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Is the West's LGBT Campaign in the Middle East another example of Cultural Imperialism at Work?

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shaykh

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I'm like a lot of people sick and tired of hearing about LGBT stuff during this World Cup...

The rhetoric has been self centred...'I can't go', 'I have to stay in the closet', 'I can't express myself'...I,I,I,I,I...it has little to do with Qatari's and all to do with English people demanding they be able to act as they want abroad...

So as mentioned prior much of the rhetoric during this World Cup has been about LGBT rights but with little actual focus on Qatari's themselves...

One very interesting read is Joseph Massad...a contemporary of Edward Said who wrote 'Desiring Arabs' which posits some very interesting ideas...

The idea that sexuality isn't viewed in a universal fashion. Hetero-homo binaries are a Western creation which are now being imposed on the Middle East. The concept of orientation never existed there...

So whilst say men would have sex with other men, there was no orientation or identity attached. It is an act rather than forming identity.

He produces accounts from Western academics and journalists who find this lack of sexual identity confusing and thus in need of remedy...The idea that sexual behaviour can exist without a defined orientation made no sense within a Western worldview.

And while the actions themselves are prohibited in a religious sense for the most part historically behaviour hasn't been clamped down in the Middle East. The huge number of travelogues by Gay Western sex tourists helps illustrate that.

However where the situation has changed is the sociopolitical identification of these practices with the Western identity of gayness and the publicness that these gay-identified men seek. This is what has led to a backlash.

'By inciting discourse about homosexuals where none existed before, they are in fact heterosexualising a world that is being forced to be fixed by a Western binary'

By forcing the concept of heterosexuality you also then get homosexuality as an imposed category. This ironically has led to a reactionary homophobia that didn't exist before, because homosexuality as an identity didn't exist. States and groups also now adopt these categories where they identify, categorise and repress homosexuals as a response to these impositions.

As this imposition of a sexual category becomes viewed as Western and an attack on the existing culture.

And this can be seen with the pile on during this World Cup. The attempt by nations to force Qatar to view everything as Western Europeans do as part of their 'civilising' mission.

And herein lies a concluding question? Does this benefit the people it intends to save?

Much is made of those who do want to affirm their orientation, to be visible. But what of those who don't. What of those who engage in same sex relations who don't want to organise their identity based on the homo-hetero binary?
Is this another form of cultural imperialism or is the Western conception of sexuality universal?

At the very least it's worth hearing an Arab viewpoint on LGBT issues because we certainly haven't had any of that during this World Cup.
 
Indeed. I think it is generally believed in the ME and I guess the subcontinent too that the individual who is the top or the 'male' in what in the West would be deemed a homosexual coupling is not thought of as being a homosexual. That only the bottom, the individual comparable to the female is gay.
 
The dominant culture has always tried to impose itself on the weaker one, we have seen this throughout the history.

This is why after the 300 years of interaction and exchange between the British and the Indian subcontinent, the latter is a lot more influenced by the British culture than the former.

We started speaking English, wearing western clothes, watching western film, tv etc., adopting western education & laws etc., and all the British took from us (culturally) was food, spices etc.

The West have done the same in the ME, and they have been largely successful but the rich Gulf states are too rich and independent for them.
 
Abel Reames said:
Indeed. I think it is generally believed in the ME and I guess the subcontinent too that the individual who is the top or the 'male' in what in the West would be deemed a homosexual coupling is not thought of as being a homosexual. That only the bottom, the individual comparable to the female is gay.
Click to expand...

Yeah I imagine a lot of the world have similar distinctions considering the concept of heterosexuality and homosexuality was created by Victorian psychiatrists...the irony being Victorian society used to attack the Arab world for it's licentiousness...

But it's behaviour...not identity...

In Arabic the words for orientation, hetero, homo etc are very recent innovations...

Is that the same for Urdu?...

Arabic has words for someone passive (ma'bun) and words for effeminate (khanith)

The idea of ma'bun is generally derogatory as the man replicates the traditional role of the woman...
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
Moreover it's being done to dwarf the very real issue of racism
Click to expand...

That was predictable...migrant workers was always going to be addendum, a footnote...

What was also predictable is even the LGBT thing would be nothing about Qatari's...

