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Is Graeme Smith an ATG batsman?

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SLcric123

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Graeme Smith has played 117 tests and scored 9265 runs at an avg of 48.26 with 27 hundreds.

Do you think he is an ATG as he has failed vs three teams i.e. Australia, India and Sri Lanka averaging below 40 against them.

Or is he just a modern day great batsmen?Views?
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
ATG cos he is opener playing in SA and clutch.
Click to expand...

How does that help? His record in SA against good teams aren't good. Mostly failed against top teams there.His overall avg also dips a lot excluding minnows and WI.

He has been mediocre in SC too barring UAE flat pattas.
 
SLcric123 said:
How does that help? His record in SA against good teams aren't good. Mostly failed against top teams there.His overall avg also dips a lot excluding minnows and WI.

He has been mediocre in SC too barring UAE flat pattas.
Click to expand...

Openers are rated with different yardsticks. That too those who play in countries where the new ball jags around.

Smith is the best opener post 2000. That is a huge huge deal.

He averages 44 in SL, 44 in Pakistan, 70 in UAE and 35 in India.

Asia - 49 average.

How is that a mediocre record?

Also in every country except India and Aus...he averages above 40. In Aus, he averaged 39.xx.

Yes, his record in SA isn't the best (41.xx) but then he opened and in places like SA, its NOT AT ALL easy.

When you have an amazing away record and your home record (playing in a country where the new ball does a LOT) is more than decent and you are an opener and you are a clutch player...you are an ATG.

G Smith is very under-rated. Can struggle against some attacks but makes up for it with grit.
 
Last edited:
He is not an ATG batsman but definitely an ATG opener. It is very hard to find ATG openers because opening in tests is the toughest job and there are only a very few ATG batsmen/openers. The last ATG test batsman/opener was Gavaskar.

Smith failed against 3 teams: Australia, Indian and SL.

India and SL never had top fast bowling attacks during Smith's time so failing against them does not take away anything from his opener credentials.

Failing against Australia can be disregarded because every great batsman has failed against one or two teams. BTW, Smith still scored 3 centuries vs Australia and averaged 39 in Australia so he was not a total failure.

He did well against Pakistan, NZ, and England (all good fast bowling attacks). Scored a double century in UAE. So, his overall record is pretty balanced.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Openers are rated with different yardsticks. That too those who play in countries where the new ball jags around.

Smith is the best opener post 2000. That is a huge huge deal.

He averages 44 in SL, 44 in Pakistan, 70 in UAE and 35 in India.

Asia - 49 average.

How is that a mediocre record?

Also in every country except India and Aus...he averages above 40. In Aus, he averaged 39.xx.

Yes, his record in SA isn't the best (41.xx) but then he opened and in places like SA, its NOT AT ALL easy.

When you have an amazing away record and your home record (playing in a country where the new ball does a LOT) is more than decent and you are an opener and you are a clutch player...you are an ATG.

G Smith is very under-rated. Can struggle against some attacks but makes up for it with grit.
Click to expand...

His numbers are inflated by runs against poor attacks like WI, Zim and Ban.

He avgs only 34 in South Africa against top 6 teams excluding WI and minnows.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...default;team=3;template=results;type=allround

His overall avg dips to 43 excluding WI and minnows. He is underrated because he has piled on runs against minnows mostly.
 
The_Odd_One said:
He is not an ATG batsman but definitely an ATG opener. It is very hard to find ATG openers because opening in tests is the toughest job and there are only a very few ATG batsmen/openers. The last ATG test batsman/opener was Gavaskar.

Smith failed against 3 teams: Australia, Indian and SL.

India and SL never had top fast bowling attacks during Smith's time so failing against them does not take away anything from his opener credentials.

Failing against Australia can be disregarded because every great batsman has failed against one or two teams. BTW, Smith still scored 3 centuries vs Australia and averaged 39 in Australia so he was not a total failure.

He did well against Pakistan, NZ, and England (all good fast bowling attacks). Scored a double century in UAE. So, his overall record is pretty balanced.
Click to expand...

