Is ISI the most overrated agency in the world?

[KarachiKing]

Often Pakistanis pride on how good ISI is and quote websites (with no credibility) which state ISI to be more resourceful than even CIA and has zero double agents and all that nonsense. Lot of Pakistani definitely feel proud of it.

But my question is whenever has it ever benefitted us? Its record is terrible. Its meant to be for intelligence gathering but never succeeds in it. We get attacked left, right and center by terrorist outfits and it is helpless against it. Even if there is outside involvement (Indian or otherwise, which I dont believe in esp in case of India) it is ISI's job to nip it in the bud.

If anything ISI is responsible for the mess we find outselves in by promoting sectarianism and arming terrorists in the past. Its role is shameful and I for one would be happy if this shady organization is made accountable.

How can your major assets like airports, GHQ Headquarters etc be attacked so freely

 

[Myrmidon]

I love and worship them, have been indoctrinated from a young age to adore these guys. They are the best and most humane secret service in the world, who will never resort to anything sinister to get their business done. They put peoples lives above their own interests and will never meddle with any other countries affairs because they are just so amazing. They are the greatest and most intelligent agency in the world and anybody who says otherwise is a brainwashed paid agent of the west who should be dealt with accordingly by these messiahs of the islamic world

 

[Saeed]

Absolutely and the most shameful thing they weren't able to do is found Bin-Laden and still terrorists bomb civilians whenever they want.

 

[sjahmed23]

Heads should roll, but knowing Pakistan, it will be blamed on India and 'foreign conspiracy' that our government has no control over and India already hates us so so blaming anything on them won't bring any repercussions to our politicians and media personnel.

 

[cricketjoshila]

May be they were busy dealing with Geo.

 

[Buffet]

Overrated?

Along with army they run a parallel government in such a big country. No intelligence agency have that kind of influence in any large country.

 

[Saeed]

Overrated?

Along with army they run a parallel government in such a big country. No intelligence agency have that kind of influence in any large country.

Russia U.S and China are much bigger and don't face problems like Pakistan.

 

[Laparwah]

You can't expect the ISI to stop all attacks with Modi now on one side and war in Afghanistan on the other with Pakistan sandwiched in between. ISI are good but not super human. Every such agency has it's limitations especially if the government does not support it.

 

[KarachiKing]

Heads should roll, but knowing Pakistan, it will be blamed on India and 'foreign conspiracy' that our government has no control over and India already hates us so so blaming anything on them won't bring any repercussions to our politicians and media personnel.

lets assume there is indian involvement. Isnt it ISI's responsibility to unmask that and humiliate them on world stage?

 

[Buffet]

Russia U.S and China are much bigger and don't face problems like Pakistan.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't think any country allows their intelligence to have that kind of control. You have to hand it off to ISI to control such a large country. Now as far as intelligence agency working for welfare of citizens is concerned then they are nowhere near the top few agencies. In fact, any army and intelligence having too much control is never going to work for the best interest of country. They will have their own agenda and means to achieve that.

Pakistan is unique in that way where Army and intelligence agency have more say than the elected government. Problem is elected governments not getting uninterrupted long run. It takes 40-50 years for institutions to mature but Army keeps coming in power every other 10-15 years. In short time frame, it may look good that army comes and overthrows not so efficient elected government for various reasons but over the long term, country suffers.

 

[Chickenkorma]

ISI is greater than Pakistan. Governments come and go but the ISI is always here to peddle it's ideology.

 

[smoothcriminal]

They are a huge reason why any notion of introspection within our society is impossible. They have hijacked the national narrative and claim monopoly over it.

 

[Jang]

agencies job is to protect the country and it's peaple. ISI has completely failed in that sense. so not sure why many pakistanis take pride in it. What have they actually done for pakistan, pakistanis?

 

[Myrmidon]

agencies job is to protect the country and it's peaple. ISI has completely failed in that sense. so not sure why many pakistanis take pride in it. What have they actually done for pakistan, pakistanis?

