ManFan
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It’s better if you have constructive criticism to offer rather than emptily moaning whenever your team wins.
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Contact the PP Team
Is Pakistan the greatest cricket nation ever?
- Thread starter Bhaijaan
- Start date
It’s better if you have constructive criticism to offer rather than emptily moaning whenever your team wins.
bujhee kom
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OP is Indian. This is a troll thread designed to get people to insult Pk. Much like the Bd is a power thread. Sad.
Pakistan is surely the most interesting cricket team in history. Probably the most glamorous, controversial and also mercurial. The unpredictability associated them has never changed over the years and will probably remain so for the foreseeable future due to the incredible bowling talent despite the lack of reliable infra. That just adds to the charisma and the appeal of the dangerous romantic Anti Hero in world cricket.
Bilal7
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The only team that can be called better is Australia. However, like the OP stated (in a trollish way), they have not had to deal with the off-field issues that Pakistan has. Until recently that is. We can see how well they've handled it from their current losing streak.
Pakistan has the third best W/L ratio in both tests and ODIs and probably the best in IT20s. Both the ODI World Cup and the World T20 have been won by Pakistan. They've produced great batsmen, great fast bowlers and great spinners. The doosra, reverse-swing and a plethora of batting strokes were invented by Pakistani players. Neutral umpires, D/N matches and the pink ball were all initially Pakistani experiments. Some of the best umpires in the world have come from Pakistan, along with world-renowned coaches and popular commentators.
The wrist-slitters will balk at this but yes, Pakistan is arguably the greatest cricket nation of all-time.
Pakistan has the third best W/L ratio in both tests and ODIs and probably the best in IT20s. Both the ODI World Cup and the World T20 have been won by Pakistan. They've produced great batsmen, great fast bowlers and great spinners. The doosra, reverse-swing and a plethora of batting strokes were invented by Pakistani players. Neutral umpires, D/N matches and the pink ball were all initially Pakistani experiments. Some of the best umpires in the world have come from Pakistan, along with world-renowned coaches and popular commentators.
The wrist-slitters will balk at this but yes, Pakistan is arguably the greatest cricket nation of all-time.
Muhammad Saad
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Just to correct the op regarding Rashid khan, he did born in pakistan but to a mega rich family and not in a refugee camp.
Bhaijaan
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Those days will back bro. Stay hopeful.
I remember growing up watching Wasim, Anwar, Inzy, Akhtar, Waqar. What a sight. What a star studded, mature team full of swagger!
Your Bhaijaan truly feels old remembering those days also slightly emotional we had Tendulkar who was huge. No one has been that big since.
Bhaijaan
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What makes you say your Bhaijaan is trolling Billu. Tell me.
Procter sobers
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Whatever, India controlling the game now..
Most influential.
Most influential.
Ab Fan
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Pakistan again proving today that there is no team who has the ability or have mastered the art of making a comeback from the jaws of defeat and still end up winning the series/tournament. Today, they look well on a right way to win the series after getting humiliated in the first ODI against NZ. They have done this again and again and emerged victorious in the end.
This is what seperates boys from the men and it is also one of the big reason which adds up to the fact why Pakistan has a strong claim to be the greatest cricket nation ever. My prediction of 2-1 Pak win as soon as Nz won the first ODI looks to be completely on spot.
This is what seperates boys from the men and it is also one of the big reason which adds up to the fact why Pakistan has a strong claim to be the greatest cricket nation ever. My prediction of 2-1 Pak win as soon as Nz won the first ODI looks to be completely on spot.
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Ab Fan
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Pakistan will certainly win it. It is not about a match but the quality which they possess and the ability of making a comeback and getting victorious from the jaws of defeat.
BreadPakoda
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Being consistently top performer (Australia, SA, India (in the last decade or so)) is better than being ordinary and then making comebacks only to become ordinary again.
Pakistan has had a good cricketing past but being 15/6 in 16 overs against the same NZ and losing series 5-0 and then winning 2-1 in return at home.....how is it exceptional?