I think he struggled big time against Zaheer Khan.So he is poor vs India both home and away.

India and SL have good spinners. He wasn't that comfortable vs spin.
 
SLcric123 said:
I think he struggled big time against Zaheer Khan.So he is poor vs India both home and away.

India and SL have good spinners. He wasn't that comfortable vs spin.
Click to expand...

Zaheer Khan was not an ATG fast bowler.

As a test opener, his job was to see off new ball against fast bowlers which he did. Failing against spinner does not go against opening batsmen usually.

That is why I said he was an ATG opener but not an ATG batsman.
 
SLcric123 said:
His numbers are inflated by runs against poor attacks like WI, Zim and Ban.

He avgs only 34 in South Africa against top 6 teams excluding WI and minnows.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...default;team=3;template=results;type=allround

His overall avg dips to 43 excluding WI and minnows. He is underrated because he has piled on runs against minnows mostly.
Click to expand...

So did he pile on against minnows when he toured

England in England
NZ in NZ
SL in SL
Pak in Pak
Pak in UAE

And did well.

Everyone has a bit of flaws in their records. Including ATGs.

He is not a top tier supreme ATG bat. A great bat though. ATG cos he was opener.

ATG opener we can say.

If you average 48 with balanced away records, you are golden.
 
Last edited:
Graeme Smith shouldn't be judged by his stats. He was actually far better than his stats although he was a bit of weak bowling bully.

But he had the best temprament and one of the biggest match winners SA ever produced.

The most gutsiest SA player ahead of the likes of Kallis, Pollock or Donald in terms of grittiness .
 
Ab Fan said:
Graeme Smith shouldn't be judged by his stats. He was actually far better than his stats although he was a bit of weak bowling bully.

But he had the best temprament and one of the biggest match winners SA ever produced.

The most gutsiest SA player ahead of the likes of Kallis, Pollock or Donald in terms of grittiness .
Click to expand...

I think Gary Kirsten was the gustiest batsman SA has ever produced.

It is not easy to come back to bat against rampaging Akhtar after he broke your jaw.
 
SLcric123 said:
Graeme Smith has played 117 tests and scored 9265 runs at an avg of 48.26 with 27 hundreds.

Do you think he is an ATG as he has failed vs three teams i.e. Australia, India and Sri Lanka averaging below 40 against them.

Or is he just a modern day great batsmen?Views?
Click to expand...

Stats say so but the impact was huge vs Aus. A century while chasing 414 at Perth and century at Adelaide in that game where SA drew due to match saving knock of Faf and AB.
 
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The_Odd_One said:
I think Gary Kirsten was the gustiest batsman SA has ever produced.

It is not easy to come back to bat against rampaging Akhtar after he broke your jaw.
Click to expand...

Yes but Smith was a bigger match winner. Didn't saw much of Kirsten.So can't really say.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
So did he pile on against minnows when he toured

England in England
NZ in NZ
SL in SL
Pak in Pak
Pak in UAE

And did well.

Everyone has a bit of flaws in their records. Including ATGs.

He is not a top tier supreme ATG bat. A great bat though. ATG cos he was opener.

ATG opener we can say.

If you average 48 with balanced away records, you are golden.
Click to expand...

Is he better than Hayden? Hayden was a supreme odi bat too.
 
Ab Fan said:
Stats say so but the impact was huge vs Aus. A century while chasing 414 at Perth and century at Adelaide in that game where SA drew due to match saving knock of Faf and AB.
Click to expand...

The Adelaide game credit goes to Faf the most. In that 414 chase, I would say Ab deserves credit for that knock. PossiblY his best as he finished off from 179-3.
 
The_Odd_One said:
SIF, how do you rank Hayden, Smith, Sehwag, Langer, and Cook in tests only?
Click to expand...

Haven't really thought about it like that.

So don't have a clear place for all in my mind as of now.

I guess:

Smith
Sehwag (impact)
Cook
Hayden/Langar

Diff is marginal only.