They have indoctrinated Pakistanis, that is more than enough

 

[amax]

I think you misunderstood me. I don't think any country allows their intelligence to have that kind of control. You have to hand it off to ISI to control such a large country. Now as far as intelligence agency working for welfare of citizens is concerned then they are nowhere near the top few agencies. In fact, any army and intelligence having too much control is never going to work for the best interest of country. They will have their own agenda and means to achieve that.

Pakistan is unique in that way where Army and intelligence agency have more say than the elected government. Problem is elected governments not getting uninterrupted long run. It takes 40-50 years for institutions to mature but Army keeps coming in power every other 10-15 years. In short time frame, it may look good that army comes and overthrows not so efficient elected government for various reasons but over the long term, country suffers.

Actually not that unique/strange when you consider case in detail , Pakistan was a new multiethnic country literally out of nowhere(such cases will always be followed by some issues in beginning); as expected secessionist movements started just after creation, long disputed hostile borders along both sides(Afghanistan durand line prob was even more hostile than Indian border at that time),territorial claims etc. New provinces; that were historic native ethnic lands had no experience of living together as nation state such situation will produce a vacuum that will always give rise to strong nationalistic institutions(as ethnicities in Pakistan had strong martial tradition since British raj so Armed forces it was) against "perceived" threats/for maintaining survival/integrity . Israel is also somewhat similar case(nt completely) with somewhat similar results though on smaller scale. The real issue is "normalization" doesnt happen as quickly as desired when country held its feet and that has got to do with inertia of that setup.

 

[Badsha]

I'm not a fan of the ISI but to call them over-rated, you really don't know what this agency has done.

This agency is what controls Pakistan. It is the only thing in the country which even the likes of U.S have failed to penetrate through. Whether or not the ISI has been beneficial to us, I don't know. But for such an agency to shake the hold the dynamics of the sub-continent in their hands, they really aren't over-rated.

 

[amax]

I love and worship them, have been indoctrinated from a young age to adore these guys. They are the best and most humane secret service in the world, who will never resort to anything sinister to get their business done. They put peoples lives above their own interests and will never meddle with any other countries affairs because they are just so amazing. They are the greatest and most intelligent agency in the world and anybody who says otherwise is a brainwashed paid agent of the west who should be dealt with accordingly by these messiahs of the islamic world

In coursework? surprised because I was never indoctrinated/taught anything about ISI from young age.

 

[Jang]

I'm not a fan of the ISI but to call them over-rated, you really don't know what this agency has done.

This agency is what controls Pakistan. It is the only thing in the country which even the likes of U.S have failed to penetrate through. Whether or not the ISI has been beneficial to us, I don't know. But for such an agency to shake the hold the dynamics of the sub-continent in their hands, they really aren't over-rated.

I dont think it is because ISI that is possible, it is only because Pakistan has nuclear weapons that everybody is afraid.

 

[Badsha]

I dont think it is because ISI that is possible, it is only because Pakistan has nuclear weapons that everybody is afraid.

But who has protected those Nukes?

Don't want to go into detail here really but I cant tell you our "leaders" aren't what is keeping us alive.

 

[Zanjeer]

ISI is good for planting bombs, supporting militant groups , but they fail to detect the same when others do it in Pakistan.

 

[Myrmidon]

In coursework? surprised because I was never indoctrinated/taught anything about ISI from young age.

Media, word of mouth. Everybody back home adores these guys and the army. I mentioned nothing about coursework.

 

[blackanhyellow]

The CIA commits horrendous acts, kidnaps people, tortures, drone attacks in which a large number of civilian casualties occur.

The difference is that they have better PR people to control the media flow, they control the narrative so people always see them as good guys.

The point is, most if not all intelligence agencies are shady, ISI just has a terrible public perception outside of Pakistan.