All the performative outrage is self centred...
 
There is no question about it. This is attempted cultural imperialism and even racism.

Apart from a handful of western countries, very few countries make a fuss about LGBTQ issue. It is a non-issue in vast majority of the countries.
 
Last edited:
Absolutely. But it's being drowned out by the football and the fact the rest of the world have not really joined in. Frankly it's been a miserable failure. I agree with what Massad said.
 
I posted in the preview thread a couple of days before the opening game that (almost) everyone would soon move past the off field stuff once the football started; and so it has proved. It’s always the case — even when the off field discussions are as intensive as they were before this tournament.

Football is the greatest sport on the planet.
It’s always the winner in the end.
 
[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] good to see you return.

In Islam there are no groups such as gay, straight, bi etc.

This makes perfect sense eg.. A woman been married for 30 years, has 4/5 kids. Her husband leaves or harms her, she then joins a relationship with men. What group is she really? Vice Versa for a man but even more relevant as how can a man have kids, then claim to be gay and only is excited by women? His biological body suggests otherwise.

People have been put into groups because it legitimises their actions. In fact it goes further, it gives them empathy and special treatment. Along with breaking up of families, single mothers, kids not knowing who is the real dad, Stds these labels are not helping but increasing the problems.
 
shaykh said:
I'm like a lot of people sick and tired of hearing about LGBT stuff during this World Cup...

The rhetoric has been self centred...'I can't go', 'I have to stay in the closet', 'I can't express myself'...I,I,I,I,I...it has little to do with Qatari's and all to do with English people demanding they be able to act as they want abroad...

So as mentioned prior much of the rhetoric during this World Cup has been about LGBT rights but with little actual focus on Qatari's themselves...

One very interesting read is Joseph Massad...a contemporary of Edward Said who wrote 'Desiring Arabs' which posits some very interesting ideas...

The idea that sexuality isn't viewed in a universal fashion. Hetero-homo binaries are a Western creation which are now being imposed on the Middle East. The concept of orientation never existed there...

So whilst say men would have sex with other men, there was no orientation or identity attached. It is an act rather than forming identity.

He produces accounts from Western academics and journalists who find this lack of sexual identity confusing and thus in need of remedy...The idea that sexual behaviour can exist without a defined orientation made no sense within a Western worldview.

And while the actions themselves are prohibited in a religious sense for the most part historically behaviour hasn't been clamped down in the Middle East. The huge number of travelogues by Gay Western sex tourists helps illustrate that.

However where the situation has changed is the sociopolitical identification of these practices with the Western identity of gayness and the publicness that these gay-identified men seek. This is what has led to a backlash.

'By inciting discourse about homosexuals where none existed before, they are in fact heterosexualising a world that is being forced to be fixed by a Western binary'

By forcing the concept of heterosexuality you also then get homosexuality as an imposed category. This ironically has led to a reactionary homophobia that didn't exist before, because homosexuality as an identity didn't exist. States and groups also now adopt these categories where they identify, categorise and repress homosexuals as a response to these impositions.

As this imposition of a sexual category becomes viewed as Western and an attack on the existing culture.

And this can be seen with the pile on during this World Cup. The attempt by nations to force Qatar to view everything as Western Europeans do as part of their 'civilising' mission.

And herein lies a concluding question? Does this benefit the people it intends to save?

Much is made of those who do want to affirm their orientation, to be visible. But what of those who don't. What of those who engage in same sex relations who don't want to organise their identity based on the homo-hetero binary?
Is this another form of cultural imperialism or is the Western conception of sexuality universal?

At the very least it's worth hearing an Arab viewpoint on LGBT issues because we certainly haven't had any of that during this World Cup.
Click to expand...

To me it appears that the accounts of homosexual behaviour in arab/muslim world that you mention such as those of Edward side, are just the theories of those that want to find a middle ground with the west.

Sure you might find a few people indulging in these acts but they are fringe and there is no wider societal acceptance of this behaviour.

Homosexuality both as an 'identity' as the westerners want it to be or a physical act with no orientation that you describe in your OP are equally unacceptable to the majority of people in those countries.
 