Maybe list may go through changes over time.
 
Last edited:
Openers have to be judged in comparison with other openers of the time.
 
To be fair, I won't call Graeme Smith an ATG batsmen but he is clearly an ATG opener and hence a great batsmen.

Quite a few things go against him:

His record vs as many as three of top 6 teams are below par.

His overall stat against top seven isn't of ATG sort i.e an avg of 43.0.

He was neither a great odi player and was well behind the likes of AB, Kallis, Amla and Gibbs in LOIs.

But I did stated already that his numbers don't do justice to his performance and his ability to win games for his team.IMO, he is a great batsmen and an ATG opener.
 
Last edited:
Without question. A rare South African cricketer with real guts.
 
He definitely was a great, if not an ATG batsman. Better opener than Hayden, Cook, Sehwag, Anwar, etc.

I don't agree with giving openers any extra leeway. Spinners don't get it, neither should openers.
 
WI bashing aside it’s tough to make a case for him as an ATG bat imo.

Tests vs top six - 6.8k runs at 42.8 with 16 tons in 169 innings
Link

Even if you give him some leeway for opening the batting in SA (minus WI and minnows where he averaged just over 34 in 84 innings btw) it’s still not good reading as far as ATG bats are concerned imo. Yes he did play some famous match/series winning knocks so he should get extra points there no doubt but it has to be said that he was also very fortunate to have played in such a strong team for those knocks to have actually amounted to something.

ODIs excluding minnows - 5.4k runs at under 35 striking at a bit over 79 with 8 tons in 161 innings
Link

Just a single ton in ICC tourneys (excluding minnows) in 35 innings (in CT) and 4 50s (3 WC plus 1 CT). All in all a fairly average LOI record at best with nothing much to show for it.

So taking all that into consideration he ends up just below ATG level for mine alongside guys like Sehwag, KP, Hayden etc.
 
No question about it, he helped his team win tests series in england and Australia with some top inns.
 
