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Is England's lower order the best in Test cricket history?

KP From India

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Eng often tumbles @ 100/5, end up getting a score of 280 or 300+. It had happened on Eng wickets as well in subcontinent.
The team virtually have no tail ender from 6-11. Someday @100/5, Curran will get 70 odd, on other day Wokes joins the party. Bairstow does it again and again, Rashid gets 20-30s. Is this the best lower order?
 
Yes its, In the past there was never much focus on lower ordering batting from teams but that has changed recently and team are focusing on lower order batting a bit more. And this England side as a result has the strongest lower order batting so far.

In the past I can remember NZ having a fairly strong lower order with the likes of Vettory and Cairns and that was quit good considering that only happened by chance and not by planning which is the case with this current England side.
 
I guess, I don't think have never seen a lower order as consistently dominant as England, and I have seen cricket for more than 15 years now. England lower order consistently bails team out every 1 in 3 innings from collapse to a respectable score, this frequency would be unthinkable 15 years ago.
 
Any side with Gilchrist at #7 is pretty fierce.....

Seriously this is a strong England bottom five. Ten years back we had Broad at #8 (a century and eleven fifties) and Swann at #9 (regular hitter of 25 or so).

It’s a far cry from the eighties side that had Taylor at 7 averaging 20, then four number elevens.
 
Not just in tests. The current English team also has the strongest lower order/tail among all LOI sides as well. And by a long distance, at that.

I mentioned this several times during India's tour to England that the difference between India and England was in their lower orders. But nobody was willing to listen to me. Everyone was happy to exclusively blame the regular batsmen even though India's top 6 outscored England's top 6 by a fair margin in that series. On the other hand, the English lower order scored almost twice as many runs as India's lower order.
 
It's very strong but it's partly out of necessity. They needed to compensate for a weak top and middle order since the departures of Strauss, Trott and Pietersen (and Cook's decline).
 
By lower order, I believe it's from No. 7 to 11. Different era, therefore direct statistical comparison isn't fair, but indeed it's one of the better one. One significant difference from olden days is that, now days we pick WK for batting first, but some of the best ever WKs had batted at 10 or even 11, which made the tail longer.

But, overall, I do believe there were few better bottom halves in history. Here are some -

I think, this one is definitely the best ever - AUS of mid 1950s. Sometimes between 1954 to 1958, AUS had a bottom 5 from RK Miller, AK Davidson, Richie Benaud, Ron Archer, IW Johnson, RR Lindwall and WK Grout or Langley. IICRC, RR Lindwall has 2 Test 100s from No. 10 and Langley batted at 11 some times!!!

After that, not in particular order,

One of the most under rated teams of cricket history is the SAF side in late 60s, just before the ban. They were the true modern team with proper bowling all-rounders. That time, their bottom 5 were often between Dennis Lindsay, PJ Procter, Tiger Lance, Peter Pollock & Trimborn

Then the unfortunate incident took place & SAF went to cricket exile for 20 years, which resulted some of their best players leaving for ENG/AUS; otherwise sometimes in mid 1970s, SAF could have a bottom 6 of Dennis Lindsey, AW (Tony) Greig, Clive Rice, MJ Procter, Garth Le Roux & Vincent Van Der Bijl - those no. 10 & 11 guys were good enough to bat at 7 & 8 in a highly competitive County games with 4 foreign imports allowed in every team.

PAK of 1970s - at some point, it had Mushtaq, Wasim Raja, Imran, Intekhab, Sarfraz, Wasim Bari in lat 5. Bari actually had a famous partnership with Raja for 10th wicket in WIN (100+)

AUS of Ponting era - Gilchrist at 7, Lee, Warne, Gillespee & Mac was definitely better bottom 5 than current ENG - Gilly alone should cover the equation.

Sometimes in 1980s, IND had a bottom 5 of Shastri/Azad, Kirmani, Kapil, Binney, Madan, Shivarama/Yadav - I personally rate that bottom 5 much higher than this ENG team, but they played in different era, in different tempo, therefore comparison in unfair.

Imran's PAK at one point had Himself at 7, Yousuf, Wasim, Qadir & Qasim/Tauseef/Waquar - and that's quite handy lower half.

SAF team of late 1990s had Boucher, Pollock, Lance Kluesner, Symcox/Boje/Crooks and B Mac (before Lance), Fannie De Villers in their bottom half - and I'll take that tail ahead of this ENG line-up any given day.

In olden days, often WK used to bat at 10-11, hence some of the best pre WW2 teams can't compared here, but the Ashes of 1902 had two of the best bottom halves in cricket - AUS had Warwick Armstrong, Monty Noble, Trumble & Hopkins in last 5, while ENG had Brund, Rhodes, Gilbert Jessop, Hirst & Lockwood in bottom 5. I am sure, Armstrong's 1921 Ashes team was great as well with Armstrong, Jack Gregory & Ted Mcdonald batting in last 5.

NZ has produced some of the best Bowling all-rounders in the game and one of their strength had always been batting contribution from bowlers. Sometimes in 1990s, their bottom 5 had Cairns, Smith, Dan Vet & Dion Nash - that can't be worse than current Pom bottom half - no way.

I am missing few more teams definitely, probably SAF of 1930s or 1910s, but those days Test cricket was played so little that by volume, finding any significant trend is almost impossible.

