AB among his contemporaries in the longer format? He has 8700 odd runs at avg of 50.66 over 114 tests. Remember he kept gloves too at its peak which restrained his batting.
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I think a country great in tests strictly as on now. Some easy series coming ahead. We will conclude after looking at avgs and tons once he get to 10, 000 test runs landmark.
 
GoAT contender in ODIs. Somehwat overrated in Tests though. His conversion rate is terrible, and was always a second fiddle to Kallis, Amla and Smith. No ATG is below 3 batsmen in his own team
 
Joseph Gomes said:
GoAT contender in ODIs. Somehwat overrated in Tests though. His conversion rate is terrible, and was always a second fiddle to Kallis, Amla and Smith. No ATG is below 3 batsmen in his own team
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Personally think his counter attack was the reason that SA won the Tests against India.
 
DeadBall said:
Personally think his counter attack was the reason that SA won the Tests against India.
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Maybe yeah, but he has too few of those innings in his career. He has underachieved a lot like Sehwag. Sehwag was too inconsistent and ABD's is lack of daddy hundreds.
 
SLcric123 said:
Where would you put him among players debuted in 2000s?
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Skill-wise the best of the lot for me but I think it largely depends on what he decides to do from hereon-in. Will he step-up and take charge at a time when SA needs him the most or will he continue to pick and choose and throw tantys. It's all up to him. As of right now only Steyn and Sanga are ATGs from the 2000s lot for me. From there taking all formats into consideration you have AB, KP, Amla, Sehwag, YK, Clarke, G Smith, Cook and Mike Hussey to make up the top ten imo.
 
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Joseph Gomes said:
GoAT contender in ODIs. Somehwat overrated in Tests though. His conversion rate is terrible, and was always a second fiddle to Kallis, Amla and Smith. <B>No ATG is below 3 batsmen in his own team</B>
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Not too sure of that. What about Marshall, Garner, Holding and Roberts?
 
Talent wise and play wise he is. He can play outrageous shots that only people can dream of. At the same time, he can also play Textbook style shots too.

The only issue is, he does not seem to have the will to win at any cost like Kohli.

To me, ABDV is a lot more talented than Kohli, Smith etc. But the latter too have the drive to win at any cost which seem to be missing in ABDV.

Overall, AB should be considered an ATG. He is a genius with the bat. Anyone who watches him play for 15 mins will know he is a freak with the bat.
 
AB is to batting what Pollock is to bowling for SA , aside from the fact that they are completely opposite to each other in terms of flair.
 
To me he is the Wasim Akram of batting. Better in white ball than red ball and a magician but someone who should have better stats for the skills he possesses.
 
AFM said:
To me he is the Wasim Akram of batting. Better in white ball than red ball and a magician but someone who should have better stats for the skills he possesses.
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In terms of skills, he is the Wasim Akram of batting.

In terms of performance though, he is to batting what Pollock was to bowling for SA.
 
Is that even up for a debate. He's obviously an ATG even though he has severely underachieved due his inability to handle pressure.
 
I have hardly seen ABD perform when there is a hint of pressure. He may do well in setting a target but not great when chasing in a big game.
 
King-Misbah said:
I have hardly seen ABD perform when there is a hint of pressure. He may do well in setting a target but not great when chasing in a big game.
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sure, the second game of the test series vs Aus recently wasn't under pressure? Or they game when SA chased 414 vs Aus? Come on
 
He lacks ruthlessness which Smith or Kohli has.

He is still an ATG because he is brilliant in many other aspects of the game.
 
PP experts might call him whatever but the fact is he is a superstar and arguably the most famous cricketer of the current generation..
 
ATG in an incredible team yet no trophies, only humiliating losses in tournaments. ATG retires before the WC ,when his country needed him, to not have to face another embarrassment. :rabada2
 
Darkrai said:
ATG in an incredible team yet no trophies, only humiliating losses in tournaments. ATG retires before the WC ,when his country needed him, to not have to face another embarrassment. :rabada2
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Good thing it's not up to you otherwise Gayle would still be playing for Windies since they need him so much :P
 
The second greatest ODI batsman of all-time. However, not an ATG in test cricket.
 
ATG in ODIs, not there in Tests

And lol at him being a GOAT contender in ODIs, he's nowhere near being top 2 of his generation let alone top 3-4 of all time :91:
 
Ozymandiasza said:
Good thing he wasn't a choker.

On the topic: Yes, absolutely. I'm biased, however :P
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He left you a year out from the WC, how are you not livid? You basically have zero chance winning the WC now. Would be hilarious to see SA win without the coward.

Bilal7 said:
The second greatest ODI batsman of all-time. However, not an ATG in test cricket.
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I bet you're the same type of person who criticizes Sachin for never winning a WC until 2011 or scoring runs in knockouts/pressure matches.
 
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Ozymandiasza said:
Good thing it's not up to you otherwise Gayle would still be playing for Windies since they need him so much :P
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If it was up to me Hafeez, Azhar, and Malik would not be any where near our ODI team.

AB is far superior ODI batsman than Gayle. Gayle is 38 while AB is 34. One would understand his retirement decision if he was out of form or just declining as a cricketer but it has been the opposite. The kind of fielding and batting form he has shown recently would surely have been a great help to SA in the WC. But he wasn't mentally strong enough.
 