Ab Fan
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I was referring to that particular quality of making comeback. You have to understand all the things that Pak went through in the last 10-12 years. Most teams would have transformed into minnows by now but Pakistan are still several levels ahead of minnow level.
And most importantly this is a young team. Let a couple of their players get experience and they will further transform themselves into a top 4-5 team, and this ability to always turn things is what makes them a great cricketing nation.
BreadPakoda
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What has Pakistan gone through in the last 10-12 years apart from having to play home games in the UAE?
BreadPakoda
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Exactly!
CricFan2012
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Pakistan is the greatest cricket nation to watch play, but Australia has been better because they've been more dominant and India has a much better cricketing structure and is improving at a much better rate compared to us.
bujhee kom
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This was an obvious troll thread. Pk have been good. Aus are CLEARLY the greatest cricketing nation. WI next.
People are talking so much about Pakistan's hardships but Sri Lanka has suffered much more. Yet, with a population not even half the size of England, they've achieved so much. We talk so much about Third World countries like Pakistan achieving so much despite few resources and how the large population doesn't matter because there's no money, but Sri Lanka have neither the population nor money/resources, and had to put up with a civil war for 25 years. It's difficult to see Pakistan ever become a minnow, but being only a tiny nation in every sense, SL could have easily been a minnow throughout their entire duration in cricket and yet they managed to create two generations of world-class cricketers. That for me is more impressive than anything Pakistan has achieved.
Sadozai
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ditto
What's actually sad is that people are agreeing with him.
Mamoon
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India has firmly established itself as the second greatest cricket nation now. Only Australia are ahead, but it will be impossible to catch them even if India wins in South Africa.
The only way India can challenge Australia is by winning 3 World Cups on the trot and maintaining their number one Test ranking for 7-8 years, which is unrealistic.
(1) Australia
(2) India
(3) West Indies
(4) South Africa
(5) England
(6) Pakistan
(7) Sri Lanka
(8) New Zealand
(9) Bangladesh
(10) Zimbabwe
(11) Ireland
(12) Afghanistan
The only way India can challenge Australia is by winning 3 World Cups on the trot and maintaining their number one Test ranking for 7-8 years, which is unrealistic.
(1) Australia
(2) India
(3) West Indies
(4) South Africa
(5) England
(6) Pakistan
(7) Sri Lanka
(8) New Zealand
(9) Bangladesh
(10) Zimbabwe
(11) Ireland
(12) Afghanistan
Bhaijaan
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Statistics aside, Pakistan is arguably the greatest cricket nation.
Rishta Aunty
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Solid list, except I would put Pakistan 4th. We have three world titles (WC, WT20, CT) while England have one (WT20) and South Africa have none at all (big blot on their record). Performance in big tournaments does matter in evaluating where teams stand.
Mamoon
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I have given more weight to Test cricket. Pakistan would rank higher in Limited Overs list because of trophies.
RyanRyan10
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Rishta Aunty
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If it's a test-focussed list, then India will not be number 2. They have a pretty poor W/L record historically despite some series victories in the 1970's. We've been a better test nation than they have, and while the last 2 decades has equalized this I'd put us on par at best. South Africa have a proper claim to being #2 considering their record in Tests, and England despite their 90's minnow years have been a fantastic test side as well.
Looking at it cross-formats, we're a comfortable number 4 in my eyes not too far from the Windies at 3.
big_gamer007
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I think Pakistan is definitely above England and possibly SA too.. SA missed some golden years and haven't won WC so Pakistan edges them out slightly.
Also Pakistan have given world cricket two very important things in doosra and reverse swing.. It might be individual players who invented them however they were Pakistanis so that gives extra points to Pakistan for their contribution to cricket
Rishta Aunty
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Ahh the ICC knockout. I forgot as they changed the name later. Still, SA are massive underachievers on the global tournament stage.