The percentage of gay people in the entire world is the same . In the west they are more open ( now) in the conservative countries it’s done behind closed doors. That’s the only difference. Now about acceptance. Pre islam in the subcontinent homosexuality was not a issue like today. You just have to look at old temples, art, literature.
 
SalimBhai said:
The percentage of gay people in the entire world is the same . In the west they are more open ( now) in the conservative countries it’s done behind closed doors. That’s the only difference. Now about acceptance. Pre islam in the subcontinent homosexuality was not a issue like today. You just have to look at old temples, art, literature.
Click to expand...

lol. How did you get to this conclusion, which survey have you seen? Also what is the %, please do tell?
 
Yes certainly the west wants complete domination over the Middle East in all aspects. They know full well that all communities and countries have there own rules and regulations. Like many thing are not allowed in the west similarly in Muslim countries homosexuality is not allowed. The west has no problem with detention centre's in Australia or the UK where refugee's are beaten up and starved but cries foul play over gay and lesbian rights in the Middle East. They want to kill the indigenous culture of the Gulf region so that it mirrors that of the west.
 
It's not just about forcing the LGBTQ agenda on Qatar and other Middle Eastern countries. They are pushing this LGBTQ agenda everywhere, from movies to video games to tv shows to music. Even our kids are not safe anymore because they are pushing their agenda in cartoons as well. Honestly, it is getting pathetic and I know a lot of people who aren't even Muslims that are sick to death of this pro LGBTQ agenda.
 
Soon they will be forcing same sex marriages. We will be told that this is to control world population.
 
Pew research has a huge report on it. I dont know if I can post it here. I did post before and got deleted . It is 37 pages long and goes in detail.
 
PakLFC said:
Soon they will be forcing same sex marriages. We will be told that this is to control world population.
Click to expand...
Do you mean forcing gay people to get married? or To straight people to get married? You are free to get married. Nobody is forcing gay people to marry each other. What do you mean?
 
PakLFC said:
Yes certainly the west wants complete domination over the Middle East in all aspects. They know full well that all communities and countries have there own rules and regulations. Like many thing are not allowed in the west similarly in Muslim countries homosexuality is not allowed. The west has no problem with detention centre's in Australia or the UK where refugee's are beaten up and starved but cries foul play over gay and lesbian rights in the Middle East. They want to kill the indigenous culture of the Gulf region so that it mirrors that of the west.
Click to expand...

And what do they gain by that?
 
SalimBhai said:
The percentage of gay people in the entire world is the same . In the west they are more open ( now) in the conservative countries it’s done behind closed doors. That’s the only difference. Now about acceptance. Pre islam in the subcontinent homosexuality was not a issue like today. You just have to look at old temples, art, literature.
Click to expand...

Pre-Islam would be Hindu. So you have to ask the question why is there still such a reluctant attitude among the Hindus to promote homosexuality as they do in the west. By promote I mean advocate equality and teach it is a fine way of life in schools.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Pre-Islam would be Hindu. So you have to ask the question why is there still such a reluctant attitude among the Hindus to promote homosexuality as they do in the west. By promote I mean advocate equality and teach it is a fine way of life in schools.
Click to expand...
Well when the English came to the subcontinent they outlawed homosexuality. Also when islam came before them it also had impacted the attitudes. Also I dont think the west is promoting homosexuality. They are asking for equal rights for them. Equal rights for everyone. I dont know if you can promote and get more members for homosexuality.
 
SalimBhai said:
The percentage of gay people in the entire world is the same . In the west they are more open ( now) in the conservative countries it’s done behind closed doors. That’s the only difference. Now about acceptance. Pre islam in the subcontinent homosexuality was not an issue like today. You just have to look at old temples, art, literature.
Click to expand...

You’re saying the percentage is same in San Francisco vs. say a Karachi, Nairobi, or Lucknow?
 
San fransisco maybe no. Just gay people flock to it. But according to Pew research overall the gay population is the same all over the world. 2.8 to 3.7 percent I think .
 
SalimBhai said:
San fransisco maybe no. Just gay people flock to it. But according to Pew research overall the gay population is the same all over the world. 2.8 to 3.7 percent I think .
Click to expand...

Why are you assuming Pew is right? We all know how agenda-driven and biased these researches are.