The other difference is that the CIA only commits crimes against people outside the United States, while ISI operates very close to home.

 

[AZ]

they are and will continue to be the single biggest threat to any chance of normalcy, and indeed the very existence of Pakistan.

 

[Buffet]

Actually not that unique/strange when you consider case in detail , .......

The real issue is "normalization" doesnt happen as quickly as desired when country held its feet and that has got to do with inertia of that setup.

It's true that whenever there is vacuum, you are going to have some strong forces come and fill it. I was personally happy to see that the last government completed their term and then new government came in power via normal election. Based on posts here, it seems that both governments are not rated high but I feel this is a painful process and needs to continue. With continuity, country is likely to have stronger institutions and then country can have more checks and balance. US took a long time. If you look at any democratic country( larger size ones) , they all take time. I think if Army/intelligence in Pakistan would have simply allowed the normal process then Pakistan would have been far ahead in maturity of few institutions. Eventually they will get there. It's too big a country to be controlled by Army/Intelligence in the long term but it will take some time.

I was also very surprised that many posters were unhappy and totally losing hope with democratic process when IK didn't win. I thought it was not bad at all because he had very little presence in previous election and the last one, he got nationwide presence even if it didn't translate to seats in many places. A new party is not going to come in power at national level in any big country overnight but many posters here were expecting the same. He now has power in one province and he can set the tone for the next election by doing a great job there. I don't know too much about the politics in Pakistan and I may be wrong about IK's party not having much presence. Apart from some top level info about the country, my knowledge of politics in Pakistan is mainly from reading few threads in PP.

I wasn't commenting about IK's party being good or bad. Just a normal observation about the process. I feel Pakistan will be in much better shape after 10 years. Due to Soviet war, 2-3 generations have been pulled into destructive thought process and it will take 2-3 generation before it gets wiped out but things should get a lot better in the next 10 years. I feel it has been close to the rock bottom in the last few years.

 

[Saeed]

The CIA commits horrendous acts, kidnaps people, tortures, drone attacks in which a large number of civilian casualties occur.

The difference is that they have better PR people to control the media flow, they control the narrative so people always see them as good guys.

The point is, most if not all intelligence agencies are shady, ISI just has a terrible public perception outside of Pakistan.

The other difference is that the CIA only commits crimes against people outside the United States, while ISI operates very close to home.

I don't understand the need to name CIA. Why does it even matter what they do, shouldn't we focus on our own by being better examples than others instead of make two wrongs right?

 

[Mamoon]

I read an article some months ago where it was ranked number 2 in the world, only behind CIA.

 

[Lords]

You can't expect the ISI to stop all attacks with Modi now on one side and war in Afghanistan on the other with Pakistan sandwiched in between. ISI are good but not super human. Every such agency has it's limitations especially if the government does not support it.

What is your problem with modi. What has he done to Pakistan ever?

Not that he backstabbed pakistan after shaking hands like in kargil.

 

[Lords]

Over rated is a strong word. They were never rated outside pakistan.

Whole world thinks of them as a sellout govt sponsored terrorist agency.

In America they think of it as a rouge agency aiding terrorists which will also work for you for some money. (No exaggeration)

ISI better work under govt for national interest instead of working against its own govt.

 

[Haroon786]

Some people need to look up what 'military-industrial complex', because that's what is runnning the world, not some PR puppets that give speeches.

 

[Indiafan]

You can't expect the ISI to stop all attacks with Modi now on one side and war in Afghanistan on the other with Pakistan sandwiched in between. ISI are good but not super human. Every such agency has it's limitations especially if the government does not support it.

I think this post should go a long way in showing the mentality of some people which is exploited by people who want to create an atmosphere of fear. Taking the name of an elected Prime Minister of a country only because he doesn't personally like him. How clueless can people be about how democracies and elected government officials work. People would think brain washing is something shown in movies but there is enough proof everyday on how people delude themselves

 

[Indiafan]

The CIA commits horrendous acts, kidnaps people, tortures, drone attacks in which a large number of civilian casualties occur.