Slim
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Slim
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Pakistan has one of the best track records in England, NZ. It also has better test record against their arch rivals. Even if we go by your logic, Windies rank higher than India. It should be Australia, WI, India, Pakistan and then the rest.
LOL @ SA and England being higher than Pakistan without any WC.
The SA test side with Smith, AB, Kallis, Amla, Steyn, and Morkel was better than any Pakistani team in history.
Ab Fan
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Club level tournaments can be left alone.
Ab Fan
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Yes, if we take a look into context, then, in reality, it is Pakistan who has time and time again proved that they are the greatest cricket nation ever.
Not Australia, not Windies, not India and not even Saffers.
Mamoon
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It’s a 60-40 list. 60 Tests and 40 Limited Overs.
The reason why I have put India at #2 is because over the last two decades, they have been phenomenal. Not only have they won trophies, they have also been consistently ranked in the top 3 in all formats. They were not that great in Tests before the 2000s but still did well because of the quartet. In ODIs, they were a very good side in the 80s.
I have ranked Pakistan below England because although they haven't won an ODI trophy yet, they have achieved some great highs in Test cricket.
Beating Australia in 2005 and winning in Australia, India and South Africa in one decade is a monumental effort. Pakistan have won two trophies in this decade and had a very brief stint at the top of the Test rankings in 2016, but our rankings have been consistently poor for a very long time now.
As far as South Africa are concerned, I think they are one World Cup trophy away from displacing West Indies. Purely as a Test nation, they are only behind Australia and West Indies.
Nikhil_cric
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If you consider all formats of international cricket, the greatest cricketing nations so far are
1. Australia( need only one World T20 and they are untouchable)
2. India
3. Windies
4. PAK
5. England
6. RSA
7. Lanka
8.NZ
1. Australia( need only one World T20 and they are untouchable)
2. India
3. Windies
4. PAK
5. England
6. RSA
7. Lanka
8.NZ
Slim
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First of all, i talked about WC victory.
and secondly, no, its not. Steyn and Morkel are nothing in front of Wasim & Waqar. Kallis, Amla are not above Inzamam, Moyo and YK. Rubbish comparison.
But yes, considering Steyn and Morkel, i would say no Indian team was better than this team in their entire history. Its only now that India has managed to find a proper test bowler after Zaheer in Bumrah ( still small sample size). Otherwise, your team has always been reliant on batsmen and spinners. A recipe for disaster in non-Asian countries.
Rishta Aunty
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Well I'd put some of the belief in India's status down to recency bias. Same for England for that matter. They were true minnows in the 90's in Tests, and poor in ODI's till their transformation three years ago.
Even at 60-40, I'd say that England and SA's poor world-tournament records stand against them. But personal preference obviously comes into play here.
Mamoon
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[MENTION=146948]Slim[/MENTION]
Winning trophies is not everything. West Indies have won two World T20s in the last 6 years but they are hardly considered a top team.
In ODIs, on a series-by-series basis, Pakistan have been too rubbish for too long now. We haven’t been ranked in the top 2 since 2006, and have lost the vast majority of our series against the top teams.
England have been at a different level in the second half of this decade, and their achievements in Test cricket in this decade have been far greater than ours.
South Africa don’t have ODI trophies barring 1998, but they have been consistently ranked in the top 3 in Tests and ODIs for a long time now.
West Indies have been rubbish since 1997. 21 years of mediocrity is too much in spite of their past glory.
Pakistan have been historically better than Tests but not by a massive margin. In the last two decades, India has completely left us in its dust and there is hardly any competition now.
By the way, good to see you back after the reality check in the Asia Cup.
Winning trophies is not everything. West Indies have won two World T20s in the last 6 years but they are hardly considered a top team.
In ODIs, on a series-by-series basis, Pakistan have been too rubbish for too long now. We haven’t been ranked in the top 2 since 2006, and have lost the vast majority of our series against the top teams.
England have been at a different level in the second half of this decade, and their achievements in Test cricket in this decade have been far greater than ours.