It seems like you want non-western countries to embrace homosexuality.
 
SalimBhai said:
Well when the English came to the subcontinent they outlawed homosexuality. Also when islam came before them it also had impacted the attitudes. Also I dont think the west is promoting homosexuality. They are asking for equal rights for them. Equal rights for everyone. I dont know if you can promote and get more members for homosexuality.
Click to expand...

I already said by promote I meant advocate equality and teach it as a fine way of life in schools, you don't need to repeat this back to me. I think you can't defend Hindus for being reluctant to do so when they are (quite rightly) adopting many other practices from the English, and before that, the Mughals.

You brought up the pre-Islam angle into this, so now you should have a better example of why India has been so reluctant to embrace homosexuality and advocate it in schools as we do in the west. Why is it always someone else's fault when it comes to Hindus?
 
Mamoon said:
The dominant culture has always tried to impose itself on the weaker one, we have seen this throughout the history.

This is why after the 300 years of interaction and exchange between the British and the Indian subcontinent, the latter is a lot more influenced by the British culture than the former.

We started speaking English, wearing western clothes, watching western film, tv etc., adopting western education & laws etc., and all the British took from us (culturally) was food, spices etc.

The West have done the same in the ME, and they have been largely successful but the rich Gulf states are too rich and independent for them.
Click to expand...

Shaming and imposing the dominant culture on the weaker and conquered people happened and will always happen.

If the West was so considered about LGBT rights, then they should have boycotted the FIFA WC in Qatar longtime ago. Not make a drama after reaching Qatar to play their matches.
 
Champ_Pal said:
Shaming and imposing the dominant culture on the weaker and conquered people happened and will always happen.

If the West was so considered about LGBT rights, then they should have boycotted the FIFA WC in Qatar longtime ago. Not make a drama after reaching Qatar to play their matches.
Click to expand...

When England hosted the World Cup in 1966 homosexuality was illegal.
 
SalimBhai said:
The percentage of gay people in the entire world is the same . In the west they are more open ( now) in the conservative countries it’s done behind closed doors. That’s the only difference. Now about acceptance. Pre islam in the subcontinent homosexuality was not a issue like today. You just have to look at old temples, art, literature.
Click to expand...

I don't think people in sub-continent have any issue with homosexuality. Problem is new weird gender pronouns, being openly sexual even in front of kids and making rest of us bend to their reality. If a straight couple wants to protect their own child from this LGBTQ menace, their decision should be respected instead of being called names like homophobic.
 
SalimBhai said:
Do you mean forcing gay people to get married? or To straight people to get married? You are free to get married. Nobody is forcing gay people to marry each other. What do you mean?
Click to expand...

I mean traditional male-female marriages will be banned. We will be told that this is necessary to control the world population.
 
sweep_shot said:
Why are you assuming Pew is right? We all know how agenda-driven and biased these researches are.

It seems like you want non-western countries to embrace homosexuality.
Click to expand...

Pew research is usually quite reliable, but I doubt they did a study regarding % of homosexuals in many different countries of the world.
 
PakLFC said:
To kill the Islamic culture and belief system by replacing it with complete westernization.
Click to expand...
That’s so far fetched . Why kill the Islamic culture. What are they afraid off?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
SalimBhai said:
That’s so far fetched . Why kill the Islamic culture. What are they afraid off?
Click to expand...

You are going around in circles here. One of the very few things resisting the complete westernization of the world are Islamic values ad culture. The west is afraid off everything that Islam stands for as it challenges the rampant atheist values off the west.
 
SalimBhai said:
That’s so far fetched . Why kill the Islamic culture. What are they afraid off?
Click to expand...

Some traditions are worth more than behaviours historically associated with ills, literally.

Unfortunately the Islamic world has become misogynistic when its cause is cultural as opposed to islamic. Now everything is conflated in the name of the corrupted rainbow
 
"Vital Step Toward Equality": Joe Biden Signs Same-Sex Marriage Bill Into Law

US President Joe Biden on Tuesday signed into law a bill granting federal protections to same-sex marriage, with a large crowd of guests gathered at the White House to celebrate the legislative milestone.