Darkrai said:
If it was up to me Hafeez, Azhar, and Malik would not be any where near our ODI team.

AB is far superior ODI batsman than Gayle. Gayle is 38 while AB is 34. One would understand his retirement decision if he was out of form or just declining as a cricketer but it has been the opposite. The kind of fielding and batting form he has shown recently would surely have been a great help to SA in the WC. But he wasn't mentally strong enough.
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He probably knew another failure would hurt his legacy and got out.

People criticized Messi for retiring, but that was in the moment of pain of losing a third straight final. He came back and carried his country to another WC, he's now going into a WC with a far weaker side unlike AB who still has a strong side who can win the WC if they fire.

What AB is doing here is gutless, but watch hypocrites like [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] celebrate him when he left his country high and dry a year out from the WC.
 
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Aman said:
He left you a year out from the WC, how are you not livid? You basically have zero chance winning the WC now. Would be hilarious to see SA win without the coward.
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I would have liked for him to stay, sure. Who doesn't want to see AB bat? Not up to me though. If it was up to me many players would still be playing. If AB says he's done and tired, I believe him. He's given more to South African cricket and cricket in general than most players ever do or will do. 2015 was our best chance and we blew it. I was livid back then about it.

Change is a natural and good thing.
 
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Ozymandiasza said:
I'm would have liked for him to stay, sure. Who doesn't want to see AB bat? Not up to me though. If it was up to me many players would still be playing. If AB says he's done and tired, I believe him. He's given more to South African cricket and cricket in general than most players ever do or will do. 2015 was our best chance and we blew it. I was livid back then about it.

Change is a natural and good thing.
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Doesn't matter mate, he's in good form and can't stick it out for one more year after 2015? That's a load of croak, he was shattered after 2015 and any player in that position would want another crack. This is 100% him chickening out.
 
Aman said:
He probably knew another failure would hurt his legacy and got out.

People criticized Messi for retiring, but that was in the moment of pain of losing a third straight final. He came back and carried his country to another WC, he's now going into a WC with a far weaker side unlike AB who still has a strong side who can win the WC if they fire.

What AB is doing here is gutless, but watch hypocrites like [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] celebrate him when he left his country high and dry a year out from the WC.
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Perhaps he'll pull a Messi. That would be awesome.

Ag, I've learned take ODIs, and sport in general, less serious. Watching the Proteas fail so much kind of desensitizes you :P

Rugby though, that's another story...
 
Ozymandiasza said:
Perhaps he'll pull a Messi. That would be awesome.

Ag, I've learned take ODIs, and sport in general, less serious. Watching the Proteas fail so much kind of desensitizes you :P

Rugby though, that's another story...
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True, I'm use to seeing the Black Caps bomb out lol. I'm expecting nothing next year and I probably wont have any expectations in them until we have a golden generation with a couple of ATGs and 3-4 world class players.

Don't need to worry about ABs, because all we do is win :P
 
On reputation , he is ATG , but factually a great player or perhaps borderline ATG but not a first tier one.
 
Aman said:
He probably knew another failure would hurt his legacy and got out.

People criticized Messi for retiring, but that was in the moment of pain of losing a third straight final. He came back and carried his country to another WC, he's now going into a WC with a far weaker side unlike AB who still has a strong side who can win the WC if they fire.

What AB is doing here is gutless, but watch hypocrites like [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] celebrate him when he left his country high and dry a year out from the WC.
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Very good comparison with Messi. Without Messi Argentina wouldn't even be in the WC, without him they get smashed by big teams like Spain. Even though Argentina is a mess of a team, they have almost no chance of winning this WC unless some miracle happens, Messi still has hope. This is his last chance to try to win a WC for his country and he is willing to give it his all even if it means suffering another emotional defeat.
Just wish same character was shown by AB. Like you said, Ab has it a lot easier than Messi in almost every way. Maybe there is something else we don't know that caused AB to make this decision.
 
AB should come back for a shot in WC 2019. If that happens, he will be an undisputed ATG.
 
no. all time great is too easily used these days. Inmho there are not many all time greats.
 
Yes, there is no one path to greatness. Sure he has underachieved and has let his team down on certain occasions.

He was also a weak leader and did not possess the killer instinct of someone like Kohli, who has maximized his ability unlike de Villiers, but he left a massive impression on the game his 14 year career.

Arguably the most multi-skilled cricketer in history. A world class dasher, a world class blocker, a world class fielder and a world class keeper. He took versatility and explosive batting to the next level.

Along with Kohli, he is the most memorable cricketer of this era and will be remembered in history. Truly a once in many generations cricketer, who played the game like a schoolboy, and perhaps that is the way the game should be played.

It would have been great to see him have one final crack at the World Cup, and unlike some of his team-mates, he deserves to win the World Cup, but he was never appeared as someone who cared about accolades and prizes.

World Cups, 10,000 runs etc. probably meant nothing to him, he played the game for as long as he wanted to, without worrying about numbers and milestones, and maybe this freedom allowed him to do things others could only dream of, and perhaps this freedom created the illusion that he did not achieve as much as he could have.
 
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