The difference is that they have better PR people to control the media flow, they control the narrative so people always see them as good guys.

The point is, most if not all intelligence agencies are shady, ISI just has a terrible public perception outside of Pakistan.

The other difference is that the CIA only commits crimes against people outside the United States, while ISI operates very close to home.

Part of this is because CIA is able to prevent anything happening inside their own country. And that is the measure of success of an intelligence agency, no matter how shady they are. The bad rep is not just the PR, it is the success rate of the agency

And IMO, I always thought, a truly successful spy agency will have it's name appearing less and less in the media. In fact. most people in India do not even know that there is an agency called RAW in India. Even I came to know on these forums

 

[battler]

If success of an intelligence agency is to be measured by how successfully it can protect it's own people than RAW is ahead of ISI.
If success is measured on how an intelligence agency has tried to infiltrate another country then ISI is ahead of RAW.

 

[amax]

Part of this is because CIA is able to prevent anything happening inside their own country. And that is the measure of success of an intelligence agency, no matter how shady they are. The bad rep is not just the PR, it is the success rate of the agency

[A general comment not comparing anyone as I think CIA has no comparison in terms of resources at disposal even ISI take some of its share from them ]


first when you will study History from 20th century onward specially world war 2, you will realize that one of the greatest geostrategic advantage of USA is that it is separated from rest of the world and spillover of different conflicts never reached USA.( this safety of US is one of the most most studied/mentioned topics on subject ). Now compare this to some intelligence agency conflict between Pakistan and India every spillover will be like sh!t hitting the fan and will destabilize the other, similarly US approach will be totally different in dealing with Mexico and even small cuba. So comparison with US of any country is futile.

And IMO, I always thought, a truly successful spy agency will have it's name appearing less and less in the media. In fact. most people in India do not even know that there is an agency called RAW in India. Even I came to know on these forums

That again is wrong in many ways, SPY agencies/warfare became famous and part of "urban folklore" during cold war geopolitics CIA-KGB games, US-soviet double agents CIA-ISI coperations etc etc Soviet-Afghan war was sort of climax of all this (where intelligence agency warfare reached new levels;' complex web of proxies under proxies, dozens and dozens of groups and warlords to fight soviet war machine and after tussle between them to hold geostrategically imp Kabul ). ISI played main role in two of the most intelligence intensive wars post WW2 i.e. both Afghan wars and actually that is the reason for its visibility(just like other intelligence agencies involved in cold war),many roles were unwillingly thrusted upon Pakistan because of imp geostrategic location, raw hasnt been involved in such large/global intelligence warfare. Talking about common man, common man in Pakistan also know nothing about ISI other than it is some more powerful/hidden police.

 

[youboy]

Pakistan Intelligence agency had issued 5 alerts since November about this kind of attack to the Sindh government.

In March Ministry of Interior issued official alert about the airport in which it was also informed about the gate as a security risk from where the terrorist entered.

Why now measures taken by the civilian government? Whose failure is this? Who will do investigation about it? Was there an insider aiding the terrorist to enter so easily?

 

[Bewal Express]

A bunch of useless self serving morons. The irony is that most of the guys attacking us have been created by the very people whose job is to protect the public. I hazard a guess that very much like the Police in Pakistan, if the ISI was scrapped we would be no worse off.

 

[Alchemy]

I love and worship them, have been indoctrinated from a young age to adore these guys. They are the best and most humane secret service in the world, who will never resort to anything sinister to get their business done. They put peoples lives above their own interests and will never meddle with any other countries affairs because they are just so amazing. They are the greatest and most intelligent agency in the world and anybody who says otherwise is a brainwashed paid agent of the west who should be dealt with accordingly by these messiahs of the islamic world

Says the guy with the Afghani flag. The country who is the biggest enemy of Pakistan.