South Africa don’t have ODI trophies barring 1998, but they have been consistently ranked in the top 3 in Tests and ODIs for a long time now.
West Indies have been rubbish since 1997. 21 years of mediocrity is too much in spite of their past glory.
Pakistan have been historically better than Tests but not by a massive margin. In the last two decades, India has completely left us in its dust and there is hardly any competition now.
By the way, good to see you back after the reality check in the Asia Cup.
I'm talking about a team that played together. How many matches did YK play with Wasim at their prime?
Kallis, Amla, and AB are certainly better than Inzy, Moyo and YK. And Steyn is a better bowler than Wasim or Waqar.
Slim
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No one is taking WT20 into account in this discussion. I was talking about World cups. Which if i remember correctly were put above by you and indian fans in terms of value when it came to discussing India's abysmal ODI and Test record against Pakistan. Now that its India winning in tests, you have put more value on it to justify your rankings in terms of how "great" the teams are.
Double standards and hypocrisy are clear.
What are England's achievements in test cricket? Have they beaten us in UAE? When was the last time they won a series against us? 2010? And after that we have continuously handed their behinds to them in England and outside England. Its 8 years of them constantly either drawing or losing against Pakistan.
When you discuss greatness, you dont shove recency bias into the discussion. When you discuss greatness, you value each and everything equally. Your logic and reasoning shows a clear flaw of recency bias.
Slim
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Inzi, moyo and yk are nobodies in front of Kallis. Amla was not a walking wicket in multiple countries like moyo.
TM Riddle
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Kallis not above Inzamam? Yeah right.
And Steyn is a certified ATG in tests and comfortably better than both Ws.
Slim
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All being said, if we all are blind robots and only read stats. This victory against Australia is great. Otherwise, deep down we all know it would not have been possible without the sand paper gate. Before calling team's GOAT and what not, chest beaters need to stay grounded.
Steyn averages 22.71 with a SR of 42.1 in a batting dominated era. Wasim averages 23.62 with a SR of 54.6.
Slim
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Just because you say it, doesnt makes it true. Why dont you start backing your claims with numbers? Next thing you will tell me is that Sachin is better than Don Bradman and Kohli.
Slim
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What is Steyn's average in Asian and Non-Asian conditions against Wasim's. Lets normalize the numbers. We are not fools here.
Ab Fan
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[MENTION=146948]Slim[/MENTION] bhai, SA have produced Steyn, Donald and Pollock, I. E. as much ATG bowlers as Pak have produced. However, Pakistan dont have a batsmen of the callibre of Jacques Kallis in tests and AB de Villiers in ODIs.
SA actually are still producing the likes of Rabada and Philander while Pakistan has none of Rabada's equivalence.
SA actually are still producing the likes of Rabada and Philander while Pakistan has none of Rabada's equivalence.
Mamoon
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Pakistan has been England’s bogey team. I don’t think it matters to them when they have beaten India, Australia and South Africa home and away in this decade.
If you can beat elite nations, losing to mediocre teams hardly matter. If Pakistan beats India, Australia, England and South Africa home and away, do you think the fans would really care if they lose to New Zealand or Sri Lanka?
England have spent considerable time at #1 and are ranked #2 now. Plus they have won some massive series in this decade.
What are Pakistan’s achievements? Being #1 for a week and not losing to England?
Instead of making bets that forces you into retirement, it is time for you to accept the true worth of Pakistan cricket.
We are a deeply mediocre cricket nation and our fans can do nothing but run their mouths against superior teams. We can only dream of producing the caliber of cricketers that the top teams are producing these days.
We were once good, but we never truly capitalized on it. We never won a series in Australia and South Africa, we have won only one World Cup and got embarrassed every time we faced India in a World Cup in spite of having a better team.
Not to forget, we have not produced a single elite ATG batsman and not a single genuine wicket-keeper batsman.
Pakistan have been rubbish two decades and now and did not do enough during its heydays to be ranked among the leading nations. It is time for you to make peace with the reality and overcome your delusions.