Biden -- who as vice president took a public stand in favor of same-sex unions well before they became legal throughout the United States in a 2015 Supreme Court decision -- touted the landmark law as a rights victory.

"America takes a vital step toward equality, for liberty and justice, not just for some, but for everyone," he said during the signing ceremony Tuesday afternoon.

After the US Supreme Court -- now significantly more conservative -- overturned longstanding abortion rights last June, lawmakers from the left and right came together to prevent any subsequent move to curb same-sex marriage rights.

The legislation's final adoption by Congress last week marked a rare show of bipartisanship in deeply divided Washington.

In celebration, Biden gathered with a group of Republican and Democratic lawmakers on the White House grounds, along with advocates and plaintiffs in marriage equality cases across the country.

Tammy Baldwin, the first openly gay US senator, said she was "overcome with joy" at the signing of the law, which she helped draft in Congress.

"Today, we are making history and making a difference for millions of Americans," she said in a statement.

"We are telling the millions of same-sex and interracial couples that we see them and we respect them."

- Growing support -

The legislation, White House spokesperson Karine Jean-Pierre said Monday, "will give peace of mind to millions of LGBTQI+ and interracial couples who will finally be guaranteed the rights and protections to which they and their children are entitled."

Jean-Pierre herself made history as the first openly gay White House press secretary.

Hundreds of thousands of same-sex couples have married since the Supreme Court's 2015 decision legalizing the unions throughout the United States.

Public acceptance has grown dramatically in recent decades, with polls now showing a strong majority of Americans supporting same-sex marriage.

But some conservatives and the religious right remain opposed.

The new legislation, known as the Respect for Marriage Act, does not mandate states to legalize same-sex marriage but does require them to recognize a marriage so long as it was valid in the state where it was performed.

It repeals previous legislation defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman, and also protects interracial couples by requiring states to recognize legal marriages without regard to "sex, race, ethnicity or national origin."

In the House of Representatives, 39 Republicans joined a united Democratic majority in supporting the bill, while 169 Republicans voted against. It was previously adopted in the evenly split Senate by 61 votes to 36.

- 'Who do you love?' -

Jean-Pierre said Monday that Biden believes "there is much more work to be done to protect LGBTQI+ individuals across the country."

She recalled that the 80-year-old Democrat was among the first American political leaders to publicly support same-sex unions at the highest levels of government.

Back in 2012, Biden caused a stir by candidly declaring his support for same-sex unions -- when Barack Obama's White House was still looking for the best way to make the president's position official as he sought reelection to a second term.

Following his own presidential election in 2020, Biden tapped Pete Buttigieg to become his transport secretary -- the first openly gay person to be confirmed by the Senate to a cabinet post.

And beyond the issue of marriage, the Biden administration has taken a strong stance in support of LGBTQ rights -- notably towards the transgender community whose push for greater rights has become a political flashpoint in the country.

The administration has introduced gender-neutral passports -- allowing people who identify neither as male nor female to select the gender "X" -- and it lifted a ban on transgender people serving in the armed forces, introduced under Biden's predecessor Donald Trump.

NDTV
 
Cultural imperialism has always been part of human history. Winners impose their culture on losers. Everything about the losers changes after that including their language, dietary habits, clothing, rituals and even genetics.

The LGBT is just the latest addition.which is trying to impose their will on the entire world. Due to social media, the opponents are expressing their outrage lot more easily.

If this lgbt thing had come a few centuries ago and our ancestors had accepted it, we would all be celebrating LGBT festivals and berating the tyranny of the naysayers.
 
Champ_Pal said:
Cultural imperialism has always been part of human history. Winners impose their culture on losers. Everything about the losers changes after that including their language, dietary habits, clothing, rituals and even genetics.

The LGBT is just the latest addition.which is trying to impose their will on the entire world. Due to social media, the opponents are expressing their outrage lot more easily.

If this lgbt thing had come a few centuries ago and our ancestors had accepted it, we would all be celebrating LGBT festivals and berating the tyranny of the naysayers.
Click to expand...

The Hindus might, and inshallah perhaps they will have festivals in the not too distant future.

Muslims wouldn't accept it back then, and they still won't now. I am not saying this is right or wrong, it's just a statement of what is true.
 
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