Batting record as opener

Tests
[table=width: 700, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Rank [/td][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Inns [/td][td]NO [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]HS [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]L Hutton (Eng) [/td][td]1937-1955 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]6721 [/td][td]364 [/td][td]56.47 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]31 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]JB Hobbs (Eng) [/td][td]1908-1930 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]97 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]5130 [/td][td]211 [/td][td]56.37 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]ML Hayden (Aus) [/td][td]1994-2009 [/td][td]103 [/td][td]184 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]8625 [/td][td]380 [/td][td]50.73 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]SM Gavaskar (India) [/td][td]1971-1987 [/td][td]119 [/td][td]203 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]9607 [/td][td]221 [/td][td]50.29 [/td][td]33 [/td][td]42 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]V Sehwag (ICC/India) [/td][td]2002-2013 [/td][td]99 [/td][td]170 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]8207 [/td][td]319 [/td][td]50.04 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]30 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]GC Smith (ICC/SA) [/td][td]2002-2014 [/td][td]114 [/td][td]196 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]9030 [/td][td]277 [/td][td]49.07 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]JL Langer (Aus) [/td][td]1993-2007 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]115 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]5112 [/td][td]250 [/td][td]48.22 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]18 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]G Boycott (Eng) [/td][td]1964-1982 [/td][td]107 [/td][td]191 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]8091 [/td][td]246* [/td][td]48.16 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]42 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]HH Gibbs (SA) [/td][td]1998-2008 [/td][td]68 [/td][td]116 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]5242 [/td][td]228 [/td][td]47.22 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]21 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]WM Lawry (Aus) [/td][td]1961-1971 [/td][td]67 [/td][td]123 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]5234 [/td][td]210 [/td][td]47.15 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]AN Cook (Eng) [/td][td]2006-2016 [/td][td]122 [/td][td]218 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]9549 [/td][td]294 [/td][td]46.35 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]46 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]CG Greenidge (WI) [/td][td]1974-1991 [/td][td]107 [/td][td]182 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]7488 [/td][td]226 [/td][td]45.1 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]GA Gooch (Eng) [/td][td]1978-1995 [/td][td]100 [/td][td]184 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]7811 [/td][td]333 [/td][td]43.88 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]41 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]ME Trescothick (Eng) [/td][td]2000-2006 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]142 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]5824 [/td][td]219 [/td][td]43.78 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]MA Taylor (Aus) [/td][td]1989-1999 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]186 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]7525 [/td][td]334* [/td][td]43.49 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]40 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]MS Atapattu (SL) [/td][td]1997-2007 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]136 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]5317 [/td][td]249 [/td][td]43.22 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17 [/td][td]CH Gayle (WI) [/td][td]2000-2014 [/td][td]99 [/td][td]173 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]7028 [/td][td]333 [/td][td]43.11 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18 [/td][td]MJ Slater (Aus) [/td][td]1993-2001 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]5312 [/td][td]219 [/td][td]42.83 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]21 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19 [/td][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]116 [/td][td]201 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]7472 [/td][td]184 [/td][td]42.45 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]39 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20 [/td][td]G Kirsten (SA) [/td][td]1993-2002 [/td][td]84 [/td][td]149 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]5726 [/td][td]275 [/td][td]41.79 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]28 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21 [/td][td]ST Jayasuriya (SL) [/td][td]1994-2007 [/td][td]90 [/td][td]152 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]5932 [/td][td]340 [/td][td]41.48 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22 [/td][td]AJ Strauss (Eng) [/td][td]2004-2012 [/td][td]97 [/td][td]171 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]6741 [/td][td]169 [/td][td]40.85 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23 [/td][td]MA Atherton (Eng) [/td][td]1990-2001 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]197 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]7476 [/td][td]185* [/td][td]39.14 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]45 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24 [/td][td]JG Wright (NZ) [/td][td]1978-1993 [/td][td]80 [/td][td]144 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]5260 [/td][td]185 [/td][td]38.11 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

ODI
[table=width: 700, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Rank [/td][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]NO [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]HS [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]100 [/td][td]50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]HM Amla (SA) [/td][td]2008-2016 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]6415 [/td][td]159 [/td][td]52.58 [/td][td]89.38 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]30 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]SR Tendulkar (India) [/td][td]1994-2012 [/td][td]344 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]15310 [/td][td]200* [/td][td]48.29 [/td][td]88.05 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]75 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]TM Dilshan (SL) [/td][td]2008-2016 [/td][td]176 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]7293 [/td][td]161* [/td][td]46.45 [/td][td]89.29 [/td][td]21 [/td][td]34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]ML Hayden (Aus) [/td][td]1993-2008 [/td][td]148 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]5892 [/td][td]181* [/td][td]44.3 [/td][td]78.7 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]33 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]ME Waugh (Aus) [/td][td]1993-2002 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]5729 [/td][td]173 [/td][td]44.06 [/td][td]76.74 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]32 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]G Kirsten (SA) [/td][td]1993-2003 [/td][td]175 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]6647 [/td][td]188* [/td][td]41.8 [/td][td]72.25 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]45 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]SC Ganguly (India) [/td][td]1996-2007 [/td][td]242 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]9146 [/td][td]183 [/td][td]41.57 [/td][td]73.59 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]58 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]DL Haynes (WI) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]238 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]8648 [/td][td]152* [/td][td]41.37 [/td][td]63.09 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]Saeed Anwar (Pak) [/td][td]1989-2003 [/td][td]220 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]8156 [/td][td]194 [/td][td]39.98 [/td][td]79.93 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]CH Gayle (ICC/WI) [/td][td]2000-2015 [/td][td]248 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]8920 [/td][td]215 [/td][td]39.12 [/td][td]85.94 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]46 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]GC Smith (Afr/SA) [/td][td]2002-2013 [/td][td]196 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]6974 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]38.1 [/td][td]80.94 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]47 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]AC Gilchrist (Aus/ICC) [/td][td]1998-2008 [/td][td]260 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]9200 [/td][td]172 [/td][td]36.5 [/td][td]98.02 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]53 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]V Sehwag (Asia/ICC/India) [/td][td]2001-2013 [/td][td]214 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]7518 [/td][td]219 [/td][td]36.49 [/td][td]104.72 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]35 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]HH Gibbs (SA) [/td][td]1996-2010 [/td][td]183 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]6103 [/td][td]153 [/td][td]35.69 [/td][td]82.86 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]24 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]NJ Astle (NZ) [/td][td]1995-2007 [/td][td]191 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]6176 [/td][td]145* [/td][td]34.89 [/td][td]72.72 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]ST Jayasuriya (Asia/SL) [/td][td]1993-2011 [/td][td]388 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]12740 [/td][td]189 [/td][td]34.61 [/td][td]92.48 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17 [/td][td]WU Tharanga (SL) [/td][td]2005-2014 [/td][td]161 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]5001 [/td][td]174* [/td][td]33.79 [/td][td]73.58 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]25 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
SL_Fan said:
WI bashing aside it’s tough to make a case for him as an ATG bat imo.