What is Steyn's average in Asian and Non-Asian conditions against Wasim's. Lets normalize the numbers. We are not fools here.
Steyn:
stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/47492.html?class=1;continent=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling
Wasim:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling
Add in the fact Steyn bowled in an era of flat wickets, and he is easily ahead.
Slim
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Pakistan has MOYO and YK who both average above 50 and the former holds a record for highest centuries in a year.
Pakistan is producing the likes of Amir, Hassan Ali, Shaheen Shah Afridi who have won them silverware. Even in our worst we are still producing the likes of Shaheen and Babar.
Considering how our neighbor just managed to have a proper test bowler in Bumrah after decades. It doesnt matter much.
TM Riddle
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Just because you say it, doesnt makes it true. Why dont you start backing your claims with numbers? Next thing you will tell me is that Sachin is better than Don Bradman and Kohli.
Since we are talking of stats here and I would put aside Steyn's since a fellow poster have already posted them, how about you do the honors of proving how stat wise Inzamam and moyo (lol) or heck even YK were better than Kallis.
Go ahead Slim.Surprise me.
jeeteshssaxena
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Statistics aside, Bangladesh is arguably the greatest cricketing nation.
Slim
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Uh, your links show that Wasim averages less than Steyn in Asia...
What are you on about with Steyn being better than Wasim then LOL? Now do i need to show you how to read numbers now?
TM Riddle
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Likes of Mohammad Yusuf/Inzamam being better than Jacques Kallis has to be the most ridiculous thing I have read in my time on this forum.
Slim
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The said poster shot himself in the foot as the stats clearly show that Steyn is not better than Wasim.
I am not interested in convincing you either.
TM Riddle
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Stop shifting goalposts now and prove how the aforementioned batsmen were better than Kallis both in terms of stats and impact wise.
Go ahead. I'm all eyes.
TM Riddle
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Oh and it's interesting how you are clinging on to stats in Asia now to save Wasim's reputation when in the post #56 this is what you said: "All being said, if we all are blind robots and only read stats"
Slim
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What is bogey team? I didnt know we had to take account of this specific classification when it comes to ranking teams. Hell, if its a classification then i request you omit Pakistan's record against Australia in Australia as they are our bogey team. Wait, even then we are better than England because we at least manage to beat Australia at our home!
If cherry picking and personal preference in deciding rankings was a thing, your justifications would be a good example of that.
What are Pakistan's achievements? Winning ICC tournaments, having a solid record in all countries in all formats except Australia & SA (to a lower extent), being the number one t20I team.
I own up to my words, there is no shame in admitting defeat unlike people who change their opinion and standards when it comes to their favorites.
Pakistan has produced ATGs in MOYO and YK in the past decade in batting. I could argue YK's case all day with you if you want.
Which elite fast bowler has india produced which in your opinion is the second best team in the history of cricket?
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Sidilicious
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C'mon. How is India at 2?
India has only euqalled what WI had achieved in LOIs (with a better W/L), and has just overtaken their W/L ratio in tests. What they did in the 80s still holds considerable clout.
Also, due to India's W/L ratio in test cricket, I will place India below England and Pakistan in Tests. If India have a couple of good years and remain at #1, then India can over take WI, Pakistan and England.
The Test Rankings (a mixture of W/L ratio and being #1. A few additional points for away record as well. Poor record at home also means losing points ). Also only the modern era - 1950 onwards - when the current major teams joined
1. Aus
2. SA
3. Pakistan
4. England
5. India
6. WI
7. NZ
8. SL
The LOI Rankings taking into account mainly WC, followed by W/L ratio and other ICC trophies. This includes ODI and T20 rankings (though T20 consideration is insignificant compared to ODI)
1. Australia
2. India
3. WI
4. Pakistan
5. SL
6. SA
7. Eng
8. NZ
A mixture of those rankings would (with a higher consideration to test cricket, approx 65:35)
1. Australia
2. Pakistan
3. England
4. India
5. SA
6. WI
7. NZ
8. SL
The competition is very tight between Pakistan, England and India. And if India continue to keep the top rank for a couple of years, the I would put India at 2. Not yet, though.