 

[Alchemy]

ISI has sadly been a huge failure apparently. I dont know if it really is the failure of ISI or if its their own proxy game. You never know.

 

[Alchemy]

Over rated is a strong word. They were never rated outside pakistan.

Whole world thinks of them as a sellout govt sponsored terrorist agency.

In America they think of it as a rouge agency aiding terrorists which will also work for you for some money. (No exaggeration)

ISI better work under govt for national interest instead of working against its own govt.

LMAO over not being rated outside Pakistan? )

Trust me brother, it is the indian elite army wings and their agencies which no one really pays attention to. And i am not BS-ing it up like you just did in your post.

 

[Alchemy]

If success of an intelligence agency is to be measured by how successfully it can protect it's own people than RAW is ahead of ISI.
If success is measured on how an intelligence agency has tried to infiltrate another country then ISI is ahead of RAW.

The job to protect its own people is of FIA in Pakistan. The same way FBI in USA. ISI has a secondary role. In the same way, RAW has a secondary role in protecting its own people. ISI and RAW cant be taken in the same sentence. RAW is no match to the capability of ISI which works with top organizations like CIA.

 

[Bewal Express]

ISI are self serving-we are told that it's foreigners that are behind the threat but where is the evidence if other countries are destabilising the country. Isn't it the job of the ISI to find the evidence to humiliate the plotters or is it a cover for losing control over crackpots they created.

 

[pakistanalltheway]

They maybe be over rated but how exactly do you compare secret agencies ? .

 

[Laparwah]

What is your problem with modi. What has he done to Pakistan ever?

Not that he backstabbed pakistan after shaking hands like in kargil.

Problem is his many anti-Pakistani statements over the past few months. Kargil happened, it's not an international border so deal with it. Like it or not for us Pakistanis IOK is disputed territory under the UN resolution.

 

[Laparwah]

I think this post should go a long way in showing the mentality of some people which is exploited by people who want to create an atmosphere of fear. Taking the name of an elected Prime Minister of a country only because he doesn't personally like him. How clueless can people be about how democracies and elected government officials work. People would think brain washing is something shown in movies but there is enough proof everyday on how people delude themselves

What you on about! Your Modi is well known to be a mass murderer even by your own people so get your head out of the clouds and accept the facts! You have no idea what you are talking about! The only exploited one's are you people unable to deal with facts on the ground, your media is a complete joke making you believe in silly fantasises. How do you know I have a personal problem with Modi?? You are just a typical Bharati speaking without the benefit's of intellect. If you people want to democratically elect a murderer then that's your choice but just don't tell us how great he is! Regarding the 26/11 attacks if Pak was responsible on the basis of the terrorists have drinks from here then you are equally responsible for the Karachi fiasco! Many times Indian weapons have been found from terrorists attacking Pakistanis, don't tell me this is something random. It's no coincidence that the attack on Karachi airport occurred two weeks after Modi came in to power.

 

[Laparwah]

Indian's dislike Hafiz Saeed because they think he is responsible for 26/11. We are expected to love Modi who according to many was responsible for the Gujarat massacre even though it has nothing to do with us. HS has never threatened Bharat but spoken of IOK where as Modi has verbally attacked Pakistan so many times, what a joke!!

 

[Bewal Express]

They maybe be over rated but how exactly do you compare secret agencies ? .

The job of a good agency is to protect the country,not create nut cases that actually threaten the country.

 

[Firebreaker]

Geo vs Mubashar Lucman and co. is bigger rivalry than Pakistan-India

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

After more than 7 e-backed journalists had even unleashed phone call records publicly the Dawn Leaks Report is all set to give clean chit to Princess of Pakistan.


One of the E-journos had even presented all the calls charts with numbers of all the sims and apps communications.


These people play dual games. At one end they expose people on media through their stooges while where it really matters they give clean chits.