Tests vs top six - 6.8k runs at 42.8 with 16 tons in 169 innings
Link

Even if you give him some leeway for opening the batting in SA (minus WI and minnows where he averaged just over 34 in 84 innings btw) it’s still not good reading as far as ATG bats are concerned imo. Yes he did play some famous match/series winning knocks so he should get extra points there no doubt but it has to be said that he was also very fortunate to have played in such a strong team for those knocks to have actually amounted to something.

ODIs excluding minnows - 5.4k runs at under 35 striking at a bit over 79 with 8 tons in 161 innings
Link

Just a single ton in ICC tourneys (excluding minnows) in 35 innings (in CT) and 4 50s (3 WC plus 1 CT). All in all a fairly average LOI record at best with nothing much to show for it.

So taking all that into consideration he ends up just below ATG level for mine alongside guys like Sehwag, KP, Hayden etc.
Click to expand...

When you put it this way, he doesn't make the cut.
 
Smith also ranks high among ATG captains.

Dale Steyn and Morne Morkel wouldn't have had half of their wickets if they didn't play under Smith.
 
Bilal7 said:
When you put it this way, he doesn't make the cut.
Click to expand...

I think he’s fairly overrated actually. Very good bat but hardly ATG. His home Test record against the top teams is well below par when you are talking about ATG bats.

Opening bats in SA post 2000 (excluding WI and co)
Link

Smith - 2.5k runs at 34 with just 4 tons in 78 innings (ton every 19.5 innings on average)

In comparison the overall/aggregate ave (excluding WI and co) for openers post 2000 in SA is 33 (Link - ton every 14 innings on average). So fair to say at best Smith was only barely average at home.

Also WI and co aside he only averaged 45+ against Eng and Pakistan. Didn’t do all that well against the rest overall (Link).

When you are talking about ATG bats those are quite clearly some shoddy numbers. Has done nothing much in LOIs either. As I said earlier he was very fortunate to have played in a quality team because his reputation is mainly built on a few Test match/series winning knocks he has played overseas. Without a strong team I highly doubt that would have been possible.
 
Hobbs, Hutton and Gavasker are the only three ATG opening batsmen. Smith may be an ATG, when you factor in his captaincy but as a batsman, he doesn't make it.

However, he is still the best opening batsman since Gavasker, in my opinion.
 
Smith and de Villiers were clearly inferior to Amla and Kallis from their own team.
 
ABD is clearly the superior cricketer all formats considered.
 
At par with Cook and Hayden..

One of the greats of the game. However, he avgs merely 43 when you exclude the likes of WI and other which is pretty average. So, IMO, he is at same level as Amla and not really a certified ATG.
 
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BouncerGuy
mominsaigol
Are Yashasvi Jaiswal and Rishabh Pant the next hype machines for India?
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mominsaigol
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Hellion
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