RyanRyan10
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SA spent a total of 54 months as no.1 test team in the world
Pakistan were ranked no.1 just for 4 months
Kallis is at least 2 times better than any Pakistani batsman in history. Fact.
Slim
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If we give higher consideration to ODIs and WC wins, then India would easily be the second best. These are the rankings i feel comfortable with and show no evidence of recency bias.
Slim
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So, a guy who averages 55 against someone who averages 52 is at least two times better. Welp, i didnt know your maths was this bad.
What is bogey team? I didnt know we had to take account of this specific classification when it comes to ranking teams. Hell, if its a classification then i request you omit Pakistan's record against Australia in Australia as they are our bogey team. Wait, even then we are better than England because we at least manage to beat Australia at our home!
If cherry picking and personal preference in deciding rankings was a thing, your justifications would be a good example of that.
What are Pakistan's achievements? Winning ICC tournaments, having a solid record in all countries in all formats except Australia & SA (to a lower extent), being the number one t20I team.
I own up to my words, there is no shame in admitting defeat unlike people who change their opinion and standards when it comes to their favorites.
Pakistan has produced ATGs in MOYO and YK in the past decade in batting. I could argue YK's case all day with you if you want.
Which elite fast bowler has india produced which in your opinion is the second best team in the history of cricket?
Inzi , moyo and yk are ATGs?
)first and important thing in south africa and aus is being aggressive will win you matches.
Or you have to have sound defending skills to grind opposition out.
1st one is easier for upcoming players in India - due to mindsets, IPL etc. India has plenty of players for this.
2nd one comes with practice - domestic system + coaching - this is covered as India finds more players like mayank going forward.
So, yes it is possible for India to find the mix sooner than later.
One should always be hopeful and try their best out.
Or you have to have sound defending skills to grind opposition out.
1st one is easier for upcoming players in India - due to mindsets, IPL etc. India has plenty of players for this.
2nd one comes with practice - domestic system + coaching - this is covered as India finds more players like mayank going forward.
So, yes it is possible for India to find the mix sooner than later.
One should always be hopeful and try their best out.
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I didn't know that your comprehension skills are this bad. Sorry.
Slim
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Inzi , moyo and yk are ATGs?
You are bad at maths and you cannot read as well..
Moyo and YK are ATGs. I never mentioned Inzimam.
So you're telling me that an Asian pacer does better in Asia? Wow, what a surprise!
The point is that Steyn has exceptional stats in Asia (similar to Wasim), and better stats overall. All this despite playing in a batsmen dominated era. So there is nothing to suggest that Steyn isn't in fact a better bowler than Wasim.
Sidilicious
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Just to add the competition between Pakistan, England, India, WI and SA is very close. If SA, Pak or Eng win the WC in 2019, they become #2. If WI or Pak get their form back for a couple of years or win the WC, they become #2. If India keeps doing well at home, they become #2. All five teams are very closely bunched.
Slim
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Irony is lost at you.
amax
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Dont forget South Africa started playing cricket way before both Pakistan and India .They are one of old cricket playing nations along with Australia and England. They are definitely on par with India and West Indies.
Pakistan is mostly individual brilliance i am afraid to say that.
Slim
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So moyo and yk are ATGs?
Come back when you can structure a sentence and an argument like a grown up.
I'm not interested in debating with you. Have fun living in the alternative universe where people like moyo and yk are ATGs.
Yousuf averages 29 against Australia, 29 against SA, 29 against SL, and 34 in India. How is he an ATG?
YK didn't do enough overseas (regardless of his averages there) and wasn't good enough against pace to be an ATG. He's in a tier below with Amla, Clarke, VVS, etc.
Anyway, too much discussion about a list Mamoon posted. Let's get back to the topic.
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