Now all the institutions and their heads who are in JIT of Panama Scandal are under Gov plus the heads are close friends and ghar k aadmi of Sharif family. Loyal to the King PM and Sharif dynasty.

MI is also under Gov. The only hope was ISI who have got all the evidence of Money laundering in Hudaibia Paper Mills. Files are with ISI only.


Princess is going to get cleared in DAWN leaks with another scapegoat being made in form of Tariq Fatmi and may be Fawad Hasan Fawad aswell.

In such a case it's evident that Panama Case will be history soon because of spineless biased JIT and its expected clean chit to Sharif dynasty.


The only way out is PPP, PTI & JI going in review petition saying we don’t trust JIT. But PPP won't.


Won't blame SC. SC is not responsible for Agencies, NAB & FIA tilt+inefficiency+lack of merit&justice. They couldn't have bypassed national institutes to give the probe to foreign investigative institution/organisation.

[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

 

[DW44]

After more than 7 e-backed journalists had even unleashed phone call records publicly the Dawn Leaks Report is all set to give clean chit to Princess of Pakistan.


One of the E-journos had even presented all the calls charts with numbers of all the sims and apps communications.


These people play dual games. At one end they expose people on media through their stooges while where it really matters they give clean chits.


Now all the institutions and their heads who are in JIT of Panama Scandal are under Gov plus the heads are close friends and ghar k aadmi of Sharif family. Loyal to the King PM and Sharif dynasty.

MI is also under Gov. The only hope was ISI who have got all the evidence of Money laundering in Hudaibia Paper Mills. Files are with ISI only.


Princess is going to get cleared in DAWN leaks with another scapegoat being made in form of Tariq Fatmi and may be Fawad Hasan Fawad aswell.

In such a case it's evident that Panama Case will be history soon because of spineless biased JIT and its expected clean chit to Sharif dynasty.


The only way out is PPP, PTI & JI going in review petition saying we don’t trust JIT. But PPP won't.


Won't blame SC. SC is not responsible for Agencies, NAB & FIA tilt+inefficiency+lack of merit&justice. They couldn't have bypassed national institutes to give the probe to foreign investigative institution/organisation.

[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

MI is not under government control by any means and the current DG is not even a fan. It's irrelevant though because ultimately the ball is in ISI's court who, as you pointed out, are in possession of irrefutable evidence of corruption against the Sharifs, along with the power to basically overrule any concerns from any of the other parties involved in the JIT so the outcome of the JIT ultimately comes down to whether or not ISI wants the Sharifs to continue or be removed. Personally, I'll bet good money on them saving the Nooras(would have done the same if PPP or PTI were in N-League's place) because a Noora government allows them to go about business as usual which is calling all the shots while the puppet democratic government serves as a convenient fall guy for any failures and doesn't have any real power to make any significant decisions except for cutting ribbons and stealing money by the billions using their extremely limited authority.

As for Dawn leaks, and this is strictly my personal opinion, it's Chaudhary Nisar, not Maryam, who is being saved. I am convinced it was Nisar who leaked the news though, given how shrouded in secrecy anything involving the government and army's behind the scenes functioning is, I could be wrong. Just a gut instinct that it was Nisar. That said, it speaks volumes to how much control these people have over the country when they can force the government to throw it's own people under the bus for something that the government should have done openly anyway. Again, I'm convinced that the issue raised in Dawn leaks(conflict between army and gov over army protecting certain terrorists from gov action) is genuine(the terrorist org in question is Jaish) and unlike the Maryam or Nisar conundrum, this is not conjecture.

 

[gkb101277867]

I read an article some months ago where it was ranked number 2 in the world, only behind CIA.

Which idiot wrote that?

 

[gkb101277867]

LMAO over not being rated outside Pakistan? )

Trust me brother, it is the indian elite army wings and their agencies which no one really pays attention to. And i am not BS-ing it up like you just did in your post.

Trust me ISI are a joke outside of Pakistan