No credit taken away, but I feel ENG is enjoying the millennial fever - everything is instant these days, and people get excited at first cracker. Their bottom half contains a debutante in this Series and another one in last series .... and another guy playing 7th Test at a trot after retiring from FC!!!! May be, we should wait a little more to credit someone best of what is now a history of almost 150 years.
 
Pakistan of the 1980 and 70's comes to my mind.Imagine Abdul Qadir,Wasim Akram and Salim Yousuf batting so low down.Qadir has scored fifties and Wasim centuries.In the 1970's Wasim Bari batted last man with Imran at 7 down.

What about India in 1983 wit the likes of Syed Kirmani,Roger Binny,Madan Lal and Balwinder Singh Sandhu who all were capable batsmen?


India and Pakistan of those times right up there.
 
By lower order, I believe it's from No. 7 to 11. Different era, therefore direct statistical comparison isn't fair, but indeed it's one of the better one. One significant difference from olden days is that, now days we pick WK for batting first, but some of the best ever WKs had batted at 10 or even 11, which made the tail longer.

But, overall, I do believe there were few better bottom halves in history. Here are some -

I think, this one is definitely the best ever - AUS of mid 1950s. Sometimes between 1954 to 1958, AUS had a bottom 5 from RK Miller, AK Davidson, Richie Benaud, Ron Archer, IW Johnson, RR Lindwall and WK Grout or Langley. IICRC, RR Lindwall has 2 Test 100s from No. 10 and Langley batted at 11 some times!!!

After that, not in particular order,

One of the most under rated teams of cricket history is the SAF side in late 60s, just before the ban. They were the true modern team with proper bowling all-rounders. That time, their bottom 5 were often between Dennis Lindsay, PJ Procter, Tiger Lance, Peter Pollock & Trimborn

Then the unfortunate incident took place & SAF went to cricket exile for 20 years, which resulted some of their best players leaving for ENG/AUS; otherwise sometimes in mid 1970s, SAF could have a bottom 6 of Dennis Lindsey, AW (Tony) Greig, Clive Rice, MJ Procter, Garth Le Roux & Vincent Van Der Bijl - those no. 10 & 11 guys were good enough to bat at 7 & 8 in a highly competitive County games with 4 foreign imports allowed in every team.

PAK of 1970s - at some point, it had Mushtaq, Wasim Raja, Imran, Intekhab, Sarfraz, Wasim Bari in lat 5. Bari actually had a famous partnership with Raja for 10th wicket in WIN (100+)

AUS of Ponting era - Gilchrist at 7, Lee, Warne, Gillespee & Mac was definitely better bottom 5 than current ENG - Gilly alone should cover the equation.

Sometimes in 1980s, IND had a bottom 5 of Shastri/Azad, Kirmani, Kapil, Binney, Madan, Shivarama/Yadav - I personally rate that bottom 5 much higher than this ENG team, but they played in different era, in different tempo, therefore comparison in unfair.

Imran's PAK at one point had Himself at 7, Yousuf, Wasim, Qadir & Qasim/Tauseef/Waquar - and that's quite handy lower half.

SAF team of late 1990s had Boucher, Pollock, Lance Kluesner, Symcox/Boje/Crooks and B Mac (before Lance), Fannie De Villers in their bottom half - and I'll take that tail ahead of this ENG line-up any given day.

In olden days, often WK used to bat at 10-11, hence some of the best pre WW2 teams can't compared here, but the Ashes of 1902 had two of the best bottom halves in cricket - AUS had Warwick Armstrong, Monty Noble, Trumble & Hopkins in last 5, while ENG had Brund, Rhodes, Gilbert Jessop, Hirst & Lockwood in bottom 5. I am sure, Armstrong's 1921 Ashes team was great as well with Armstrong, Jack Gregory & Ted Mcdonald batting in last 5.

NZ has produced some of the best Bowling all-rounders in the game and one of their strength had always been batting contribution from bowlers. Sometimes in 1990s, their bottom 5 had Cairns, Smith, Dan Vet & Dion Nash - that can't be worse than current Pom bottom half - no way.

I am missing few more teams definitely, probably SAF of 1930s or 1910s, but those days Test cricket was played so little that by volume, finding any significant trend is almost impossible.

No credit taken away, but I feel ENG is enjoying the millennial fever - everything is instant these days, and people get excited at first cracker. Their bottom half contains a debutante in this Series and another one in last series .... and another guy playing 7th Test at a trot after retiring from FC!!!! May be, we should wait a little more to credit someone best of what is now a history of almost 150 years.

India of 1983 with players like Roger Binny.Madan lal, Syed Kirmani and Balwinder Singh Sandhu who all scored test fifties.Kirmani even a century .


Pakistan of 1987 gets my vote with the skill of Wasim and Qadir at the very end jointly with India of 1983.
 
Very good lower order. Honestly, it was Asian conditions that mattered where if they could have got those runs or not and guys like Curran, Foakes or Rashid have done well till now.
 
It certainly is the best lower order I can remember, but I’ve only watched cricket since 2000.

A recent lower order which had the capability to score big was the Aussies of Haddin, Johnson, Starc, Harris/Siddle and Lyon. All capable of scoring 50s on their day. The fact that Johnson and Starc more often than not tried to just swing for the fences rather than apply themselves means they probably left a lot of unscored runs behind. Johnson SHOULD’VE scored more than his one test 100, and I don’t understand how Starc hasn’t got one yet either.
 
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